Okla. school system adopts religious liberty protection policy

[The Straight Story]

Okla. school system adopts religious liberty protection policy
May 10, 2005
By Bob Nigh

MUSTANG, Okla. (BP)--Five months to the day after a nativity scene was disallowed in a fifth grade holiday program at an Oklahoma elementary school, the school system's board of directors unanimously approved a religious liberty policy May 9 that declares “the proper role of religion in the public school curriculum is academic and not devotional.”

Approval of the policy by the Mustang Public Schools board of directors was hailed by the central figure in the controversy which rocked this suburb of Oklahoma City as “wonderful.” Superintendent Karl Springer banned a nativity scene from Lakehoma Elementary School's annual holiday play Dec. 9, basing his decision on a legal opinion issued by the school system’s legal counsel, who cited separation of church and state arguments.

“I think this document is wonderful,” Springer told a small crowd which gathered for the board meeting. “If we had had this policy in place, we would not have had any issue come up in December. It provides us with an opportunity to be able to teach about religion, and that makes all the difference.”

Dave Bryan, pastor of Chisholm Heights Baptist Church, co-chaired the 30-member task force. He made the formal presentation of the eight-page document to the board.

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=20759

[Inland]

1. As a principle it makes sense.

But will an Oklahoma school district apply it?

[CBGLuthier]

2. Well

An Oklahoma school district approved and was involved in the creation of the policy.

So why wouldn't they apply it?

Just an FYI for all who don't know, Mustang is just outside of Oklahoma City. It is not some backwards, middle of the nowhere town as some imagine the whole state to be.

[Inland]

6. Just saying that what happens on the ground could differ.

Like I said, the policy sound good. In fact, it sounds like something I would have written, from the article. But it's a tricky concept to apply, and could be abused in fact or interpreted differently.

Didn't mean any slam against OK. Not THIS time, anyway.

[The Straight Story]

3. One would hope so, but I think maybe there are some deeper issues here

I feel the backlash on the whole seperation of church/state and schools is felt at a community level where people who pay the taxes want a say in things and don't like ol uncle sam interfering. Your town is 99% christian and you want to celebrate christmas at school with some stuff, well why shouldn't you type of thing.

I recall in elementary school we had one jewish kid in class, rest were christian. He took off time for hannukah and we all did things which related to hannukah as a class. He saw how we celebrated and we how he did. He had things he put up, as did the rest of us. We let it all come together and learned something in the process.

Funny thing is, I remember more of the jewish things we did then the christmas things. We all had fun.

[Inland]

5. That sounds good to me.

Anything that's important to a lot of people deserves class time, simply because they aren't hermetically sealed and learning things includes your own culture with it's subcultures and minorities and majorities.

Some will be resentful that their holidays aren't taught to be anything more than "here's a day that some people think is signifcant". After all, the Super Bowl fits THAT description. But it isn't the school's role to announce which days are transcendentally more valuable. Just the ones that are more interesting and important and instructive.

Except when they fall on Mondays or Fridays, in which case they send the kids home and teach them nada. Go figure.

[Warpy]

4. HOW will an Oklahoma school district apply it?

That's the real question. I can see it used to put the Nativity scene back into the classrooms, but no teaching being done beyond reading the bible story to the kids with no discussion of other religious holidays and customs, EVER.

I know what these people are, and they are not tolerant.

However, in principle, it's a pretty good document.

[Inland]

7. That's what I meant. HOW apply it.

Still, its a good document. Nothing new about verification, and since I already said I didn't mean to slam OK, any school district that enacted this policy should be sensitive to the nuances of how it is being or not being followed.

[trotsky]

8. This is the same tactic they use to post the 10 Commandments.

"It's part of our national heritage."

A trick, plain and simple. A way to skirt around the Constitutional principle of separation of church and state.

[onager]

9. Absolutely!

This is NOT exactly a new tactic. "Presenting religion as an academic subject" usually means presenting the majority Xian religion and nothing else. Unless a Jew, atheist or member of some Off-Brand Religion slaps a big lawsuit on their ass.

Go to the ACLU site and read about what happened to the Oklahoma woman who belonged to the Nazarenes--a Fundamentalist sect. She objected to prayers being read over the loudspeaker at the public school. The ACLU defended her, to her surprise, since she said that she always thought the ACLU "only defended Communists and people like that."

Her good Xian neighbors burned her house down.

Oddly enough, though, my mother works at a pre-school attached to a Baptist church. They had a student who belonged to some Fundie sect or other, and her mother laid down the law: she didn't want her kid coming home with Xmas gifts or Easter eggs. Or talking about Santa. This particular sect didn't celebrate those holidays, at least not in the usual style.

The church/school went along with it, at least as long as that kid was in the class.

BTW, that kid also informed the rest of the class that Santa Claus didn't exist. Just imagine dealing with a roomful of 4 and 5-year-olds trying to process THAT information! Mom said they were all in tears, and she had to dodge around it. She used the "Santa believes in those who believe in him" bit.

Too bad the little Fundie girl couldn't apply her Santa logic to A Few Other Mythical Characters...;-)

[beam me up scottie]

11. Yes, only good things happen when angry

christians get together, hijacking the school bond issues is just one example.

" The night of the program, a small group of protesters stood across the street from the school. Some held signs declaring, “No Christ. No Christmas. Know Christ. Know Christmas.”

