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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 03:23 AM
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Can God make a statement be both true and false?
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  - What is a paradox? n/t  pnwmom   Apr-24-11 03:45 AM   #1 
  - for those of us who don't already know what you're talking about a little context would be  Tunkamerica   Apr-24-11 03:57 AM   #2 
  - God also cannot be both omniscient and omnipotent  inademv   Apr-24-11 03:59 AM   #3 
  - why not?  Tunkamerica   Apr-24-11 04:30 AM   #4 
     - with the power to know all and do all  inademv   Apr-24-11 05:16 PM   #13 
        - seems like a very narrow way to look at it. In an infinite universe "God" will do all things  Tunkamerica   Apr-24-11 09:38 PM   #15 
           - Ok look  inademv   Apr-24-11 10:27 PM   #16 
              - he both makes the cube and doesn't make the cube and is able to see both outcomes.  Tunkamerica   Apr-24-11 11:23 PM   #17 
                 - So God is a logical contradiction eh?  inademv   Apr-25-11 12:28 AM   #18 
                 - Maybe so... and truthfully, I'm not a believer, but I see it more as the oft-repeated  Tunkamerica   Apr-26-11 03:38 AM   #21 
                    - Entire line of conversation is pointless  inademv   Apr-26-11 03:09 PM   #24 
                       - well, many of the lines of conversation on here presuppose any number of things  Tunkamerica   Apr-27-11 04:34 AM   #27 
                 - The elegant multiverse. Its a fascinating concept. nt  johnroshan   Apr-26-11 04:13 AM   #22 
  - Wheres the damn cat when you need him? nt/  johnroshan   Apr-24-11 05:09 AM   #5 
  - Starved to death ... no-one knew he was really in the box ... (n/t)  Nihil   Apr-28-11 08:42 AM   #38 
  - My dead son is alive  meegbear   Apr-24-11 05:34 AM   #6 
  - Yes ...  muriel_volestrangler   Apr-24-11 05:44 AM   #7 
  - Quantum!  Silent3   Apr-24-11 07:31 AM   #8 
  - Touche nt  sudopod   Apr-24-11 09:52 AM   #11 
  - That's like asking what time it was at the moment of the big bang.  rug   Apr-24-11 07:41 AM   #9 
  - Oh really? Why is that?  trotsky   Apr-25-11 06:53 AM   #19 
  - Because concepts that are meaningful in some cases are meaningless in others.  rug   Apr-26-11 07:59 PM   #25 
     - We can explain why when it comes to time and the big bang.  trotsky   Apr-27-11 08:38 AM   #35 
        - No.  rug   Apr-27-11 01:39 PM   #36 
  - t zero  quaker bill   Apr-26-11 06:54 AM   #23 
  - To us it can seem that way. /nt  Festivito   Apr-24-11 07:45 AM   #10 
  - Who needs god?  skepticscott   Apr-24-11 11:09 AM   #12 
  - Yes under two conditions:  laconicsax   Apr-24-11 07:29 PM   #14 
  - Logic concerns the orderly use of words to help us organize our thinking and conversation  struggle4progress   Apr-25-11 11:04 PM   #20 
  - I think I will try to shed some light on the disagreements in this forum, by discussing  struggle4progress   Apr-26-11 09:10 PM   #26 
  - "some issues simply cannot be addressed by mere logic"  trotsky   Apr-27-11 06:10 AM   #28 
     - Good morning, Trots! What insights are you bringing to the table today?  struggle4progress   Apr-27-11 06:30 AM   #29 
        - Just pointing out fallacies!  trotsky   Apr-27-11 06:35 AM   #30 
           - No ideas from you about the proper interpretation of negation?  struggle4progress   Apr-27-11 07:07 AM   #31 
              - That's not the problem.  trotsky   Apr-27-11 07:51 AM   #32 
                 - I entered this thread to mention some issues in logic. So, have a greart day!  struggle4progress   Apr-27-11 07:52 AM   #33 
                    - And mention them you did...  trotsky   Apr-27-11 07:53 AM   #34 
  - Mathematically Simple  Sadena Meti   Apr-27-11 08:04 PM   #37 
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. What is a paradox? n/t
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Tunkamerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 03:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. for those of us who don't already know what you're talking about a little context would be
the polite way to go
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inademv Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 03:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. God also cannot be both omniscient and omnipotent
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Tunkamerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. why not?
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inademv Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. with the power to know all and do all
one cannot NOT do what one knows they are going to do.
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Tunkamerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. seems like a very narrow way to look at it. In an infinite universe "God" will do all things
and he'll know that he's going to do all things.
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inademv Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Ok look
God can make a cube
he knows he will make a cube in the next instant
he can't NOT make a cube in the next instant because it would negate his knowledge of himself making the cube in that next instant
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Tunkamerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. he both makes the cube and doesn't make the cube and is able to see both outcomes.
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inademv Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. So God is a logical contradiction eh?
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Tunkamerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Maybe so... and truthfully, I'm not a believer, but I see it more as the oft-repeated
branching timelines idea. God can know the consequences of every action taken by him so he is able to take any action and know the outcomes of said action. To say he can't not do something he has seen is imposing false limits based on assumptions you've made about the nature of his power.

