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I am sick to death of religion & theology entering government

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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 01:06 AM
Original message
I am sick to death of religion & theology entering government
This has just been simmering in me, and I guess the news of the SCOTUS nominee--with all of his apologists--have brought it to a head.

I don't want religion, nor the discussion of religion, discussed by the same people who create law or rule on law. I don't want people who view their "obligation" to their religion to be played out in my private life to be in an elected or appointed position in the government.

Really. Just stop it. Stop it now.

My spiritual life could never be altered by government. Why are so many people screaming about their "faith", but acting as though they posses none?
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. This has happened before...the Dark Ages were the triumph of Christianity
The Religious Right is really OUT OF CONTROL and is exerting a greater and greater influence on our society. They are flexing their muscles in the political process, the economy and our entire culture.

Let us remember that the first time Christianity spread rapidly and gained control of the government (in Rome from 200 - 500 AD) it resulted in the utter collapse of Western Civilization and ushered in 1,000 years of darkness, superstition, ignorance and suffering.

Finally, after a millennium of Darkness, mankind began to see the Dawn of The Age of Reason and The Enlightenment. Humanity recovered some dignity, science was freed from the chains of religious superstition and real progress began.

The Constitution of the United States of America was one of the crowning achievements of The Enlightenment, being a document for the Establishment of a government that did NOT MAKE ONE SINGLE REFERENCE TO "GOD". With the establishment of the United States, government as well as science was freed from the domination of religious superstition.

Now, every day in the news there is some story about how the religionists are exerting their influence. Radical Clerics like James Dobson and Jerry Falwell get air time on network news. Religionists are organizing and boycotting businesses that do not adhere to their version of personal morality.

The specter of religious superstition is once again casting a frightening shadow over our world. The ghosts and demons of the Dark Ages, once believed to be banished forever by Reason, are again haunting our culture. Christianity destroyed civilization once before - it could happen again.

****
****

Antidote to Fundamentalist Nut-Cases is a Revival of the Freethought Movement


I think what we need is a Freethought movement similar to what the US had around the turn of the 20th century. Robert Ingersoll was touring the country, lecturing on secularism and exposing the claims of revealed religion to be false.

Unless something breaks the stranglehold of religious fundamentalism in the US - and in the world - I think we are going to continue the slide into Theocracy and destruction.

The Freethought Zone
Science and Reason Over Religion and Superstition

http://freethought.freeservers.com /

Freedom from Religion Foundation
http://www.ffrf.org /

Secular Humanism
http://www.secularhumanism.org /

Secular Web
http://www.infidels.org/index.shtml

Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason - Online
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine...

Complete Works of Robert Ingersoll - Online
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_inger...

****
****

Dominionism's Theocratic Designs and Radical Clerics


Fundamentalist Radical Clerics such as Falwell, Dobson, and Robertson are not merely medieval throwbacks or misguided religious hacks. They are part of a well organized subversionary movement known as "Dominionism". Dominionism constitutes a serious threat to American Democracy. These Radical Clerics have developed and are executing a detailed plan to gradually replace the free, secular democratic society of the United States with a Theocracy.

It is critical that people become aware of the extreme agenda these people have for the United States and ultimately for the world. The results of the 2004 Presidential Election were not a fluke or something that was drummed up over a period of months. It has been in planning for over 20 years, and what we are seeing take place now is, in the words of Katherine Yurica, "the swift advance of a planned coup".

The Swift Advance of a Planned Coup: Conquering by Stealth and Deception - How the Dominionists Are Succeeding in Their Quest for National Control and World Power
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvance...

The Despoiling of America: How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOf...

Video on the Christian Reconstructionist Dominionist Theocratic Agenda
http://www.theocracywatch.org/av/video_dominion.ram

The Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party
a public information project from TheocracyWatch.org

http://www.theocracywatch.org

The Religious Right - An Anti-American Terrorist Movement
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8816.ht...



