What religion are you? (curious, considering the anti-fundie posts)

[StellaBlue]

Poll question: What religion are you? (curious, considering the anti-fundie posts)

There have been a lot of anti-fundie/anti-evangelical, even anti-religion posts lately. Fine by me, I'm an atheist. But I was wondering, in light of this, what are the religious leaning of DUers? I have seen some threads in which Christians took issue with the rampant Christian bashing, for instance, and other times when Christians were told by non-Christians to, basically, get their people in order or else suffer being painted with a broad brush.

I am not asking for people to respond specifically, unless they want to or feel the need to expand on the categories I have listed below. I am just interested in how the numbers will play out, not in encouraging anyone to publicly proclaim their religion or justify it.

I apologize for not being able to list *every* religion. I have listed the ones I assumed would be most popular among Americans.

Thanks!

[yorkiemommie1]

1. baptized catholic

educated catholic. estranged from the church.

[StellaBlue]

2. If I do say so myself

:kick:

[tjdee]

3. I'm Christian up in this piece..... I'm placing a bet says most are atheis

ts/agnostics. I kind of feel those two categories should be separate.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

8. I agree..big difference in the two

[TallahasseeGrannie]

10. I am Episcopalian from birth.

And the culture of the Church has played an enormous role in my life. There is no way to overstate its significance. Which is why the anti-Christian threads hurt.

[PassingFair]

111. The difference is one of semanics, IMHO

An agnostic is an atheist with low self-esteem....

[bananas]

9. Good point - why are atheists and agnostics one category?

[tx_dem41]

48. I agree as well.

Atheist here..and quite sure I'm not an Agnostic.

[heidler1]

93. If you look at deffinition 4 of religion it would seem to indicate that

Atheism (which includes me) is more of a religion compaired to Agnostic except for the part where humans just can't know for certain one way or the other so that would be the Agnostic principal. Where as the Atheist says he/she is sure. However because they both tend to doubt the God issue to one degree or another, they are pretty similar.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
religion

religion (ri-lij??n) noun
Abbr. rel., relig.

1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, a principle, or an activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition Copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from Lernout & Hauspie Speech Products N.V., further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.

[scarlet_owl]

4. I'm Catholic.

[bananas]

5. You should add Taoist

[BlueJazz]

6. Atheism is not a Religion.

Baptisted Catholic
Stopped believing in Sky Fairies at 9 years old. :)

[hlthe2b]

7. While Christianity is extremely diverse: the main dichotomy now

is probably no longer Catholic versus Protestant, but rather
Literalist RW Hypocrit versus all others.... :shrug:

I hate what the RW XIANS have done to the perception of Christianity.... One should never feel embarrassed to say you are Christian, but I suspect many many DO feel that way since the rise in political power of these fundie wingnuts.

[teenagebambam]

11. I second that

I would imagine that most Fundies would not consider me (gay, baptized Lutheran, currently employed by the Episcopal Church) a "real" Christian...and the feeling is mutual.

[DaveColorado]

17. me

I was raised Catholic, though I never believed or found anything positive in it.

In fact I view it as mostly a negative.

I consider myself agnostic, with some spiritual leanings in certain areas. I am open to the idea that we are all part of a greater consciousness.

I believe fundamentalism to be the bane of civilized society.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

23. I agree with one caveat

I do know many Literalists who are also kind and forgiving people. In all cases I understand why they believe the way they do. With some, it is enculturated and with some it is a psychological need to believe in a limited framework of life.

The "Christians" whom I distrust are the ones who believe that they have the right, or even the responsibility to legislate their values.

But I don't distrust them any more than I distrust people on the left who spew constant hate and intolerance and even insinuate the necessity for violent solutions to our differences. Same book, different chapters.

[hlthe2b]

59. Yes...agree... I probably should have termed Literalist AND RW

hypocrit.... I don't care if people want to believe in the "literal word, " as long as they don't impose on others... However, those who remain within a church that DOES discriminate or preaches exclusion, hate, or intolerance are just as bad as the leadership in my opinion.

[hunter]

69. This is a very good point...

Although I am often astonished by this, there are "Literalists" I am pleased to call my friends.

I am mostly a very left wing "social justice" Catholic. My favorite hobby is evolutionary biology, and that was my minor in college. You would think I wouldn't get along with any Literalists...

The Literalists who are my friends are the ones who know it is not theirs to judge who will go to hell, and who won't; those who will recognize the planks in their own eyes before they notice speckss in the eyes of their neighbors.

I was thinking about this in Mass today. I think it would be a mistake to believe that the only sheep of Mt 25:31-46 would be Christians. A lot of goats will have called themselves Christians too...

Mt 25:31-46

Jesus said to his disciples:
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory,
and all the angels with him,
he will sit upon his glorious throne,
and all the nations will be assembled before him.
And he will separate them one from another,
as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the king will say to those on his right,
'Come, you who are blessed by my Father.
Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me drink,
a stranger and you welcomed me,
naked and you clothed me,
ill and you cared for me,
in prison and you visited me.’
Then the righteous will answer him and say,
'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you,
or thirsty and give you drink?
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you,
or naked and clothe you?
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
And the king will say to them in reply,
'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did
for one of the least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Then he will say to those on his left,
'Depart from me, you accursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
For I was hungry and you gave me no food,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
a stranger and you gave me no welcome,
naked and you gave me no clothing,
ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
Then they will answer and say,
'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty
or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison,
and not minister to your needs?’
He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you,
what you did not do for one of these least ones,
you did not do for me.’
And these will go off to eternal punishment,
but the righteous to eternal life."

