So I've recently discarded what was left of my religious beliefs. Ask me anything.

[backscatter712]

For quite a while, my beliefs were in the nebulous area of "agnosticism", where I didn't care much for organized religion, but still figured there was some sort of higher power.

When I was younger, my beliefs were closer to traditional Presbyterian-style Christianity, of a relatively moderate flavor - I'd believed in Jesus Christ, went to church regularly, went to youth groups, that sort of thing.

But now? Count me as an atheist.

At best, I acknowledge the theoretical possibility of the existence of a god, but in the same way I acknowledge that the Tooth Fairy could theoretically exist. But I concluded that the real probability of God or the Tooth Fairy existing is extremely remote. And, well, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

What about morality? As it turns out, theists and atheists aren't all that different. Atheists are straightforward about how they think about morality - they use philosophy, sociology, psychology, and other areas of knowledge to piece together some ethics and morality that minimizes harm, keeps people living together without killing each other all that much, and allows people to live their lives freely.

Theists? They do the same thing. They claim they pull morality out of the Bible or Koran or whatever religious scriptures they believe in. But what's in those scriptures? Contradictions. The Bible says in one place "Thou shalt not kill." and "Love thy neighbor as thyself", but in other places, has God explicitly commanding killings and even genocide. The Bible, and other religious texts, are all over the map when it comes to morality. How do people resolve this? They do the same thing atheists do - they think up their own morals, but instead of discussing them straightforwardly, they pick and choose verses from their religious canons and use them to rationalize the moral choices they made.

But what made me cross the line from fuzzy agnosticism to atheism? Dan Barker, author of Godless. I saw him deliver a talk at my university, bought his book, got him to sign it. I think it was his talk about the inherent contradictions in the concept of a god. Can a god be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time? Think about it - if he's omniscient, he sees everything, including all things now, all things in the past, and all things in the future. But if he sees all things in the future, and knows how things are going to turn out, he sees his own choices and actions, and are limited to those actions - which makes him no longer omnipotent. Throw in morality. Can God be omniscient, omnipotent, and all good at the same time, given all the destruction and suffering in the world? I don't think so.

Part of it was also Barker's description of how he became an atheist - he was an evangelical preacher for 19 years, then concluded that God was not real, got out of the preaching business, and founded the Freedom From Religion Foundation. His story echoed mine - a slow realization over time that in things religious, things do not make sense. Even faith does not make sense - it's the opposite of reason and inquiry. I, like Barker, concluded that unquestioning faith leads to irrationality.

So I no longer believe in any religion. Ask me anything. The floor is yours.

[madmax]

1. Heavy

and interesting because I've been searching for a long time for faith or religion and have always felt - it just didn't make sense. Organized religion drives me nuts. All of them but, especially Catholic. Regardless of which church I tried if I asked a question I'd get a bullshit answer that didn't make sense to me, or a lecture on faith and to shut my mouth and open my ears.

Sorry, if there is a God he gave me a brain and I'm curious and need things to make sense. Then comes the 'you have to have faith.' <sigh>

Thanks for this post and the author of the book. I'm facing some serious health issues and I guess I want to cover all the bases just in case but, I am nearing the point that you've reached.

[backscatter712]

6. By all means, pick up a copy of Godless!

Richard Dawkins' book The God Delusion is also quite good!

One interesting tidbit that Dan Barker told us in his talk (I think it's also in the book.) To this day, Dan Barker can speak in tongues, and put himself in a state of altered consciousness where he can "feel God's presence". He just understands and acknowledges openly that it's all psychological, coming from brain chemistry, and not actually due to a divine presence.

[madmax]

9. Thanks, I've been meaning to get Dawkins' book.

I'll get them both. Funny how this came up maybe it's 'Divine Intervention.'

[EmilyKent]

2. How does freedom feel?

And congratulations on overcoming the programming btw!

[backscatter712]

3. Feels good!

Funny thing is while in college, I took a class on political theory where I read Simulacra and Simulation by Jean Baudrillard.

