So I just finished reading Genesis for one of my classes...

[BolivarianHero]

How is it that at least 1/3 of Americans believe that all that stuff really happened as written and that there is no room for either contextual interpretation or outright disbelief?

Are people really that gullible?

[Blue State Blues]

1. Yes. And yet many of those who believe it

haven't read it.

[Canuckistanian]

59. Bingo

A lot of those "true believers" are functionally illiterate, and get their edyucayshun from TV shows and DVDs at $30 a pop.

[Angry Dragon]

2. They put their faith in their religious leaders

[FormerDittoHead]

74. They don't understand it. No one does as it doesn't make sense. But they put their FAITH in it.

Exactly as you say about putting their faith in their leaders.

I tried to read the bible once. It's gobble-dee-goop.

Now I took philosophy in college. We talked about many things, but maybe you've heard of Plato's cave. Not important. What's important is that hundreds of years B.C., they were able to put together a complex, consistent, logical story.

If they wanted the Bible to make sense, they COULD have written it so, but instead, it's painfully obvious to me that the Bible is written that way JUST SO one can read ANY DAMN THING INTO IT THEY WANT TO. And I'm not even talking about the various versions of the Bible.

NO ONE "READS" the bible and walks away a born again Christian, whatever.

Every one of these "have you read your bible?" types has taken CLASSES of some kind, and bit by carefully selected bit, TOLD what it "Means".

[patrice]

87. They are pseudo-rationalists, too afraid to imagine a mystery greater than their own minds, too lazy

to do the honest work of rationalism, so they accept formulations from others, the opposite of what real faith would be, the opposite of believing that there is something so omnipotent as to be COMPLETELY ineffable, i.e. beyond humanity, beyond words, beyond any words, beyond apprehension, beyond beyond . . . .

They call it faith, but it's really just phony rationalism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. i have both old and new

why does it seem disjoined to you?

Well, there are good reasons for this.

The Bible is not a single book...

It contains elements of even more ancient stories from several places in the levant.

Genesis One (The actual first book) might have originated in what you may call today ancient Israel. We are not really sure. Genesis II, same story... is actually Babylonian. Why it has some major "inconsistencies" such as the Gods created man in their image... don't worry, most fanatics don't know that. Oh and the book of Noah... see Babylon and it MIGHT have happened, about the 10th century BCE... archeology a pesky thing... though it did not flood the earth... but if you know how legends are done... like a fish story it grew.

The Song of Solomon, one of the most provocative, sexy, some may even say R Rated books in the Bible... is actually coming from an Egyptian story that preceded it by about one thousand years.

I could go on.

Suffice it to say that the Old testament was written by four groups of people and the research into who ordered it, and who wrote it is damn fascinating. It tells you more about the times (seventh century BCE or so) than what it is supposed to mean.

The whole New Testament... well shall we say the story of Jesus has way too many parallels to the story of Mithra... why be creative, in other words why reinvent the wheel?

Now I have to say... KNOWING how the sausage is done is good when facing bible thumpers that don't know where or how this was written. Now those are fun.

But the bible sayzzz... so when are you selling your daughter into slavery to settle your debts?

Bible does not say that... oh yes, yes it does, let me show you...

Shall we say I have had some fun with the type... they usually tell me, you must be a good christian then... after the hilarity passes... no, I am Jewish, and you should be ashamed, I KNOW the sermon of the Mount better than you do.

SLAP.

Oh and the sermon of the mount, a central piece in some of modern Christianity... not fundy for interesting political reasons, is usually not well known by most christians.. regardless of flavor.

Now for the New Testament, the BBC produced a BEAUTIFUL series decades ago where they had actors recreate it in Hebrew with subtitles. So the last supper, well they had an honest to goodness passover service...

[virgogal]

3. It's called "faith". (And no,I don't have it.)

[MNDemNY]

7. The George Micheal song?

:7

[MissMarple]

4. You betcha!

Now, how many creation stories are in Genesis?

[BrklynLiberal]

5. It would seem so. Check out this uproar..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6812293&mesg_id=6812293

[Warpy]

12. I saw that earlier and refrained from adding to it

and am now delighting in my rare display of reticence.

I don't suppose you pointed out that the snake told the truth about that tree while god lied?

Nah, they're kids and their parents would pitch a fit if you did.