Heh... I'm quoting scripture on DU.

Bring it on.

;)

[StellaBlue]

12. again

I am sorry I could not include EVERY religion - and that's why I put atheist/agnostic together as well as included an other/combination choice.

I am an atheist, and I am not offended! :shrug:

The point was to see how many religious people there are vs. nonreligious and how many Christians vs. other religions.

I have a feeling our demographic breakdown will be quite different from America at large, and certainly from the crimson areas of the USA (like my own state!).

[tjdee]

18. Indeed, but there's a big difference between agnostic/atheist.

One of my friends is not sure if there's a god/gods/higher powers. She is open to the possibility.

An atheist thinks there are no sky fairies, no anything up there but stars.

Big difference, IMO....you'd probably get more agnostics than...say...Buddhists. But I see what you're saying,I think.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

29. I don't believe in sky fairies either.

[wwcsmd]

68. Agnostic here...

I wasn't "bothered" by atheists & agnostics being lumped together, because it's not like it's an uncommon thing. And my personal agnosticism is one of: "Eh"...

As in... I'm just a human, how the hell should I know?! Who am I to say millions of Hindus are wrong? Millions of Buddhists are wrong? Millions of Christians are wrong? Maybe god IS a little blue boy, I mean, millions of Hare Krishnas think so. Etc. etc. etc.

As I was educated, I leaned towards the scientific method... looking for proof... but, sans proof, to me, the only logical answer was to say, "How the hell should I know?" I don't personally understand how SO many people can be SO SURE. But, that's just me, and, to each their own.

But, I did like that several other people here said that agnosticism and atheism were quite different things, because that's what I think too. But, again, I'd voice my 'passion' about this subject with an "Eh!"

To quote the Indigo Girls: "The less I seek my source for some definitive, the closer I am to fine." I found comfort in that, that there are others who have also found life less stressful when they can ACCEPT that there are things we just don't know for sure, and can leave it at that.

Again, that's just me. :)

[PassingFair]

113. There is dispute as to the definitions of atheist and agnostic.

The poll would be AS accurate and reflect the same numbers if the phrase "no religion" had been used.

[bananas]

62. But that's not what you asked.

You should have asked "How religious are you?"
There are people who are very religious about their atheism, they will argue with you til the cows come home that there is no god. Then there are people born whatever and aren't very religious but that will not be reflected in their vote.

[muriel_volestrangler]

78. 'enthusiasm' does not equal 'religion'

People might be willing to argue strongly about all sorts of things, but it does not mean they subscribe to multiple religions.

[Marr]

Raised Babtist, but became an atheist around 23 or so.

That was a long time ago. I've buried my father since then, who was also my best friend in the world. Various family members had told me that I'd come back to the church when I eventually lost someone, but no. Still an atheist.

[bleedingheart]

13. According to many I am not a Christian...because I am Catholic

[alcuno]

Exactly. That's why I voted "other."

My guess is that the anti-fundie posts come from a lot of Catholics.

[bleedingheart]

19. I normally try to refrain from criticizing any religion...

however I have to say that the local religious radio station in our area preaches hate more than it preaches love...

The morning programs are fire and brimstone...

The afternoon programs are..."call and tell us your dirty dirty secrets"...and "we will tell you what a bad boy or girl you are....and lead you to christ".

The evening programs are a variety show of all sorts including all the fundies who call to rat out their Catholic neighbors....

[TallahasseeGrannie]

25. O yuk

the dirty secret show is just sick.

[NanceGreggs]

14. Baptized and raised STRICT Catholic ...

... Catholic school, Catholic youth organizations -- the whole nine yards. I left the church when I was eighteen (and my mother finally gave in and stopped forcing me to attend mass), and coverted to Judiasm in my forties, after many years of studying the religion.

I am not anti-Christian; I am anti-hypocrite. When so-called followers of Christ and his teachings support the policies of an administration that lie, steal, take from the poor to enrich the already wealthy, promote shunning of homosexuals, and turn to the violence of pre-emptive war and the torture of fellow human beings, they are no longer Christians in any sense of the word.

[seabeyond]

15. i am christian, bashing fundies, believe i am responsible getting

my people in order and i dont take anger at christians personally as i am angry with my fellow christians that ignore christs words, also.

[skygazer]

16. I consider myself a Deist, if I have to put a label on it

From a deism website - http://www.deism.com/deism_defined.htm

Deism is defined in Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1941, as: " The doctrine or creed of a Deist." And Deist is defined in the same dictionary as: "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason."

That fits me. And for those who noisily insist that the Founders were all mainstream Christians, they should remember that most of them were Deists, a rather different thing.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

33. I'm interested in your saying

that the Founders were mostly Deists. I have read that here, but this is the first I ever knew of that.