If religion is like a prison for the mind, like the Matrix, then I turned mine into a holodeck.

[handmade34]

4. no questions

but enjoyed your story... my conversion happened at Seminary. I was a candidate for ordination and was halfway through my MDIV... I still love what the church 'could' be and still wish I could minister to the masses

took the pic when I was in NOLA working at the free health clinic...

[backscatter712]

37. Now I keep thinking of John Lennon's "Imagine"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b7qaSxuZUg

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

[proteus_lives]

5. Ah, the zeal of the converted.

[EmilyKent]

13. The unconverted actually.

We are all atheists when we are born.

[cleanhippie]

40. Converted? I would say DEconverted...

or UNconverted, or enlightened, or...


But converted? Nope. Converted gives the sense that one exchanged one belief for another, when in reality, the OP gave UP belief altogether.

[proteus_lives]

48. That is what a true believer would say.

[cleanhippie]

50. What is?

Are we agreeing here or not? I can't tell!

[proteus_lives]

52. Your belief is your reality.

[cleanhippie]

53. Do you mean generally or specifically?

My general reality is that which I observe, can interact with and measure. Is that not yours?

I don't follow you if you mean that a belief, if not supported by empirical evidence, is still a reality. I would consider that a delusion.

[proteus_lives]

55. Exactly.

"I don't follow you if you mean that a belief, if not supported by empirical evidence, is still a reality. I would consider that a delusion."

That's the funny thing about these threads. Everyone's claiming something with no evidence.

[cleanhippie]

57. What claims are you referring to?

Originally, I was simply disagreeing with your use of the word "converted" and nothing more.

What claims are you referring to?

[proteus_lives]

60. People tend to claim absolutely on this issue.

There is a god, there isn't a god.

But no one has any evidence just belief.

[cleanhippie]

63. Sure, I see what you are getting at.

But, not believing in a god does not require any evidence, that is why I (for example) do not believe there is a god. Its the lack of evidence for those that do believe that is the problem.

I don't recall ever seeing anyone on DU stating for a fact, that there is no god. If they did, I would like to see that post.

[proteus_lives]

67. Sure.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Plenty of examples here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[cleanhippie]

68. Interesting.

I can certainly see where you would get that idea, but I can also see these posts as opinions. But I see your point.

Perhaps you can do what I do, and when someone makes what you feel is a statement of fact, ask for supporting evidence. It's only fair.

[Tikki]

7. Do you think you will get buyer's remorse?!...

I've never been a believer...Just thinking about all I'd have to give up by following any of it
makes me feel like I would want to find a way to get out of it quicker than later....


Tikki

[backscatter712]

11. I doubt it.

Casting aside dogma is indeed liberating - I can pretty much activate my mental holodeck and frame my view of the world however I want, turning it on and off like a switch.

[RKP5637]

8. Similar thoughts here, especially "unquestioning faith leads to irrationality." I follow

the golden rule, and that's worked well for me for decades and decades. The rest is common sense for me and trying to be an accepting tolerant person. We all can't be the same in the world, and what a boring place it would be IMO. Any spiritual sense I need comes from practicing Transcendental Meditation, occasionally. I don't consider myself a religious person, but pretty much a live and let live individual. I look at religion in general as being all about politics. I also am a Bright.

My cat thinks similarly to me!

[Warpy]

10. Do you feel lighter or lost?

I felt a lot lighter, but that was just me. Some people miss the sense of community and that's valid, too.

[backscatter712]

12. Lighter.

As far as sense of community goes, I've been pissed off and alienated from organized religion for years. I've get my community from elsewhere.

For example, I hang out a lot with the campus freethought group these days.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

14. Once again, when you see us as a little bitty dot in an incompressible

universe, It's hard to take religion seriously.

[RC]

28. Same here.

http://www.ciclops.org/view_media/25522/In_Saturns_Shad...

That dot at about the 9:30 position in the rings is us.

