I See What the Atheists Mean

[Richd506]

The other day, I was walking down the street when I saw a man who was handing out brochures and there was a sign that was next to him which read "why it's good to be an atheist". I stood around talking to him for a while and as I did, nearly everyone that walked by were very rude to him. One girl, took one of the brochures, ripped it up in front of him and threw it in the trash. And nearly everyone else averted their eyes as if there was somebody naked in front of them.

Then some family walked by and the mother told her children "close your eyes!" and threw the atheist a dirty look. She then said to him "How dare you do this in front of children?" The atheist replied "This is a free country. We have the right to express our beliefs."

Well apparently the husband didn't like that and came back so he could badger him. He kept asking the same question over and over again which was "what is an atheist?" and over and over again, the atheist kept answering his question. But apparently it kept going through one ear and out the other.

Then the wife came back and tried to convince the husband to just leave. He asked again "what is an atheist?" and the wife responded "those are people who think they are their own gods." The atheist replied "that's not true" and she bit back yelling "YES IT IS TRUE!" and stomped off. I guess those people were supposed to be Christians but I couldn't tell because they weren't acting like Christians.

Just thought I'd share that story with you.

[rockymountaindem]

1. Whenever I see people handing out pamphlets about burning in hell

which is frequently, I might add, since they seem to love hanging out in front of baseball stadiums, it seems to me that most people just ignore them. I guess people won't grant the atheists the same courtesy.

[Towlie]

7. Folks will tolerate the wackiest beliefs before they'll tolerate no belief at all.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. atheism is a very powerful and difficult belief.

it frightens people. The need their myths.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

30. Equivalent to pondering infinity.

:scared:

[PurityOfEssence]

84. Boy, ya got that right.

I presume by "no belief" you mean no assumption of some supernatural whoseywhatzit, rather than amorality. That IS what you meant, right?

If so, I completely agree. So very many people simply are on permanent "tilt" if they think there's no big overseer keeping them in line, and are in frozen dread at the concept of morality and non-specialness. Not only do atheism and agnosticism not preclude ethical behavior, they actually promote it more than most supernatural belief systems. Those who sign on to a religious belief often simply buy it off the rack, without thinking why certain behavior is right or wrong. Inquisitiveness is sheer terror for many, and they have a student's mentality about life: follow the rules, get patted on the head, and everyone good will love you and the rest of your existence will be the bland and automatic bliss and approval that they crave in their quest to never have to think or decide again.

There's a reason why people get so violent when their beliefs are questioned: they're ridiculous, and don't bear even the most cursory scrutiny; questioning them must be quashed immediately. It also explains a lot of evangelism: they believe in such silly things that they have to get others to agree with them to help still the nagging whisper within that it's all ridiculous and that we're all going to die, period.

[geckosfeet]

14. ... and football stadiums

[niyad]

2. thank you for sharing it--sounds like something that would happen here, what with

fungus on the family (aka focus on the family, or focus on fascism) new life, and about 200 other tax-exempt, fundie, reichwing "churches" around here. the tax-exempt part really gripes me, especially since they are so heavily involved in politics.

[madaboutharry]

3. I always wonder what it is about god and relligion that has the

power to bring out the best in some and the worst in others.

[Towlie]

4. That was certainly not an ordinary average atheist doing that.

As a rule, atheists don't stand in the street handing out brochures. That's something religious extremists do. It sounds like this guy was a rare sort of case who represents only himself.

[donco6]

8. So . . . it was a bad thing to do? Or what?

[Sal Minella]

21. Maybe he was just trying to show the fundies what THEY look like,

pushing their unwanted beliefs on people?

I'm just amazed that anyone thinks it's a good idea to knock on someone's door and say, essentially, "Hey, I don't know what your religion is, and I don't care, but whatever it is, MINE is BETTER, and I'm here to shove it down your throat!"

[Starry Messenger]

37. Sounds more like performance art to me.

Embrace the weird.

[alfredo]

47. to me the existence of a deity or non existence really doesn't matter.

I really don't give a shit about cloud people or horned creatures under the ground. Some of the stories are interesting, especially the ones from Greece and Rome, but most of them read like political screeds.

[Towlie]

49. How about the influence believers have on your government and your rights? Does that matter?

[alfredo]

55. That matters. We have hundreds of acres of land in our town that is not

paying property tax. That property is owned by churches. They want to run our lives, but they do not want to contribute to our community. The conservative churches have left the inner city for the suburbs, abandoning the poor and dispossessed. One kid I knew was badly deformed. The church he belonged to moved to the suburbs. Each Sunday he rode his adult trike to the church. Of course the parishioners complained about his body odor, and even went as far as complaining that his appearance scared the kids.

He risked his life each Sunday to take his trike onto the road to his church, but that didn't seem to matter to the well heeled of his church.

