Have you found Jesus? vs. Have you found Athena?

[Ravenseye]

I'm not trying to start a flamewar here. i'm honestly curious. I was raised with zero religion. My bible story book was next to my book on Greek and Norse Myths. Just stories and fables to learn from, but nothing to do with worshiping a higher power of any sort.

So now when I hear people talk about God, or say what I find to be one of the most obnoxious questions a person can ask "Have you found Jesus?" I wonder. How is that different from someone asking me "Have you found Athena?" or "Have you found the Tooth Fairy?" I just don't get it. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I really want to try and understand how people get to thinking this way.

I'm not talking about the Fundies here, either. Fundies have other problems. I'm talking about you. The nice, smart, friendly liberal christian. Why is saying "I believe in God" different from "I believe in the Tooth Fairy"? If there is no evidence of something, why do you have 'faith' in it? Doesn't that seem a little crazy to you? I just don't get it.

Educate me. I honestly want to understand.

[Solly Mack]

1. I can't even find my wubbie

I tried looking under the couch and in the cushions....that's usually where lost objects turn up.

If Jesus or Athena are under my couch, I'm selling tickets.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

8. Do you know where you are?

Here's a hint: Look up at the top of your screen, it should read:

Religion/Theology

:hi:

[Swamp Rat]

3. You could just respond:

"I know where Jesus is. He's sitting next to Thor." :D

[mongo]

4. People want to believe in something

and most seem to like having their opinions handed to them. It gives them a feeling of belonging to something.

How would talk radio or the rise of the Nazi's have happened if it wasn't human nature to want to band together under a system of beliefs?

It doesn't matter how ridiculous an idea is. It matters more how many believe it and defend it.

[Ron Green]

5. Here's how I figure it:

Jesus is part of a monotheism deal, which I accept because if God is God, then God is infinite and eternal, right? Whether or not Jesus walked on the earth, or resurrected this guy, or healed that woman, he claimed to be a combo of both God and man, and said that we were the same, and could put on the Christ, as it were, and have God by following some simple rules: 1) Love your true self, not your bullshit ego self; 2) Love others in the same way. Unlike the Norse or Greek deities, who would cavort and argue like humans with superpowers, Jesus was a superpower who acted like a human, to the point of being killed by assholes even as he forgave them.

So when someone says "Have you found Jesus?" he may be saying "Do you think like I do?" or he may be saying something more profound.

[manic expression]

13. But...

I distinctly remember a passage from the NT where Jesus attacked people in a temple (in Jerusalem, I believe) because he disapproved of their methods. Also, some of the stuff the Christian/Jewish god did in the OT is pretty disturbing. This is not to mention Relevations.

The deities that you mentioned are supernatural beings, who are also natrually beings. They are much like anyone else (and ultimately, they are), but have different purposes and roles in the world.

Secondly, I think having personal deities (such as the Greek, Norse, Celtic, etc... deities) is important, as we see the divinity in all things, as well as our connection with that. Even gods may not be perfect, and recognition of this leads to the realization of the truth that we are all really equal in the end. If you can really connect, in a personal way, to the deities/deity you worship, the connection you share with everything will become more apparent.

Just my $0.02.

[Ron Green]

14. I agree

that it's important to have a personal connection with the deitie(s) in order to make it more meaningful. I believe that monotheism was a big cognitive step forward from polytheism, but many people still aren't capable of enough abstract thinking to believe in God without some sort of system of "master-servant" or "good vs. evil."

I think the important thing about Jesus is the IDEA that we are part animal and part angel, co-creators of the world along with the Infinite. The lesson in his life and his mortality is forgiveness, which I believe is the one redeeming quality in human life.

I'm with you on the harmful parts of the OT, and the nonsense in Revelation. It's dismaying how many fundies latch on to the worst parts of the Bible and use it justify all kinds of craziness.

[manic expression]

15. Hmm...

I believe our agreement may stop there. I want to say sorry in advance to any attacks I may make against your faith.

In my opinion, monotheism ignores the world around us. Polytheism (which includes pantheism) recognizes that we are all different, yet ultimately one. There are many examples that prove this, such as snowflakes, their individuality and their similarity. Another thing is that polytheism provides many types of relationships that a person can have with a deity, including friend, father/mother, teacher, lover and other ways that one can reach a connection with that being. Additionally, there is a complete lack of feminine divinity in monotheism, something that is celebrated in polytheistic traditions. Also, cycles of life and death are ignored in monotheism. Death leads to life, this is obvious. All one must do to find the truth of existence is witness winter's fade into spring and summer, which leads to fall and then winter again. Everything ends, but everything begins again, everything is eternal.

The idea that animals are "below" us is pretty patronizing, IMO. Is there anything more natural and sublime than the harmony provided by nature? If we are "half-angel", then why have we laid waste to the world, while animals and other non-human beings coexist?

Furthermore, forgiveness is not the way justice is reached. A bad deed will find its way to the one who did it. Another thing is that if there is forgiveness, why are people eternally condemned to hell? Real redemption and realization comes internally, not externally, as the individual is responsible for what they do. If you want to see an example of this, look at the 2nd Law of Motion, or simply look at history.