Was "Deism" an accepted stance back then? I was under the impression that it was Christian or "die" back then. Was it perhaps a reaction to the Puritan movement? A repudiation of that level of fundamentalism?

[skygazer]

44. It was known as the Age of Enlightenment

Thomas Jefferson was a Deist, as was Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin, George Washington, Ethan Allen and many others. It was very accepted at that time.

A wave of learning and thought had occurred throughout Europe and in colonial America - actually, it was largely responsible for the Revolution itself as it touched on ideas like human rights and freedoms that had not really been thought about before.

Interesting time and subject. A quick Google of Deism brings up some interesting stuff.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

49. It sounds vaguely familiar, I am embarrassed to say

I probably learned about it in World history 101 in college. But it wasn't as important to me then, I guess.

I'm going to Google it because it frames our whole history in an entirely different way. And frankly, I think it would really surprise some fundamentalists.

Thanks for the enlightenment, no pun intended.

[booksenkatz]

20. As an agnostic, I dislike being lumped in with atheists

I am not remotely an atheist, why am I always lumped in with them? I don't dislike atheists -- my entire family of in-laws are atheists, as are several of my best friends -- but my feelings about "god" are not like theirs. Maybe the broad brush shouldn't bug me, but it does.

There are agnostics like my husband, who believe that we have no way of knowing whether or not there is a god, and they are happy with that. There are agnostics such as myself, who would LOVE to know for a fact whether or not there is some sort of god out there, but we haven't had it proven to us yet. I call us "searching agnostics" because I'm always reading, ruminating, searching for an answer to this burning question.

My atheist relatives and friends have concluded that there is no god, period. They have reached a conclusion with which they are most comfortable. Agnostics have not reached any conclusion either way. The lack of closure bothers some agnostics, and bothers others not at all.

These are just my experiences. But it makes as much sense to me as lumping together Catholics and Baptists.
:crazy:

[StellaBlue]

27. I did lump together Catholics and Baptists

for the purpose of this unscientific survey :)

Personally, I am a 'natural' atheist, I think, in that I never really 'believed' or saw the need to. However, I was brought up in a suffocating Christmas-Easter-churchgoing/hypocritical Southern Baptist/Methodist atmosphere in East Texas. When I went to college, I became Catholic, having adroitly managed to avoid baptism up to that point. I did that for mainly cultural reasons, but, ultimately, my conscience made me leave the Church. So I am an atheist.

I am not trying to offend! I understand LOTS of differnt perspectives; it's hard to condense religious/philosophical experience into about 10 categories!

:)

[booksenkatz]

32. No offense taken!

Hey, you're talkin' to a Fort Worth gal here who went to TCU, LOL!
:hi:

It might have been simpler to ask people to what degree they consider themselves religious...?

By the way, today in a bookstore, my 6-year-old son asked loudly, "What's a 'Bible'?" and you should have seen the heads whip around and the dirty looks! I'm surprised Child Protective Services wasn't called. Actually, I have talked to him a little bit about the Bible, and I do think it's important for children in our culture to have an understanding of Biblical stories; however, I think it is too confusing and violent a book to introduce to him just yet.

[StellaBlue]

36. Good job!

I would LOVE it if my kid said that really loudly in public! AWESOME!

:)

My mom and I were wondering last week while half-way watching the TCU game... what denomination are they? Methodist?

[booksenkatz]

41. They're affiliated with the Disciples of Christ

but the atmosphere of the school during my time (I graduated in '83) was soooooooooooo lax. I was raised a Methodist, and TCU felt pretty Methodist and laid-back. The first week of my freshman year, they held a huge co-ed pajama party... I'm pretty sure Baylor would never have done something like that!

Currently, my son is interested in finding out about Jesus, what with his "birthday" coming up 'n all. I've always told him that people have different beliefs about god, and that as he goes through life, he will see that people will always want him to believe as they do. I've told him that NO ONE, not even a parent, has the right to tell him what to believe. So he knows that while I personally believe that Jesus was a fantastic teacher and revolutionary, there are others, like his grandparents, who believe that Jesus was actually God on Earth. I want him to be totally free to find his own path -- the last thing I want to raise is a dittohead. But so far, he's proving himself to be a hard-core liberal who is still undecided about religion!

[StellaBlue]

45. You are my hero

Can we clone you?

And can I set up a play date between your son and my not-born-yet daughter? haha

[booksenkatz]

55. It is HARD HARD HARD (as * would say), believe me

I think that there is a natural urge for any parent to want their child to hold the same basic beliefs that they do. I have fought back that urge many times! When we talk about *, I force myself to be as objective as possible and to try to tell both sides as best I can. I'll tell him what different groups believe about different situations as best I can. You have to take my word for it on this. Well, lo and behold, there he was in Kindergarten last year, telling a girl that her parents should not have voted for Bush, because he starts illegal wars for no reason! He absolutely abhors war, he has always been a non-violent child. I've tried to explain to him that there are some people who believe we need to be in Iraq, but his feeling about it is not just no, but hell no. And he's just six!! Hmmm, I think we may have a budding activist on our hands.

But truly, I think it's important to fight off that urge and to teach our children to be critical thinkers and not to just spout words they don't understand, whether it be politics or religion or anything else. There's much more satisfaction in seeing your child reach pleasant conclusions on his own, after having seen all of the options! I tend to think he leans more towards religion than I do, and if that happens, I will accept that.