[Pacifist Patriot]

52. Not at all. Last December when I was in Washington DC...

a very polite group of young atheists were passing out packets of pamphlets from the American Humanist Association in Dupont Circle. They weren't extremists, just disseminating information about their own beliefs in the midst of the holiday season. I found them to be very courteous and personable. And representing an organization, not representing themselves.

[Regret My New Name]

76. I'd assume maybe he was doing it to prove a point of sorts...

Religious people like to hand out such things and when people complain they say they have every right to and you can always ignore them... When I hear that, I often wonder how they would react if the situation was turned around.

[On the Road]

127. Or

he may have been converted to atheism from a religion of some sort. Converts are often the most energetic proselytizers.

[sakabatou]

5. SOme theists just love to project

even if they're not aware of it.

[PurityOfEssence]

85. Shit-headedness is a species-wide affliction

Many believers can come up with many stories of intellectual bullies they've known who ridiculed their religious beliefs. There's also an arrogance among many non-believers that they're smarter in general, and that's poison, especially considering most people's insecurity about their own intelligence.

Naming an organization "The Brights" simply makes me cringe; it's just more gas on the bonfire.

One of the ongoing annoyances about outcries of the downtrodden is a recurring bigotry from below that they're "superior". Acceptance is a fine thing, but many harbor a desire to become the privileged. It's the human condition: many people just plain suck, and they exist in every race, gender, political affiliation and sexual preference. When dealing in heated arguments, though, a whole lot of horse shit is shoveled out with the demand that it be accepted for one to be allowed further audience on the public square.

[TommyO]

6. The sad fact is that some people, like the ones you saw

have to denigrate others to make them feel comfortable in their beliefs. The more fundamentalist somebody is, the more likely they are to attack others.

[MineralMan]

9. Well, I don't know, but I can't imagine anything

less worthwhile than handing out brochures on atheism on the street. I've been an atheist for something like 40 years, and can't imagine trying to convince anyone that atheism is something to "convert" to.

In fact, I can't see what you'd tell people. That you don't believe that any deities exist? Why would any one care about that. Atheism is not a positive belief, so there's no belief to teach. It is simply a rejection of the supernatural.

If I saw the atheist proselytizer, I'd walk on, too.

Now, however, if you're into poutrage from others, there's probably no better way than to hand out literature on atheism. I'd do it in front of a fundamentalcase church, though, as services were letting out. You'd get your full measure of poutrage there.

[NutmegYankee]

35. I also found that odd.

People of faith preach because they sincerely believe you will suffer if you do not turn to God before death, but if you don't believe in life after death, then why preach? It'll all go black for them regardless of what they believe.

[RufusTFirefly]

43. Perhaps because atheism opens the door to accepting the wonder of the world in its own right?

without some fairy tale to explain it?

When you think about it, that can be an extremely positive, awe-inspiring, and empowering realization.

I think atheists get a really bad rap as spoilsports and naysayers, when in fact many of us marvel at the beauty and complexity of the world around us. It's a matter of opening your eyes instead of living in a Bronze Age dream.

[PassingFair]

41. Rejection of belief in the supernature IS a positive belief.

I like to know that I'm not the
only person out there with an
acceptance of reality.

There's strength in numbers.

I would have taken the brochure
as gladly as I once picked up
the pamphlet "Why I Am Not a Christian"
by Bertie Russell.

http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html

[MineralMan]

50. I was speaking of positive in a different sense, actually.

I do not use positive and negative as words having to do with good and bad.

An atheist may have negative belief in deities, and a lousy world view at the same time. So, you see what I mean, I hope. Not believing in supernatural entities is negative, but does not imply anything else for good or bad. It is simply a negative belief.

One may be an atheist and have a powerfully good world view. Or, as we have all seen, one may be an atheist and have a powerfully pessimistic world view.

I prefer to use positive and negative as logical terms, rather than in other ways. There are better words for those purposes.

[dorkulon]

59. But what is it about a (logically) negative belief that makes it less worthwhile

or worthy of communication to the public? Our society would surely benefit from a widespread rejection of the supernatural. I don't generally think confronting people on the street is a good way to convince them of anything, but certainly there's nothing about atheism that makes it a worse idea to spread through any means than a "positive" belief, such as Christianity or Hare Krishna or whatever.

[MineralMan]

61. Oh, I don't mind if the guy wants to leaflet on the street...

futile as it is. He's free to do whatever he wishes. He will, however receive some angry comment from passers-by, and will convince nobody.

I fail to find a reason to care what another person believes. It is behavior alone that concerns me.

[dorkulon]

66. That's like saying "I don't care how much bacon you eat, it's your cholesterol that concerns me."

Belief affects behavior. People die every day because of the deeply held supernatural beliefs of others. If you're concerned about behavior, you are implicitly concerned about beliefs.