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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. Thank you for a wonderful, informative post
I haven't even begun to dig in to the links that you have provide--although I soon will.

"These Radical Clerics have developed and are executing a detailed plan to gradually replace the free, secular democratic society of the United States with a Theocracy."

Yes, I definetly see this trend, the destruction of our democracy (unless we self correct) if we continue to allow these people to have a voice in our government. This tactic has been used by many other corrupt govenments before the US, and we can see by their example where it will lead.

I do believe the founders clearly wanted to keep the church disassociated from the State. I mourn for the death spiral that we seem to be in.

Thanks for the links, I will be reading them shortly ( although a couple of them I believe I have already read)

:toast:
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. I agree with what me b zola said.
And I am a regular church goer. I am also sick of the christianity sterotype perputated by the msm media and gop. It's time everyone shut up took a giant step back and started to respect everyone elses rights for a change. The messiah complex right are completly out of control. And i am tired of the pop culture and msm enabling them.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I am sick of church people
talking about god on political TV and using the secular government to force me to haver to live like a christian because THEY want brownie points from THEIR god maybe to get a bigger crown as they bow down,I dunno.. I am not a christian and I do not believe in it or want to live my life in obedience to their god or their bible as they choose to do.
Religion is a choice,where you are born is NOT.
America is a pluralistic nation.NOT a christian one.

Get church and corporation out of our government.
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
8.  I agree
No one has the right to tell another human being how to live breath eat or what to buy. Whats next national breakfeast and dinner times?
Gwb has done more to make me question and resent my religion than any aethist in history. Dang it w God didnt tell you to invade iraq and he didnt tell any one to vote for you. We used to lock people up in this country for talking crap like that.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. Thank you. Sometimes I feel as though I am all alone in this
I was born & raised Catholic, although I am not practicing. I often times feel a closer bond to the people on our board who are atheists, agnostic, Pagan, and heinz 57.

My own spiritaul beliefs are my own. They don't belong to the government, and I do not seek to use the government to convert people to believe as I do. It is that simple.

I feel a knot in the pit of my stomach to be on a progressive message board and have theologic talking points introduced to a discussion of law & governence. I have three grandchildren, and I want them to learn SCIENCE in their science classroom. Two of my grandchildren are grand-daughters. I am angered to the bone to hear someone's "religious" beliefs argued on this progressive message board when it comes to my grand-daughters (future) right to choose.

"They" *are* out of control.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
3. Bush has been very effective in controlling the weak
through his religious talk.

After all, with his addictive personality, he switched his addiction from Booze to God. Of course, he had a few pink elephant dreams on the way and really screwed up his perceptions on religion.
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. The sad part is.....
That bush is just such a fraud I can't believe people buy his act. I wonder if he's like dorian grey and he has a picture of him stashed inside the white house some where and every time he lies the picture gets more and more grotesque.
It's such a shame because this monkey man ruins it for the few good christians out there who believe in the seperation of church and state but just dont have the dollars and voice to compete with these scribes and pharisees.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
6. Check this out.. it will get your freak on....... .....Link>>>
http://www.insider-magazine.com/ChristianMafia

now as you read this you need to remember these are the people who started and run the Prayer Breakfasts the president and every politician go to that want to anybody... :hide: :yoiks:
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. Wayne Madsen
The source citation there is rather sketchy, too.
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
7. I agree
My spiritual life could never be altered by government. Why are so many people screaming about their "faith", but acting as though they posses none?

Power and money. Didn't Jesus bitch about that a few times?
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Jesus did argue about power and money
And free health care and they crucifed for him for it.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Jesus. The original Liberal.
It always slays me. The bible that I have read which instructs me to be loving, kind, forgiving, giving, and thoughtful of others is the same? bible that others (not just the fundies) use to hurt, demean, or control others.