[Ozymanithrax]

15. I'm an agnostic. I don't sorta think there is a god.

I don't know if there is a god.
I see no evidence in religious text or the 70,000 year old idol of a snake in Tanzania that there there is a God.
Absence of evidence, however, is not absence of existance.
Somewhere in the Universe there may be a God.
I am open to surprise.

[emilyg]

16. I like your attitude.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

17. Absence of evidence for 70,000 years might lead you to be

at least, skeptical. I mean really, how much evidence do you need?

[Ozymanithrax]

43. To believe god exists, a hell of a lot more than I've seen, which is none...

To believe that there is no god at all...omnisience.

Since I am not omniscient, I remain willing to be surprised.

[Goblinmonger]

44. Sounds like you are an agnostic atheist.

You don't believe in any gods which puts you on the atheist side of that scale. But you don't claim knowledge which puts you on the agnostic side of that scale. Some refer to that as "soft atheist" as compared to "hard atheist."

[Ozymanithrax]

45. Agnostic by definition

ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)
n.
1. a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

This definition fits me perfectly. And at my age, nothing is as hard as I would like.

[Kablooie]

18. To me just the idea of an intelligent creator is a childish, simplistic concept.

Intelligence itself is something we have as protoplasmic beings but when you look at the complex and unknowableness of the universe it is too small and limited concept to define something that created every aspect of the universe.
We can begin to understand that the totality of the universe is beyond the capabilities of our intelligence but that's as comprehensive a concept as we will ever manage.
We continue to find new aspects of the universe but that's a far cry from understanding it's totality.
Just the details that science has dug up in the last few decades indicates that there is much more going on than any kind of 'intelligence' could conceive.
Evolution itself, I suppose, could be defined as a kind of intelligence so you might redefine the word 'intelligence' to mean whatever caused the creation of the universe but then you are playing with semantics and not really working with the accepted definition of 'intelligence'.

And as for the concept of "God", the definition of the word is so variable and vague that it could be applied or denied to almost any discussion so it's not really useful.

[K8-EEE]

19. Welcome to the club!

Happily godless since 2004!

[demwing]

20. Can a god be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time?

You say "he sees his own choices and actions, and are limited to those actions - which makes him no longer omnipotent."

Well, just suppose there were an omnipotent and omniscient being (which may or may not be an accurate description of "God" anyway). If such a being were possessed of all power, he/she would not be limited by seeing a specific set future actions, for such a being would also be able to see ALL past,present, and future realities that exist in a multi-verse. A truly omniscient being could see all realities, and an omnipotent being could easily follow all paths of reality simultaneously, and maintain perfect benevolence.

Reality is not linear, nor singular, and multi-verses are not the domain of the faith-based, but of the physicist.

Back to your question "Can a god be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time?" Yes, possibly, if such a thing were required of "God."

But how would it be possible for anyone that is neither omniscient or omnipotent to answer such a question correctly? Not that I'm expecting you to do so, or that I would be swayed by any answer, up or down.

I'm just surprised that you identified this (of all things) as some sort of moment of clarity and turning point.

[Critters2]

75. Exactly. I don't define God in those terms. That sort of listing of God's

attributes seems silly and irrelevant to me.

So the OP doesn't believe in a God who is omniscient and omnipotent. Neither do I. But I am a Theist.

[elias7]

21. Sadly, Mr Barker has a very western view of god

I would ask you if you've looked East-- taoism, buddhism, hinduism. God (or Gods) are just names for the ineffable, that which transcends our ability to name, conceive of, imagine or even think about. Is god omniscient, omnipotent, both, neither? Is god good? Is god male or female? How can god tolerate suffering. This is parochial thinking in the East. Before you reject the mystery of the cosmos, which is also the mystery of your own existence, consider a more abstract approach and do a little reading. You may find a very rich tradition brought down through the years by people smarter than Mr Barker.

With regard to badness done in the name of religion, I feel it is a cop out to blame religion. When I got married, I considered that 50% of marriages end in divorce, and wondered if I believed in marriage. I concluded that marriage becomes what you choose for it to be. If you treat it as sacred then it can be so. If you treat it as profane, you only cheapen it for yourself and your spouse.

