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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 09:02 PM
Original message
Heaven and Hell
Hell is a great grand banquet hall. The architecture, furnishings, art and fittings are exquisite. Cosy not intimidating, plush carpets and rich rugs, a masterpiece of comfort and design. The banquet table is not too large. It is festooned and arrayed with the most delectable food and drink imaginable. Anything your palate desires appears and is replenished. Delicacies abound, Haute cuisine and Moms best meals, all there in abundance along with divine fruits and flavors never previously experienced. Wines and juices the mere scent of which would make one weeping drunk with joy

If not for the fetid stink from the piles of moldering decomposing food and the unbearable noise of wailing and gnashing of teeth in frustration
For none of the denizens of Hell can bend their arms at the elbowand all desperately flick food and drink into the air from flapping hands at the ends stiff arms and run mouth agape to catch a scrap or drop or tiny morsel.

Heaven is exactly the same environment as Hell in every regardeven down to the inability to bend arms at the elbow.
But in heaven there is a gentle whispering murmur as its denizens offer each other- Would you like to try some
May I pour you a drop of May I wipe your chin for you..with food and drink and serviettes proffered to each other with outstretched arms.

It doesnt stink and theres no mess and they can hear Elvis and Janis sing their duet ;-)
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. You made me cry. I was okay, until the last line.
:grouphug:
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. And in Hell
you give the after dinner speech, yes?
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Oh hell noI get to shovel the ice and snow as the place freezes over...
waiting for your intellectual argument to demonstrate its capacity for sustaining itself under real scrutiny.

;-)
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. Heaven is socialism?
People helping each other?
And Hell is the Republicans utopia? Everyone for themselves?
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Socialism.......... or The Golden Rule?


Putting oneself in the place of another,
Buddhism.

Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself.
Bahai faith

Do to others as you want them to do to you.

In everything, do to others what you would want them to do to you. This is what is written in the Law and in the Prophets
Christianity

That which you want for yourself, seek for mankind.

None of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.
Islam
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vixengrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
5. I appreciate the distinction--the difference is the company.
The Hell described is "every man for himself" and the Heaven is a place where people can see not just what they want, but what others need, and by making that connection, make their situation better by mutual cooperation. It's an analogy that relates I think more to how we can sometimes make our lives here a little better by changing our perspective--that much I can dig.

I think the "Heaven and Hell" setting loses a lot of people who don't have a literal belief in the afterlife, or who would find fault in a god who would so arrange things such that we aren't self-sufficient--it's not a pretty image, and it does imply that those the conventional church would damn, would be in that fetid place of noncooperation,etc. Even if we all are trying the best we can, and do understand the application of what the analogy teaches here and now.

No man is an island. You are your brother's keeper. Etc. It's formulaic, and trite, and aphoristic, and maybe true enough that I'll admit I get it.

For me it isn't Elvis and Janis--it'll be Roy Orbison and Patsy Cline. That would have been a duet. Or Freddy Mercury and Dusty Springfield. Those are voices for the ages.

But not in Heaven--in the mind. And our unbending arms--we don't always know ourselves, but we can still serve others. I have no hopes or expectations about the "way up yonder"--but I understand we are all in it together in the here and now.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
7. Or Hell is an orange bicycle...
...and Heaven is a self-retracting steel tape measure, marked off in cubits.

Less in line with traditional notions, sure, no more or less grounded in reality.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. +1
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. You have a gift for imagery. Run with it. nt
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Its not Haiku.but its getting there ;-) n/t
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
8. Looks like there's a poet in the house. Nice work.
Lots of places to go with that. The first thing I thought about was the horrible waste caused by overweening self interest. The erosion of the commons is there. If we would help someone but an arms length away, the world would be a much better place.

But I lived in Memphis too long to dig Elvis. A little Thelonious Monk would be nice.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
10. ... I sent my Soul through the Invisible, some letter of that afterlife to spell
And by and by my Soul returned to me, and answered I Myself am Heaven and Hell

The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam
http://classics.mit.edu/Khayyam/rubaiyat.html
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Thanks Struggle.that took me back a ways.
The Rubaiyat was the first poem that (at nerdy 15 ;-) I attempted to memorise.
Got as far as the first verse
Awake, for morning in the bowl of night
Has flung the stone that sets the stars to flight
And Lo the Hunter in the East
Has caught the Sultans turret in a noose of light

Struck me at the time as a non economical way of saying- Suns up, get up!

Thanks for the memory prod.