[Ardent15]

43. Millions of people are superstitious, willfully ignorant, etc. nt

[LuckyTheDog]

6. Yes.

People really are that gullible.

[Xenotime]

8. There are people who actually believe that this is the only universe that exists, too.

[Taverner]

9. Yes, because faith requires you leave reason behind

Anytime you do that, you get something like Jim Jones or David Koresh

[patrice]

92. Not completely. It requires that you leave certain select aspects of reason behind, while

retaining enough reason to invest in what religious leaders say things mean. While the characters and events are pretty fantastic, there's a lot of cause and effect, a lot of hierarchically prescribed formulas in religion, all requiring order and logic discerned by authority, which is in itself another bit of rationalism.

[Occam Bandage]

10. Because religious thought is not rational thought.

Fundamentalists are concerned primarily not with the veracity of their chosen holy texts, but rather with what those texts teach about humanity's place in the universe. The story of Adam, Eve, and the Fall is literally true to them not because it seems reasonable that such a thing might happen, but because they value so strongly what that story teaches that they do not entertain the notion that it might be literally false.

[XemaSab]

45. I'll tell you what the story teaches:

Men would be perfect and without sin if it weren't for us trashy women. x(

[Angry Dragon]

95. But life would be no fun without you

:evilgrin:

[JackRiddler]

11. How many of those "1/3 of Americans" do you figure actually read it?

[FiveGoodMen]

14. Exactly. Not many.

Ask a group of ex-xtians what made them turn away from their faith.

An awful lot will tell you, "I read the whole Bible."

[blogslut]

20. Ha!

Jesus' daddy was a straight up asshole. :hi:

[mitchum]

27. Don't talk about some itinerant tent maker like that!

And I don't mean Joseph The Really Gullible Cuckold

[OswegoAtheist]

62. Itinerant tent maker from Scandanavia...

...that would explain the paintings of a blue eyed Caucasian most American churches have hanging about.

Oswego "...and Snorri begat Magnus; and Magnus begat Harald..." Atheist

[hfojvt]

22. probably lots of them

when you read the Bible, you start with Genesis. Unless you are a speed reader you probably run out of steam by 2md Samuel. Or Leviticus. Then you lose interest for a while, but then pick it up a year later or so. Since you cannot remember where you left off, you just start all over from the beginning.

At least that was the pattern in my childhood. I probably read the book of Genesis about six times, but I have never read Nahum or Zephaniah.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. I highly recommend Isiaah and Daniel

Especially Isaiah... that particular line

"And they shall beat their swords into plowshares"... one of my all time favs

Or the

"those who let one human life end, have killed all of humanity and those who save a life have saved humanity."

If you want to reach for a great lyrical piece of poetry, with some R rated sections... The Song of Solomon (based on an Egyptian work of oh about 1000 years before)

Of course if you want to be a fiction writer the old testament, together with the Iliad and the Odyssey are required readying, for things like the nature of story telling. And yes, every plot you could ever imagine IS in the Bible.

Spare me Leviticus... or for that matter Exodus.

Though of the prophets the Book of Deborah has its moments.

Mind you, I have not read any of this for RELIGIOUS reasons in many years any more... and yes, as hard as it is to understand, not just because it is a fairly descent translation, but the language is beautiful... if you do not read Hebrew... I recommend the King James Version, followed by the Jerusalem Bible (compiled by experts... but they lost something in the language)

Hell I might just get myself the King James... as re-readying some of those books is actually good to get you in tune with Good Story telling... as long as you forget this is a religious book... to me it isn't.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

13. What is even more interesting is all the gosphels left out

when Constantine and the power elite decided to consolidate what version of Christianity they wanted the masses to believe in forming the Bible as we more or less know it now. It never ceases to amaze me how little most Christians actually know about the religion they attempt to espouse. Unadulterated word of God indeed!

[madrchsod]

19. most western christians have never heard of the coptic church

just about every western christian ritual can be traced back to the pagan religions of western europe.

Zoroastrianism was the first religion of the middle east that believed in one god.

yes it does strike me that most christians have`t a clue of the history of the religion of the semite tribes of the middle east.