P.S. As a non-violent child he plays very nicely with little girls, so, yes, anytime you're in Michigan, do feel free to pop in for a visit!
:7

[trotsky]

85. You make atheism out to be more than it is.

Do you believe in gods?

A yes or no question. If yes, you're a theist. If no, you're an atheist. If your answer is "I don't know," that's the same as no, because you don't believe.

"Agnostic" is a qualifier. One can be an agnostic theist, or an agnostic atheist. Agnostic simply means that you do not believe something can be truly known.

Don't be scared of the atheist label. Some atheists ("gnostic" atheists or "strong" atheists) actively deny the existence of all gods. But not all do.

[MrSlayer]

21. Agnostic non theistic evolutionist.

Fundies would be funny if they weren't so scary. Sort of like The Chimp.

[kestrel91316]

22. Neopagan ecofeminist with anabaptist/unitarian/UCC leanings.

I divide "christians" into two factions - not the traditional Protestants and Catholics, but rather Christofascists and True Followers of Christ.

By their fruits ye shall know them. Most intelligent folks can readily tell the difference. Jimmy Carter is a TFC. Bush is a CF.

I have zero tolerance for Christofascists.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

40. There is wisdom in your words.

Thanks for eloquently speaking the concept I mangled.

[Bill McBlueState]

100. :)

Of course, your "Christofascists" think they are the "True Followers of Christ" and could quote scriptures extensively to prove their point.

I think it's dangerous to suggest that anyone has a monopoly on truth when that truth comes from ancient books.

[ExclamationPoint]

118. wow that's pretty much me

strike the anabaptist, add "appreciater(hmm,not really a world there) of buddhism"

[joefree1]

24. Pagan

We were here before the apocalyptic ones and we'll be here long after they've "returned" to their respective heavens.

Good riddance.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PaganWarrior/

[ExclamationPoint]

117. I know

and perhaps if the christian hadn't gone on their little crusades and slaughtered us they wouldn't have died of all those illnesses because WE were the ones who knew about all the herbal remedies (not to sound zealoutly self-righteous but you know)

Happy Yule !

[Err]

26. I consider myself a hopeful agnostic.

That means that I hope there is a god or afterlife out there, but I just don't know.

Does that make sense?

[booksenkatz]

34. It does to me Err!

:toast:

[Skittles]

28. christened Church of England

yes INDEED

[jannyk]

35. Me too!!

Though I didn't have much say in the matter at 6 weeks of age.

:hi:

[Skittles]

72. HOWDY JANNYK!

yeah, me mum is a Brit. :D

[blue neen]

30. The fundies are so repulsive and disgusting

that I have been turning away from religion.

I was raised in The United Church of Christ...one of the more liberal denominations.

[Bluzmann57]

31. Religious beliefs are a somewhat private matter

At least that's this persons opinion. There is nothing wrong with having religious beliefs, including fundamentalism, as long as a person doesn't try to force his or her beliefs onto others. We have all had fundies and others try to push their beliefs on us, and most likely, we have all resisted sometimes to the point of rejecting all other beliefs. The constitution guarantees religious freedom, but does not say anything about me, you, or anyone else having to accept another's religion. FYI, I voted "Christian" because that is how I was raised. But others may have other leanings and I accept that. I may not agree, but I do accept it. That should be the American way.

[stepnw1f]

37. I Concur (nt)

[shireen]

38. You forgot to list ...

the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

May you be struck down by one of His al-dente noodly appendages.

[StellaBlue]

53. true

BUT - you know if I had done that, we would have like one vote in each category and 300 in the FSM category! haha

[EstimatedProphet]

39. Christian - Disciples of Christ

http://www.disciples.org/

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

42. I'm a Nontheist, which is different than an Atheist.

If anyone wants a definition, this one is quite good.

[StellaBlue]

52. very good link

Thanks!

I think that actually describes me pretty well, too!

[Bill McBlueState]

101. interesting

"the question of divinity is regarded as irrelevant and meaningless"

That fits me pretty well.

[SaveElmer]

43. Unitarian Universalist...

Technically classified as Christian by some...but that makes it too narrow. There are alot of people in other religious traditions that participate

[tx_dem41]

46. Atheist...but you will NEVER see me attacking Christianity as a

theology on this forum.

[0007]

47. I belong to the Round Church. n/t

[TallahasseeGrannie]

51. I've gotta ask

WHAT IS THE ROUND CHURCH?

[0007]

60. That's the church where the devil can't get ya into a corner.

I was waiting for ya. LOL! :hi:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

61. LOL well you got ME!

Oddly enough, where I grew up in central NJ some denomination built a round church in the late 50's and it was rather a scandal! And a landmark from that day on.

[muriel_volestrangler]

79. It's an old tradition, dating in England from after the First Crusade

Proably influenced by the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem - http://www.christusrex.org/www1/jhs/TSspintr.html .

There are a few left in England, notably the Round Church in Cambridge.

