I mind the hell out of the Book of Mormon being in Marriott hotel rooms.

[Thtwudbeme]

I have never read the Book of Mormon, nor stepped foot in a temple. I thought of them primarily as that crazy Donny'n'Marie Cult, and other than the neato gyms and stuff, couldn't figure out why anyone wanted to join a church that didn't want them to drink caffeine, or seem to have any fun whatsoever.

However, I am a religion major; I have my own myths to contend with...so, I just didn't pay any attention to them.

Until we went to the march in DC, and Michael stole the free book of Mormon from the desk in the room at the Marriott....and I looked at it out of curiousity.

I wish I hadn't.

What the HELL??? People are dark skinned because they are sinners???

Being white is called "delightful???"

I mean, forget who in the heck is this Moroni person...there is some nasty racist crap in this. You don't even need to read it...it's indexed for neanderthals in the back...look under the subheading of "skin." No, I am not kidding..."skin."

I wonder how many of the non-white professionals I saw checking into the hotel that weekend would have stayed if they knew that the good 'ol Osmond family, apple pie eating, baseball lovin' Marriott was passing out racist literature?

Am I the only religion major in the history of the US that didn't know that church was a sneaky white supremist organization???

BTW...before anyone here jumps down my throat about their volunteer work for Katrina victims...I don't want to hear it. "Christians" helping "sinners" is nothing new...they see it as "missionary." If that church wants to be considered non-racist, they need to change the damned book--it was written in the 1800's...it's relatively new...

Change it, and apologize.

[pocket]

1. their "Prophet" Ezra Taft Benson

apologized for that bit back in the 80s, iirc.

[Thtwudbeme]

4. It was 1978

and all he was doing was trying to get more members.

He did NOT take the crap out of the book; the church will still attract racists.

[NNadir]

2. The Marriot Hotel chain is owned by Mormons.

You will not get it out of the hotel room by complaining.

[mcscajun]

14. Wow - I didn't know that.

I've been staying in Marriotts sporadically for years. Not exclusively, mind you, so it won't hurt not to stay in them again. :)

Thanks for the info.

[Thtwudbeme]

20. Neither did I

furthermore, I am going to contact "Hotwire" and request they drop that chain from their lists-

[mcscajun]

33. Don't bother -- they're not on Hotwire now.

or at least, not in the major partners list.

http://www.hotwire.com/travel-information/partners/hotel-partners.jsp

In any case, Hotwire isn't likely to drop a major hotel chain.

[Syncronaut Seven]

56. Strange , do you have the same reaction when you find a bible?

If not, that would suggest that you may be displaying traits commonly associated with bigots and hypocrites, not that i'm suggesting, it just Looks like that.

Are you sure you don't have some unexamined prejudice your not sharing with the group?

[funflower]

76. From BuyBlue.org... Marriott is 82% repug donor. Subsidiaries following:

(snip)
Marriott International is firmly lodged as the #1 lodging company in the world with some 2,600 owned or franchised properties in nearly 65 countries. Its hotel format include full-service (Marriott Hotels & Resorts, The Ritz-Carlton, Renaissance Hotels & Resorts), select-service (Courtyard, Fairfield Inn, SpringHill Suites), extended-stay (Residence Inn, TownePlace Suites, Marriott ExecuStay); it also operates time-share properties (Marriott Vacation Club International, Marriott Grand Residence Club). Most of the company's revenue (about 65%) comes from its full-service hotel business.
(snip)

[triguy46]

3. Well, it certainly different from Chrisianity...

that said, I think it is fascinating to watch the fundies and the mormons embrace each other. The fundies have bashed mormons for years, taking them to task for the fantastical mythology created in Christs name, their cult nature, their belief that Jesus is the spawn of Mary who had sex with God. But politics makes for strange bedfellows and these two groups are shacked up big time. The fundies turn their back, the mormons reap greater acceptance by the public without having to 'answer' for their more unusual beliefs, (such as magic underwear).

This will be played out next year in Oklahoma when Ernest Istook (R-Asshole) takes on Brad Henry (D-married to a schoolteacher) for the governors race. Will love seeing how the baptists swallow their 'faith' in order to support a MORMON republican.

[Goblinmonger]

12. Ummmm

Mormans are Christians, right?

"their belief that Jesus is the spawn of Mary who had sex with God" How is that remarkably different than Catholic and other "immaculate conception" views of Jesus' conception?