[XemaSab]

49. Most American Christians have never heard of the eastern orthodox churches either

:P

[knitter4democracy]

89. +1

:)

[patrice]

93. And yet, Gnosticism was essential to the context for the story of Yeshua and his cousin, John, was

an Essene, one who became known as The Baptizer.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

91. And the fool in the post above thinks I'm basing my opinions on Dan Brown.

Yeah, I'm just stupid and know not of which I speak. Reality T.V. THE source for your religious convictions. I probably shouldn't be pissed but I have had just enough of the sacred blood to stop being reasonable.

[ProfessorPlum]

68. Easy on the "DaVinci Code" version of history

Constantine didn't have anything to do with choosing the canon, and by his day the four canonical gospels were firmly in place. Read some Bart Ehrman for the real scoop on that stuff, not Dan Brown.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

88. Actually, I'm reading Elain Pagels, not Dan Brown

And I kind of resent the idea that you think I am so stupid as to confuse Dan Browns fiction with a historical look at the history of Christianity.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. Though I will admit Dan brown can be entertaining

I wonder how badly he will trash the real Free Masons...

No, don't intend to buy the book... the cliffs notes, aka the movie, should be enough.

By the way, you are right about the coptic texts... and you are also right that there was far more to this than. Hell didn't they release Judas's book recently?

[ProfessorPlum]

127. Then why do you think Constantine had anything to do with

choosing the gospels, or anything else besides calling the Council of Nicea? Pagels doesn't think so.

[MarjorieG]

15. When I was at JTS, they did a Genesis series with Bill Moyer, likening it to folk, modern stories

of dysfunctional families. (Jewish Theological Seminary, with our Rabbi Burt Vizotsky) There would be roundtable discussion.

[GodDamLiberal]

16. 4 to 14

That's the ages where they want to start the brainwashing.
If they can get you then they more than likely have you for life.
No critical thinking needed.

[conscious evolution]

32. Its called branding

and the earlier you can brand children the harder it is to breal its hold.It is the same reasoning behind the Hitler Youth.Same with Joe Camel.
The Jesuits even have a saying-"Give us the boy at six and he will still be with us at sixty".

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Was it Genesis One (what most people think off when talking of Genesis)

or Genesis II? The differences are fun, and always good to explode some brains.


But God...

No the GODS...

That would be polytheism.

No that would be Genesis TWO.

[chollybocker]

18. Just curious... Why are you reading the Bible in school?

What kind of class is it for?

[mitchum]

28. World Fiction?

[Blue State Blues]

21. So I just finished listening to Genesis

How is it that so many Americans don't know that Peter Gabriel was the original front man for the band?

[Ikonoklast]

46. Heretic. You'll burn for that.

There is one and only one True Frontman, and His Holy Name is Phil.

Recant and be saved.

[Blue State Blues]

90. Now be reasonable

Phil may be inspired, his gifts and talents are many, but the record clearly shows Gabriel was the first prophet of Genesis. Even the gospel of Tony Banks agrees.

[hfojvt]

23. children are. They believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny

and Adam, Eve, and Noah.

So many Americans grow up with it, and if they stay in that subculture then there is a group that reinforces that message and does not pick at it too closely.

[bertman]

24. Yes, they are THAT gullible. Take for example, the belief in sacrificing the lives of thousands

of warriors so the Sun god would be pleased--from the New World native cultures such as the Aztecs and Toltecs. Or you can believe in Thor who hurled thunderbolts at poor innocent humans. Or how about Neptune/Poseidon, the god of the sea? There are so many of these religious myths that have been part of our planet's history that it's hard to believe that human beings are really very smart or observant of the world around them. I guess we're just good at believing what the guys with the sharp weapons and the heavy artillery tell us is true.

My personal favorite, and the greatest marketing coup of all time, is the guy who is born of a virgin, never sins, raises people from the dead, is the actual son of the all-powerful god--ruler of the universe--who allows himself to be murdered by a group of murderous European invaders, then rises from the dead long enough to proclaim that anyone who believes in him and asks for forgiveness for ANY sin is going to live in a place of immense beauty and peace. Wow.

Recommend.

[XemaSab]

54. I can understand nature gods

The other day we had a gnarly thunderstorm.

We know where storms come from, and what thunder and lightning are, but to the ancients it must have seemed totally random.