Last night,
I saw the realm of joy and pleasure.
There I melted like salt;
no religion, no blasphemy,
no conviction or uncertainty remained.
In the middle of my heart,
a star appeared,
and the seven heavens were lost in its brilliance.
Rumi.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. Stop it! The irony is killing me!
:rofl:
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. So youve seen the news that atheist meetings invite Scientologists to explain E-Meters?
:rofl:


I always find that irony is best served large and cold with clear crisp display rather than a vague luke warm oblique reference to a morsel that never comes in sight.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Well, you served up a nice one. Well done! n/t
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Bon apptit Napkins..? n/t
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
18. Except there are no decent musicians in heaven
Even if in some strange world the two mentioned should be called musicians, they were both hedonistic druggies and fornicators. Hellbound for sure. Along with Mozart, Wagner, Beethoven, Liszt.

Heaven gets Elgar if they are lucky.
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I am endlessly fascinated by atheist certainties. n/t
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. They're just like agnostic certainties. n/t
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. I'm endlessly fascinated by pseudo-agnostics' lack of humor NT
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Ah!...the Theist in the Closet meme/theme...that's funny ;-)
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. No - "somebody who thinks agnosticism is an ontological position not epistemological" 'meme' NT
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #41
45.  Can you say what certainties are held by ontological position of agnosticism
?

;-)
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ChadwickHenryWard Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. What really got me was how awful Janis and Elvis would sound together.
Even if you liked both of them (I personally despise Elvis,) who would want to hear them both at the same time?
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ChadwickHenryWard Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
20. Why don't the people in hell just help each other?
Then they would get to enjoy all that great food.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Exactly
That's the point, isn't it?

When people think of other people and seek to help them, everyone is in a better place.
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ChadwickHenryWard Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Yeah, I know cooperation is better.
I'm just asking Ironbark why the people in hell are so comically inept. What prevents them from helping each other like the people in heaven other than over-the-top stupidity? I can't gain any understanding from the metaphor if I can't get through it without laughing. And not to put too fine a point on it, but I already know that helping people is good. I didn't learn anything from it anyway. I was hoping that maybe there was something more there that I had missed.
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Why is Wall St "comically inept"?
I'm just asking Ironbark why the people in hell are so comically inept.

Have you been following the food price crisis in caused by the rise in the price of wheat? The wheat price has been stable for about 150 years, no dramatic spike. Then suddenly it went up over the last few years, millions slipped under the hunger/poverty line, major unprecedented (modern era) food riots in several countries.
No one could work out what happenedat first they thought it was drought related, or drought in combination with the shift to bio fuel crops.now they have worked it out.
Fucking Wall St.
The Masters of the Universe worked out a scam for making shitloads of money by driving up the price of wheatanother sub prime/ponzy scheme rip off only this time people dont lose their houses they starve.

I'm just asking Ironbark why the people in hell are so comically inept.

What would you like me to tell you?....FUCKING GREED AND STUPIDITY.or FUCKING STUPIDITY AND GREED?


"Destabilizing influences, including indiscriminate lending and real estate speculation, led to a crisis in January 2008, and eroded investment in food commodities.<4> The United States, specifically, had been facing an economic crisis that eventually lead to recession.<25><26><27>Financial speculation in commodity futures following the collapse of the financial derivatives markets has contributed to the crisis due to a "commodities super-cycle." Financial speculators seeking quick returns have removed trillions of dollars from equities and mortgage bonds, some of which has been invested into food and raw materials.<28> That American commodities speculation could have a worldwide impact on food prices is reflected in the globalization of food production. It represents the concentration of wealth throughout the world, which Frances Moore Lapp equates to a weakening in fundamental democracy. In a recent article for The Nation, she suggests that there is no food shortage but that "as long as food is merely a commodity in societies that don't protect people's right to participate in the market, and as long as farming is left vulnerable to consolidated power off the farm, many will go hungry, farmers among themno matter how big the harvests."<29>
Wiki (outlining the basics...more has since been revealed)
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. I found the link.
Edited on Tue Aug-03-10 09:02 AM by Jim__
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932008_world_fo...

I want to read more on that story. - Thanks.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. You can label it greed and stupidity, but the problem is more complex.
Peter Singer challenges us with an a somewhat well-known example that demonstrates the problem:


Imagine you come across a small child who has fallen into a pond and is in danger of drowning. You know that you can easily and safely rescue him, but you are wearing an expensive pair of shoes that will be ruined if you do. It would be wrongmonstrous, in factto walk on past the pond, leaving the child to drown, because you dont want to have to buy a new pair of shoes. You cant compare a childs life with a pair of shoes!