[htuttle]

48. Speaking as a neutral party, being neither Christian nor Mormon,

...I'd say that Mormons seem about as Christian to me as Muslims and Sikhs, namely that they accept most of Christianity's beliefs, but add on a bunch of holy books of their own.

I guess the big thing that Mormons have in common with Christianity that Muslims and Sikhs don't have is that Mormons are mostly white people.

:shrug:

[Goblinmonger]

58. And they believe Jebus is the son of God

that's a pretty big one that separates them from Muslims and Sikhs.

There are plenty of holy books about Christ that did not make it into the Roman Catholic bible.

[htuttle]

61. I'm not even sure all Christians agree on the specifics of that point

I used to think that 'Christians' meant those who agreed with the 'Nicean Creed', however there are apparently numerous protestant sects who don't agree with all of it. For example, was Jesus a 'human man' and ALSO the 'son of God'? Or was he JUST the son of God (and no 'man' part). OR was he the 'son of God' but incarnated in the form of 'just a man'.

I would actually be hard pressed to define just what a Christian IS nowdays. When you throw Mormons in with the rest of Protestants, I am at a loss to describe what separates Christianity from the rest of the 'post 1st century Abrahamic religions'. For example, would Rastafarians be considered 'Christians' if Mormons are? What about those who follow Bahai?

Then when you throw in the Unitarian Universalists as 'Christians', even though their beliefs on the specific 'divinity' of Jesus range the whole spectrum, it really does seem that the dividing lines for 'Christianity' are made on grounds other than specific tenets of someone's belief.

In other words, if Unitarians and Mormons are considered 'Christians', yet Sikhs and Rastafarians are not, what is the difference between them other than the cultural origins of their respective sects? (ie., Mormons are considered Christians because they're mostly white people, while Sikhs and Rastafarians are not because they are not).

[Nikia]

63. And so was Lucifer

They are God's first born twin sons according to Morman religious beliefs. We are all children of God and Mormon men can someday become Gods with their own planet, wives, and children.

[Goblinmonger]

64. I don't know if that is true or not

but it kind of sounds like bullshit to me (the Lucifer bit). But, even so, I am still baffled by how people redefine Christianity to fit their only little niche. How do you know we don't get our own little planet of our own when we die? What insight do you have into it all that disproves that belief. To the best of my knowledge, through reading and conversation with various Mormons (some friends and some that come to my door), Mormons believe that Jesus is divine and follow his teachings. They add a couple books, they add a couple twists, but which sects don't. That, in my book, makes them Christian. You may not like it, but too damn bad.

[JerseygirlCT]

54. Mormons think of themselves as Christians

Many other Christians don't think LDS theology holds up.

But lots of Christians don't think other Christians have it right and can call themselves Christians. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "Christian or Catholic" as if RCs are somehow not Christian.

Personally, what I know of the LDS church sounds pretty strange. But I also think people ought not to define someone else as "Christian" or not.

[Goblinmonger]

59. I would agree with you

If fundies think that people can go around saying that others are Christian and that is OK, I have a whole shit load of people I think should be kicked out of the club.

Back in the day when I was Catholic and gave a shit about it, I was amazed when someone told me that they weren't Catholic, they were Christian, like Catholics somehow worshipped this whole new guy that has no relationship to Jebus. Oh well. Ignorance abounds.

[Dervill Crow]

62. My son once asked me if we were Christian or Canadian.

I had NO idea what he was talking about, so he explained that he went to church with one friend at Milwaukie Christian Church and with another friend to a church that didn't have the word "christian" in the name, but he thought it was what his dad was. He knew it started with "C" and had more than two syllables, and he came up with Canadian. :shrug:

That led to a nice discussion about different people's beliefs and the differences in religions and varieties and variations within those religions. On another note: My husband told me, when I was a new Christian and really wanted to evangelize the world, that he didn't need to be born again because he's Catholic. Took the wind right out of my sails as the D. James Kennedy "Evangelism Explosion" textbook had not prepared me for that response to my gospel presentation. :rofl:

[catbert836]

70. When I was Catholic

back in public middle school, I had to clear up a few people who were convinced that Catholics worshipped the Antichrist (the Pope, obviously) and that meant they had the right to interrupt my lunch to try and save my immortal soul. :eyes:

[MuseRider]

5. When did they

start leaving those in hotel rooms! I have never seen one there, were they next to Gideon?