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inademv Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Entire line of conversation is pointless
because it presupposes that there has been presented reasonable evidence or reasoning that God exists in the first place.
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Tunkamerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. well, many of the lines of conversation on here presuppose any number of things
If we stuck only to "proven" facts we'd not have anything to talk about.
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johnroshan Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. The elegant multiverse. Its a fascinating concept. nt
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johnroshan Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 05:09 AM
Response to Original message
5. Wheres the damn cat when you need him? nt/
Edited on Sun Apr-24-11 05:10 AM by johnroshan
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-28-11 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
38. Starved to death ... no-one knew he was really in the box ... (n/t)
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meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 05:34 AM
Response to Original message
6. My dead son is alive
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 05:44 AM
Response to Original message
7. Yes ...
... and no ...
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
8. Quantum!
The magic word is "quantum"! Everything spiritual and mystical is better with some pop-sci QM thrown in. If you want to get extra fancy with an answer to the OP, the word "qubit" might just fit the bill.
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Touche nt
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
9. That's like asking what time it was at the moment of the big bang.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. Oh really? Why is that?
We understand why the concept of time before the big bang is meaningless - there are mathematical expressions behind it that grow out of well-established scientific fields.

So what kind of evidence do you have that the question in the OP is similar?
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Because concepts that are meaningful in some cases are meaningless in others.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #25
35. We can explain why when it comes to time and the big bang.
Can I get anything more out of you than a one-liner?
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. No.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. t zero
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
10. To us it can seem that way. /nt
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
12. Who needs god?
This post is false. And I always lie
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
14. Yes under two conditions:
Condition 1: Omnipotence, since it creates logically contradictory conditions.
Condition 2: God is small to have wave function properties.

The real question is if God can make an argument so circular that even he can't believe it.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
20. Logic concerns the orderly use of words to help us organize our thinking and conversation
But it has been known for thousands of years that one can craft sentences that defeat logic

That we can craft such sentences does not tell us anything at all about reality: it merely reminds us that we need to be wary in trusting our own discourse
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
26. I think I will try to shed some light on the disagreements in this forum, by discussing
the "absurdist" concept of negation

According to the "absurdist" view, a rational discourse involves certain statements that are regarded as "absurd." These might vary according to the particular conversation: say, '0 = 1' or 'John ran from New York City to San Francisco in less than a minute' or 'A pig differs from all the other trees, only in that a pig has wings.' A statement in the discourse is summarily dismissed, if it implies an absurdity: that is, if we have an implication of the form '<statement X> implies <some absurdity>' then we immediately back away in horror and put a big taboo sign on <statement X>; this taboo sign is generally called negation, and the 'backing away in horror' rule is codified by an inference:

from
'<statement X> implies <some absurdity>'
infer
'not <statement X>'

Now certain issues arise

What statements are to be regarded as absurd? A general answer to that question might be 'An absurdity is any statement with too many consequences' -- in keeping with the saying, "Well, that proves entirely too much!" This is why '0 = 1' is regarded as absurd, for example

And what are the rules governing negation?