I agree this guy's method is ineffective at best, but to say there's no reason to care what others believe is practically solipsism. Of course it matters.

[MineralMan]

73. How does it matter, please?

My Mother-in-law is a Lutheran. She believes that she will see her dead husband in Heaven when she dies. Why should I disabuse her of that idea? Of what benefit would that be. We get along just fine, and none of her behavior affects me.

When I say I do not care what others believe, with regard to supernatural entities, I mean exactly that. Their beliefs neither, to quote a great American, "break my leg nor pick my pocket." It is behavior that affects me...not the belief of others.

Since I expect people to treat me as I treat them, regardless of my beliefs regarding the supernatural, I will extend to them the same honor. If, however, they BEHAVE in ways that restrict my freedom to believe or disbelieve as I choose, I will contend with them over their BEHAVIOR.

[ImOnlySleeping]

121. I believe what they meant

Was that a religious belief can affect behaviour in areas outside of religion. If one believes that god is on their side, then they can treat those that disagree as inferiors. Whether that leads to abortion clinic shootings or suicide bombs or declaring war, none of it is good for life in general. Religious beliefs are often used by those in power to convince others to follow along.

[PassingFair]

68. This doesn't make any sense.

By your definition, a religious person has
a negative belief in reality-based thinking.

I'm not ascribing good or bad, either,
logically speaking, reality-based thinking
IS a positive belief.

[MineralMan]

78. I'm not sure I follow you.

I know many people who have religious beliefs who have no difficulty in considering the world in real terms. Do you not know such people?

[PassingFair]

101. No.

They pretty much think
that there is reward and/or
punishment in fantasy realms.

[Duke Newcombe]

128. I then encourage you to get out more and meet a superset of believers...

larger than the one you have experience with. Advice worth what you pay for it.

[Pacifist Patriot]

107. I've mentioned this elsewhere in the thread, but it really isn't about proselytizing.

I know the literature in the OP was described as being "Why It's Good to Be an Atheist," but I'd bet dollars to donuts the individual's purpose was not conversion.

Freethought Societies, the American Humanist Association and other groups (and I suppose individual atheists if they are so inclined) do distribute literature in public. The purpose of such distribution is two-fold.

1. To let doubters and atheists know that they are not alone. Unbelief can be isolating, especially if one's family of origin and/or community are highly religious. Too many atheists think they don't have access to like minded individuals with whom they can interact.

The focus of the literature is often on ethics and being "good without God."

2. To disseminate the information that atheists do believe in something. Ethical behavior in both human relations and with respect to our planet.

[frebrd]

10. What is it about Atheists.......

that is so terribly frightening to religionists?

Why are they so fragile?

:shrug:

[Pool Hall Ace]

83. Well, I'm not an athiest

But I am not frightened of them at all. In fact, the kindest, most honest people I know are athiests. I do admit that I am frightened of Christians, however!

[Vinca]

11. The people being nasty to the atheist should have been grateful

he wasn't going door-to-door like certain other people do. Who hasn't taken a Watchtower just to get rid of them?

[niyad]

16. me--I don't take watchtower, or any other fundie tract--just tell them no and shut the door.

saves wear and tear on my nerves.

[Arkansas Granny]

22. I just tell them no, I'm not interested. They wish me a good day and then they leave.

[Warren Stupidity]

12. I am the god of me!

In a sense that is true. I restrict my spirituality to my experience of my life in the universe around me. My appreciation of the divine, of the wonder of existence itself, does not extrapolate to some external supernatural being. We are each and every one of us, in all our variety of consciousness and self awareness, an expression of that wonder, of the divine. But that is a divinity that has no gods. I am the god of me.

[MineralMan]

15. An additional note:

There is no such thing as "the atheists." Rarely have I met a more disparate group than atheists. A lack of belief in supernatural entities is not indicative of views on much of anything else. So...atheists don't normally form organizations based on their non-belief. What would be the point?

The only organization of atheists I've ever looked at thrived on their annoyance at the religious. Seemed a worthless reason to gather together.

[niyad]

17. one thing I usually do, although not recently, is go to a freethinkers meeting, and collect

all the material--which I hand out to any idiot proselytizing on the streets. annoys the hell out of them, and amuses me no end.

[redqueen]

126. That's hilarious.

:)

[geckosfeet]

18. WTF. Was he standing in front of a church on sunday morning?

Sounds like the god believers just had a refill and are fearful and angry at having their beliefs questioned.

[Warpy]

19. The reason some believers react with naked hostility

whenever we step out of our "I'm just not religious" closet is because they're private doubters.

I've found those are the most likely to become nasty and defensive. It seems they can only maintain the facade of belief when everyone around them agrees with it.