Nature gods make a lot more sense to me than Christianity. :P

[bertman]

97. Good point, XemaSab. One beautiful summer day I saw a thundercloud come out of

nowhere. It was a huge black cloud in a sky of white, billowy clouds. Around the fringes of this turbulent, swirling cloud mass was a fringe of RED that looked like something an evil or angry god would have concocted just before striking humankind with a cataclysm. I must admit that it made me gasp when I saw it. So, it's easy for me too to imagine that our ancestors might have seen in this the embodiment of some god or goddess far more powerful than they.

[Rabrrrrrr]

25. Yep - and those are the braindead ignorant shitwads the Republicans keep putting in office.

[mitchum]

26. Because there are a lot of really stupid motherfuckers out there

[harkadog]

29. Such as President Obama?

Or is he lying to us? Can't have it both ways.

[mitchum]

30. Lying is an occupational hazard for politicians...

that's how THEY try to have it both ways.

Your turn, Bible Boy...

[TexasObserver]

31. If you're trying to be subtle about it, you're not succeeding.

What kind of poster wants to make this thread about the president?

[harkadog]

35. This is a political discussion board

President Obama has said he is a Christian and he has occasionally referenced the Bible in speeches. So if every who has faith is a stupid motherfucker I was wondering if the poster applied that to the President. Not trying to be subtle, quite the opposite. Just applying logic. Of course the poster took the easy route and says Obama is lying to us.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. OP wasn't talking about people who read the Bible.

But the morons who believe in the literal interpretation.

And then there are the morons who claim to be Christian but haven't actually bothered to read the thing...

[harkadog]

53. And there are moron atheists who claim to be experts on the Bible

and their hatred has consumed their ability to know anything about it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. Name one.

[harkadog]

105. No I won't violate DU TOS like you have.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

135. Where have I violated the rules?

[mitchum]

82. May you soon be with your fucking precious lord. Very soon.

[TexasObserver]

98. This is a political discussion board of progressives.

You can count the people here who believe in Genesis on one hand, and you're now on that one hand.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. Obama believes in a literal interpretation of Genesis?

I think you're confusing him with the previous guy in the office.

[harkadog]

38. I don't know.

Has he said he doesn't?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

The default position for intelligent people is "no."

As for Obama, no, he believes in evolution.

Contrary to the literal interpretation of the Bible.

So you should probably apologize to the other people for being completely wrong. Again.

[harkadog]

50. You are using a straw man.

Many Christians believe in evolution. It is not inconsistent with the Bible. You are trying to create your own interpretation of the Bible and then ascribe that view to anyone who has faith. Fail.

[Warren DeMontague]

58. Speaking of "fail", you tried to put words in Obama's mouth, and you were wrong.

There's a quote from him on this very topic. Maybe you missed it?

[harkadog]

72. Show me the post where I put any words in Obama's mouth.

I just asked a question.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

76. Post 29.

You argued that Obama claimed to be a Creationist.

And suggested maybe he wasn't a Creationist, but lied about it.

Either way, you've given false witness, in violation of the 8th commandment.

[harkadog]

111. Never said that and you know that.

Yet another straw man. I am suggesting that Obama has stated he is a Christian, believes in the Bible and says he was born again in 1988. That is all in the public record and he has written about it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

136. You also claimed he believed it literally.

Would you like to retract your claim that he believes it literally, or would you like to continue with it?

[Warren DeMontague]

77. "is he lying to us?"

Directly in reference to, again, the story of Genesis- implication being that somewhere, Obama had said that he accepts that the Genesis story is literally true.

Note you did NOT say "Is Obama lying to us when he says he believes in God" or some such generalized defense of Obama's religious faith.. the specific topic here is the story of Genesis, so it's reasonable to assume (unless you state otherwise) that when you ask "is (Obama) lying to us" you're claiming that HE has said he believes, literally, in the story of Genesis.

Now, how about explaining to ME what, precisely, I 'don't understand about DNA', particularly to the point of 'embarrassing myself'....

[harkadog]

112. I never said Obama believes Genesis is "literally true"

But one can't be a Christian, particularly a "born again" one with out some believe in the general story of Genesis. If you believe Genesis is a total fairly tale, fine, but no one would suggest that you are a Christian. He says he is a Christian and I believe him.

As far as the DNA go there are many many articles on this available on the internet. For some topics I would provide links but you are so consumed by hate it would be a waste of my time.

[Warren DeMontague]

115. Please, please, provide "links". And I'd like an explanation, however short, of what EXACTLY

constitutes an "embarassing" misunderstanding of DNA in the following statement:

DNA evidence has also shown that we share common ancestors with chimps, cats, dogs, fish, and further back, insects, worms, and bananas.