Just because some hypocrite can do violence in the name of christ, does that invalidate his teachings? If you really believed in jesus christ, then you believed in his teachings. Do you no longer believe that you should do unto others you would have them do unto you? What's changed in the real lesson of living a spiritual and good life? Find another teacher...the buddha, mohammed, the tao, a yogi, yourself...whatever you need to arouse and maintain a sense of awe and gratitude before what is and will always be a mystery...

[beam me up scottie]

25. "Find another teacher" Why?

You act like something is missing from our lives.

[muriel_volestrangler]

29. It's strange you insist we must feel gratitude to something

And stranger still that you insist that thing will always be a mystery. If it will always be a mystery, how on earth do you know we must feel gratitude to it?

[elias7]

31. I'm not insisting you must do or feel anything

I'm merely presenting an alternative to the rejection of an anthropomorphic view of god. If we conceive of god concretely as an invisible man in the sky, who thinks like us and acts like us, then it is easy to conclude that most intelligent people will have a hard time buying the idea.

If we look at god as personification of the energies of the universe, as a symbol pointing past concrete representation to a mystery far greater than our ability to ever comprehend, then we are getting closer to the root of eastern religion. In yoga, in prayer, in any meditation, the goal is to lose the self and align with universal consciousness.

I don't pretend to be an eloquent describer of the eastern way, I just feel that many who become atheists have not been exposed to more sophisticated forms of religious thought. I don't insist anything of anybody. I merely offer another viewpoint for those who are interested in ontological ideas, the mystery of our existence, and our positioning or attitude towards that mystery.

I am awed and grateful when I consider that I am here, now, thinking, writing, conversing with you, alive, amidst the wondrous fall foliage, with the warm sun on the back of my head, and my beautiful wife and child downstairs. I can't explain any of it-- it is a mystery-- but I can resonate with it, feel connected to it, align with it, rejoice in the comic processes that led to this moment and hold onto this moment as long as I can remember to.... Is that strange?

[muriel_volestrangler]

35. The end of your post sure sounds like you are insisting

"Find another teacher...the buddha, mohammed, the tao, a yogi, yourself...whatever you need to arouse and maintain a sense of awe and gratitude before what is and will always be a mystery..."

It's in the imperative mood - "find...". And you talk about "whatever you need" - you are telling the thread starter they have a need, and they have to find whatever it takes to satisfy the need you claim. And it's need for a "sense of gratitude". If what you believe religion is about is 'universal consciousness', why should we be grateful to it? What has it done that it deserves thanks from us?

As for your rejection of an anthropomorphic god, I'm surprised you put Mohammed (no more eastern than Moses or Jesus) in your list of alternatives, when Islam is all about a personal god that is basically the same as the Christian god the thread starter has left behind - the disagreement between the two centres just on the divinity of one human. And the religions of south and east Asia still have a tendency to anthropomorphise their gods and add in various supernatural beings and events.

[elias7]

59. The OP seems to me to be searching...

...said the floor was mine, and I offered a path that perhaps had not been considered. Sorry about the imperative-seeming tone. I meant to convey a friendly, "Hey Buddy, why don't you check this out" rather than an exhortation to any little-t truth I might have found.

With regard to awe and gratitude, I was merely parroting Joseph Campbell's definition of mythology/religion. I was not stating as you might paraphrase, "Backscatter712, I judge that you are in need of a sense of gratitude for universal consciousness," I was offering a definition of religion that perhaps he/she had not been exposed to, and that might be helpful on his/her search.

When you ask what has "it" done that deserves thanks from us, what do you mean by it? If you are referring to what you think I think god is? I don't take my initial or ongoing existence for granted. I feel an overwhelming sense of gratitude, though I can't say where that gratitude it is directed exactly.