You can't steal a Book Of Mormon, they are free to whoever wants one.

Lots of stuff in that book has been changed as they grew and "modernized" or conformed to Federal laws. Still, it is odd isn't it?

[ananda]

6. Is it just as bad as..

.. the Gideon Bible?

Ugghhh.

[Anser]

7. Get them all out.

As a religion major you probably know that all the religious texts are full of disgustiong discriminatory things. None of them should be in the hotels.

[Goblinmonger]

8. I'm with you. Wasn't there something

about a plank in the new testament? What was the point of that story again?

[triguy46]

10. The BOM makes for good science fiction n/t

[manic expression]

68. Yeah, 'cause the Tao Te Ching

and the Vedas are both full of "disgusting discriminatory things".......

:eyes:

[drb]

9. Well, the mormon "god" (which one it is) changed his mind...

....about black people back in the seventies. Now he says they're fine.

Here's the scoop. The mormon missionaries down in Brazil got a bunch of people to sign up and donate to build a temple. Come to find out, however, that since most of the people who donated had a trace of black ancestry, they couldn't go into the temple for which they had so generously paid.

Mormon "god" slaps his forehead: "Doh!"

[triguy46]

13. it allows for all mortals to become gods...

something like "As you are now, god once was, as god is now, you can become" or some deal like that. If you keep on the special underwear, do your works ad nauseum, tithe, get married in the temple, follow ALLL the rules, you get to level 3 of heaven, and a chance for the big prize, a planet earth of your own.

[Goblinmonger]

60. And we know that isn't true

because......:shrug: You got some insight into God that proves you are right and they are wrong? Sure it sounds crazy to me, but so does all the mumbo jumbo about grandpa in the sky, going to reconciliation, spending time in purgatory because you were not REALLY evil but not quite good enough for heaven yet (where the priest at my dad's funeral said he would be--idiot).

[Ezlivin]

11. The pages make for a decent rolling paper

If you tear out the blank pages in the front and rear of the book, you will find that they will do in a pinch.

And since the book is recyclable, you can toss the rest of it when you are done!

[YDogg]

15. Mormons aren't Christian.

At least, that seems to be the consensus among mainstream Christian bodies.

http://www.irr.org/mit/Is-Mormonism-Christian.html
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2239
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni_en.html
http://www.namb.net/atf/cf/{CDA250E8-8866-4236-9A0C-C646DE153446}/BB_Mormons.pdf
http://www.gc2000.org/pets/cal/TEXT/c0806.asp

[jody]

18. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" don't follow Christ's

teachings?

[trotsky]

37. If you believe that Christ's teachings include fighting against racism,

then no, they don't.

[MuseRider]

39. Yes they do but they

did not used to. They used to be racist but they are no longer, they used to be polygamists but they are no longer. The church I used to attend was very racially mixed and there was nothing holding someone of any race from seeking full participation.

I am not sticking up for them, I left them, but they are not what you are saying, not anymore.

They have not changed their Book of Mormon because those are the original words of their prophet. Other religions are allowed to grow past the original words in their books, the Mormons should be allowed to as well.

[Goblinmonger]

40. That eliminates a lot of people

now doesn't it.

[jody]

41. According to the NT, Jesus initially said his message was only for Jews.

Later he apparently broadened his message to the entire world but was his initial message a form of racism?

[trotsky]

42. Well, since I am not a Christian,

you won't find me defending it much. But since many liberal Christians do insist that Jesus' teachings oppose racism, I figured I would throw that in.

[jody]

43. I understand,

:hi:

[heidler1]

74. How many Christians practice turning the other cheek as Jesus said?

Are they still Christians?

[Goblinmonger]

38. Well, they believe Christ

is the son of God. I don't know how that somehow makes them not Christian. I know a lot of Christian sects want to say that Mormon's aren't Christian (though a lot of those same sects say the Roman Catholics aren't Christian), but get serious.

And the last couple Mormons that stopped by my place said that they were Christian (and, yes, I did ask them). If that's good enough for Robertson, it should be good enough for them.

[jody]

16. Who forced you to read a book you hate? n/t

[Thtwudbeme]

24. Where in the world from my post did you get that I "hated" the BOM?

or that somebody "forced" me to read it?

I do "hate" it now, though...I will admit to that. Before that, I thought it was just cheesy assed crap.

