What if God exists? And what if that god is evil?

[Dark]

I mean, it makes more sense (frighteningly) than the whole "god is good" thing. It's the simplest answer to the major queries (Why are we here? Why do good things happen to good people? What originally created the big bang?).

What if God is evil?

[spoony]

1. It's called maltheism, it's lame and it belongs in R/T n/t

[Dark]

I think it's an important question, considering all the atheist/theist debates occurring

nt

[spoony]

7. Yes and those debates have a specific forum here. n/t

[Dark]

38. I think this is appropriate for the GD. It discusses a major issue, not a specific element

of theism/atheism.

I'm asking if God isn't whom we think it is. That isn't big enough for the GD?

[napoleon_in_rags]

72. Great question, I love it. So many of the atheists here argue against God...

...Based on some definition of God they have, arguments like "How can a God exist and let a this evil thing happen" but these arguments completely skip over the case of God existing but NOT conforming to any of these, definitions, which is a vast area of possibilities. For instance I saw some movie at a planetarium as a kid that depicted God as a super computer built in the future in hyperspace trying to reverse entropy, and finally coming up with the answer after all life had died, creating the big bang all over in an infinite cycle. It was a reminder that we ingore the vast number of possibilities.

[Fumesucker]

86. That would be Asimov's "The Last Question"

You can read it online..

http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

[omega minimo]

58. Nah this is more of a Lounge thread.............

[ChadwickHenryWard]

98. It's only equally as lame as the idea that God is good.

What's more, it fits the evidence better.

[Common Sense Party]

2. If God were evil, he wouldn't have created Salma Hayek.

[Dark]

3. But then why did he create Rush Limbaugh.?

[omega minimo]

5. Global Warming

[ControlledDemolition]

63. Agreed, Rush is a methane gusher! Flatulence is a major Oxycontin side effect!!! n/t

[ControlledDemolition]

64. Was he anywhere near Bldng#7 on 911? n/t

[Common Sense Party]

10. for comic relief

[The Traveler]

12. You speak truth

Absolutely truth. Amen!

[Dark]

16. But what about the gay population? lol

Seriously, tho, this theory illustrates a much simpler understanding of god/goddess than others.

[omega minimo]

19. their god dresses better

[Dark]

32. Lol. Yes, but for some reason he can't squash the spider he created. n't

[mitchum]

26. But he only created one Salma Hayek...seems pretty evil to me

[Dark]

42. And one Leonardo Di'Caprio

[Greyhound]

41. How do you suppose that your masturbatory fantasies are indicative

of the inherent motivation on the part of a supreme being?

[LooseWilly]

59. Didn't god create masturbation?...

[ForrestGump]

85. Hugh Hefner did.

So I've heard.

[ControlledDemolition]

67. You are assuming there is only one God. The Old Testament referred to Gods!!! n/t

[Dogtown]

96. Baking a dozen cookies for 13 kids...

if God is indeed good, where the fuck is *my* Selma Hayak?

[omega minimo]

4. What's got you worried tonight?

[Dark]

6. Nothing. It's just Occam's Razor. This is the simplest explanation.

nt

[omega minimo]

13. Why do you think god is a person?

[Dark]

33. I'm not talking people here.

Sorry if I intimated that.

I'm saying what if God wasn't perfect, and was evil?

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. I'll give you the answer that you may not like

God is not evil, or good for that matter. God gave humans free will. You choose.

And this is coming from somebody who is very agnostic, but late night discussions with very religious, and chiefly knowledgeable people, from multiple faiths... revelatory or otherwise, lead to that conclusion.

Evil in the world is free choice and so is good.

[Dark]

49. So God is neutral. Are you a deitist?

What if the evil of the world amuses God?

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. I simply don't believe there is a god

evil and good are our choice

I lost my religion between the kid that had her skull caved in by dad in a horrible accident, and an eleven year old stabbed I lost count by entry wound 16 by his older brother.