[Sal Minella]

26. Yes. "Oh behold how handsome and fine are the Emperor's new clothes."

[Marr]

28. Yep. I agree. n/t

[dorkulon]

60. Yes.

Same thing with violent homophobes.

[JonQ]

20. I don't appreciate people of any belief

trying to proselytize random folks on the street (or in their homes) who clearly aren't interested. Pushing a lack of faith on someone is just as annoying as pushing any particular faith.

Just be content that you believe what you do, who cares if anyone else does. And this is coming from a solid agnostic.

[Chulanowa]

23. Well, the same could be said for any other minority that gets stepped on, right?

No doubt you don't appreciate people of any color or sexuality or gender trying to "force their beliefs down your throat" as well?

There's a BIG difference between a guy handing out things that say "why atheism is okay" and another guy handing out pamphlets saying "You're going to hell, Jews and Catholics serve Satan, go to my church"

[JonQ]

24. Race and gender are equivalent to religious beliefs?

Really, so you can choose your race/gender in the same way as you choose your religion, and you can convert others?

A religion, by definition, has a defined mentality. You can't for instance be a christian and not believe in jesus.

A race, which is poorly defined to begin with, does not have an established belief system. Unless you believe that all minorities think the same way, and are a homogeneous mass, defined by their skin color, rather than by individual merits.

[Chulanowa]

33. So it's okay to demonize, attack and mistreat others based on their religious beliefs?

Is that what you're saying? That since belief isn't a genetic trait, that it should be open season to harass, berate, fire, and intimidate those that don't share your own?

Of course it's not.

My point is, I have no problem with a mistreated minority - genetic or otherwise - handing out "I'm okay. No, really! I'm not the devil!" fliers.

[JonQ]

44. I have no problem with criticizing people based on their beliefs

seems like that should be absolutely up for criticism. Free speech and all that.

I'd better not catch you criticizing scientologists, or the KKK, or hari krishnas, or rush limbaugh fans, or branch davidians, or satanists, or any other group that is defined by having non-mainstream beliefs.

[MineralMan]

51. It is one thing to criticize a belief system.

It is quite another to criticize people for holding a belief system. I can easily argue the non-existance of supernatural entities without arguing that those who believe that such exist are bad people. The two are not necessarily connected.

[JonQ]

65. But that goes both ways

I've heard many strident athiests branding all people of faith as stupid or mindless sheep, etc. Not just their beliefs, but the individuals themselves. Obviously it happens less, but that's probably simply because there are fewer atheists.

People of all faiths, or a strong lack of faith, tend towards intolerance.

And even though it isn't necessarily fair, criticizing people individually for their beliefs is still protected speech.

[MineralMan]

75. No doubt.

It is BEHAVIOR, not BELIEF which may be rightly judged.

One my rightly criticize a belief system, but not persons for holding a belief system, unless they act on their beliefs to the detriment of others.

I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand. It's the foundation of our First Amendment.

Believe as you will. Leave me alone to believe as I will. If we BEHAVE in that way, beliefs will not interfere with either of us.

[JonQ]

79. And I was criticizing this person

and others for their behaviors, not their beliefs. Proselytizing is a behavior, not a belief system. I welcome people to enjoy whatever belief they choose. I simply get annoyed when they feel the need to throw it in my face, regardless of the details.

[Duke Newcombe]

129. No. Not much difference at all.

[rrneck]

32. Proselytizing on the street

(as long as you don't create a disturbance) is fine. That's a first amendment issue. Picking me out of a crowd and pestering me about it will piss me off.

[JonQ]

45. Why is it ok to espouse your beliefs on the street

but not ok for someone on the street being proselytized to respond? Seems like the 1st amendment would cover both.

Fact is this guy was out looking for attention and converts and as such is fair game for criticism. You open yourself up like that in public you can't expect everyone to either agree or be quiet.

[rrneck]

56. It's just fine to broadcast all you want,

but interrupting people to push an idea is a violation of their personal space and if you do it to enough people a disturbance of the peace.

I wouldn't care if they were lined up shoulder to shoulder from one end of the street to the other as long as I can get a cup of coffee without being interrupted or harassed. (Harassment includes bullhorns or other excessive distractions.) Put up a sign, offer literature, be available for conversation, all legal and an important part of the marketplace of ideas.

I don't doubt this atheist fellow was looking for attention. I don't know what kind of attention he was looking for. If he was trying to provoke a confrontation, then he was wrong. If he was unwilling or unable to fairly and courteously respond to those who disagree with him, he was doubly wrong. It is also possible that the Christians who interacted discourteously with him were way too easily offended. He had every right to be there and voice his opinion. The amendments to the constitution are there to protect the individual from the tyranny of the majority. Atheists are clearly in the minority in this country, and the christian majority needs to be reminded that they don't own the place.