I also want to say that I am probably coming off as harsh. I truly apologize if you feel as though it is.

[Ron Green]

16. I don't feel threatened or that you're harsh,

because I really don't defend any sort of faith. My ideas are based on what just seems to make sense to me. I don't see monotheism in the same way that you characterize it, though. To me, God is truly everything, including the diversity of all creation as well as the unity of all things. I believe that there is no masculine or feminine in the real world (the world of the spirit), and that cycles of life and death are illusions that we experience here in a time- and space-bound existence.

If there are many gods, then which one is most important? How are they arranged? In a monotheistic system, a real one in which God is infinite and eternal, the creation is expressed in many ways, but the reality is the Unity, which of course is the same as the Void. In this way, the Buddha and much of philosophy are not in disagreement. I think the problem is that people want a God they can UNDERSTAND in scientific or corporeal terms, and that just isn't going to happen.

And justice? I think it's a concept strictly of this world. How can there be a need for justice when we are all truly one? (I don't believe in Hell, either.)

[manic expression]

17. Well...

If God is truly everything, than God would BE everything, no? There is no masculine or feminine in the ultimate form of things, but those energies are pervasive in the manifestations of those entities (physical, intellectual, subliminal). Through the recognition of this energy, one can reach its higher form. As many rivers lead to one sea, so too can individuals find different manifestations of the truth to lead to reality, and that they are ultimately reality as well.

They are all important, but in different ways. One deity may be the "head" god, but without their consort, they are nothing. A sports team needs players of all positions to perform, a government needs officials of all levels to function, society needs people of all professions and skills to thrive. It is the same with the bigger picture. The deities are arranged in any way the worshiper wishes to arrange them. You may say that Zeus was the head god of the Hellenistic faiths, but if you traveled to Athens, you would find Athena as the foremost represented deity (and although she was seen foremost by Athenians, they knew that Zeus was her father...and therefore knew his role and importance in relation to the deity of their devotion), while others would be completely devoted to Artemis or Dionysus or Hephaestus, and no one disputed the divinity of the other deities. Again, without Hermes, how would those devotees reach their deity? There is balance and purpose with both the gods and the sects.

A monotheistic system is inherently intolerant and bigoted, as well as mistaken. Only one deity is seen as true, and all others are condemned (where is the forgiveness, again?). Polytheistic religions existed side by side for centuries without significant friction. They accepted that religions, like individuals, are ultimately equal. Monotheistic religions said that only one is correct, while all others are inferior. In regards to religion, like with individuals, this is beyond incorrect.

God is infinite and eternal, and so it is within all. To say that creation is the extent of god's influence is wrong, as nothing is truly separate from another. Creation is simply another phase of a life. The truth is that everything IS god. A son/daughter is ultimately equal to a parent, the son/daughter is not a lesser expression of the parent. To say that an entity is just a mere expression of some separate force is mistaken, as again, everything is connected to all, and all is one.


Here's a (lengthy) metaphor...
A molecule of water is an individual entity. It is not simply an expression of the river, for it is itself, but is also part of the river and it becomes the river. This water molecule is also pervasive throughout all forms, as it can assume the form of gas, liquid or solid. It is constant through the cycles of precipitation and otherwise, which contributes to existence in other ways. It is also constant through all bodies of water, be it a river, a puddle, an ocean, a reservoir or anything else. All these bodies are formed from the same thing, and although they serve different purposes in different ways, they are ultimately the same.

I would also like to say that I use "god" in a different way. I am "god", you are "god", the tree outside my house is "god". Everything is individual, but also connected and one. The word "god" connotes that oneness.

Argue the subjectiveness of justice all you want, but wrongs are met with amelioration. Would you deny this? Look at any stage in history and you will see tyrants fall...as they should. When we are all truly one, actions against others go to the one who did it, as this creates balance. Like the setting sun brings the moon, so does a wrongdoing bring amends.

[Ron Green]

18. I guess I'm defining "monotheism" differently ...

The intolerant and vengeful strains of monotheism have more to do, as far as I can tell, with culture and society than with God. To me, God does not condemn but only loves. People who assign God some sort of personality and wonder why He allows bad things to happen are imagining a limited God. If God is infinite, then there is nothing real outside of God. I believe our only job on this earth is to find our way back to the understanding of this Oneness, and the way to do that is to forgive -- forgive ourselves, and forgive the world.

Thanks for sharing so much thought and energy here with me. I'll be thinking tonight about how I really feel about justice. My ego wants to punish Bush, for example, but I believe I'm called to forgive him. I'm not even supposed to be glad when God kicks his ass, which I hope happens soon.

}(

[manic expression]

19. Maybe

But there is no doubt that real religious intolerance became the norm with the rise of the monotheistic religions. Monotheism is the source of virtually all religious conflict. This is ignoring the disgusting actions of missionaries that are happening as we speak (or type).