Two popular rules are double negation and excluded middle. Double negation asserts that 'not (not <statement X> )' has the same meaning as '<statement X>.' Excluded middle asserts that '<statement X> or not <statement X>' is always a harmless assumption in discourse. But neither double negation nor excluded middle is at all obviously correct under the "absurdist" interpretation of negation. Excluded middle, for example, suggests that, for any <statement X>, we are either in the convenient position of being able to assert definitively '<statement X>' or else in the convenient position of being able to assert definitively '<statement X> implies <some absurdity>' -- but we seldom in either of the convenient positions. Moreover, any number of other very desirable reasoning rules would require us to accept both double negation and excluded middle, whenever we accepted one of them. It is common to accept both, declaring that all statements must be either true or false

But this view, that all statements must be either true or false, leads immediately into new swampy territory, where we can easily be mired: first, because we really want to use logic in the sciences -- where statements are never really unambiguously 'true' but are more properly speaking only 'approximately true,' some being (at best) rather 'more true' than others; second, because we have suddenly complicated the problem of discussing 'negation' by introducing new terms ('true' and 'false'), which themselves require explanation. The meanings of 'true' and 'false' are not obvious; one might think 'false' represents an abstraction of '<some absurdity>', extended to include all statements which imply an absurdity; then perhaps 'true' represents a converse notion, according to which one begins from some axioms, and considers 'true' the statements derivable from the axioms; but then one should be careful the axioms themselves cannot lead to an absurdity -- which, unfortunately, is impossible to check in general. Boolos, in fact, has a nice little book, that studies the consequences of interpreting 'true' as 'provable from a set of axioms' and 'false' as 'provable from <the same> set of axioms,' but then there is usually a vast unclaimed territory, of statements which are neither 'true' nor 'false' -- in other words, excluded middle does not hold

It seems to me that many posters in this forum regard omnipotent beings as "absurd" -- since such beings would (by definition) have limitless consequences, thus certainly must have "too many consequences," and so must be rejected as "absurd" (under the general philosophical view that such notions "prove entirely too much"). I have some sympathy for this view, I suppose, but the conclusion I would reach is somewhat different: logic, wonderful tool that it is, has certain limits, and some issues simply cannot be addressed by mere logic.

In any case, I can see why the question in the OP ("Can &c&c?") should admit a 'yes' or 'no' answer: it does not seem to me to involve a statement which must be 'true' or 'false.' (And neither can I see any way one could test a purported answer to the question, nor can I imagine any use to which a supposed answer could be put)
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. "some issues simply cannot be addressed by mere logic"
Special pleading!

I love these games. Can we play some more?
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Good morning, Trots! What insights are you bringing to the table today?
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Just pointing out fallacies!
You do tend to throw a few out in your pontifications.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. No ideas from you about the proper interpretation of negation?
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. That's not the problem.
Your special pleading is.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. I entered this thread to mention some issues in logic. So, have a greart day!
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. And mention them you did...
along with introducing your own. Nicely done!
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Sadena Meti Donating Member (332 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
37. Mathematically Simple
Edited on Wed Apr-27-11 08:05 PM by Sadena Meti
Two examples.

4^0.5=+-2

So 4^0.5=2 is true and false.



Other example (with a tribute to George Orwell)

2+2=5

On it's face, false.

But for sufficiently high values of two, such as 2.49, rounded to an integer is 2, the answer is 4.98, rounded to an integer is 5. So true.
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