Not to mention family history

But the idea that God is neutral came from very bright and intelligent Jesuit, Buddhist and Jewish members of the clergy at different times

I used to have some strange discussions at late hours of the night. And the idea that God is not a beneficent being that intervenes in human history is actually Catholic doctrine, or at least Jesuit... doctrine. Not that this comes down to the level of the average parishioner, and to that I say... too bad, but as he actually put it... most people could not handle it. I mean that requires YOU to take sides and be good or evil.

Now what both him and his Jewish counterpart said is that at death your actions will have consequences... for Jews it is just being far from god or close to god, there is no hell. Christian doctrine has a hell, which is fairly recent in the scheme of things, 8th century or so. and Buddhists, well, resurrection could get interesting if you were evil... hence kharma.

The scary part is how similar at the core all these things are.

[The Traveler]

9. What if God cares only for the very long term

For example, perhaps evolution is his game, his art, and while he cares about the stages and the outcome the individuals who represent the micro-steps in the sequence typically just don't attract His divine attention. Perhaps the ineffable bastard isn't even going to look in for 100,000 years ...

("Dude, I have this "intelligence climbing out of the primordial" ooze riff running on a hundred billion worlds now. I got a lot on my plate. Well, on my cosmic petri dish, if ya get my drift. So ... what's yer problem? Why should I care? Your little life will be done and your corpse worm food before I can even register you have a problem. So quit nagging me with your prayers. Live your life. Enjoy the spectacle. Nothin' but love for ya but piss off.)

[omega minimo]

15. What if everything is happening at once?

[LooseWilly]

48. Or at twice?

As long as we're getting metaphysical...

[ContinentalOp]

75. Hey, I actually agree with you for once!

I think that's the most likely explanation. If time and space are relative, then if we were able to step completely outside of the universe we could view the whole of time and space as a single "organism." Call it/us "god" if you like. Unity, infinity, etc.

[knowbody0]

11. We were taught

that God was all good and that he created all things. my mind exploded on that and I was ostracized for asking if He was indeed all good why did he create evil.

that was the day I lost my religion.

[pitohui]

14. the great debate of the middle ages

how many people burned because they decided to believe their own lying eyes instead of the good book

yes, if there is a "god" in the christian sense, of course he is evil -- an all-powerful person who decided to do this...there is no excuse

any intelligent person knows this

the answer is that "god" is not automatically perfect/all-knowing just because he created you -- is your dad perfect and all knowing? creating something don't make you perfect or every artist would be a great human being instead of a bipolar shithead

what if god is evil? he probably is, or at the bare minimum god has issues

you deal with it like you deal w. everybody else in your life who's a bipolar fuckwit testing you with bullshit

you're an adult, you can handle it -- just accept that god has issues and move on

[omega minimo]

17. today the good book

is "science" and "rationality"

[LooseWilly]

22. Hey, I'm an artist, and I'm *not bipolar*... (n/t)

[Dark]

24. Sadly, it's the most logical assumption.

For athiests, how did something come from nothing?

For theists, how does a loving god know everything you're going to do but at the same time give you free choice to do what you want to?

Why do evil things happen to good people?

Each answer is difficult for both groups. But, an evil god would explain both.

[ContinentalOp]

77. God doesn't explain anything.

Who created God? The concept of God is a non-answer that just puts you back at square one.

[LooseWilly]

18. Gnosticism.

There was an early Christian sect, the gnostics... some of whom believed that the God of the Bible was in fact evil and who believed that the "serpent" of Genesis was actually trying to help humans... in the same way that Prometheus, in Greek Mythology, brought man knowledge, and then was punished with eternal torture by the gods... the gnostics suggested that the serpent brought knowledge to mankind... and was punished for it.

Gnosticism

When I stumbled across this sects beliefs, it suddenly made the differences between the Old Testament God, and Jesus make sense. In as much as I believe in Christianity... this is the version that I believe in.

Satan Satan Satan

[omega minimo]

20. God bless you

[LooseWilly]

25. No.

I refuse the blessings of that asshat. I abjure "him" and all his bullshit...

Jesus is just alright, Jesus is ok...

[omega minimo]

57. Gesundheit, then

[LooseWilly]

73. Hehe... that I can live with.

Though I prefer Salud.