I agree though that if anyone wants to voice an opinion they need to be prepared to hear a response. You stand on a soap box and stick your head up, like as not somebody will throw a brick at it.

[JonQ]

63. I think alot depends on where you draw the line

between being merely confrontational and actually harrassing the person. From the OP it sounded like he was merely being confronted. Not prevented from giving his spiel, or threatened directly. If they were taking his material away or threatening him with physical harm obviously that crosses the line.

But merely being very loud and obnoxious in your retort is still covered by the constitution.

[rrneck]

89. yep nt

[Pacifist Patriot]

53. Oh I don't know. Offering to hand something to someone doesn't force them to take it.

If they aren't interested they won't stop and take the pamphlets. I don't see this as pushing so much as exposure.

Likewise, religious groups can wave pamphlets at me all the want, I'm not going to stop and accept it. If it does get thrust in my hands, I'm not going to read it.

Not a thing wrong with sharing information you feel might be helpful to someone. A polite "no thank you" response or just a walk on by is all that is necessary.

[JonQ]

67. True

but somehow I doubt the guy in question was merely passively handing out pamphlets, and otherwise being quiet and polite.

There is a type of person who feels the need to spread their beliefs in this manner. And that type doesn't tend to be tolerant, respectful or polite.

[Pacifist Patriot]

96. Really?

Whether doctrinal, atheist, political, social justice, etc. I've actually experienced people handing out pamphlets to be sincere yet polite. Usually they are the ones on the receiving end of rude behavior rather than the other way around. Guess we have vastly different experience.

[moggie]

105. What about secular beliefs?

Let's say someone is standing on the street handing out leaflets entitled "Free Tibet", "American healthcare is broken" or "End puppy farming now". Would this be a bad thing?

[Bill McBlueState]

130. I don't mind it at all

We would have stronger communities if people spent more time discussing with their neighbors what they believe.

In the case of evangelical Christianity, it's not the *act* of evangelism that bugs me, it's the patently unverifiable beliefs that constitute the evangelism.

[madmom]

25. My mother in law claims to be a good christian and a democrat. She

was very nice to me and my children for many years. She has always know I didn't believe. One day almost exactly one year ago today, she was at my house an invited guest to a cook out. She went ballistic on me because I decided to have a margarita with my Mexican meal.I asked my daughter ( 24 at the time) if she wanted one. My m-i-l went off on both of us because we are no good and I will rot in hell and on and on, and how we needed to start going to her church and be "born again".Finally, she left, but only after finishing her meal. I went outside to keep from saying what I wanted to say to my husband's mother. I later found out she told his sisters that I got in her face and attacked her verbally. They in turn told my niece that I "was loosing it". My niece got worried and talked to MY mother about it and got MY mother all upset (she's 3 states away from me)because I might be having mental problems (history of bi-polar in family)Now I ask how am I supposed to treat these "good christians"? All of this is supposedly because I don't believe in gawd and I dared to have an alcoholic drink with my daughter in my own home.I have not spoken to any of my husband's family since and he has spoken with them on a very limited bases. If this is what "being christian" is all about, I'm glad I am not a member of that party! These people sound very much like my husband's family.

[NutmegYankee]

36. The alcohol thing is odd.

Half of Christians like myself see it as a sign God loves us, especially good wine;-), and certain groups consider it evil. It's damned odd.

[madmom]

39. I'm sure that comes from the fact that her husband (now deceased) was an alcoholic. But I

am an occasional drinker. If I have more than 2-3 drinks every 6 months or so it's is quite unusual, and she knows this.

[drmeow]

46. Actually, if this was atypical behavior

you seriously might want to get her evaluated. Changes in behavior (like that) can be indicative of stuff like Alzheimer's.

[madmom]

64. I have mentioned this to my husband and he agrees, but his oldest sister is the

"care provider", power of attorney and "new" matriarch of the family and she is the same way and won't hear of it.His mother is 83, she lives on her own. After her husband died she stayed busy for a while, then her last sister died and her closest friend then she turned to her church. They where in the process of building a new mega church so she jumped in with both feet. I honestly think she has been brainwashed by them. His younger brother is a deacon in the church and his family is VERY right wing.My son is helping her with with maintenance on her house (he is unemployed and she is paying him) before she could get a new roof, she had to get permission from the older sister to spend her own money. I told my son that I personally would stay out of this situation but he said, she is determined to do this so it might as well be me getting paid and that way we know she isn't getting cheated.
My husband is seeing his older sister with rose colored glasses because "she raised me while mom and dad were working."

[drmeow]

103. Sounds frustrating

and like your SIL is very controlling. Your son could use his presence to monitor for abuse.

Sorry you're having to go through this.

[Pacifist Patriot]

112. I agree with drmeow.

At her age and if the behavior is novel and atypical it could very well signal the onset of senile dementia. My mother went through this with her mother and it was very painful for everyone involved. You have my sympathy too.