Angry citizens organized a drive to defeat two bond issues five days later on Dec. 14. "

[MountainLaurel]

13. Only to Christianity

Meanwhile, if a teacher discusses ancient harvest festivals in the context of a social studies lesson, she's out on her ass for promoting witchcraft.

[beam me up scottie]

10. THAT is what they're calling it now?

"religious liberty protection policy"
Bullshit.

#####
Bryan said he is very pleased with the final document.

“I think this is going to be great because our citizens will see we’re protecting the rights of all segments of our community,” he said. “For people of faith, it’s going to be a wonderful opportunity because we finally see our schools moving to where we’re not excluding religion from the schools, but now it’s being embraced on a neutral level.

“I think our schools have been promoting secularism as the religion of choice of our nation, that no religion is preferable, and I’ve always felt like there’s got to be something else better. This is a really neat opportunity to see that our schools are going to be sharing about religion and, of course, parents, students and everyone will be able to find the correctness of that in the proper setting."
######

I'll bet he's pleased, what baptist pastor wouldn't be?

“the proper role of religion in the public school curriculum is academic and not devotional.”

This is a public school, they should not be teaching religion at all and Puh-lease, do you really believe that they are talking about non-christian religions?

“Haynes explained the difference between teaching about religion and teaching religion in the public schools,” Bryan said. “He really laid out the principle that as long as it is academic, there is nothing wrong, and everything right, about teaching religion in schools."

Here's more on Haynes from:
http://www.firstamendmentschools.org/news/article.aspx?id=15190&SearchString=religion#link0:

#####
First Amendment Center Scholar, Charles Haynes, comments on the struggle to teach about religion and its role in our history and culture without proselytizing. Below is his response to the Bible Literacy Project’s recent report.

snip

According to a study out this week, most students in public schools don’t know much about the Bible – and many teachers are hesitant to teach it.

True, most students polled could identify Moses correctly (72%) and knew about Adam and Eve (90%). But when probed for a more substantive knowledge of the Bible, such as David’s actions in the Books of Samuel or what happened at the wedding of Cana as described in the New Testament, a large majority either didn’t know or answered incorrectly.

These findings – from a survey commissioned by the Bible Literacy Project – shouldn’t surprise us. After all, from the “Bible wars” of the 19th century to the lawsuits of the 21st, Americans have a long and bitter history of fighting over the role of the Bible in public education. In our litigious culture, the path of least resistance is just to leave it out.
#####

They used a study done by the Bible Literacy Project, want to know more about the Project?

Chuck Stetson is the Chairman of the Board
Chuck Stetson is also the Vice Chairman of the National Bible Association.

#####
http://www.biblecurriculum.org/Site/News/bibc_news8.htm

Bible Curriculum News
Remarks to the Press by Charles P. Stetson

Chuck Stetson, Vice Chairman, National Bible Association, on the release of the publication of
The Bible & Public Schools: A First Amendment Guide

"We believe that the implications of this second model are as serious as those of the first. Without the Bible, as well as other sacred texts, we believe that it is difficult to teach about morality and about ethics. We cannot even give our students the vocabulary to discuss morality and ethics. The result of such a vacuum should be no surprise. It is a total lack of standards and a form of anarchy and violence, the opposite of tolerance, respect and democracy. And we, as a country, have let this happen. But we have recently had several wake-up calls in our public schools, not the least of which was the recent shootings at Columbine High in Colorado. The images of that sad day have been engrained in all of us."
#####

Read mr. stetson's remarks again.

Now tell me how this involves "religious liberty protection".

Bullshit.

[Zhade]

12. Yes, boys and girls: study the bible, or you'll become a killer.

THAT'S basically what this Stetson guy is saying.

"Without the Bible, as well as other sacred texts, we believe that it is difficult to teach about morality and about ethics."

What a crock of shit - so non-Christians and atheists aren't moral or ethical? Them's fighting words, asshole.

This SOUNDS good on paper - except it doesn't, not really, because then you get into the realm of government choosing which faiths are worth class time, and exclusion naturally follows due to the fact that there isn't enough time in the world to cover every faith.

I wonder, when the first pagan child wants winter solstice examined "academically" in the school, and it doesn't happen, will these people fight for that child's faith to be included? HA! Don't make me laugh.

This is indeed a slippery slope in action, and as others said (and you, BMUS, have illustrated), these people have an agenda. It's not to be inclusive, though they seemingly talk the talk.

This is a Trojan Horse.

[onager]

14. Without the Buy-bull you can't teach ethics?

Baloney. I'd teach the little nippers about the law and morality of ancient, pagan Babylon.

Murderers were burned alive in public. Adulterers were sewn in a bag together and thrown in the river.

The Fundies should love it. OTOH, it might give them ideas...

I often wonder where this nonsense got started that ALL ethics and morality originated with a bunch of nomadic goat-stealers 5000 years ago.

When I hear hokum about "Moses The Law-giver," I have to stop and think that (according to the Biblical fiction) Moses led his people out of Egypt--a nation that had already been thriving for thousands of years before those resentful Israelites showed up.

Wonder how the Egyptians managed to get along without laws, public ethics and morality, and all the other behavioral systems that naturally EVOLVE in human society?

[beam me up scottie]

15. "ALL ethics and morality originated with a bunch of nomadic goat-stealers"

:spray:
Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha

Reminds me of a favorite quote from one of my favorite authors:

“The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.” ~ Arthur C Clarke