Yet while we all say that it would be wrong to walk past the child, there are other children whose lives we could save just as easilyand yet we dont. UNICEF, the United Nations Childrens Fund, estimates that nearly 9 million children under 5 die each year from causes related to poverty. Thats 24,000 a daya football stadium full of young children, dying every day (along with thousands of older children and adults who die from poverty every day as well). Some die because they dont have enough to eat or clean water to drink. More die from measles, malaria, diarrhea and pneumoniadiseases that dont exist in developed nations, or if they do, are easily cured and rarely fatal.



Human nature is such that we react to immediate problems, visible problems, and, unfortunately, are unable to react to all the problems in the world. If I am aware, intimately aware, of all the children in the world who are starving, and try to react to that, I will probably cause my on children to starve, because the problems are overwhelming, and my contribution to resolving them is necessarily small.

Singer does give us ways around this problem, e.g. contribute 10% of your income toward resolving this problem. He is right. We ought to (are morally obligated to?) follow his recommendation. This will help, but unless the percentage of people contributing to the solution is large, the problem will remain.
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I think that misses the point of the specific case Jim.
We have always had poverty and hunger as a consequence of inequity and indifferencepossibly always will.

But the global food crisis was caused directly by an act of profound greed and stupidity that drove millions under the poverty/hunger line.

It was a Wall St scam and rip offa very nasty piece of straight arm knocking the food out of others mouths.

It was not walking past the pond and ignoring the drowning child.it was picking him up, throwing him in and holding his head under with a stick.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. IMHO you're still oversimplifying.
Here's the opening paragraph from what I believe is the article you got your information from:

Systemic causes for the worldwide increases in food prices continue to be the subject of debate. Initial causes of the late 2006 price spikes included droughts in grain-producing nations and rising oil prices. Oil price increases also caused general escalations in the costs of fertilizers, food transportation, and industrial agriculture. Root causes may be the increasing use of biofuels in developed countries (see also food vs fuel),<1> and an increasing demand for a more varied diet across the expanding middle-class populations of Asia.<2><3> These factors, coupled with falling world-food stockpiles all contributed to the worldwide rise in food prices.<4> Causes not commonly attributed by mainstream views include structural changes in trade and agricultural production, agricultural price supports and subsidies in developed nations, diversions of food commodities to high input foods and fuel, commodity market speculation, and climate change.


The paragraph on food speculation causing this crisis is not explicit as to exactly what the mechanism was, exactly how this speculation caused this large increase in the price of food. And, at the very least, there were other factors involved.
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. No oversimplification at all, unregulated Wall St is as guilty as hell..
26# (and Wiki quote) provided background and the uncertainty at the time-
at first they thought it was drought related, or drought in combination with the shift to bio fuel crops.now they have worked it out.

It is now clear and simple, unregulated Wall St took 150 years of stable commodity prices and, through greed and stupidity, drove the price of food >up< in the face of ample supply.



FREDERICK KAUFMAN: Yeah, this is reallyits really outrageous. And on a certain level, this reform bill is really a sham, because it does not cover, in any way, shape or form, what Goldman Sachsand really, lets be honest here, it wasnt just Goldman; it was Goldman, and it was Bear, and it was AIG, and it was Lehman, it was Deutsche, it was all across the board, JPMorgan Chasewhat these banks were able to do in commodity markets, really which reached its peak from 2005 to 2008, in what is now known as the food bubble. And as Juan points out, this is unconscionable what happened, in the sense that their speculation and their restructuring of these commodity markets pushed 250 million new people into food insecurity and starving, and brought the world total up to over a billion people. This is the most abysmal total {fuckup?}in the history of the world.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/7/16/the_food_bubble_h...



"The food crisis shares many characteristics of the financial meltdown it was exacerbated by the deregulation of the commodity markets (including agriculture) that encouraged a tidal wave of Wall Street speculation leading to further increases in already rising food and energy prices.
Over the past two decades, the safeguards that prevented excessive speculation from distorting the futures markets were eroded or eliminated.

The commodity markets that provided an arena for producers of raw commodities like corn, wheat, oil and metals to find buyers were largely transformed into markets that traded new financial products.

The New Deal-era regulations that were supposed to prevent excess speculation on food commodities were weakened to allow more Wall Street investment houses to pour money onto the commodity exchanges and new, unregulated or self-regulated electronic markets cropped up outside the authority of government oversight.