[JonQ]

48. Alcohol is evil

that's why jesus turned all the wine in to water.

[Warpy]

81. I'd advise leaving her off the guest list for parties

I'd have your daughter call your mother with the facts to put her mind at ease.

I'd only advise meeting MIL at low key situations where she won't find anything to scream about. If she pulls that shit again, recognize that your husband will have to be the one to maintain contact from now on.

She's your husband's mother and you can't cut her off completely. However, you can limit the amount of abuse she can give you.

This is her problem, not yours, and if she recognizes that, perhaps you can maintain a better relationship.

Most Christians are reasonable folks, you know.

[Marr]

27. They weren't acting like Christians?

Of course they were. There are asshole Christians and kind Christians. Bigoted Christians and non-bigoted Christians. They're all equally Christian.

[MajorChode]

91. Since when have Christians ever acted per the teachings of Christ?

Christ was a pacifist and an advocate for the poor and disenfranchised. I don't see too many Christians trying to walk in his shoes.

The funny thing is, no where in the gospels does Christ ever refer to himself as a God. He was deified hundreds of years after his death. There are a few Christians who do not believe in the Trinity (of which also no reference in the gospels can be found), but not many.

[AllentownJake]

29. I believe in Jesus Christ

I believe in his message of forgiveness hope and understanding for the world. I believe that the powers that be at the time didn't like his message that much. They killed him.

The story makes sense till you try to tell me he rose from the dead.

[Towlie]

58. Then you believe in the message, not Jesus.

And you'd believe in it with or without him. The reason you admire Jesus on moral issues is that he said things that you already knew.

Whether we realize it or not, with the advantage of our modern perspective we tend to see ourselves in a position superior to Jesus, so we feel free to judge him. We regard him as being ahead of his time, although a bit behind our time. We don't really learn from him so much as we agree with him, at least up to a point.

But Jesus wasn't killed because of his message that folks should be nice to each other, he was killed because he was a dangerous inspiration to his followers to attempt a revolt against Rome, which would have been a disastrous failure.

[AllentownJake]

72. Actually

My reading is the Religious authorities killed him. They had gotten a pretty cozy deal with the empire and his message that you don't need them to experience God, bad for business.

Romans did them a favor, as they were prone to do from time to time to keep the peace.

[Towlie]

87. Yes, your reading is correct. The religious authorities killed him (more correctly, had him killed.)

They did so because he was being hailed as the Messiah, or "King of the Jews", whose prophesied destiny was to lead the Jews in a glorious revolt against their oppressors (Rome, in this case).

If Jesus had still been alive during the Passover, that revolt, with its disastrous consequences, might have happened. Thus it was vitally necessary to get rid of him the day before.

[Pacifist Patriot]

108. To believe in Jesus doesn't meant you have to accept the ...

universal savior myth that is an overlay to his teaching. His biography follows the myth pattern of a number of gods, but when that is stripped away there is still something to believe in about the man and his message. I suppose it comes down to what one thinks "to believe in" really means, so here we are back at semantics.

Unitarian Christians believe in Jesus and consider do consider themselves Christian despite their belief that the virgin birth/resurrection require metaphorical interpretation rather than literal acceptance. My Southern Baptist relatives? Unitarian Christians are apostates who conduct devil worship in their sanctuaries and eat babies. Bit of an impasse.

Astounding dirth of verifiable information about a man with unprecedented influence over human events. If he did exist as an historical figure, the most likely scenario is the Romans are the ones who felt threatened and had him executed. The complicity of the Jews and the white washing of Roman responsibility was developed in the story following the destruction of Jerusalem in the uprising.

[Fire1]

94. Then you don't believe in Him. n/t

[Pacifist Patriot]

109. It's not your place to dictate.

[Fire1]

114. And it's not your place to tell people where their place is or is

not. Follow your own advice.

[Pacifist Patriot]

115. Cute

[david13]

31. Atheism is a positive belief, in truth, that there is no imaginary

friend in the sky, or elsewhere who will keep you company forever (particularly after you die).
That is very frightening to many people as they are afraid of dying, and of being alone after they die, so they must create something to imagine, the 75 virgins, or jeezus, or whatever.
The atheist knows that, just like being alone before you were born, you are going to be alone after you die.
And unaware that you are alone, as you will be dead, just as you were unaware you were alone before you were born, as you weren't born yet, and conscious yet.
Scary to anyone who fears death and loneliness. Scary to anyone who doesn't like theyself.
dc

[eilen]

38. I'm not an atheist, nor a Christian

I really don't care what other people choose to hang their metaphysical hat on (or not). I'd be just as annoyed by the atheist as the jacked-up end is near guy on the street corner. I don't even like to answer surveys in the mall. People are rude to them too.