What, precisely, do you think is incorrect there?

What don't I understand about DNA? :shrug:

C'mon. You made the statement, now... back it up.

[Meshuga]

131. Obama is a Christian who turned to UCC

And UCC can't be so strong in their biblical literalism when they passed a resolution in support of equal marriage rights for all. And there are Christians who don't believe in the literal account of genesis. Why do you get to decide who is Christian and who is not?

Look at the Catholic Church. They don't believe in the literal account of creation. You see non-theistic evolution is part of Catholic School science curriculum. So are they not Christian by your standards?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. Evolution is inconsistent with a literal interpretation of the Bible.

We're not talking about people who have creative interpretations of the Bible, but literal interpretations.

[anigbrowl]

34. You know, I don't think he necessarily takes the Genesis stuf literally

In the unlikely event that Obama believes the world was created in 7 days, minus evolution but including a talking snake and naked people, then yes, that would put him in the stupid box.

[harkadog]

40. I believe in the general story of Genesis

But the details are up to interpretation and possible error. Genesis was written about three thousand years ago and has been translated from the original language to other languages and to other languages from that many many times.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. Explain what you mean by "general."

Do you believe that all people are descended from Adam and Eve, which God created wholly a few thousand years ago?

[harkadog]

47. DNA evidence has shown we are descented from a common

male and female. http://www.physorg.com/news97857326.html . The Bible says nothing about god creating anything "a few thousand" years ago. That is your interpretation.

[Warren DeMontague]

52. DNA evidence has also shown that we share common ancestors with chimps, cats, dogs

fish, and further back, insects, worms, and bananas.

So.. in the Bible, were "adam and eve" trilobites?

[harkadog]

55. You really don't understand DNA do you?

You are embarrassing yourself.

[Warren DeMontague]

57. What don't I understand about DNA? Please, be specific.

I'll wait.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. It's correct.

According to DNA, us and chimps have single common ancestor. Same goes for all life on earth.

[Warren DeMontague]

64. Stop, or you'll "embarass yourself", too.

You obviously know nothing about science, particularly the Bible, which is the most scientificist book of all time, even.

[Warren DeMontague]

70. Still waitin'.

...Waitin' for you to explain DNA to me.

Yep.

Still waitin'...

[mike_c]

75. I "understand DNA" pretty well....

I'm a research biologist and university professor. An ecologist, not a molecular biologist, but I stay pretty current.

You're right-- there is considerable evidence that all life on Earth is derived from a common ancestor (although the matter is FAR from settled). But in any event, that ancestor was undoubtedly single-celled and prokaryotic. NOT the cute xtian couple Adam and Eve, for sure.

[anigbrowl]

113. He understands a lot more about it than you do. As do I.

I'm sorry, but you're waaaay off the science reservation. If you find spiritual lessons in the Genesis tale then far be it from me to deny they're there, but if you take it as a guide to anything factual like the origin of life, we have nothing to talk about.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. You've got both the science and the mythology wrong.

According the literal interpretation of the Bible, the earth is a few thousand years old. Because the Bible traces all ancestry back to Adam and Eve, and it gives ages.

Add them all up and you get a few thousand years.

As for the DNA evidence which you're misinterpreting...

The most common recent female ancestor, the most common recent male ancestor, and the mitochondrial Eve were three different people living thousands of years apart from each other.

Think of it this way.

If there was a nuclear war, and the only survivors were me and my cousins from my maternal side of the family, then all humans alive would have a single common female ancestor- our grandmother. That does not mean our Grandmother was "Eve."

[harkadog]

71. No one knows what the english word "day" means

as applied to the original Book of Genesis. That is your interpretation.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

73. "Day" means the time it takes the earth to spin on its axis.

The time from noon on one day to the noon on the next day.

Or sunrise to sunrise. Sunset to sunset.

It means the same thing 3000 years ago as it does now.

Interpretation doesn't enter in to it.

There's no wiggle room.

[harkadog]

106. Hate to break it to you

But Genesis wasn't written in english. In fact, english wasn't even around 3000 years ago even in what is now England. Unless you were sitting down with the priest caste about 600 BC you don't know what exactly was written. Enjoy your time machine.