My MIL is fundie-lite, so a little has rubbed off on my hubbie. My disagreement with a large percentage of the religious community comes to this; My reading of the bible instructs me on how to be a better person, regardless of what anyone else is doing or whatever their (perceived) shortcomings--it is all about me and the choices that I make. The religious people that I have issue with are those who read the same bible and believe that they need to impose their beliefs or interpretations of the bible on other people--especially when that enters the political arena.

Yes, Jesus most definetely tought us to keep our spiritual lives private and away from the money changers.
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. As a UU Deist
Edited on Wed Jul-20-05 02:16 AM by Tux
I read the Jefferson Bible (regular Bible promotes violence and I don't consider that spiritual) and Jesus was cool. He broke shit when money changers ran scams in the Temple. He worked on Sabbath. He helped heal people. And he even taught, in a way, that one didn't need rabbis and priests.

Jesus is OK. Time to get him off the cross and let him have a vacation. What is MIL?
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. MIL=mother in law
Jesus is Okay with me too. I just have issue with people of "faith" putting their belief of who & what Jesus is/was into governence.

I have been meaning to do some reading on Deism. Some of that desire comes from just wanting to know, but the other part of that would be to understand our founders.
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Reading?
Here is Deism in essence: belief in God (we prefer Deity) based on reason and the Universe. That simple. It gets complex once other spiritual ideas are considered like afterlife but that is the core of Deism.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Didn't Christ speak of allowing the corrupt to take
over and destroy the weak, and doing nothing about it?

:hi:
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Jesus said a lot of things that I don't proport to understand
All I know is that is macro-message is to change myself. My ability to affect change around me begins with who & what I am.
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. Jesus is alot like Howard Dean
There both liberal doctors who got under the skin of the conservatives of thier day.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. That bodes ill for Dr. Dean, doesn't it? (nt)
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
11. Jesus was the voice of the poor and needy
Republicans think they are the scourge of the earth. Yet, they call themselves Christians?
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alrightjim Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
21. the power of faith
Hi zola. If you are a person embracing an arbitrary belief system, and that belief system explicitly asserts it is the one true way of faith, how do you think true believers are going to conduct themselves in the secular society they live in?

This is compounded by a corruption of the original arbitrary belief system, which was a religion of love. Farmers hobble their horses to keep them from running off. The love obligation hobbles power worshipping Christians in this country, because it is the power of God and faith that they honor, not the love obligation. When they do speak of love it is the love of the Lord which is generally stressed, then it is the love of fellow Christians, and then fellow Americans, but only Americans they approve of, and it is almost NEVER the love of enemies, even though this is pointed out time and again by Christ in the Greek scriptures. You don't blow up an abortion doctor, you love him. How exasperatingly inconvenient that would be.

Sanctimonious Busybodyism requires a muscular Christianity. This turn the other cheek Christianity MUST be gotten around. There is always some way to justify secular perpetration in the name of faith. More than any other group, the neocons have plugged into the power of faith and rode that putrid beast to the White House.

But don't be fooled by the GOP religious right. They are a means to an end, and they are being manipulated by the Bush folks, the rich and powerful coterie of white males who have owned and controlled this country since its inception. Bush is no country boy, no born again, no neocon. He is a front man for the greatest of American traditions---entrenched power---an insidous oligarchy expressing itself through corporate hijacked government.

Blaming him is like blaming the hammer for missing the nail. Blame the power behind the hammer. They are not a myth, they are not a conspiracy theory. They are not hard to find if you really care to look. I mean, where can a few thousand anal white male billionaires really hide?

Jimmy

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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 04:25 AM
Response to Original message
23. Preaching to the choir here, so to speak
Keep your rosary off my ovaries (as well as my other reproductive organs). Don't use your religion to dictate what I'll do in any aspect of my life. If the government can't regulate your church, your church can't have say in the running of the government. Church is church and state is state, and never the two should meet.





:rant:
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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
24. In the name of God
From today's Guardian (Following the second set of London Bombs):

Blair has appeased and prevaricated. Now, as the death cult strikes again, he must oust religion from public life ...
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