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In this holy time of the year, 72 virgins come to mind and for good reason.

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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 08:52 AM
Original message
In this holy time of the year, 72 virgins come to mind and for good reason.
I just received an email from a relative with 72 virgins in the topic window, I won't read it but I will put this up here for all to see. Ignorance and dissing one's belief system chaps my ass.


http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php...

So where did the reward of 72 virgins in paradise for suicide come from? Are there any Islamic teachings we can point to endorsing that? When we look at the highest authority in Islam, the Quran, we find nothing in it endorsing rewards for suicide. Instead we find the strongest condemnation with severe punishments for those who commit suicide. When we look at Hadiths, which after the Quran is second in authority in Islam, we find nothing in the authentic Bukhari and Muslim Hadiths endorsing suicide. Instead we find strong condemnation for it.

Searching what Muslims refer to as Gharib Hadiths (weak or strange Hadiths) we do find something about 72 wives but not virgins. The Hadith we find is the following: Quote:

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Sunan al-Tirmidhi Hadith 2562 says:

The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 典he smallest reward for the people of Paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah to Sana誕

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This is as a weak Hadith that has no Sanad line or sequence of narration. Although listed in an authoritative collection, this particular Hadith has technical weaknesses in its chain of transmitters and is therefore not considered impeccable. As a result, Muslims are not required to believe in it. Even if the Hadith was true, there is nothing about it that says that if someone commits suicide they would get 72 virgins in paradise.

Muslims know that the description of paradise or heaven in Hadiths and Quran is allegorical. If not, then Allah would have allowed us to take our bodies with us when we die. But the vehicle by which we could enjoy the physical things (especially 72 virgins ) mentioned as being in heaven, is left behind here in this world to rot and decay away. So we know for a fact that for heavenly rewards, physical things of this world are used to describe things totally non-physical. A Hadith to keep in mind is as follows:

More at link:



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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. K&R for fighting ignorance.
:kick:
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
2. Very interesting post.
80,000 servants and 72 wives? That would be my vision of hell. :-)

But it does underscore an important point that the Islam and Christian religions share - both religions have their core tenants reinterpreted and hijacked by a radical fringe who cynically use the veneer of authority to further their immediate secular agenda. As such, the societies in which these religious distortions are allowed to flourish, suffer. Moderates in both religious cultures seem unable to to properly condemn and marginalize these radicals, much to the world's disadvantage.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. Just how many wives did Solomon have? Or concubines? Or slaves?
First Kings 11:1-3 indicates that King Solomon had 700 hundred wives and 300 hundred concubines
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
4. There aren't Christians with beliefs that can't be found in the Bible?
At least according to one person's analysis of the Bible, but not another person's?

Which of the following, if either at all, is supposed to be the point of the article you linked to in the OP?

(1) No one at all who calls himself a Muslim has ever committed a suicide attack, certainly not doing so expecting an afterlife reward paid out in virgins.

(2) Anyone who has ever committed a suicide attack, especially if they expected to get some number of virgins as a reward, can't be considered a "true" Muslim?

It could well be, I suppose, that everything I've ever heard about the motivations of some suicide bombers with regard to virgins (sometimes 70, sometimes 72, I think I've heard other numbers bandied about) was pure propaganda. The article you link to, however, doesn't help reveal one way or another if that's true or not.

Just as I know there are plenty of Christians who all claim the authority of the Bible yet who end up doing and believing completely different things, each arguing they're right and the others are wrong, the same kind of thing obviously happens in the Islamic world. I don't have to be an expert on the Quran or the Hadiths to know that this is true.

So what does a long argument based on pointing out Quranic passages have to do with whether or not any suicide attacks have ever been carried out by people who consider themselves Muslims, who hope to get a large number of virgins as a reward for their actions?
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edhopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
5. Virgins or raisins?
It would be funny if it weren't tragic.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2002/jan/12/books.guard...
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. There's gonna be some pissed off Muslims in the after-life...
Edited on Mon Apr-25-11 10:03 AM by LAGC
If they went to all that trouble of suicide bombing just for a couple handfuls of raisins.

Maybe God/Allah has a sense of humor after all...

LOL.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. I love it!
I, of course, think it's a bit crazy to believe in any of these afterlife promises, regardless of exact translation, but I'll never look at a box of raisins in exactly the same way ever again. :)
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
6. Cannot the same argument be made for ALL "holy texts"?
Different people have different interpretations. Who is to say which is right?
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edhopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Yes
For instance, in the original version Cinderella had a fur shoe, but through a missed translation it became a glass slipper.

In the original source material, i.e the comic books, Robin never said "Holey..." anything.

Myths, legends and fairy tales are often changed and re-interpreted over time.
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Too bad that point seems completely lost to the OP.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
11. I'm unimpressed by the anti-semitism at your link
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
12. Here is how one can preserve radical Islam's good reputation:
Blame the Joos!

(do I really need a sarcastic smilie for this one?)
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
13. To be fair to the terrorists, I don't think they consider what they do suicide,
I think they consider what they do to be martyrdom.
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