As far as those "christians" that were treating your friend so disrespectfully, they are repulsive and deserve lots more rebound harassment than anyone else as they push a cult on people, I'd say much worse than scientology cult as they demand 10% of all earnings, their members paying with nary a complaint then protest paying taxes.

[FlyingSquirrel]

104. How do you know you were alone before you were born?

:crazy: Just wonderin. I can't remember my first day... I take it on faith that I wasn't alone. :-) I don't know about after I die. Not that concerned about it to tell ya the truth. Not a big believer in heaven or hell. I am, however, just barely smart enough to realize I don't know more than about one grain of sand on the beach's worth about the universe. (Probably less.) I might say I don't care whether or not there's some kind of friendly or loving supernatural intelligence who cares about me, but I won't say it doesn't exist. These keys under my fingers are supposedly made up of a zillion little atoms whizzing around at incredible speeds in very precise ways. I take that on faith although I can't understand it or see it, just because a bunch of real smart guys have agreed that it's true. There are plenty of very intelligent (even brilliant) people of faith as well, but somehow they can be easily dismissed with a wave of the hand by the same people who believe in science.

P.S. A lot of DU'ers who adamantly refuse to have faith in anything besides man, for some reason find it quite easy to have faith in a system of government which has existed for barely more than 200 years and is clearly unraveling before our very eyes right now.

[proteus_lives]

34. Atheists don't bother me.

I don't care for organized religion but it doesn't bother me either.

"why it's good to be an atheist". Really, what does he expect? He has every right to practice his belief and attempt to recruit new members but other people have the right to give him shit about it.

It's not nice but it's what happens when people handout pamphlets.

[RandomKoolzip]

40. I don't buy this story.

[Pacifist Patriot]

54. Why not?

Sounds exactly like what happens to the local atheist Freethought Society here when they table at the monthly Friday Fest downtown.

[KittyWampus]

69. #1. Low count poster starts thread and then leaves. #2. An athiest handing out pamphlets on street?

[Pacifist Patriot]

95. Yes. Like I said, I know of two instances in which this is done.

American Humanist Association in Washington, DC and my local Freethought Society at a community Friday Fest once a month. Really not unheard of.

[druidity33]

98. I've seen it too. NT

[CJCRANE]

99. I agree with you. Just look at the title, that's a RW frame.

The poster is basically saying "atheists have a negative opinion of Christians and I agree with them". Posting it here on DU just links liberals to that meme.

[Pacifist Patriot]

110. Interesting. That's not how interpreted it at all.

I thought the person was basically saying, "I get it. Atheists really are mistreated by believers. I thought they were making that shit up. Now that I've seen it for myself, I believe them."

[CJCRANE]

42. Nice little parable. Not sure I agree with your presumption about "the Atheists" nt

[usregimechange]

57. “Discrimination against nonbelievers is the last civil rights struggle in which blatant ..."

"...discrimination is viewed as acceptable behavior.”

~Herb Silverman

[dorkulon]

62. "I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens nor should they be considered patriots"

~George H.W. Bush

[Liquorice]

70. Why would he so hard to convince others to be atheists? That's just weird. nt

[MajorChode]

92. No more so than Christians who try to convince others to become Christians

But two wrongs don't make a right.

[Pacifist Patriot]

97. It's less about convincing others to be atheists as it is being a public presence...

for those who feel they are alone. Atheists are not well organized, gee wonder why, so many people disaffected from religion don't realize their doubts are shared by others. Public dissemination of atheist literature lets non-believers know there are others like them.

[PassingFair]

123. Thank you for your understanding on this issue, PP...

I was shocked to learn, when I was
WELL into my twenties, that ALL of
my relatives in Scotland and England
were atheists....JUST LIKE ME!

Guess it ran in the family, but
no one ever mentioned it.

It is still shocking to hear someone
expose themselves as Freethinkers in
public, and I am always heartened when
they do.

Barely two centuries have past from the
point where such utterances could have been met
with a swift, painful death.

:hi:

[TexasObserver]

71. No one will kill you faster than someone whose god you don't follow.

[madmom]

74. I can't believe there are people who are defending this guy, when I posted an

op about being offended by "christians" coming to my door and disturbing my peace,I was told to be polite, buck up and "a simple no thank you would suffice" and so on. Why couldn't the same thing be said of these "christians"? After all this guy didn't come to their door. They could have, more easily than I, ignored him. More double standards than one can shake a stick at around here.

[Pacifist Patriot]

111. I'm going to guess another double standard exists.

If this person had been distributing literature to highlight the case of Don Siegelman, develop clean renewable energy, pull out of Iraq and had been roundly abused by someone who disagreed with him, I'd be willing to bet there would be more sympathy and outrage than there is for someone supposedly dumb and obnoxious enough to distribute atheist literature.

