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Editor of American Atheist magazine claims church/christian daycare a form of child abuse.

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cags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:23 AM
Original message
Editor of American Atheist magazine claims church/christian daycare a form of child abuse.
Read the whole post here
www.dogmadebate.com


"In short, by starting your child off in a Christian environment, you are heading them down a path of forced ignorance. At least let your child begin in a secular world, and if he or she chooses Christianity after an age of accountability, then so be it. But forcing them to learn things as fact that you don't even know to be true is a form of child abuse: inducing psychosis with thoughts of good and evil watching over them, as if they are constantly being graded and evaluated. It's bad for positive self-esteem, and slows social development later in life."
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. kids have to be domesticated and tamed to fit the parents' culture nt
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. I tend to agree with him. Telling a child that they are being constantly watched and judged by
unseen beings isn't good. We need to develop their own consciences and teach self control.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. It gives them something to rebel against
While I agree that fundy environments are hostile to kids, especially when corporal punishment by strangers is used, I can't agree that the ordinary Christian daycare environment is any worse than any other.

After all, kids are magical thinkers and if you don't give them something to believe in, they'll just invent it.
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brendan120678 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Santa Claus included?
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. Suffers from PETA syndrome
taking something to the extreme and erasing the logical/positive parts of your position in ridiculousness.

Teaching someone something that is wrong is not child abuse. If it were, children are constantly abused every day by everyone.
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qb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
5. I agree with Mr. Smalley, and I think he's being deliberately provocative with the term "abuse".
However, the law doesn't prohibit parents from abusing their children, it just sets the threshold.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. The church that confirmed me years ago ran a daycare in a highly transitional
slum area of a major US city

When both parents need to work at low-paying jobs to keep the family fed and try to get ahead, reasonably priced professional daycare serves a real need

The kids got a good breakfast and lunch, and morning and afternoon snacks, developmentally appropriate activities, some outdoor exercise in a safe enclosed playground, and interaction from staff who cared

The common alternative was for parents just to leave their kids illegally with a bunch of other kids in a neighbors slum apartment where they'd watch TV most of the day, for some monetary consideration

David Smalley is, of course, entitled to whatever opinions he wants to hold, but I doubt whether there's much behind his sweeping generalizations except his own ignorant prejudice
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Was there "religious education" going on there?
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Who made you the judge of everyone else?
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. That's how you answer a simple question?
If their was no religious education, it was not Christian daycare, regardless of where it was held. Did they offer religious education to the children? (You're not in court. You don't have to answer. We're just discussing an interesting subject among friends. But, frankly, I think your hostility is a bizarre response, to say the least.)
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. The OP is a vicious and mean-spirited bit of bigotry, pushing the idea that religious education
is child abuse

I described in a post upthread the major benefits to the community of a church-run daycare center that I was familiar with

As far as I can tell, the author of the OP has no experience in daycare, and nothing I'm seeing from you suggests you have any experience in daycare either. Both of you are welcome to your idiotic theories about how we were poisoning the minds of infants and toddlers, but I'm not much interested in playing along with your games
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. So there was religious education.
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 01:45 PM by BurtWorm
And you're embarrassed to admit it because you feel accused now.

PS: I'm curious what the content of this education was. I don't expect you to help me understand because it's clear you think I'm judging you. I only want to understand, if there was Christian content, what the purpose of that was. Were these kids' parents members of the church? Did they want their kids to learn about Jesus? I'm trying to understand how the creators of a religious daycare center contrive to include religion as a component? Why is it considered necessary? I'd like to understand.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I'm not embarrassed at all. Did you even read my description of the clientele
the daycare center served? Parents sent kids to the daycare so they wouldn't have to leave them watching TV with a neighbor in some firetrap slum apartment. In some cases, the daycare breakfast and lunch might be the best meals the kids got during the week
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Hurray.
:applause:

was there religious education? I thought it was a pretty straightforward question. If not it's not really Christian daycare so is not relevant to the discussion.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. dogmadebate post is titled "Church Day Care" and says
"... by starting your child off in a Christian environment, you are heading them down a path of forced ignorance ..."

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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. So there was no religious education.
I have no problem with that.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. I haven't said one way or other. And I doubt the competency of your opinion
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. I really don't understand why you're playing that game.
If you don't want to play games, don't play. But if you're going to play, be fair. Please. Don't make me guess.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Who made you the judge of everyone else?
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. There you go with that bizarre question again?
You're not on trial here. This is a discussion. If you feel the courage of your convictions, defend them. If not, why bother even making an appearance in this discussion?

:wtf:
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. You use disease-language like "mind-virus" to discuss religion.
Why should I take seriously your protestations that you want "discussion"? You're merely looking for opportunities to insult people
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. I don't recall intentionally insulting anyone in this thread.
Edited on Fri Jul-02-10 05:18 PM by BurtWorm
You seem to have taken offense over something someone else said and are taking it out on me. That's ok. I've got a thick skin

If you want to defend religious education of children I'm very interested in what you have to say. Otherwise you seem to have wandered rather far from the topic at hand.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. This topic was posted twice. In the duplicate post, you explicitly
identify religion with mind viruses

The OP linked an article entitled "Church Day Care" with the quote "... by starting your child off in a Christian environment, you are heading them down a path of forced ignorance ..." In response in my #6, I briefly discussed a church day care with which I was familiar; there, and again in my #13, I pointed out the advantages to the community.