I must have been unclear in my references to jesus and to mohammed. I was talking about two different things. I am not a christian, but I find the value of christianity to me is in the life and teachings of christ, which speak strongly to me on an ethical/moral level. I see the garden of eden & heaven and hell as metaphorical constructs that speak to the state of mind one may focus on to live and die with grace and honor. Clearly, these teachings were not sufficient for the OP and alternatives were sought. I brought up mohammed as another paragon through which one can find a spiritual state.

You say the religions of south and east asia anthropormophize their gods. Are you referring to hinduism and buddhism and their variations/offshoots? In hinduism, for example, shiva and vishnu are considered gods, yes, but they are also looked at as mere inflections of brahman, which "is the eternal, unchanging, infinite, immanent, and transcendent reality which is the Divine Ground of all matter, energy, time, space, being, and everything beyond in this Universe." (according to wiki)

I am told that the reason that their are so many kinds of yoga is because owing to different temperaments, people need different types of meditations for the practice to work for them. There are yogas based on knowledge, based on action, based on devotion, based on stillness and spirituality...

Perhaps many of us need to anthropomorphize, to have a concept of god in our image or a conceivable image, a masculine or feminine form, an omnipotent or omniscient form. Yet when our expectations are broken, we may reject that image, and reject god as an imaginable form. What then? This is where christianity, judaism and islam seem to lack answers unless one studies the mystical fringes of these traditions. But it is at this point where the eastern traditions really carry their power.

Like I said, I'm not saying anything new or original. I'm (perhaps badly) trying to say that the crises in faith many have in the west, when our expectations are outgrown or unmet (why would we still believe in god, when there is evil in the world, or when we're told our other imaginary friends aren't real-- the tooth fairy, santa claus, fairies and angels and demons), have been addressed and are integral parts of other religious traditions that most of us are unfamiliar with.

[Jokerman]

61. I don't see where you get that the OP was "searching".

"Count me as an Atheist" sounds like a destination, not a request for directions.

Your post can be summed up as "the only reason you haven't found god is that you haven't looked hard enough."

It's the old soft-sell, but it's still a sales pitch.

[elias7]

64. wow, tough crowd

count me out

[onager]

70. You think we're tough?

One of the strangest delusions of the Western mind is to the effect that a philosophy of profound wisdom is on tap in the East. I have read a great many expositions of it, some by native sages and the rest by Western enthusiasts, but I have found nothing in it save nonsense.

It is, fundamentally, a moony transcendentalism... It bears no sort of relation to the known facts, and is full of assumptions and hypotheses that every intelligent man must laugh at. In its practical effects it seems to be as lacking in sense and as inimical to human dignity as Methodism, or even Mormonism...

The so-called Philosophy of India is even more blowsy and senseless than the metaphysics of the West. It is at war with everything we know of the workings of the human mind, and with every sound idea formulated by mankind.

If it prevailed in the whole modern world we'd still be in the Thirteenth Century; nay, we'd be back among the Egyptians of the pyramid age.

As a longtime L.A. resident, I especially like the next quote:

The so-called Philosophy of India has found its natural home in Los Angeles, the capital of American idiots.

Nowhere else, so far as I know, is there any body of Theosophists left, and nowhere else has there ever been any substantial following for Yogi. All the quacks who advertise to teach Yogi in twenty lessons for $2, and all the high priests of the other varieties of Indian balderdash have their headquarters in Los Angeles, which is also the Rome of the American Rosicrucians.

Bonus Quotes!

The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind.

The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake.

All quotes by H.L. Mencken (1880-1956), apparently an early adopter of Militant Atheism...

[elias7]

72. Interesting...

The spiritual aspects notwithstanding, practically speaking there is no benefit to the east, given the long history of violence done in the name of these practices... who will ever forget the hindu crusades, the buddhist inquisition, and the taoist jihads.

[backscatter712]

74. I dunno - Hindu fundies can be just as batshit as Christian fundies or Islamic fundies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_of_Babri_Masjid

[unorthodox]

73. It's a lot easier these days to be an atheist.

It's more of a challenge to believe in something that could go by the name God. Especially if you are a thoughtful person who believes in science and reason. Yet I think on some level we all know that there is an ultimate reality that science is not yet able to fully describe and probably never will. All religions are attempts to describe that and none get it right, but that does not mean it does not exist.

