Miracles are inferior to the real stuff!

[hyphenate]

So, the Christian fundies (especially) like to talk about how something that (supposedly) appears to have no explanation otherwise gets classified as a "miracle" and that's their final answer.

And so, they go to these really big tent revival thingamagigs, and things supposedly happen there that defy real possibilities, and the whole congregation goes "ooh," and "aah" and they figure they've made it through another whole day just waiting for the Apocalypse, and that's part of the miracle, too.

My fundie ex-friend would look at a pretty sunset or dusk, or whatever, and at one point she said it looked like "god's thumbprint" in the sky and oooh, aaah, how excellent.

Well, this, to me, is bullshit. Another friend and I were talking about this a couple of days ago, and I said that anyone who could attribute such an event as being the work of the Xtian god has gotten simple in the head. How if that's all these people can say looking at such a beautiful event, they are dumber and more ignorant than most people in third world nations. Because the truth is, science is far better, far more of a "miracle" than anything these fundies could dream of, and they know it.

Talking about how a rainbow is formed, from droplets of water in the air, and how the sun takes each droplet, and makes it into a prism, and brings us the miracle of a rainbow. How beautiful it sounds to actually understand the science behind it, and how a pat "god did it!" renders it not only crude, but also ignorant. In this sense, one is reminded of all the myths that were originally created to explain complex scientific processes, and to make up some answer that otherwise went unexplained.

I think daily of how those who would rather accept a god of limited scope appear to be afraid of the truth. As one character in a movie hollered once, "You can't handle the truth!" and that gets more obvious every day how these people get deeper and deeper into the abyss of ignorance.

Science is quite beautiful. Ever see a picture from space, where, for example, the Hubble has taken pictures of a star nursery? Or deep within the ocean depths, where strange living organisms live on the edge of an entry into the mantle, blind? There are so many wonderful and thrilling parts of our lives that can never be explained away by these people as a "miracle" but are, in fact, more miraculous than anything they claim came from their "god."

And another thing: science is accessible to everyone, not just scholars, or priests, or people like Robertson, Falwell, Haggard, or any of those other idiots who make themselves out to be the handmaidens--oops, make that handmasters(we won't say what they've learned to master with their hands)--of god.

Science, as the NSF joyfully proclaims, is awesome. And in my mind, it's 1000 times better than telling the world how ignorant you are by saying it's a miracle from "god." Perhaps the science was influenced by some godlike creator billions of years ago, but we learned a long time ago that exploration of all that intrigues us is a major part of why we function. Curiosity is a part of our species, and likely will be always. Science is the real miracle, one which proves without a doubt a consistent and verifiable explanation.

Better than any old prophet could ever do.

[lindisfarne]

1. I always find it interesting that something good is a miracle sent by god, but rarely is something

bad that befalls someone perceived as something sent by god.
Sometimes, miracle is just used to mean something good that happened and isn't really understood.
But for those who really intend it to mean "sent by god": I wish they'd think about what they imply when they say some who recovers has been helped by god. That implies that if you die from an illness, god chose not to help you (assuming you believe in god or interventionist god).

You can't have it both ways, folks!

[hyphenate]

11. At Youtube

there are a lot of videos of Penn and Teller, and most of them are worth watching, but here is a link to a 10 minute segment that talks about alleged miracles. It is all common sense, something the fundies, and the relgious right in particular, very much lack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RV46fsmx6E

[lapfog_1]

2. There are two mathematical concepts that the average person

has a hard time understanding.

(well, at least two... I'm sure there are more).

One: Large Numbers.

Large numbers are simply inconceivable to many people. That's why it's really hard to imagine millions of years ( geologic time scale, evolution, etc) or the size of the universe.

Two: Probability.

Just because something is improbable, doesn't mean that when it happens that strange forces are at work. The same can be said for probable events.

We were just discussing this at dinner tonight. My ex-brother-in-law is an ER doc. A guy is walking home from college, trips on a tree root while cutting through the park, and falls. It just happens that he had a pen in his shirt pocket. Somehow, as he fell to the ground, the pen either moved or came out of the pocket, implanted with the pointy end up and stabbed the guy through the heart. Killed him. Sad story, highly improbable... but it happened. Not a miracle or a work of the devil, just probability.

[lindisfarne]

5. You walk into the grocery store parking lot&are full of wonder:what are the chances I'd see license

plate KEL583 tonight? Wow. The odds of that are 26x26x26x10x10x10.
What a miracle that I saw this license plate tonight!