[omega minimo]

74. Na Zdroviah!!

[LooseWilly]

81. la khayam..

[Dark]

28. It's Occam's Razor.

Which is more credible:

That something appeared, without divine intervention, and created the primordial big bang? A perfect being then left us to our own devices, saying "Screw the good people, let everyone fend for themselves."

That soemone intervened, created the world, constantly intervened to further its plan, and then gave up, giving everyone free will?

Or that something gave us free will, gave us hope, joy, love and humore just so it could snatch it away from us?

[LooseWilly]

37. Well, Occam's Razor would conclude that there is no god.

As there is no logical need for a god (what with evolution as a solution).

The Gnostics were a Christian sect from around the 1st Century (it is assumed... I think that's debated) who had a completely different interpretation of Jesus' teachings, in relation to the Old Testament, than did St. Paul who, if my spotty Christian history serves me, was the one who dreamed up the idea of converting Gentiles to his version of the new Christian religion as a means of undermining Roman power in the region (St. Paul was essentially an Israeli terrorist/freedom fighter trying to fight Roman oppression, as I have heard it).

[Dark]

50. No, athiesm has yet to explain how the universe came into being.

How did something come from nothing?

[LooseWilly]

68. There's no need to presume there was "nothing" before a big bang.

There was, presumably, just as much "stuff"... and, for whatever reason... by whatever means... it all collected into one super dense somethingorother... and "bammo".... our current universe.

Or, maybe there was another universe... and a black hole... and the black hole was happily eating the universe... until one day, when the universe ate one wafer thin mint of universe too much... and bammo Big Bang!!

[Fumesucker]

89. And theism has yet to explain where God came from..

That's the entire problem with having a creator, if you postulate the need for a creator then the creator will also need a creator and so on and so on.

[ZombieHorde]

102. Athiesm is just a lack of belief in gods. Athiesm has nothing to do with how the universe came into

being or any other science. A person can reject all science and believe in magic while still being an atheist.

[Echo In Light]

94. I lean toward Gnosticism myself

The Gnostic World View:
A Brief Summary of Gnosticism

http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

[LostInAnomie]

21. It's more likely that there isn't a God...

... or if there is one more than likely it doesn't care.

[LSdemocrat]

23. You are assuming that God primarily cares about this life when rewarding good and punishing evil

To a certain extent in Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, and other religions that believe in some form of an afterlife and/or reincarnation, it is arguable that this life is merely a test to see what your afterlife/next life will be.

[LooseWilly]

31. There is actually a sect of Hinduism that believes that ... all the world's a play.

Ironically. And, if I recall what I heard correctly, you are judged by the gods by how well/entertainingly you play your part in the world. Like an actor.

I can't recall the name of the Yoga... but if someone knows, please tell me... I lost the notes from that class and have never been able to find the name of that Yoga (and the Shakespeare Yoga doesn't sound very authoritatively Hindu).

[Oregone]

27. define evil

All that God does, adheres to his will. All that God wills is "good". God cannot be evil, but it follows that goodness is arbitrary and meaningless

[Dark]

30. Why can't God be evil?

What prevents this?

[Oregone]

40. What is evil?

Good and evil aren't infinite standards of morality that God adheres to (this undermines omnipotence). Good is defined relative to God, by that which he wills (and vice versa for evil). How can God do that which is against his will? He cannot, therefore all that God does is within his wishes (because he does it), and hence, "Good" by tautology

[Dark]

45. True. Evil is hard to quantify.

Let's just, for simplicity's sake, keep it at the opposite of what we believe the ideal God is supposed to be.

[Oregone]

52. Its probably easier to pose the question: Is God not omnibenevolent to humans (or rather malevolent)

Good and evil talk creates clusterfucks in logic, based on their definition.

The question essentially challenges the omnibenevolent nature of a theistic being.

[LooseWilly]

76. Ahh, and here you stumble upon Gnosticism.

If you start with the god of the Old Testament... and define him as good... then his opposite, evil, would be Jesus... and thus the notion of linking Jesus to the Serpent of Genesis starts to make sense... and at this point you reach Gnosticism... and the decision of whether you believe in the "good" of the Old Testament god, or the "evil" of the serpent and Jesus...