[eomer]

128. What possible use is it to you, then, if the simplest, plainest words in it

may not mean what they simply, plainly mean?

How could it possibly inform you about anything then? How could you ever trust any single thing you thought it said?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

134. No, Harkadog.

It was written in Hebrew.

But the Hebrew word for "day" means the exact same thing that it does in English.

[XemaSab]

69. That article says nothing of the kind

P

[laconicsax]

132. Sorry, that's actually wrong.

There's the mitochondrial Eve who lived sometime between 150-250 thousand years ago. All humans are related to her matrilineally. There's also Y chromosome Adam, who lived around 60,000 years ago. All humans are related to him patrilineally. These two individuals didn't know each other and never would have met (having lived between 100-200 thousand years apart). Neither individual was the only man or woman alive at the time, but simply the only of their contemporaries who have living descendants today.

The interpretation of the Earth being created on October 23rd, 4004 BC came from James Ussher who, in the 17th century, used the chronology of the Bible to calculate the first day of creation as being October 23, 4004 BC.

[Warren DeMontague]

51. Obama's own words:

I also believe our schools are there to teach worldly knowledge and science. I believe in evolution, and I believe there’s a difference between science and faith. That doesn’t make faith any less important than science. It just means they’re two different things. And I think it’s a mistake to try to cloud the teaching of science with theories that frankly don’t hold up to scientific inquiry.

That doesn't sound like the words of a man who is a literalist on the Genesis creation story, does it?

[BolivarianHero]

104. Stop being an idiot...

Obama is UCC. Calling UCC fundamentalist is like calling Bush intelligent.

[Meshuga]

130. Show us a link or citation as evidence that Obama is a biblical literalist

Or that he thinks the Bible is infallible and I will agree with you.

Otherwise I say your post is beyond stupid and your persistance throughout this thread is even more so.

[Warren DeMontague]

133. Actually, I've got quotes from Obama where he specifically says the opposite.

Like this one:

There are passages of the Bible that make perfect sense to me and others that I go, 'Ya know, I'm not sure about that,'"

But there is honest debate predicated on facts & evidence, and then there is playing "'round and 'round the (logical) mulberry bush" with creationists.

I think this convo falls into the latter category, and as such trying to reason with that particular poster is a total waste of time.

[Zywiec]

36. Show me where 1/3 of Americans believe in Genesis

Are you really that gullible?

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. It's actually a little higher.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/jun/08/20060608-111826-4947r/#

[struggle4progress]

78. Here's a Gallup Poll from a few years back on biblical literalism in the US:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/27682/onethird-americans-believe-bible-literally-true.aspx

[TK421]

42. Mandatory castration/hysterectomy percentage n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

44. Because it requires less thinking to believe in a fairy tale than to comprehend complex reality?

Seriously. I was thinking about this today. Lots of people don't care to get beyond 6,000 years of History, or try to grasp a universe larger than, say, the solar system-- because it's tough for the brain to wrap itself around things like 14 Billion Years worth of history in a Universe containing hundreds of billions of galaxies.

[patrice]

94. real freedom is scarey

[democracy1st]

48. K & R for later

[gateley]

56. What really gets me is that they thing the Bible is divinely written! They totally

ignore the writings that the Catholic Church deemed unacceptable and so removed. :eyes:

[rug]

67. What would you put back in?

[gateley]

103. Personally? Nothing. I don't really like the Bible, so it's not something I would

even bother with. (I hope this doesn't sound offensive - it's not intended to be.)

[mitchum]

85. But...but...but...that was divine...editing!

[NAO]

66. keep reading, it gets better

more gore, more violence, more genocide.

It seems to be building thru Deuteronomy, but then it turns into a total blood fest in Joshua and Judges! Those Israelites exterminate everyone and everything they can see. God even helps by stopping the sun, and even more incredibly, by tossing down giant hailstones, thereby killing more people than the Israelite armies are able to kill with the sword.

You know, nice children's stories like that.

[imdjh]

79. Really, tell the bitch to lighten up.

[arthritisR_US]

80. Just the other day my burning bush and I were talking about this very thing....

we were wondering about the same thing ;-)

[KittyWampus]

81. sorry

[frogmarch]

83. Most people I know are

that gullible. They're all Christians, and hard-line, brain-dead fundies to boot.