It is not an external being that is the source of love, or anything else. Water which rains unto the ground is taken from that very place. Love is a true aspect of truth, and a true aspect of ourselves, and that is one of the most powerful things that connects us all. Know one, know all. Another way of looking at it is what someone told me: "Everything is good, but when people forget that they are good, bad things happen". I think this is very true, as when ignorance of the truth (which includes love) occurs, so does injustice and wrongdoing.

I think a lot of people expect a perfect world to come from some guy in the sky. They are ignorant of everything around them. They forget that death gives life, among other things. That is why a lot of people become disillusioned with religion, IMO.

I think that we are all individual aspects of that which is infinite, and so all that is needed is to find ourselves, what we truly are. That is realization of all reality, or at least one path to it. Our bodies are expressions of our true selves, just as everything is an expression of its true self, and when someone goes beyond the superficial, they reach reality.

Forgiveness is important, but doing the right thing is more important. The opportunity for forgiveness arises from wrong actions. I think a person should worry about what is right for their role, so that forgiveness would never enter the equation.

Thanks for the conversation. IMO, WHEN Bush gets his (and he will...over many lifetimes), it may be natural to feel good, but should we? And how so? That is what needs to be answered.

edited out unnecessary comment

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. beliefs can be based upon experience

I mean, I doubt if anyone here would say it is silly to say, "I met John Kerry, and he's a really neat person!"-because, even if you disagree with the statement, it is based upon one person's experience.

I can't speak for others, but my beliefs are based upon the experiences I have had. I know of God by my experiences, as most mystics do, whatever their faith. Not everyone has these kinds of experiences (and I don't know why some do and some don't), and so of course it is hard to comprehend.

Who is "right"? Who is "wrong"? Who is crazy? Who is sane? We may never know. The best we can do is to treat each other with kindness and compassion-and so I hope my explanation has helped you with your understanding, and wish you well.

Salaam

[htuttle]

7. Cthulhu found ME!

[awoke_in_2003]

9. To (loosely) quote Forrest Gump

"I didn't know I was supposed to be looking for him"

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. Not them too! First the Aruba girl, then the ex-beauty queen... nt

[mwooldri]

11. I didn't find Jesus. I called and He came to me.

I hate to say it but my conversion to Jesus was overnight, it was sudden and I guess you could call it a Hallelujah moment. I had a low point in my life at that time. I didn't know who to speak to so I called on Jesus, and He came. It was a fairly long time ago and I'm ashamed to say I can't put my hands on the little New Testament which I wrote in the reasons why I dedicated my life to Jesus at that point onward.

I must state that before that experience I had rejected God, Jesus and all that the Church entails. My family is a Christian family; my sister found Jesus before me and she's younger.

I'm still trying to find my church home... but things will come as God plans in the end, that I know.

In terms of understanding it, it is something that I just can't explain. I personally believe that I had an encounter with Jesus directly. I can't prove it, but it's because of this that I am 110% convinced He exists and that He is the way.

I suppose you can liken it to an experience with a UFO. No-one can prove beyond doubt that UFOs exist, there may be photos... people may say they've been kidnapped by aliens... but there's no proof.

I am sure that people from the 16th and 7th century would see our ways of working as completely alien and supernatural to them. Unless some of us have science degrees the average layperson would not be able to prove that computers, radios, etc work in the way they do. Fortunately we do have people of high intellect who can explain this and it's not voodoo.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense. It's the best I can do to explain at this moment in time.

Mark.

[WhollyHeretic]

12. I found Jesus!

He was in the middle of a big parade, right next to the elephant. He's wearing black glasses and a red striped shirt... oh wait that's Waldo. I'm not sure then, maybe you could try http://www.classmates.com if you know where he went to high school.

[thinkingwoman]

20. Is he missing?

Sorry, but that is always my first thought when I hear "Have you found Jesus?"

My second thought is always...Have you looked behind the couch? :evilgrin:

[Behind the Aegis]

21. Not a Christian

I am an eclectic pagan with Hellenistic leanings, so your "Have you found Athena" is offensive!! You are making light of my beliefs!

OK...I just kidding you...not about the pagan thing, just the offended thing. I wasn't offended. :)

The biggest difference is that pagans and Jews (and a few other religions and atheism), have no real doctrine to "spread the word." Whereas many Christians place this very high on the list. In Judaism it is considered a big "no-no" to try and convert a non-Jew, or to expect them to live by our laws (yes, I'm a Jew too). The same for pagans. However, if someone asks me about either religion, I do my best to answer questions.

If you walk in my house you will find Athena, she is in every room in my house, except the bathrooms. At least her depiction is in every room. However, I have never felt the need to spread the "word" about her or the other gods. Actually, someone walking in my house gets a little confused because I have so many different religious things in my house (pagan mostly) and lots of scientific things too. I look at it this way...I am my own person. I do the best that I can, try to treat others with respect, when shown respect, and defend myself and those I love and cherish. However, my "gods" do not need defending, ever!

Everything I wrote makes sense to me, which probably means that most people will be confused...I am not always very eloquent! :)