I'm with you. It's a lot harder to ignore a knock on your door than it is to pass by someone on the sidewalk.

[BlooInBloo]

77. (shrug) It's the christian way. It really is.

[and-justice-for-all]

80. I have never done that when handed a religious flier...

Back in 97 I was at a Marilyn Manson show (The Anti-Christ Superstar Tour, which was INSANE! loved it); There were people praying in a circle and some handing out fliers as people proceeded inside, instead of being a prick about as the guy handed me and my friend the flier I just said no thank you. When I did, I also looked right at him...

People with invisible friends and who adhere to bronze age desert dogmas think they are superior to those who do not. The majority are bigoted, hateful, self-righteous, self-serving, inconsiderate, mean spirited, judgmental and believe the world revolves around them and their invisible friends.

I can only be nice for so long and if it was me...when that husband came back to get into my face and after I have explained to him what Atheism is; and yet he still continued to badger me, its on. I have had to do this with a fundi at work, he just would not listen and continued to be a prick. So I said fuck this and let him have it.

I consider myself to be tolerant, the only time a punch back is when they just will not shut the fuck up.

[spoony]

82. LOL

"I consider myself to be tolerant"

And you had the audacity to post that with a straight face after saying:
"People with invisible friends and who adhere to bronze age desert dogmas think they are superior to those who do not. The majority are bigoted, hateful, self-righteous, self-serving, inconsiderate, mean spirited, judgmental and believe the world revolves around them and their invisible friends."

You seriously need a better self-awareness.

[elmaji]

86. You CAN be tolerant without agreeing with someone

and all the while being aware of their bad beliefs.

[spoony]

90. Oh thank goodness you've joined DU

we don't have nearly enough of your sort already. And of COURSE there's nothing intolerant about calling the "majority" of a huge group all sorts of names! :eyes:

[and-justice-for-all]

119. Your a riot...

I go around badgering people with that, unlike those with invisible friends; which is exactly what it is.

Do I say that to them? do I had them fliers saying that? So I knock on their doors or try to take away their right to go to church? NO!

and I stand by my statement: "People with invisible friends and who adhere to bronze age desert dogmas think they are superior to those who do not. The majority are bigoted, hateful, self-righteous, self-serving, inconsiderate, mean spirited, judgmental and believe the world revolves around them and their invisible friends."

[sarcasmo]

88. Some peoples whole Identity is tied up in their belief of the higher power.

My mother in law is one of these people.

[NMMNG]

93. Thanks for sharing

It's always nice when somebody actually gets it.

[DeSwiss]

100. Fer da lub of Jeebus......

- K&R!!!

[Why Syzygy]

102. Good for them!

No matter what their motivation, good for them.
Some might say, Karma kicks! :kick:

[struggle4progress]

106. Anyone leafletting on the street gets such reactions: people who avoid one, people who

attempt to destroy one's literature, people who fly into rages ... it's all par-for-the course

[rug]

113. Is there any historic proof this event actually occurred?

[D23MIURG23]

116. Of course they were acting like christians.

They were acting the way christians actually act rather than the way christians say christians act.

[SecularMotion]

117. Fail

The OP creates a fake scenario in a poor attempt to equate christians proselytizing with atheists offering educational literature on their organizations.

If the OP is not too cowardly to join the discussion, please tell us what atheists offer that is as offensive as the threat of eternal damnation from christians.

[K8-EEE]

118. But they WERE acting like Christians

It kind of annoys me when the Christians take the easy way out by just declaring any molesting priest, "God Hates Fags" moron or screeching "REPENT REPENT!!" guy in front of the ball game as "not true Christians." They have this thing were Christian = Good, no matter how many exceptions to that rule they experience in real life!

Haven't we ALL met Christians like these? So how are they not "real?" I'd say they were typical (I acknowledge not all of them are like that -- but a LOT of them are!)

I used to be a Roman Catholic but man I'm so done with religion these days and especially the ones with their mean "father" gods.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

120. That's the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Christians are self identifying. So that makes Hitler a Christian too.

[TCJ70]

122. That kind of stuff happens to anyone...

...pushing anything on the street. It's not limited to personal beliefs. It could be the fireman in the street raising money, or the people from a local childrens charity doing the same. I've been part of fundraisers and things like that and it's happened to me.

[Taitertots]

124. Who is surprised

It is obvious that some christians need to argue and be belligerent with atheists. What else are they going to do? They have nothing but a 1700 year old book written by people who lived hundreds of years after the alleged messiah was born. They can't possibly expect to engage in a rational discussion when their whole belief system is based on irrationality.

[RagAss]

125. Ask those "christians" what they are and they couldn't tell you. But they can sure

go on and on about who God is and exactly what he demands !

If it wasn't so sad, I'd laugh at them.