[jody]

29. Your OP was hardly written in endearing terms!

:rofl: :hi:

[Thtwudbeme]

31. I said I "didn't pay any attention to them."

I have only known one mormon in my entire life...NC isn't exactly teeming with temples.

But, I "get it," and "hi!" backatcha!

;)

[TheFarseer]

17. It's not a public hotel

They can have whatever book they want in their rooms. If you don't like it, don't pay any attention to it or stay at a different hotel.

[Thtwudbeme]

25. No, dear, you are right. It's not a publically OWNED hotel

however, they offer rooms to the "public," they offer their rooms on "Hotwire," and other websites...and I didn't CHOOSE that room on purpose.

You are correct, I do NOT have to stay in them again...no kidding. Thanks for the "advice," but I think I would rather try (possibly in vain) to fix something that I see as very very wrong.

[bryant69]

75. The freedom of a company to place books in their rooms?

Interesting that this is the problem you have chosen to confront. I would have thought there might be bigger problems out there.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Ilsa]

19. Here's what I'm considering doing to counter their propaganda:

I'm thinking of writing some counterpoints to some specific "scripture" in the Book of Mormon, and copying it to small sheets of paper to be inserted into the book anytime I stay at a Marriott. That way, the books don't go missing (and get replaced), but the info is there.

[wtmusic]

22. Excellent!

Or take the BOM, and drop off a Koran. :evilgrin:

[medeak]

23. good info here

http://www.exmormon.org/

[trotsky]

28. This site should give you plenty of info.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/index.htm

[wtmusic]

21. all religions suck

and are just props for fears and prejudices.

[Thtwudbeme]

26. Really?

Read anything about Buddhism, or Native American religions recently?

Your generalization is way off.

[wtmusic]

36. my opinion

Do not Buddhists believe that Buddha is the creator and governor of the universe?

Am I not allowed to follow morals and ethics every way as valid as those espoused in Buddhist philosophy, without accepting that some pudgy figure has me under his watchful eye?

The problem with deity figures and religion in general is that it is divisive. If I believe in Buddha and you don't, then I believe you are wrong, and I don't know any more than you who created the universe.

If we could accept uncertainty in our lives the world would be a better place.

[Growler]

46. Buddhists do not "believe" in Buddha

Hi! Long-time lurker here... and I just wanted to comment on wtmusic's post (#36):

No, Buddhists do NOT "believe that Buddha is the creator and governor of the universe". Actually, Buddhists don't "believe" in Buddha at all, and a Buddhist is simply a person that follows the Buddha's teachings and tries to incorporate them into a daily practice. There is no belief involved: you practice what he taught, and if it works for you, do it! The Buddha himself said "don't do this if it doesn't work for you!"

Also, Buddhism is basically an Agnostic religion, and doesn't address the idea of a "Creator" in the slightest... and in fact, strictly speaking, Buddhism teaches that the soul is an illusion.

I remember a few years ago the Dali Lama caused a bit of an uproar at a World Religions conference -- various world leaders from different religions got together, and one of the first items on the agenda was coming up with some sort of unifying statement that All religions could agree on -- the Dali Lama insisted that any reference to God be taken out... because Tibetan Buddhism has nothing to say about God. From a Buddhist's perspective, God may or may not exist... but that is immaterial to the Buddha's teachings, and basically unimportant. (I don't remember what the result of his stance was at that summit....)

So anyhoo.... I wanted to correct wtmusic's impression. Please don't think that it was an attack on wtmusic himself. Also, I agree with his assertion that "If we could accept uncertainty in our lives the world would be a better place." This is very true, and also a fairly Buddhist outlook on life. ;-)

Thanks!

growler

[wtmusic]

47. thanks, very informative

and I should have clarified my original definition of religion to encompass only the first definition of the word, which is "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe." :thumbsup:

[Growler]

49. glad it helped

Thanks, wtmusic. I agreed with your larger argument, but felt I had to clarify some issues regarding Buddhism.

Okay, back to lurking. :-)

[manic expression]

69. Do you think your definition

would mostly encompass monotheistic religions, then? Paganism, animism, pantheism and the traditions that fall under those categories (mostly depleted thanks to monotheistic efforts) wouldn't really fit your definition. That is even ignoring Taoism, Confucianism, stoicism/other Greek philosophies (if you want to call them religions) and more.

Just a thought.

By the way, I would personally agree with you when it comes to most forms of monotheism, especially with dogmatic and fundamentalist beliefs.

