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It didn't matter then,, and it doesn't matter now

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Thats my opinion Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 01:11 PM
Original message
It didn't matter then,, and it doesn't matter now
Then was 1978, and the Democratic Convention in Chicago. I was a chaplain at the University of Chicago. The Chicago 8 and the rest of SDS and the Weathermen headquartered in my campus church. I was as close to a chaplain as they had. The occupation of the University was directed from our building. This meant that my phones were tapped and pictures taken of everyone who entered the building. We were all gassed at the corner of Michigan and Balbo. I was under FBI surveillance. When the eightthen sevenwere indicted, I was called before the Grand Jury, where two members of my College group were agents, there to testify against me. The seven: Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin, David Dellinger, Tom Hayden, Rennie Davis, John Froines, and Lee Weiner formed a marvelous cadre of peacemakers. What was their religion? I knew that Dellinger was seminary trained and Davis worshipped a teen-aged Indian Guru. I didnt ask, know or care about the religion or irreligion of the others. I knew they were all motivated from different perspectives. I assumed most were good solid humanists, but who cared? What was important was their commitment to ending the war. Whatever their religious faith or lack of it didnt matter.

That is still the way it is with me, whether the current issue is the environment, the mid-east wars, economic justice, GLBT concerns, or politics. I know religiously motivated people and humanists, atheists and agnostics who are equally motivated, and I have no desire to examine their motivations. I simple accept what they do as brothers and sisters. I will never write off any of them or even inquire about their beliefs. I only seek to stand with them in the work in which we are mutually engaged.

Open arms are always more important than closed minds. Fundamentalists of any sort fail to see the real problems. It is not only a waste of time for me to criticize atheists, as long as they have the same progressive societal goals as I do. My history testifies to this perspective. I also find the effort to criticize all Christians equally useless.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. In 1978 the convention wasn't in Chicago...1968 perhaps?
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LuvNewcastle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 01:19 PM
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2. There was no convention in 1978.
There was one in 1976 and 1980. They take place every four years, the same year as a Presidential election.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Is there a difference between criticizing all Christians,
and criticizing the Christian Holy Bible in your opinion?

In my opinion, there is a difference between these two activities.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. You keep saying it doesn't matter...
but you keep starting new threads to criticize others because you think it matters.

WTF? There are some questions for you on the thread you started yesterday, by the way. If you decide to visit it again, that is.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 01:52 PM
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5. But some of us don't have that opportunity for it not to matter to us.
Doubtless race matters not to white current or past supporters of efforts to end racism. Race does not matter to me - I'm white. I don't treat non-whites differently (I hope, and think). But race matters to every minority I've ever spoken to about it - because they are the ones who DO get treated differently, even today. They feel the watchful eye of security on them. They get used to more frequent traffic stops. They know they miss out on jobs or apartments more than they should. And that's if they are lucky enough to avoid overt or violent racism. They look around a society where almost all the power is in the hands of whites. They know race matters to them.

Gender does not matter to me - I'm male. I don't think I suffer too much from gender stereotyping, but every time I go into meetings with other mid and high-level managers I see nine men for every woman, and a few times those women have told me that, even at a decent level of success, they still feel the unfairness of gender expectations. Their bad moods are PMS - mine are just bad moods. Their occasional venting makes them bitches. Mine makes me strong and passionate. They see the men in the room instinctively look at other men for technical engineering answers, even though they are looking at the woman's subordinates with less experience and education. They know gender matters to them.


Sexuality does not matter to me - I am (mostly - and openly) straight. I certainly don't suffer from any loathing for gay folk, but, especially as an occasional bi as well as just another guy at the bar, I have obviously talked to quite a few, and even though they have been on the whole happy and successful people, they know that they are viewed as "the other". Even if they haven't come across too many Phelpses or gay-bashers, the out ones all have stories to tell of discrimination in housing, at work, with the government or its employees. Those still closeted all hear the cruel jokes and the use of sexuality-based terms as insults that they have to grit their teeth and bear, or reveal their secret that would expose them to the same. And yep, like atheists, gays can "pass" - an option not open to the above normally, but what a self-loathing dishonest and weaselly option, forced upon them by others, that is. They see a world dominated by straights, that largely either hates them or pokes fun at them for who they are. They know sexuality matters to them.

Now no, atheists were never slaves, and they don't make 78c to the dollar for believers, and yes we can marry other atheists if we choose, but we still rank lower than any of the above in measures of political viability, public trustworthiness, and private acceptance. We hear all the politicians kowtow to the believers. We see the media doing straight reporting on stories of divine intervention. We see the special status religious groups get. We know that being open about our lack of religious beliefs would in many cases make us subject to discrimination, scorn and even violence. We spend the money and hear/say the pledge with God levered into them under McCarthyism. We see a society dominated by Christianity in its government, its laws, its norms and we know we are "the other" too. Do you honestly think we don't know that it matters to us?
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Great post. n/t
:applause:
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Thats my opinion Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Powerful post
It does matter when you are on the inside for certain. It doesn't matter from the outside when you are side by side in the same trenches.

Even from the outside it does matter because it demands a greater sensitivity.
Thanks
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
7. Somehow, I missed the 1978 convention.
That's odd, and I though the Chicago 8 was from the 1968 convention. Who knew?
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Thats my opinion Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. anybody have a response to the post beyond the stupid wrong date?
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Eristic argument is a favorite mode here, I think
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-11 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Well, gee, I learned a new word today.
And if there was some mod that didn't know it, now they too know. And...

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Thats my opinion Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. Alas misprint-- the date was 68 not 78. Sorry
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. You've spread this same nonsense over and over
claiming that people's motivations don't matter in one post, and then crowing about the wonderful things religious people do because of their faith in another. And you've certainly spent plenty of time criticizing atheists here, despite claims that your "history" is otherwise.

Do you still need it explained why you're not taken seriously?
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Thats my opinion Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. so let's stop
crowing about all the terrible things religious people do. I never criticize atheists or anyone else for their solid support of the issues that Democrats and other liberals find important. In fact, they are my brothers and sisters. If critiques were stopped on r/t it would become a mighty thin forum. But the harsh judgment is as equal as a rabbit and elephant pie--one mouse and one elephant.
You would't guess just how seriouslsy I am taken both in DU and far beyond. But not by those who want to play "gotcha".
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Who's crowing about anything?
Edited on Wed Aug-17-11 09:35 PM by skepticscott
Are you honestly saying that people here are happy and think it should be celebrated that people beat their children (to death) because they firmly believed that god wanted them to? The evil and terrible things that religion leads people to do should be pointed out, but NO ONE is happy about them.

And no, the harsh judgement is not equal, because the positions are not equal. And yes, you do criticize atheists for many things other than the strawman you created.

Why do you feel the need to argue so dishonestly and to create such an idiotic false equivalence?
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
14. You do care about motivations, and you have since you got here,
and that's why post after post of yours focuses on religious motivation, just like this one. It's a passive aggressive tactic I've seen my whole life. You wish for people here to stop criticizing religion because it is your personal motivation for supporting political causes that denizens here agree with, like LGBT rights.

Tough. It's possible to do the right thing for the wrong reasons.

As for criticism, rest assured that it will continue, and you will only serve to fan it with your attempts to quash it.
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