[Chulanowa]

22. Welcome aboard!

I was raised Methodist / Baptist (Depended on which Sunday it was!) but I could never "get" the whole deal. That original sin thing? Absolutely alien to me, I still don't understand how someone could come up with such an idea, much less swallow it down. And of course without original sin, there's no reason for the whole crucifixion thing (which always brought its own slew of puzzles - why would god need to have himself sacrificed to himself so he could alieve a curse he put down in the first place?) And so of course, there was no way I could really do more than lip service.

I tried, too. Spent most of my teen years trying to "find religion" 'cause, well, where I lived if you weren't religious, you were abnormal. I even flirted with Islam for a bit simply because it was a "real" religion that lacked the original sin mess. That never did go anywhere.

At some point I realized that I was just running myself ragged and getting nowhere. Eventually I started picking up stuff from my mother (who in an awkward about-face had rediscovered Wicca, go figure) and my own ancestor's beliefs.

I am functionally atheist - I have no belief in any sort of divinity. However culturally I'm pagan / shamanistic. It causes a bit of a dichotomy, and I know some of what I practice is irrational, but it "works." Of course explaining the hodgepodge of what I've developed for myself is way too damn much work, so I just carry on while calling myself an atheist. I'm still heavily interested in the notions of religion and spirituality, but primarily because of the cultural knowledge I get out of it.

So. Glad you've found a comfortable seat on this long train ride

[14thColony]

23. Congratulations

I just read The God Delusion, and I'll look for Barker's book as well.

I'd long characterized myself as an atheist still clinging to the cliff of agnosticism. Early this year I let go and took the final plunge into full-time rationality. So far, so good.

By the way, have you ever seen this quote? I think it sums up at least the Abramahic god pretty well, and plenty of others also:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him "God"?
- Attributed to the Greek philosopher Epicurus

[backscatter712]

33. Barker's background is unique.

Like I mentioned, he grew up being deeply religious, and was an evangelical preacher for 19 years (one of THOSE preachers, that you wouldn't want to bump into on a bus - the really obnoxious kind).

It was only later that he started realizing the inherent contradictions, saw through the brainwashing, and became an atheist. Like I said, he knows the mindset, and can speak in tongues to this day (realizing that it's a psychological phenomenon.)

He gives quite a bit of insight as to both the mind of a devoutly religious person, and the mind of an atheist.

[14thColony]

58. I look forward to reading him

I was raised an extremist independent fundamentalist (Southern) Baptist, and therefore have some insights into that mindset, altough not to the extent of a preacher with decades of experience like him. I'll have to get it.

[Nay]

24. Welcome to the club! I differ only in the fact that I became an

atheist at a very young age -- about 6 -- but of course didn't know that I was one. It all seemed so silly to me, and my distrust of adults solidified when I found out most of them actually believed the religious stuff. Dang! Grow up, willya???

[beam me up scottie]

26. Congrats!

Born an atheist, never believed, just spent my life going .

[intaglio]

27. Essential links for the Atheist/Agnostic

The Skeptics Annotated Bible http://skepticsannotatedbible.com /

Some More Observed Instances of Speciation http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html

An Index to Creationist Claims http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc /

Religious Tolerance dot Org http://www.religioustolerance.org/aboutus.htm

[madmax]

30. Question

I have a habit of saying to someone in appreciation or certain circumstances - Bless you, God Bless You, and such. What do you say? Yes, Thank you is still cool but, sometimes it seems to me that something beyond me is need to be interjected, a third party with awesome power. When I'm told someone died I've used, Sorry for you loss.

Sorry to be so simplistic the meds make me goofy and my son just moved here from NJ and my brain if FRIED. Geez, I feel like such a jackass. Well, that's ok - I'm a Democrat.