[catbert836]

72. That's a huge generalization.

Could you tell me in which ways these religions serve as "props for fears and prejudices"?
- Buddhism
- Taoism
- Confucianism
- Pantheism
- Paganism

I don't want to overburden you, so I won't put any more.

[sinkingfeeling]

27. Wow, how is the Book of Mormon any worst than the Bible? Please..

give me a break! You're a religion major, who seems to be only interested in one religion and critical of all others. My suggestion is remove both from hotel rooms or to simply ignore.

[Thtwudbeme]

30. omg. I can't believe how much people "read into" posts

please, please, please quote me.

As a matter of fact, my concentration is Buddhism.

Thanks for playing.

Next.

[Goldensilence]

35. i thought

that to most people buddhism isn't often refered to as a religion because it's lack of belief in a god.

[thinkingwoman]

66. I think it's getting worse

the "reading into" posts...Over the years it seems that happens more and more. :eyes:

[madrchsod]

32. i found this---

http://www.algonet.se/~daba/lds/despmail.htm
Desperate note to the cDc publisher
and this
http://www.algonet.se/~daba/lds/nauvoo.htm
LDS info: Nauvoo, Illinois: 1839-1844

they were not well liked in illinois

[MuseRider]

34. They were not liked

in many places. I think it was still "legal" to kill Mormons in Missouri until the late 60's early 70's (I can't remember and don't want to spend the time on this to look it up right now). That is part of why they tend to look and act like a cult, not the only reason but a good part of it I think.

In 1976 the "extermination" order against Mormons was recinded.

[Zhade]

44. I used to be a part of that cult. I don't blame you one bit!

NT!

[EstimatedProphet]

45. I've known Mormons

I was in a boy Scout troop that was a subsidiary of the Mormon church. It was extremely white. Both racism and economic elitism are core Mormon beliefs, from my experiences.

[Syncronaut Seven]

50. I am a religion major; I have my own myths to contend with?

Your a religion major and you've never cracked the Book of Mormon?

I would have thought a revue of the basic tenet's of world religions would have been an essential part of your education.

But then, you'd have to be pretty confident in your own position.

Life is short, taste everything.

On edit: I view Mormonism as a fundie religion, Kind of like the SBC, but smarter.

[Thtwudbeme]

51. Mormonism is not a world religion

it is a regional US cult.

To my knowledge, none of the UNC schools offer a class on "Mormons," although I am sure they are mentioned somewhere.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Syncronaut Seven]

55. Well that was uncalled for.

The only thing I stated was the unvarnished truth, In rebuttal to your misinformed stereotype.

Which part of the truth did you find most offensive? I guess we'll never know in the context of full disclosure will we?

[Thtwudbeme]

57. what in the world did I say that offended you?

?

I was trying to tell you that following the current curricula in the department, classes on the Mormons are not offered...

What's the problem? It's not a "world religion."

[CrownPrinceBandar]

53. I just finished reading "Under the Banner of Heaven".........

by Jon Krakauer. It gives a pretty good overview of the LDS, warts and all. From a pretty concise history to detailed looks at the big players in the past and present Mormonism, this book really gave me some background into a faith I had that was pretty much under my radar up to this point.

However, Krakauer could be accused of having a jaundiced viewpoint as I looks at the history of the LDS through the lens of the hated, illegal tradition of polygamy (which is shunned in mainstream LDS). Hated to the point that practitioners were killed and booted from 3 states because of it.

Along with the polygamy bent, the story is also approached via the story of two fundy Mormon brothers that brutally killed their sister and law and infant niece upon direction from God.

But to address your point, the LDS has opened up alot since the time that Joseph Smith dictated the golden tablets to his wife before Moroni came to take them away. In 2002, BYU elected their first black president in their history.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

65. On my recent trip to Japan, I stayed in a hotel that

had a Japanese Bible as well as Buddhist scriptures in Japanese and English on the shelf next to the instructions for using the broadband Internet connection.

:shrug:

[CarbonDate]

67. I mind the Bible being in all the other rooms....

...but to each their own, I suppose.

[Sandpiper]

71. Self Delete

[catbert836]

73. Joseph Smith

His wife wasn't exactly thrilled when he told her God wanted him to have more than one wife. His reasoning for this was he couldn't stay away from other women.

[MISSDem]

77. There are those who call the Mormons a cult.

Hank Hanegraph (I probably spelled this wrong) who has the radio show called The Bible Answer Man is one who does.