I have a framed copy of this picture hanging in my kitchen, which most of them don't understand, but they're nevertheless rabid anti-evolutionists.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

123. Tell them they once had gills and a tail!!

Watch their heads explode!!

[Hekate]

84. They are as gullible and superstitious as Medieval peasants who had to rely on the priest...

... to interpret Latin and Greek for them.

The OT in particular did not start out as one "book" but as a library of scrolls -- a library that everyone who could read Hebrew knew was written by different people at different times because you could see the "voice" change. The many Jewish commentaries were a necessary part of that library, a century by century reinterpretation of the texts. Early Christians finally wrote down their own piece of the story, and in a few centuries AD learned councils were held to *pare everything down* into the OT and NT that we now have in *one book*.

That 1/3 of Americans -- and possibly more to boot -- are never taught this fact. Far too many think there is only one "voice" in there...

Hekate

[Generic Brad]

86. Did you know "gullible" is not in the dictionary?

At least 1/3 of Americans know what I'm talking about. It says so in the Bible.
O8)

[TheWatcher]

99. Wonderful! Peter Gabriel or Phil Collins Era?

[Warren DeMontague]

118. Oh, dude, that's no contest.

Gabriel, all the way.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

100. Have I Got A Treat For You

Now that you've read Genesis, you HAVE to check out this video clip. It's from Ricky Gervais' stand-up act. He's the guy who created the ORIGINAL BBC version of "The Office" (which, by the way, is far superior in every way--Steve Carell's character can't hold a candle to David Brent), and "Extras," and is making/has made a handful of movies. The guy's a comedic genius, and he's an unapologetic atheist. I think you'll find this clip hilarious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvqlWhsMdfY

[Touchdown]

107. I read a genesis once. "Epileptic warning. Playing video games may cause serious...

:crazy:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

108. They've never actually studied it

For the past hundred years or more, mainstream seminaries have taught their students that there are four different sources interwoven in Genesis, including two consecutive Creation stories and two consecutive accounts of Noah's flood.

We live in a country where being intellectually lazy is considered a virtue.

[harkadog]

109. One thing I have learned from this thread

is that "progressives" can be as intolerant and full of hate as conservatives are. Thank god our President is more open minded that most of the people on this thread. Of course they willfully ignore President Obama's many comments, speeches and interviews on Christianity. You ignore his experience in being "born again" in 1988 that he has written about. Of course all it is just a trick, I know.

[Warren DeMontague]

116. *

:nopity: :eyes:

[harkadog]

120. Thank you for proving my point.

Why are you on a site with the word "Democratic" in it? You certainly don't subscribe to any Democratic ideals.

[Warren DeMontague]

121. Again, Obama's own words on the matter:

I also believe our schools are there to teach worldly knowledge and science. I believe in evolution, and I believe there’s a difference between science and faith. That doesn’t make faith any less important than science. It just means they’re two different things. And I think it’s a mistake to try to cloud the teaching of science with theories that frankly don’t hold up to scientific inquiry.

[harkadog]

122. i would put all those words in bold

But you don't because you are uncomfortable with some of the sentences. I would really make you queasy with an interview he did with the Chicago Sun-Times in 2008 about being born again but it's too late for me to make the effort.

[Warren DeMontague]

126. This one?

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/844597,transcript031508.article

2008, Sun Times. Can't find anything in there about a belief in the literal truth of the book of Genesis. This is the only interview the Sun-Times did with Obama in 2008, and it had to do with Rezko, Wright, and a whole lot of Swift Boat BS.

This article is from 2007- maybe this is the quote you're thinking of?


http://www.suntimes.com/news/falsani/217455,CST-NWS-fals19.article

There are passages of the Bible that make perfect sense to me and others that I go, 'Ya know, I'm not sure about that,'" he said, shrugging and stammering slightly.

I researched it a little more, and came up with this reference to a Sun-Times interview in 2004. See, unlike some people, I believe arguments and debates should center on actual, provable, backed-up-with references FACTS, and not simplistic one-liners and cute evasions. As far as I can tell, this is as close as I can find to what you seem to be talking about, since it is with the Sun-Times and Obama says "yeah" in answering the question "so you got yourself born again".

http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/11/obamas-interview-with-cathleen.html

So, okay- here are some of the relevant quotes from the interview:

*I retain from my childhood and my experiences growing up a suspicion of dogma. And I'm not somebody who is always comfortable with language that implies I've got a monopoly on the truth, or that my faith is automatically transferable to others.