[Noisy Democrat]

50. Catholic

It's interesting. I've been very, very aware lately of the battle going on between Catholicism and Protestant Fundamentalism. Catholics get along fine with some Protestants, but Fundamentalism is a whole other ball of wax. So I was assuming that I would get to click "Catholic" specifically -- I guess I've gotten used to the Zogby poll, where you can indicate Catholic or Protestant -- and was surprised to see that we're all lumped together. I think it'd be more interesting to see what the breakdown is. Then again, different Protestants might want to be able to separate themselves out from the Fundamentalists, so I don't know where you'd draw the line.

[StellaBlue]

56. exactly

and should I also separate Orthodox and Reform Jews? and Theravada and Mahayana Buddhists? Etc etc etc

I found it interesting (and I actually confess, I LIKE it a bit), that, when I was Catholic, I could say I was 'Catholic' as opposed to 'Christian'. Pretty sick, huh? Considering the Catholic Church has exited longer, and has a longer doctrinal history, than any of these crazy fundamentalist denominations. Not that Catholicism has a monopoly on Christianity (maybe you think they do, if you ARE Catholic, though... haha... see, this is where this gets thorny! :)).

Anyway, I liked that I could follow the teachings of Jesus and be part of that community but not have to associate myself with the fundies. I obviously have my own issues with the Church, but I would take them over the fundies ANY day. I still respect a lot of their positions (e.g. on 'intelligent' design), and a lot of individual theologians and preists and nuns.

[Andrea]

70. Interesting poll, but

I think by having a catch-all "Christian" category you are going to miss out on a lot of data. I am a Deist by nature, but was raised Presbyterian. When I was still under the influence of my parents, I identified myself as Presbyterian, but I would never, ever have called myself "Christian", nor would anyone in my family have done so.

People that called themselves "Christian", even in the 60s and 70s, were fundamentalist types. Non-fundamentalist Christians generally refer to themselves by their specific denomination because they don't want to be mistaken for fundamentalists. At least that has been my experience throughout my life - whether Episcopalian, Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, or whatever, a non-fundamentalist would never refer to herself as "Christian". But a born-again, fundamentalist type would grab that label right away.

If I were still considering myself Presbyterian (though I never really believed in Christ at all, it was just the way I was raised), had the option been available in this poll I might have labeled myself Protestant, or main-stream Protestant (or, obviously, Presbyterian), but none of the categories you listed is a category I would have identified myself as. In other words, I think the way you have constructed this poll leaves most main-stream Christians with no category that they would see as applying to them.

Of course, they could choose Other/Combination, which is what I am choosing now.

[muriel_volestrangler]

81. Weird - the exact opposite of my experience

I would say that all the categories you list always call themselves 'Christian' - though the more spiteful ones might occasionally exclude some of the others. Even the Mormons, who believe in a significant divne revelation after Jesus, consider themselves Christian.

I think the attitude you describe is the equivalent of, when you ask someone their nationality, they answer "Texan" rather than "American". Only a few eccentrics who are trying to make a point would bother to say it.

[Andrea]

83. They would agree that technically they are among the

Christian denominations, but wouldn't call themselves that. It's not like your Texas/American analogy. It's not about being eccentric, it's about assuring that you aren't mistaken for being fundamentalist. If someone calls themselves "Christian", they consider themselves fundamentalists. People that belong to mainstream denominations don't want to be seen that way. They specify "Methodist" or whatever, to show that they are not fundamentalists, without having to disavow their faith. The term "Christian" was long ago co-opted by evangelicals and fundamentalists, so unfortunately it is not available to members of more mainstream Christian faiths.

Think about it this way: if you meet someone and they tell you they are Christian, you brace yourself for the coming proselytizing and try to figure out how to get out of the situation gracefully (unless you happen to agree). If you meet someone and they tell you they are Methodist, you say "oh" and go on to the next subject.

[muriel_volestrangler]

88. 'Denomination' is the correct word

Their religion is Christianity; their denomination Methodist, or whatever. If someone is asked to describe themselves, yes, they might say 'Methodist' (it does convey more information); but to deny they are Christians, as you said they would, would be very strange. That's why I think the Texan/American analogy is valid - ask someone (in an international situation) where they're from, and 'Texan' would be a valid answer; ask them their nationality, and give them a list of choices including 'American', and if they answered 'other', because they're Texan, you'd think they were an arsehole.

Take the entries in my thesaurus: under 'religion' (subheading 'religious faith'), it has Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Baha'ism, Hinduism, etc. No mention of Protestant, Catholic, Methodist etc. Those appear under 'orthodoxy'.

If someone tells me they are Christian, I assume they believe Jesus was divine. It gives me a basic idea of their beliefs and likely ethics. If they tell me they're Methodist, I assume they want me to know something about their particular habits on a Sunday, which would actually worry me more, because they might be about to suggest I join them, or they're going to defend a particular position of their church. It's the phrase 'born-again' that would have me eyeing the exits.

[StellaBlue]

91. not an arsehole

When I was living abroad and people would ask where I was from, I would always say Texas. But Europeans have some conception of what that is, and it would not have worked if I had said Iowa or somesuch. But if someone asked my nationality I would say American.

[muriel_volestrangler]

92. And that's the point - Christianity is a religion

and when presented with a list of religions, including 'Christian' but not any of the denominations, saying 'other' because you insist on denying you're a Christian would be perverse.