As far as I can tell, you lack the competence and insight to discuss either daycare or religious education in any sensitive or nuanced fashion. And I don't see any reason to pretend that your professed view of religion as 'mind virus" is conducive to any civil discussion. The church is question exhibited, years ago, a tolerance you yourself do not exhibit: thirty-five years ago, I heard the gospel preached there in three languages to accommodate immigrant populations -- and at that time, not only did this southern church have openly gay members, it also employed openly gay staff in its daycare center.

I'm done with this. Have a nice day. :hi:

NOTE TO MODS: Since the topic was posted twice, and I am referring to the member's comments in a duplicate thread which is part of the same discussion, I am not intending to violate the rule against calling someone out elsewhere; if mods are concerned that this seems to be a rules violation by me, perhaps the appropriate response is to combine the two threads, rather than deleting my post
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. There's that word "competence" again.
1. Since you are so quick to claim BurtWorm is judging you unjustly, where do you get off judging anyone else's competence to do a damn thing?
2. What makes you competent to do a damn thing?

As you write more of your own posts rather than simply drop links, you become more and more arrogant, determined to dismiss others as lesser than you with words like "competence" or "sensitive and nuanced fashion". If you think someone isn't worth your time, then come right out and say it. Don't speculate about them, because it makes you look like an asshole.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. If you disagree with what I'm arguing, show me why, please.
Edited on Fri Jul-02-10 09:36 PM by BurtWorm
Are you arguing that the price to the community the church served was to teach the children Christianity, a small price to pay? (I have to guess what your argument is because you're not coming right out and saying it.) Or are you trying to sidestep the issue of religious education to young children because that wasn't part of this daycare center;s mission? Or are you sidestepping it because you see that it isn't necessary at best and harmful at worst and have no argument against it?
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. Followup
In light of a recent news story regarding my Christian Day Care blog, I feel the need to clear a few things up and address the folks that responded on the news site that ran this story.

Despite my comments being taken out of contextI do not feel that all Christian Day Cares are equal to child abuse. I would never say that. Its a complete exaggeration of my statement.

Please read more than 4 lines of text before spewing your hatred toward people that disagree with you.

My actual stance on Day Care facilities is this: They can be guilty of mentally abusing children if they focus on indoctrination into religion rather than early education, while that child is in early stages of brain development. Thats why I said choose your child care facility carefully.

I do stand by this statement that was quoted: forcing to learn things as fact that you don't even know to be true is a form of child abuse: inducing psychosis with thoughts of good and evil watching over them, as if they are constantly being graded and evaluated. It's bad for positive self-esteem, and slows social development later in life.

Your religion is based on faith. They all are. Therefore, teaching your child that you know it, or that these things are facts is unfair to the childs educational future. My point here is that many children of Christian families lie in bed at night fearing the Devil, or demons, or going to Hell.

I know this because hundreds of former Christians have admitted to me that they suffered from those fears, as did I. Are you willing to say that this level of magical fear is good for them?...

http://www.dogmadebate.com/2010/07/public-response-to-n...
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. So still only Christian day cares commit child abuse
Not Jewish, or Muslim, or Hindu....gotcha.

dg
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Read the link n/t
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. Nice dodge, but nope, he only targets Christian schools nt
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Mariana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. From the link:
"The forced indoctrination of ANY religion, including Islam, and the teaching of faith as a fact, is unfair and abusive to children."

Exodus 20:16
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. Nice dodge, but the only religion specifically named is Christianity nt
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. It's called "write what you know".
Can you name for me a Jewish or Muslim school within 10 miles of your house? Do you think it likely that the author would have been easily able to find such a school, given that the vast supermajority of parochial schools in this country are Christian? Do you think the writer would change his mind about religious education after a research trip to Riyadh or Jerusalem?

We teach writing majors to write what they know, that way they can provide much needed breadth AND depth to the story. In the US, when you talk about religious education, it is Christian education that you will inevitably know about.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Yeah, keep squirming, but the truth of the matter is
most atheists aren't so much non-believers in God, but anti-Christian. It's the only religion you are really against. I've never seen other religions' holidays mocked in the most offensive manner possible as I have seen Christmas & Easter on DU.

dg
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Did you notice that your tirade didn't answer my point? n/t
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. See my #15 above. The gentleman's disclaimer is disingenuous
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
20. Telling a kid that God will make you burn in Hell for all eternity if you are bad IS abuse.
Where do you think the stereotype of guilt-ridden Catholic women comes from?
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. I'm not entirely sure...
we're even discussing the concept of "Hell" with my kids yet. Church for them is about learning the virtues of love, patience, kindness, and selflessness. As they approach an age where they can make a decision for themselves about baptism, I'm sure the concept of judgment will be discussed since it is central to Christian theology.
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