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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 08:20 PM
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French suburbs turn away from state and towards Islam
Local communities in France's immigrant suburbs increasingly organise themselves on Islamic lines rather than following the values of the secular republic, according to a major new sociological study.

Mon, 5 December 2011
Thibauld Malterre / AFP / Expatica

Paris -- Respected political scientist Gilles Kepel, a specialist in the Muslim world, led a team of researchers in a year-long project in Clichy-sous-Bois and Montfermeil, two Paris suburbs that exploded in riots in 2005.

The resulting study -- "Suburbs of the Republic" -- found that religious institutions and practices are increasingly displacing those of the state and the French Republic, which has a strong secular tradition.

Families from the districts, which are mainly populated by immigrants from north and west Africa and their descendants, regularly attend mosque, fast during Ramadan and boycott school meals that are not "halal".

With between five and six million Muslim residents and citizens, France has the largest Islamic population in the European Union, and central government often struggles to address the challenges to integration that this poses.

http://www.expatica.com/fr/news/local_news/French-subur...
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alp227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sad. This is what enables the right wing.
The funny thing is that "cultural preservation" is not in the constitution (US) AT ALL (and maybe neither in France's declaration of the rights of man and citizen) yet CONs whine about preserving "our culture" all the time whether in the US or EU.

I'm all for religious and cultural freedom as long as adherents won't infringe on everyone else's civil rights. I think that the French Muslims want to practice their religion in a different environment than the Islamic nations because of the economic benefits of being in Europe.
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. They can isolate themselves if they want, but as soon as they start believing
they should be held to a different set of laws than other residents it's going to become a rather nasty problem.

These people would also do well to take note of immigrant communities in the USA that tried the same thing. Just ask the Bosnians or Nicaraguans who moved to Saint Louis (where I was until not long ago) what happens when they isolate themselves. The results are not pretty.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. So what.
I don't especially care if their immigrants want to live freely, as they wish. The French obviously see that as cause for concern, since they no longer believe in 'liberte, egalite, fraternite' as they once did.

K&R
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DonCoquixote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. There is nothing in the Koran
that condemns liberty, fraternity and equality, sadly, some on both sides of the mosque forget that.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Have you read the Koran? nt
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DonCoquixote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Yes
and if you have, please find where it bans "liberte fraternte et egalitie?"
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Surah 4 advocates sexual intolerance.
http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/004.asp

4:15 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

4:16 If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yes, I know that; I have many muslim friends, none of whom have killed me.
:D :hi: (yet! ;) )
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. It's their right; but a bit of a pity for both sides
Mind you, as you say, if the French go around blaming immigrants for their problems and voting for people like LePen and his daughter, they can't be too surprised if the immigrant communities show increased self-segregation.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Yes, it is. I confess to a bit of schadenfreude observing this from across the pond, knowing
that the French imposed their ways on their colonies, and continue to exploit the Third World with impunity, literally. So, this is not quite what can be referred to as payback, but maybe 'sauce for the goose'.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. True; but I'm not sure that either my country or yours is in a position to throw too many stones
over such matters.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Neither you nor I are nations, though. We are entitled to our opinions.
That's democracy. :hi:
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
6. Bwahahahaha! nt
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
10. Rather depressing
But I think some of it's a reaction to French xenophobia. Self-fulfilling prophecies and all that.

No problem with people attending mosque (or church/synagogue/etc) and following their religious traditions. People of all faiths do the same. A bit of a problem if it's associated with self-segregation, however.
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