[Andrea]

98. This might be futile...

I'm telling you my experience and you're telling me I'm wrong. I do know my experience better than you.

The point is, if someone says "Christian" that is tantamount to saying "born-again". Those types have co-opted that word.

It's neither perverse nor bizarre to not want to be mistaken for a born-again, evangelical, fundamentalist "Christian".

[muriel_volestrangler]

102. Not necessarily futile

I recognise that it's your experience - that's why my posts started off with "the exact opposite of my experience".

But I did give examples of the normal use of the terms, by referring to a thesaurus. You, however, did seem to be asserting, until this post, that your experience is what is typical - and said 'you' when describing a reaction to talking to a 'Christian' and 'Methodist', while I said 'I'.

I would also point out that far more people have voted 'Christian' than 'other' in the poll (and 'other' includes people that neither of us would call Christian). I do not believe that there are many fundamentalist Christians on DU. There are plenty of Catholics, Methodists, Episcopalians and so on. I think they are the people who have voted 'Christian'. DU names its groups "Catholic and Orthodox Christians", "Christian Liberals/Progressive Peoples of Faith". I think all the groups are happy to call themselves Christian - indeed, the main complaint in this area on DU is that atheists say "Christians" have done something bad, and Catholics, Methodists etc. then complain that they are Christians, and don't think like that at all, and ask the atheists to stop saying "Christian" when they mean "fundamentalist" - eg this thread.

[StellaBlue]

90. hehehehe

guilty

[StellaBlue]

89. Bizarre

So now 'Christians' don't want to be called 'Christians'? That is NOT my problem. You either are one or you aren't one. YOu said in your post you don't believe in Jesus. Therefore, by definition, you aren't one. Regardless of your upbringing.

:shrug:

[Andrea]

99. I'm not saying it's your problem,

I'm saying that I know a lot of people who belong to mainstream denominations that would NOT want to click on Christian because they would not want to identify themselves as a "born-again" type. Looking at your list, they might choose "other", or more likely, just not vote rather than put that label on themselves.

It is a charged word. Evangelicals are glad to be called that, others it is like fingernails on a chalkboard.

Whatever.

[beam me up scottie]

54. Born atheist.

Never was anything else.

Don't believe in gods, don't deny any and don't claim there are none.

[readmylips]

57. Human, Catholic-Christian by birth and culture....

who cares.

[PatrioticLeftie]

58. Born Catholic, now free-thinking agnostic n/t

[Qibing Zero]

63. Well, if you must know, I'm 'anti-religion': it's a scourge upon humanity.

My inner frenchman notes that whenever he looks to the stars, he sees the failure of humanity to explore and come together for the benefit of all.

I would probably fit under some kind of agnostic category though, simply because I realize just how little we know being limited so by our human experience (as well as religion ;)). I just don't see a reason to assert anything that religions do, and in this day and age it seems futile to still be worshipping images in our minds in hopes that our lives will recieve some sort of benefit. Honestly, if it were not so much of a common occurance in daily life, the thought would hardly come to mind. I don't think I could be called a nontheist either though, because I can't rule out that the question itself won't be a prudent one at some point in the future. Also, some of the advanced 'proofs' for the nonexistance of an all-knowing deity I've read are quite interesting.


Of course, this discussion could continue on forever...



I think most of us here who are 'anti-religion' are just tired of the lies constantly spread about us being oh-so immoral, when in reality most times it's the exact opposite.

[LoZoccolo]

64. To the "get your people in order or suffer being painted" people.

Are you white?

Male?

Oh.

People who could apply the broad brush have kept it off of you plenty. An appropriate response would be to do the same toward others, and get off this transparently manipulative tactic yourself.

[StellaBlue]

65. BRAVO

indeed

[CatholicEdHead]

66. Born, raised, and still am Catholic

of course to many Fundies I would not fit the "Christian" description.

[Mythsaje]

67. I'm a pantheist/humanist...

Usually marked as "other." LOL

[darkmaestro019]

71. I consider myself a Satanist, if I had to put a label on it.

Left-hand path. I’m firmly not LaVeyan; LaVeyans are atheists and it drives me insane that people assume you're LaVeyan when you use the S-word. ; )

I like aspects of Traditional and Luciferian and Setian, but there is too much in any denomination I’ve found that I can’t get behind for me to choose an established LHP church. I do believe there were or are actual beings, though I suspect we’ve got all the names and a lot of the events hopelessly muddled over history.

I do not know if they are still with us or somewhere we cannot reach, or mortal creatures who have become legends. They might even be personified images from human consciousness. It doesn’t matter to me that I don’t know. I’ve read every religious text, research paper, web site, and essay I can find, tracing the evolution of each deity and the correlations across time and location. I’m firmly on the side of all the “gods” that Judeo-Christianity broad-brushes as demons and devils, whether they’re anti-slavery angels, anti-slavery aliens, or characters in a long and continually evolving story we tell ourselves. I'm firmly against the abusive psychotic fuck described in the Old Testament and clearly worshipped by the subgroup of Christianity most people call "the fundies."