It's not Occam's Razor, it's internal consistency.

[LooseWilly]

39. So Satan adheres to God's will?

[Oregone]

43. satan adheres to satans will

And that is within god's wishes or it would be otherwise

[LooseWilly]

56. Hehe... good answer.

I like internal consistency.

It does suggest a certain schizophrenia on god's part though, to will into existence a power with no other aim than to trip him up and "steal away souls"...

Unless you like the hypothesis that Satan is a test for man's free will. Which suggests that god likes to test and taunt his creations with another creation... like we're all rats to Satan's cat, toying with us. And god is Elmer Fudd, watching Tom and Jerry do their thing.

Not to say that I can't accept that theory as being at least coherent. I just find it so terribly boring to contemplate. And if there's one thing I can't countenance in a god, it's a boring demeanor...

[Oregone]

62. LOL

"And if there's one thing I can't countenance in a god, it's a boring demeanor"

[LooseWilly]

69. hehe... wasn't it Nietzsche that said he had no use for a god that didn't dance?...

[cherokeeprogressive]

29. Now when I talked to God I knew He'd understand

He said stick by me and I'll be your guidin' hand
But don't ask Me what I think of YOU
I might not give the answer
that you want me to...

[Dark]

36. You need a personal Jesus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQcNiD0Z3MU

[cherokeeprogressive]

44. Nah. I just need some good weed, my honey, and my dog.

Well, some good weed, my honey, my dog, and my Harley. Okay, some good weed, my honey, my dog, my Harley, and a nice cool breezy day. Wait... some good weed, my honey, my dog, my Harley, a nice cool breezy day, and my daughter's smile. Damn. Some good weed, my honey, my dog, my Harley, a nice cool breezy day, my daughter's smile, and an Double-Double from In & Out.

Yup. That's all I need.

[Dark]

47. I would love some good weed.

Sadly, I have a drug test...

Fmylife.

[cherokeeprogressive]

54. Ouch. No more of those for me.

Just loosely packed bowls of OG Kush from my clean glass bong.

Good luck on your test. I hope you studied.

[LooseWilly]

46. No, what you need is:

A Chocolate Jesus!!

[cherokeeprogressive]

51. Immaculate Confection LOLOL n/t

[LooseWilly]

70. Bwahaha...

I'm glad I didn't have any whiskey in my gob when I read that!!

[juno jones]

34. The same 'evil god' concept is already in Gnosticism.

This world is ruled by a blind, evil, vain, mad god named Yaldoboath aka 'Jehovah'.

There is a real God who creted the place, but he's so abstract and distant that he doesn't get involved.

It'd more complicated, of course, but that's the main gist.

[Dark]

53. Deism? I'm familiar with it.

I am technically a deist. But I have to wonder...

Why is there suffering in the world?

An evil god explains this much better than a good god. So does a neutral one...

But why would a neutral god create a world? Why, if he intends to take no part in it? Would you join a game of Civilization and just watch?

An evil God, otoh, would enjoy giving people just enough hope to succeed his trials, so that he may ruin their lives again.

[1]

35. no. God is cool. he just doesn't like you very much...

[Dark]

61. Actually, I've been rather lucky. But why do you think he's cool, and not

someone that revels in suffering. After all, if God was cool, he wouldn't allow pain or torture, right?

[1]

79. i'm glad for your luck. i've been lucky too. the God i know is cool...

[Lucian]

60. What if God was one of us?

Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home

[Dark]

65. Well, God was trapped in after Skeeball in Dogma.

It gets the best of us.

[LooseWilly]

83. There ain't no devil...

There's just god when he's drunk...

[alcibiades_mystery]

66. Profundity FAIL

[Dark]

71. Why? Explain to me why a good God is more realistic than a bad One.

nt

[varkam]

80. Well an evil god would certainly make more sense than the traditional JC one. eom

[NJCher]

78. the phrasing of your argument

I really don't think you can argue this ("God is evil"). There's something wrong with your constructs but it's late and I'm not up for engaging my brain in finer points.

