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Women making progress in protestant churchs, sort of (not really).

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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:40 PM
Original message
Women making progress in protestant churchs, sort of (not really).
<snip>

In the history of their struggle to lead organizations, women have met many of the same challenges in churches as they have in business or government: lower pay than men, mistrust in their capabilities and the need to juggle professional and family lives.

...

In 1999, according to Barna, just 5 percent of Protestant churches' senior pastors were women. This year, the study surveyed 604 pastors throughout the country and found that women now make up 10 percent of U.S. pastors.

...

As in many professions, clergywomen make less money than their male counterparts. Barna found that despite a higher level of education (77 percent of female pastors have a seminary degree compared with 63 percent of men) the average compensation package for female pastors was $45,300, up 30 percent since 1999. For men it was $48,600, up 21 percent in the last decade.



Ah, nothing like equality. And to paraphrase what was said in Mary Poppins, this is nothing like equality.






http://m.stltoday.com/STL/db_10907/contentdetail.htm%3B...
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Patience.
Give it another 2000 years and they'll be up to 20%!
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Here is what I think about patience. It applies to womens rights too:
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. *clears throat*
umm - SA? I was being sarcastic . . . and I'm female, so I tend to agree with you . . .

Just sayin'!

:)
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I knew you were. I was just letting the world know my position again...
:hug:
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Okay!
Thanks! :hug:
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think the Methodists are better than most for having women pastors.
My local little United Methodist church has a woman senior pastor.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. They allow women, as long as they're not lesbians.
There are other denominations that ordain both straight and lesbian women--the UCC, the Episcopalians, and the ELCA.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well, the head of my church (Episcopal) is a woman
My current and last two rectors were women.

It was quite a big to-do more than 30 years ago - but now women are quite comfortably situated in the highest levels of TEC.

In fact, there's no way I would have left the Roman Catholic Church for the Episcopalians if women weren't treated equally. I couldn't see how to raise my kids in a church that discriminates.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Yes, these days its hard to find an Episcopal parish that doesn't have
a woman priest and/or deacon or at least hasn't had one in the recent past.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. It seems
Our last f/t rector (as opposed to interim, who actually was also female!) had to retire for medical reasons only a few years into her tenure - so we've done two searches in a short amount of time. In both cases, it did seem that a good number of the candidates were women. And I think my parish has a preference (wasn't on the search committees, but it seemed this way!) for a woman.

And yes, our deacon is also a woman!

I like that my kids are growing up seeing the idea of a female priest as quite normal.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. My idiot sister-in-law left the Episcopal church when they began ordaining...
women and gay people.

She used to go weekly with my mother,
who still happily attends and is PROUD
that her church has females and gay
people in positions of authority.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. Woman haven't reached parity with men for tobacco use either
I feel sort of the same way about women reaching parity with men in Christian churches. I prefer that everyone, men and women, would just quit.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Well now, we agree, of course, but I was making a different point here... nt.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
13. My tradition's been ordaining women since 1853.
In 2007, the last year for which stats are available, 64.52% of all newly ordained (ordained in 2007) clergy were women. So, things are clearly changing.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Maybe you can answer this then:
1 Timothy 2:12 contains a clear prohibition on women in positions of authority. How do denominations that ordain women reconcile this?
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Leontius Donating Member (380 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Because many of the denominations of the Church are
lead by men and women who actually have an understanding of history and the context of Paul's letters and even the disputed authorship of some of them.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Could you expand on that?
What aspect of the history and context of Paul's letters invalidates this prohibition? The most I've read is that he is only talking about banning women's authority in spiritual and church matters.
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iris27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. They look at Paul's letters at least in part as instructions to the specific church they
were written to, with only the larger spiritual concerns being applicable to all believers. They also look at it in terms of being pretty gender-progressive for the time they were written...other religions had women not even allowed to attend services in the same rooms as men! Paul just prohibited women from being teachers/authority figures in the church.

All churches cherry-pick...even the ones who prohibit women from leadership ignore the prohibitions on speaking in church, having uncovered hair, wearing gold jewelry or braided hair.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Actually, it says women should not have authority over men.
I'm a Girardian, and understand this (and all of scripture) in terms of Mimetic Theory. The key word here is "over". I have no authority over men, or anyone else. My authority is equal to the men in my congregation and profession, not greater. Any time anyone begins to see themself as "over" anyone else, one begins the move toward mimetic rivalry, conflict and violence. This is actually what Jesus came to put an end to.

In the Garden of Eden story, which Paul cites here, the woman falls victim to the mimetic conflict that Satan puts into her head. She is the first victim of mimetic rivalry, and that negative mimesis builds to consume Adam and to become destructive. All mimetic rivalries are ultimately destructive, and need to be challenged.

Timothy's church was in the midst of conflict over some kind of "false teachings". Because the NT is so deeply concerned about conflict and rivalries, that is probably what's going on in this case. It's likely that a woman is involved in that conflict. Mimetic conflict is always about someone claiming to be "over" someone else. Paul is warning against that kind of behavior, and asking that no one be "over" anyone else.

Women are not to be in authority over others. Neither is anyone else.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Thanks.
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iris27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
21. And yet the denomination that brought me up still explicitly prohibits ANY
women from becoming pastors...sigh...
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. What denomination? nt
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Rob H. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Southern Baptist churches don't allow women pastors
Edited on Sun Sep-27-09 08:59 AM by Rob H.
Are they considered Protestant? (I'm not a churchgoer so I honestly don't know.) That may not be the denomination to which iris27 belonged, anyway, though.

They aren't too keen on women having leadership roles, period, unless they're only leading other women. I know a woman who was trying to get a job teaching a class at a local Southern Baptist megachurch (and bear in mind that the class had nothing to do with religion) and the men making the decision on whether to hire her almost didn't because she would've been teaching both women and men. She was able to find relevant Bible verses that made it okay, but if she hadn't they probably wouldn't have hired her.

The sad thing is, I think she's now a member of that church. :(


Edit: missing word
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. There are lots of denominations that don't ordain women--
Southern Baptists, Evangelical Free, Presbyterian Church in America, Missouri Synod Lutheran, Wisconsin Synod Lutheran and several other denominations don't ordain women. The interesting thing about the SBC is that they used to ordain women, before the convention was taken over by its conservative wing.
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TCJ70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
25. Not all protestant churches are the same...
...my denomination has had women leaders for well over 100 years. Even had a woman as the head of the denomination as early as it's fourth leadership pick. The times are a changin' (for others...heh).
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