And speaking of broad-brushing; I’m not in the least against those who are right-hand path, whether Wiccan-style white-lighters or the more evolved and liberal forms of Christianity, or any other RHP set of beliefs. There is no light without darkness, no summer without winter, and as has been said of many dichotomies, an angel cannot fly with only one wing. However, I am firmly and shamelessly anti-fundy. I’m firmly against ANY religion or school of thought that seeks to impose totality. Absolutism is unnatural; unbridled creation in any form is a cancer. Absolutism in ME is just as wrong as in others, and I'm trying, as I think I discussed with Patchuli someplace here, NOT to refer negatively to "Christians" without bothering to say WHICH Christians I mean.

And it isn't fair to insist that they "control their own" any more than it's fair that I put up with UNBELIEVABLE amounts of shit by people who think all Satanists kill cats and desecrate graveyards. All Christians are not responsible for the revolting actions and beliefs of some Christians. That's as awful as assuming all black people are criminals, or all gay people flaming crossdressing lisping femmes.

How am I supposed to control usually teenaged, usually brainless fucks who are getting this FROM the accusers as how a Satanist should act? How are Christians like Patchuli and Cindy Sheehan and Spong supposed to control Falwell? Some kind of nifty shock-collar?

Incidentally, I don’t believe in "sky fairies" either, or “magic” or any other sort of “poof” sort of powers from any being. Whatever happened, and is still happening, can be understood by science.

There. Confusing enough? And I’m almost thirty. I’ve been LHP since I was about twelve. It is not a phase. : )

[PerpetualWinter]

77. On many levels I'm in the same mindframe...

I've been left hand path since about 14, but not consciously until I was 19.

[darkmaestro019]

96. : ) Nice to meet you. I suspected there were a few

"closeted" here and there around here--based on screen name choice. I can't imagine real, philosophical LHP sorts being Repugs. Too restrictive and far, far too theocratic.

[PerpetualWinter]

104. Yeah, I'm not exactly "closeted" though...

never will be. I'm actually kind of a public target of the religious groups on our campus. Of course, I do have radio shows and I'm pretty damn blasphemous on them (of course, they don't know how much its just a show).

[darkmaestro019]

106. : ) I meant closeted, in the sense that

it takes more than a religious skirmish to get a declaration of allegiance out of them in a thread--but yeah, I'm pretty easy to identify at several dozen paces IRL too. It's not as bad up here in the Midwest but in the South it got me grabbed and attacked in public a few times, multiple objects thrown at me from moving and stationary cars--(applause) for your radio show...that does me a lot of good to know something like that exists.

[muriel_volestrangler]

82. A bit confusing, or maybe just not detailed enough

If you don't believe in "magic" or "poof" powers (I like that wording), what distinguishes the beings you believe did exist, or do exist, from humans? In what form did/do they exist, if it can be understood by science? And do you also believe in a 'supreme creator' - if not, why take your name of self-description from traditions that do?

Just a friendly enquiry - I don't think I've met your type of belief before. :-)

[hunter]

87. My mom would probably say...

"That's nice, dear. Pass the cranberries."

[darkmaestro019]

95. I'd pass them to her and compliment something about the dinner : ) (nt)

[darkmaestro019]

94. If you ever meet any of my type of belief, let me know, lol

because I'm one of the very few I've found--re, my problem with established traditions. "Satan" means "the accuser" and that's the reason that I like that term. I'm not keen on all the behaviors/beliefs of the source cultures for most of English but refusing to use English is hardly a reasonable solution to that. I haven't found any other word for this that contains as much linguistic and imaginative power, and I really like the kind of subtext that Lucifer's "sin" was "I will not serve" I really fucking detest being called a Satan worshipper--I do not worship ANYTHING or ANYONE and that's essentially the core of what BEING a Satanist means to me.

I like the Sumerian pantheon a lot; in an attempt to get beyond historical revisionism I went back to the oldest myths we know of. I can't seem to find a word for their religion; I guess it was probably called "the religion" right about then (lol) and the point of language is to communicate information--if I use a word nobody has ever heard of to be cool I'm accomplishing nothing.

Frankly I suspect the gods were what we would call aliens; either that, or we're extremely, extremely wrong about how long there have been civilizations here and how far their technology had come. I think Sitchin has a few points and a few vastly, vastly fucked up conclusions from not enough data. I look for consistencies along the myth-threads, and they ALL seem to be telling the same basic story. One camp wanted to enslave lower life forms; one camp wanted them to have the same right to grow and evolve that the gods had. The serpent/Eden/apple thing is a beautiful metaphor for this decision, and is another reason I like "Satanist" as a term. More a political party than a religion. : )

That's true of most nonfiction-archaeology-mythology studies. It's too long ago, too far away, and too fragmented. Nobody is ever going to have it right.

And I think the entire system runs on the basic principles we call evolution--but that it can be interfered with by beings above us, just as we've interfered with different breeding techniques with domesticated animals and cultivated plants. That doesn't give these creatures the right to enslave us--any more than it gives us the "right" to enslave sheep or chickens. I have no idea how it started, but if there is a supreme creator, he/she/it is so far beyond us that any kind of interaction with that force is meaningless. Entry-level creatures like us do not wander up to the CEO for cuddles and advice, lol. But I think whatever CEO there is, it began, as a lowly creature like we are. I see all this as a training ground--evolution on an unimaginable scale. I think we--Earth creatures, not just humanoids--will be the new CEOs, if we don't flunk out.