[lapfog_1]

8. You assume that the state makes license plates

by choosing the letters and numbers at random.

However, that's not true (for all the states that I know about).

They usually make them in sequence, and the first few letters are chosen to represent a "series" (sometimes a county abbreviation or other chosen starting sequence).

[lindisfarne]

9. Not true where I live. Certain combinations that spell out offensive words would be disallowed but

that does not really affect my point.

[RandomThoughts]

3. Well there are two types of miracles in my view of things.

Those that show the wonder and glory of Almighty God, and those that effect the flow of society by the power of Almighty God.

In my belief effecting society does not get seen, since changes to all of society are incorporated within society. When a change occurs nobody would know it had occurred because of the total encompassing of the change. For example, if every person in existence was given four fingers and a thumb on each hand, nobody would know that the day before everyone had three fingers and a thumb, because in my belief God has control of all time and space and in that if he chose to change something it would change through all time.

However God making changes would not seem to have much learning effect for people, so I think there are other types of miracles that show the greatness and love of God, and also help people that need such help to show his grace and mercy. And by being shown and known they can also add learning or inspire thought on the topics.


Maybe believing in only science is the actual not being able to accept the truth?

[ZombieHorde]

6. "Maybe believing in only science is the actual not being able to accept the truth?"

I don't think anyone here "only believes in science".

I imagine most readers of this post believe this post is real, but this post is not science.

[RandomThoughts]

7. I agree, people have many beliefs.

And I also agree that science is fun and interesting. I enjoy shows that try and figure out mysteries of science. Although sometimes people have, and this may be my bias, believe something has to be provable to exist. I like lots of the science theories that are philosophies also that can not be proven.

Anyway, I agree many people of science have many beliefs on things. Not sure what your last line was suppose to mean. If 'this post' meant my post, I agree it is not science, it is just some thoughts I have on things, and in that they may be right or wrong, but are some thoughts I find interesting, although others can disagree.

[ZombieHorde]

10. Let me reword my confusing sentence.

I imagine most people believe socks are real, but socks are not science.

[SecularMotion]

13. Please provide an example of

a science theory that is a philosophy that can not be proven. The statement makes no sense to me. Scientific theories are generally supported by evidence and tested by scientific method. Please help me understand.

[rrneck]

12. Uh, okay.

What you are describing is fiction. You made it up, or someone made it up for you. And that's fine. In fact, the activity of creating fictional narratives is a basic and important part of the human experience.

We only get into trouble when we try to present fiction as objective fact. When done perniciously they are called lies.

The story of why humans have four fingers rather than three and how that change came about would be fascinating and we could learn much from it.

Tell us the story.

on edit:
That typo was real

[hyphenate]

14. Which is why

science has the edge over religious explanations--they can be proven, and they're not hearsay, a problem religion has all the time: it's kind of insane to try and make out who write what and when, and attribute widely dissimilar styles to the same people. Even trying to figure out why certain books and "gospels" were left out, or deemed heresy, and making all of that crap try to be a single voice is irrational. The only one I would assume was left out because a woman wrote it, was the book of Mary Magdalene.

I tried reasoning with a fundie once, and came away more angered because a raging bull would have been easier to convince. I guess if you're going to adopt a completely ridiculous attitude, you have to be already more than half insane to begin with.

I have no qualms with folks who follow the spirit of the bible, but who are sane enough to understand it's not a manual, only a tool to guide. The main problem is those who have made it into a manual, and who try to take the government with them.

[rrneck]

15. Absolutely.

I haven't read the bible in decades, but I remember one verse:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)

Now I am sure there are bunches of theologians who will quibble with this, but that verse in the context of a pre literate society does not refer to a text. It refers to an activity. It is talking about people talking to people. It is talking about telling stories. Those legends, myths, and parables were supposed to be told and told again, growing and changing with changing times and interpretations. I have a sneaking suspicion that Christianity jumped the shark around 1450 when the Gutenberg Bible was printed.

I agree that any apologist of religion will have a hard time here because there are a lot of people who are unwilling to suspend disbelief and hear a story, which is the foundation of religious practice. It seems to me that religion functions best on a small scale, among people face to face with each other. When it becomes a performance or a mass produced product, it's not religion any more.



Plus, when you tell stories you don't have to worry about typos.

[aquart]

4. A miracle is anything that happens when you need it to happen.

Because it doesn't have to.

A tenet of protestantism ripped from Shakespeare is that "miracles are ceas'd." I say POOEY to that.