I think what you have to say is along the lines of "God is not omnipotent nor is he omniscient." I think you can say "God--or what we think of as 'good'--is losing."

What you're doing with your "God is evil" argument is changing the terms and that's not going to get anybody anywhere.

Now, on another topic, it sounds like you need some brain matter to play with so I am going to recommend something for you. This man's argument is not new but it is couched in modern terminology which makes it fun. It is, if I interpret you correctly, in the vein in which you are thinking. So check out Jim Elvidge:

http://www.theuniversesolved.com /


Cher

[Old Hob]

82. then that would mean we should be serving........

satan?

[asteroid2003QQ47]

84. It's the need for the illusion of a God that is fucked up! eom

[armyowalgreens]

87. I believe then that the argument would be that God could not be evil...

Because to exist is better than not existing. So by creating things, God is inherently not evil.

I would be willing to argue that God is not good. Horrible things happen all the time which would mean that God is in fact not good. But that could simply be because God does not care. Or it could be because god is flawed. Either way, I am not willing to worship that God.

[armyowalgreens]

92. Ignore my counter argument. I was wrong.

[Echo In Light]

88. No light w/o dark. No pos energy w/o neg energy. No good w/o evil

We encompass it all.

[armyowalgreens]

90. Wow I just got absolutely mind fucked by a philosophical epiphany...

I'll get back to you when I can put it down on paper.

[AllentownJake]

91. If there is an all power being that created heavan and earth

I highly doubt he's that concerned with what is happening on this small rock in his vast creation. Also our ability to judge said Deity would be limited to our experience on this one rock that he is not that concerned with.

[JI7]

93. the God that many people believe in seems Evil to me

and i always say that if that God does exist i wouldn't worhsip it .

[Echo In Light]

95. There's a great quote from George Bernard Shaw re god

Something along the lines of suggesting it's a horrible idea since it involves the belief that god intentionally created something less than him/her/itself - humans - when god could have just as easily created something equal.

[Javaman]

97. once you understand that man created god. the rest is easy. And it will answer your question. nt

[MikeH]

99. There are a sizable number of people who actually do believe in an evil God

Yes, I am talking about the Fundamentalist Christians. Even though they would deny it, they believe in an evil God.

They believe in a God who sends people to hell for all eternity if they happen to miss out on "accepting Christ" in this lifetime, for whatever reason, or if they happen to guess wrong by adhering to a religion other than Christianity.

And I think they would believe that an "unsaved" murder victim is condemned to hell, while if the murderer later "repents" and "accepts Christ", the murderer is let into heaven.

Of course the fundamentalist Christians deny that their God is evil, just like "good Germans" denied that Hitler and the Nazis were doing anything evil, or like some people today (including many fundamentalist Christians) still think that Bush/Cheney are good people, and that torture is something good and necessary.

[Jeffersonian Dem]

100. It's not God, but false ideas of God that are evil

The main problem in the world today is people who claim to know God but are actually power-hungry bigots and hypocrites who want to rule under false pretenses in the name of religion and patriotism. And they CLAIM to be Christians or Jews or Muslims.

The problem is not God or religion, but the distortion of religion to suit the purposes of greedy, self-important, self-righteous fools.

[peace_to_world]

101. you are someone without faith/belief

God is not evil.You could never test God for His qualities.Allah has created everything and man too. Allah tests man for his qualities.

[The River]

103. Reality is Impersonal

Shit happens, things evolve.
More shit happens, it too evolves.
After 14 billion years we've gone from:
nothing to
simple matter to
complex matter to
living matter to
conscious matter to
what?
Do you detect a pattern here?

[IndianaGreen]

104. What if GAWD didn't give a FRAK?

The GAWD that was silent and AWOL during the Holocaust is a deity deserving of our scorn, not our worship.

Where was GAWD during the Holocaust?

[struggle4progress]

105. If you recognize a difference between what is good and what is evil, then why not choose

to serve what is good?