All the beings described in all the religions seem to be very local--concerned with this solar system and locality at the very most. It's political and tribal squabbles on a grander scale than just Earth, is what I basically think.

[Maat]

73. I'm a Religious Scientist.

I also visit my local UU church.

I'm a universalist, who honors all spiritual paths; I'm not a Christian, but I support my liberal Christian friends wholeheartedly.

[OneBlueSky]

74. when Woody Guthrie was being checked into the hospital . . .

the admitting clerk asked him a bunch of questions, one of which was "Religion?" . . .

to which Woody replied "All" . . .

"Oh, Mr. Guthrie," said the clerk, somewhat taken aback, "I can't put 'All' on the form!" . . .

"Then just put 'None'", Woody replied . . .

and that's kinda how I feel about religion . . .

[NMMNG]

75. Atheist

I don't deny that god(s) exist, I simply don't believe. I'm also a staunch believer in individual religious freedom, except when that freedom impinges on the rights of others. Hence my utter contempt for fundamentalism/evangelism. The practice of people trying to force their religion on others and/or instill it into a nation's laws pushes my buttons in the worst way.

[PerpetualWinter]

76. I'm agnostic with Satanic leanings...

I do live a very Satanic lifestyle, however I am not a Satanist as I do not feel the need to dedicate my life to the ritual and other work that goes with being a Satanist.

[darkmaestro019]

107. Ritual? Work? : )

Says who? LaVey, or the Setians? (lol) Some of the Setian writings move me to tears, but anytime I poke an actual page of their actual members I find the sort of people I spent most of my life trying not to hang around. I don't think I could keep a straight face among these people--and I don't think I could tell a group of Setians from a group of SCA or a group of White-Wolfers. (sigh)

I'm not chasing you, I swear, but that's the first time I ever encountered this particular caveat. I tend to think ritual magick-type behaviors are a little like using scratch paper to do math--sometimes helpful but hardly necessary.

[Talismom]

80. Secular-humanist peacenic Jewish n/t

[kwassa]

84. Pan-religionist

as I think that all religions are the same path expressed in different ways, the ultimate end being a mystical experience of God.

[LiberalPersona]

86. I am

an agnostic atheist.

[catmother]

97. raised catholic -- catholic school the whole bit. stopped going to

church when my mom stopped forcing me (i was about 16). but i would say i officially gave it up when i was about 21.

now i lean towards buddhism.

[NAO]

103. I am an former fundy Xtian, now atheist

Raised in a fundy Baptist church, believed every word in the Bible was the absolutely infallible word of god, accepted Jesus as my personal savior hundreds of times, etc.

About age 19 got hold of the writings of Robert Ingersoll and Thomas Paine. That was the end of that.

Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason - Online
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/index.shtml

Works of Robert Ingersoll - Online
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/index.shtml

Evolve Fish - Your One-Stop Shop for Freethought Materials
http://www.evolvefish.com

[Goldensilence]

105. good question

while i have been leading towards buddhism all my life...I was born and rasied catholic... my CCD teachers weren't exacly pleased when i brought up the idea of reincarnation. I like predominately the zen school of thought as well of some aspects of the the others schools. One of the most intersting things I have found myself is one school of thought as prescribed for a situation. Of course this is nothing new.To me the dharma simply speaks for itself.

However, I would like to take moment to reflect upon the great diversity expressed in this thread. I think more then anything sometimes we are all very curious about the experiences each other has in this human condition and have found a variety of different avenues to try to express it. For the most part i have found taht it is beyond words and words only pale in comparrison to what each of us is experiencing. In the end i find myself reaching one conclusion in being that life in it's meaning is too beautiful and too massive to simply put into one book. Or even a series I think they might give us some good ideas to go with but in the end i think it's most important to go out and find what life means to yourself.

[Sapphocrat]

108. Culturally Catholic

Just like being culturally Jewish without practicing (or even believing in) Judaism.

Left the church when I was 15, tried desperately to stay a "Christian," and finally realized I was doing it only out of indoctrination and fear. Today I'm un-categorizable -- spiritual practice can be defined as Hindu, philosophy is more Buddhist, and I'm neither a monotheist nor polytheist, and not exactly a Deist (i.e., there's no one great, big God in the sky; I am God -- but so are you).

But I don't rag on Christianity per se -- only the extremists who want to turn my country into their church. I respect (and often defend) real Christians and real Christianity -- it's just not for me.

[catbert836]

109. Semi-Agnostic Universalist

That's as close as I can get to describing my beliefs.

[Zhade]

110. Can't vote, as atheism is not a religion.

NT!

[sabbat hunter]

112. raised jewish

but decided years ago that no orgainzed relgion really is 'right'. i still believe in god and will pray to her at times. will go to events that some may call 'pagan'.

but pagan and wiccan should really be split as one can be pagan but not wiccan.


david

[TechBear_Seattle]

114. "My religion is to do good." -- Thomas Paine n/t

[ExclamationPoint]

116. wicked awesome n/t

[ExclamationPoint]

115. hey you didn't include jainism or zoroastrianism!

not that i'm either of them, but well, yeah that was kinda pointless