*I am a great admirer of our founding charter, and its resolve to prevent theocracies from forming, and its resolve to prevent disruptive strains of fundamentalism from taking root ion this country.
As I said before, in my own public policy, I'm very suspicious of religious certainty expressing itself in politics.



*FALSANI:
Do you believe in heaven?
OBAMA:
Do I believe in the harps and clouds and wings?
FALSANI:
A place spiritually you go to after you die?
OBAMA:
What I believe in is that if I live my life as well as I can, that I will be rewarded. I don't presume to have knowledge of what happens after I die. But I feel very strongly that whether the reward is in the here and now or in the hereafter, the aligning myself to my faith and my values is a good thing.



*I find it hard to believe that my God would consign four-fifths of the world to hell.
I can't imagine that my God would allow some little Hindu kid in India who never interacts with the Christian faith to somehow burn for all eternity.
That's just not part of my religious makeup.

Feel free to quote other parts of that thing, if you think it will help your case. But nowhere in there does it say that Obama literally believes in the book of Genesis, nowhere does it even come close to saying anything resembling that. So, let's recap, shall we? We have Barack Obama saying "Ya know, I'm not so sure about that" with reference to some things in the Bible. We have Barack Obama stating that 'theories that don't stand up to scientific inquiry' don't belong in scientific teaching. We have Barack Obama clearly dubious on the idea of "heaven" as a place with harps and wings, and we have Barack Obama openly questioning the idea that Christians and Only Christians can get into Heaven- a concept that no doubt is at least as central to most fundamental interpretations of Christianity as the truth of the Book of Genesis.

Nowhere can I find a single reference to him claiming he believes in the literal truth of the book of genesis. He does, however, state unequivocally that he believes in evolution. Here is that entire quote, again, this time not just in bold, but in big fuckin' letters. Happy, now?

"I also believe our schools are there to teach worldly knowledge and science. I believe in evolution, and I believe there’s a difference between science and faith. That doesn’t make faith any less important than science. It just means they’re two different things. And I think it’s a mistake to try to cloud the teaching of science with theories that frankly don’t hold up to scientific inquiry."

(if I was "uncomfortable with the sentences", why the fuck would I bother to quote them to you, repeatedly? Why paste them at all? :shrug:)

Barack Obama is religious, yes. He calls himself a "Christian", yes. He even says "yeah" when asked if he "got himself born again". But that is NOT THE SAME THING as a literal belief in the book of Genesis. You were WRONG. Get it? WRONG.



Now. I went and took all sorts of time to do YOUR research for you. So--- Elsewhere in this thread, you not only claimed that I "don't understand DNA", you said that I was "embarrassing myself" with my lack of understanding. Again, I think that sort of a statement should be backed up with some evidence or explanation. So I'm giving you another chance. Explain, exactly, what it is you think I *don't understand* about DNA, and what, precisely, in my post warrants me feeling "embarrassed".

Once again, I'll wait.

[Touchdown]

117. Give it up. Nobody's buying what you have to sell.

You didn't learn anything. Intolerance and hate have nothing to do with it.

[harkadog]

119. Happy to see you speak for everybody.

[Touchdown]

138. Everybody else's responses to you are obvious. No need to speak for them.

That's what I learned.;)

[mitchum]

137. One thing I have learned from this thread is that many trolls are rather inept

Actually,I already knew that, but thanks for confirming it!

[kid a]

110. "One man's faith is another man's delusion"

[Bolo Boffin]

114. You've got to be carefully taught. n/t

[TexasObserver]

124. Is this the forum where they put heretics on the rack?

What's it like down here?

[cynatnite]

125. Even when I called myself a christian, I never believed it. n/t

[CJCRANE]

129. The Bible stories are ancient sci-fi blockbusters.

They really are fantastic in both senses of the word.

Who couldn't fail to be impressed by a god who can pulverize cities just like the scenes in "Independence Day"?

And Noah's Ark must have been a huge hi-tech superfreighter, not to mention the spaceships in Ezekiel and the apocalyptic sci-fi in the Book of Revelation.

Great stories that shaped the cultures of half of the world.

(The other half were shaped by Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism as well as native and pagan cultures, all of which have their own fantastic stories...but's that for another day).