As the housing and stock markets stalled in 2007 and 2008, more money migrated into the commodities markets."

http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/food/report/casino-of-... /


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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Almost everything I read includes speculation as*a* factor, not *the* factor.
Edited on Thu Aug-05-10 10:52 AM by Jim__
For example(https://www.aplu.org/NetCommunity/Document.Doc?id=867 ):

Additional pressures have emerged recently.

Using corn to produce biofuels increases the demand for corn and appears to increase its
price as well. My understanding is that this is roughly the view held by the USDAs
Chief Economist. It is not easy to sort out biofuels impact on food prices. I note that the
International Monetary Funds World Economic Outlook states that biofuels account for
almost half of the increase in consumption of major food crops in 2006-2007.

Higher fuel prices have increased food production costs. For example, high energy costs
greatly increase the costs of producing fertilizer, transporting food and operating farms.

Troubled bond and security markets have increased the money flowing into commodity
markets. Liquidity and depth in the commodity futures markets are generally forces of
stability over time and therefore positive influences in the longer term for
users/consumers and farmers/sellers of grains. Accordingly, we have to take care in
imposing regulations of these important markets so we do not distort their positive
contributions to the stability of commodity trading.

Grain reserves have declined from a high of 100 days of global consumption in 2000 to
55 days currently and that has created a greater sense of market risk and an inability to
buffer market fluctuations.

There is drought in Australia and new export restrictions by a number of governments
that do not allow markets to function efficiently.


And:

A number of immediate factors include the following:

Droughts in major wheat-producing countries in 2005-06
Low grain reserves (according to Holt-Gimnez and Peabody, we have less than 54 days worth, globally)
High oil prices
A doubling of per-capita meat consumption in some developing countries
Diversion of 5% of the worlds cereals to agrofuels.

The above range of issues have been the subject of much mainstream media attention. For example, there has been some debate as to how much of an impact the recent rise in biofuels has actually contributed to the rising prices.


However, as Holt-Gimnez and Peabody importantly add, all these causes are only the proximate causes of food price inflation. These factors do not explain whyin an increasingly productive and affluent global food systemnext year up to one billion people will likely go hungry. To solve the problem of hunger, we need to address the root cause of the food crisis: the corporate monopolization of the worlds food systems.

What the authors are alluding to is the following:

The dominance of the richer nations and companies in the international arena has had a tremendous impact on agriculture, which, for many poor countries forms one of the main sources of income. A combination of unfair trade agreements, concentrated ownership of major food production, dominance (through control and influence in institutions such as the World Bank, IMF and the World Trade Organisation) has meant that poor countries have seen their ability to determine their own food security policies severely undermined.

Policies such as structural adjustment demanded by these institutions meant most developing countries had to not only cut back on health and education, but food stamps and other support for the very poor. Trade barriers and other support mechanisms for local industry were also often required to be removed, allowing foreign companies to more easily compete, often being at an advantage as they would typically be larger multinationals with more resources and experiences.


I'm not sure exactly what speculation contributes. It contributes something, but it is not the entire story.

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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. How Wall Street starved millions and got away with it

By Frederick Kaufman

http://harpers.org/archive/2010/07/0083022

The history of food took an ominous turn in 1991, at a time when no one was paying much attention. That was the year Goldman Sachs decided our daily bread might make an excellent investment.


-
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/06/0082533

The stories varied in focus and emphasis but employed the same basic plot points: biofuel production, caterpillar plagues, commodity speculation, crop disease, drought, dwindling stockpiles, fear, flood, hoarding, war, and an increasing world appetite for meat and dairy had bubbled into a nasty poison. Every day, another 25,000 people starved to death or died from hunger-related disease: every four seconds, another corpse. Rising prices for corn, cooking oil, rice, soybeans, and wheat had sparked riots in Bangladesh, Cameroon, Cte dIvoire, Egypt, Ethiopia, Haiti, Indonesia, and nineteen other countries. Not to mention Milwaukee, where a food voucher line of nearly 3,000 people descended into chaos. (They just went crazy down there, said one witness. Just totally crazy.)
Oddly enough, almost none of the food riots had emerged from a lack of food. There was plenty of food. The riots had been generated by the lack of money to buy food, and therein lay what may have distinguished todays hunger from the hunger of years past. Therein lay the substance of the Rome conference.
..
The dates reveal the emerging facts of the scam as *the* factor. Your links are from 2008 when the facts were not known.
Kaufman has been following the Food Crisis since the speculation you linked to and has written the book (The Food Bubble) on the central/key/major factor of Wall Streets fucking up the food market.