[backscatter712]

32. Religion is infused heavily into our culture.

So I'm not gonna take offense or anything like that - either you're a believer that says "Bless you" - which doesn't bother me, or you're a non-believer who says "Bless you!", either through default usage of a meme - which doesn't bother me, or deliberate irony, which is awesome.

[madmax]

Got it

I've just always felt like such a hypocrite for saying it when in my head and heart I'm not feeling it 100%.

[madmax]

34. dupe

[intaglio]

36. Doesn't everybody? Well I do

If it is any consolation. No one expects any human to be completely consistent (except a certain non-existent deity who shall be nameless)

[madmax]

38. True, and I have this complex

or personality disorder - I must be perfect or die trying. What a bummer - and a waste of a lot of time, enjoyment, etc.

[Deep13]

49. Yeah, I never say that.

"Thanks" or "I appreciate that" is usually what I say. Maybe it is a regional thing, but even when I was a Christian, I never said "bless you" as a matter of course.

Jackasses are underrated.

[madmax]

39. In real life

it's hard to let it all hang out and have a discussion like this, in my world anyway. So this is so refreshing and calming.

[cleanhippie]

42. Why is that?

Will the people around you shun you for it?

[madmax]

65. No, not much but, they sure do want to 'save' me.

I've lived all my life in NJ and worked most of my life in NYC. We moved to NC 3 years ago and people here are a bit more religious than up north. I've made friends with a neighbor who when you walk into their kitchen there is a huge picture of JC with the crown of thorns and blood dripping down his face. The Bible is on the table and they talk a lot about religion. They're originally from NJ, too.

Anyway they aren't pushy about religion and invited me to church, which I politely declined. I ask a lot of questions because they aren't crazy right wing evangelical types. I think they're Baptist's but, not the conservative branch

I've never gone to any one church for long. I've read The Sermon on the Mount by Emmett Fox, which made some sense to me. The DaVinci Code which I loved - I know it's not suppose to be true, but makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than the church dogma. My Mom wasn't a church goer but she believed in God and that JC was the son of God - and all the rest. She was Catholic but, change to Protestant because she didn't believe in all the confessing to a Priest, sit, stand, kneel, rituals and all the rest of the bull.

Personally, I believe that Jesus was a mortal man with a very high degree of consciousness. Understanding the mentality of the people at that time and tried through parables to make the world a better place. Jesus Christ Superstar.

[cleanhippie]

41. Welcome to the real world, my friend...

Reality is such a great place, and will only keep getting better for you.

Congrats!

[DeSwiss]

46. K&R

"I do understand what love is, and that is one of the reasons I can never again be a Christian. Love is not self denial. Love is not blood and suffering. Love is not murdering your son to appease your own vanity. Love is not hatred or wrath, consigning billions of people to eternal torture because they have offended your ego or disobeyed your rules. Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being." ~ Dan Barker, Losing Faith in Faith

[Deep13]

47. How can I keep squirrels away from my bird feeders?

I have baffles and a metal feeder with the weight-sensitive lid, but they always seem to find away around them. I feed the squirrels at the other end of the yard. I suspect all I'm doing there is helping support numerous new squirrrels. Their population expands to fill the food supply.

[DeSwiss]

51. While not always 100% effective against A DETERMINED SQUIRREL......

...I'm told that some have had success with the Slinky <----(ya gotta watch this vid. It's a hoot!)

[beam me up scottie]

54. Get a Droll Yankee Flipper Feeder.

Easily worth the extra $$ for the entertainment value alone.

[madmax]

66. lol nt

[laconicsax]

56. Why do you hate America?

[HarveyDarkey]

62. What took you so long?

n/t

[Lost-in-FL]

69. Doesn't it feel good?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

71. good for you.

Thank you for taking that walk to true self-respect.

Original sin and substitutionary atonement are two of the most pernicious, crippling lies ever perpetuated on humanity, in my opinion. A non-existent problem that has an unnecessary solution. Completely irrational and based on a fairy tale about a couple of fruit-munching idiots.


I'm glad you found out about the triple paradox of Epicurus.


Secular humanism says people can do great things without any gods.