Wondering why the obfuscation to that (now well known and accepted) reality?
(Both the BBC and ABC Radio National have covered the scam.you have not heard of it?)

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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. From today's news: Move by one of the world's largest exporters helps drive up grain prices
Source.


MOSCOW Russia announced Thursday that it would ban grain exports through the end of the year, a response to a scorching drought that has destroyed millions of acres of Russian wheat and hobbled the countrys agricultural revival.

The ban on grain exports by Russia, one of the worlds largest wheat producers, helped propel wheat prices in the United States toward their highest levels in nearly two years and raised the prospect that consumers could pay more for products like flour and bread as Russia tries to conserve its supplies of wheat, barley and other grains for its own people.

In announcing the ban, which is in force from Aug. 15 to Dec. 31, Prime Minister Vladimir V. Putin said that Russia had sufficient stockpiles of grain but that blocking exports was an appropriate response to the worst drought in decades.

We need to prevent a rise in domestic food prices, we need to preserve the number of cattle and build up reserves for the next year, he said during a televised cabinet meeting, according to The Associated Press. As the saying goes: reserves dont make your pocket heavy.


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ChadwickHenryWard Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Wait, what?
I never said anything about Wall Street, and neither did you. This analogy has no bearing on Wall Street whatsoever. The people in hell have nothing to gain and everything to lose by refusing to help others. Any four-year-old could point out that the only way to eat the food is by cooperation. It needn't be out of altruism or concern for others; even pure greed would dictate the quid pro quo of feeding each other. There is absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so.

The people on Wall Street, however, are in exactly the opposite situation from your story. They are not harmed by refusing to help others; far from it. They become fabulously wealthy by buying and selling the lives of other people. They are greedy, but not stupid.

I would like make a further constructive criticism of your analogy: people rarely refuse to help others out of sheer malice and stupidity. They generally have some good reason, whether real or perceived, to do wrong by others, be it greed, fear, ignorance, or what have you. The damned in your story have absolutely no reason not to help the people around them, and a very good reason to go ahead and do so. This makes the story unrealistic and not very informative.
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Strange. I never said or suggested you or I said anything about Wall Street.
No quote, no reference prior to answering your question re why the people in hell are so comically inept.

You seem to hold the conception that hell is a location, a place to be in. The story and my pov is that hell is a condition and/or set of behaviours. Those involved in the Wall St ponzi scheme that drove millions into hunger are reflective of that condition/behaviour- greed and stupidity- hell.

This analogy has no bearing on Wall Street whatsoever.

It is a story, an analogyand as such wide open to interpretation. You see no bearing connection between the blind self cantered behaviour of the hell characters and the blind self cantered behaviour of some crooked commodities tradersok.

The people on Wall Street, however, are in exactly the opposite situation from your story.

The hell characters are clinically narcissistic, just want to get some/more in, oblivious to the needs of others.
The Wall St traders engaged in the scheme are clinically narcissistic, just want to get some/more in, oblivious to the needs of others.

Like I saidit is a story/analogynot a dovetail joint between life and an account thereof.

They generally have some good reason, whether real or perceived, to do wrong by others, be it greed, fear, ignorance

So to greed and stupidity you add fear and transplant ignorance instead of stupidityok.

.people rarely refuse to help others out of sheer malice and stupidity.

Wait a minute..I said greed and stupidity..said nothing about malice.

The damned in your story have absolutely no reason not to help the people around them.

Except being damned by the inability to perceive the needs of others or even recognise their own best interests.
You dont believe such conditions/behaviours are manifest in the world?...Think it unrealistic?

Ok.
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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 02:05 AM
Response to Original message
25. Don't quit your day job.
n/t
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. His day job is probably not plaigirizing. NT
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. You are not from the Law Firm- Snide, Smarmy and Supercilious.are you?
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #34
40. Nah - I just give credit when I borrow from well known writings. NT
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Good for you. I heard the story as an anecdote in a pub. You need a link?
Or are you that guy who screams Stolen Riff! every time a piece of sampled music comes on?
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
37. It's direct applicibility is not the point.
The OP is a story. A work of fiction. It is supposed to inspire us to think about the value of selfless generosity and compassion and the consequences of refusing to do so. That's all.

Doesn't anybody read fiction any more?
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Old Troop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
46. Hey! That was pretty good
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