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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 09:19 AM
Original message
As if you need another reason to despise Warren -
Edited on Wed Jan-21-09 09:21 AM by pirhana
Tweety told a story this morning about when he once attended a church service led by Warren.

A Jewish woman walked up to Warren and asked if she could be saved.
Warren replied NO!

I am not a very religious person, but my beliefs revolve around the principle that we are all equal in God's eye.
And here we have a so called man of God that believes he and his followers are above the rest.

Someone is going to have to explain to me why so many (not here of course) put Rick Warren on a pedestal, because to me, he is not worthy.
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ejpoeta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. you know what i say to people like that....
i'll see ya there. what ever happened to judge not lest ye be judged? i think there is a special place in hell for people who try to tell folks how to get to heaven.
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onetiredmom Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. An explanation.
A couple of verses to explain why Warren would say a Jewish person will not be saved.

Jesus said, "I am the Road, also the Truth, also the Life. No one gets to the Father apart from me. (John 14:6-9) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16)

If Jewish people don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God, then they cannot access the Father. It's not a matter of judging lest ye be judged, there are specifics listed in the Bible that say, "If you are a Christian and a believer, this is what you will look like (not physically, but in your actions, deeds and words).




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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. The gospel of John was written very late,
and reflects the experience of a church already under persecution. The church by that point realized that Jesus came to put an end to violence in the world, to save the persecuted from the violence of the persecutors. The Johannine church knew that those who knew Jesus' message of non-violence, whether having heard it from Jesus or indirectly through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, were the ones who could stand against the violence of persecution. "Eternal life" in John is both life after death (probably), but also the strength to live without fear of death in this life. The Greek word translated "eternal" means beyond or outside of time. To live eternally is to live without fear of death or anything this side of death.

All who know this eternal life will live beyond the fears of this world. The church had learned this from Jesus, and attributed all those who knew these truths to Jesus' influence.

But nowhere does Jesus say that Jews are going to hell. Rick Warren oversteps his authority in making such a statement. He needs to be careful not to take God's authority onto himself. That is far more offensive to the Creator than being Jewish.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. My problem with his words are more simple than that.
I see them as being divisive. That he was treating that Jewish woman as a second class citizen, that
because she was not born into what Warren believes is the correct faith, that she could not be saved.

I just cannot accept that, nor can I accept that one religion is more superior than another...I believe that inspite of my own faith.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Warren has no right to make such a judgment. He's just a windbag.
Some day he'll learn. Pride goeth before a fall.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. That's the impression I got as well. NT
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. I'm not sure that's true
Baptists (at least the ones I know) believe anyone can be saved. The question (I think) is, can you remain theologically Jewish and be saved? Baptist theology (and frankly nearly all Christian theology) would say no.

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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. It doesn't sound like he's saying the woman cannot be saved ever.
Edited on Wed Jan-21-09 11:53 AM by Occam Bandage
The only Christians who would believe such a thing are in a few predestinationist sects. Rather, it sounds like he's saying that she cannot be saved so long as she is not born again into Christ, which is something of a basic tenant of evangelical Christianity. That's really no different than if a Theravada Buddhist were to tell a Jewish woman that she could not attain nirvana without a lifetime of dedication to austere meditation.

While many people like to claim "all religions are equal," many people also like to believe that the texts and teachings of their religion are entirely true, and most religions like to claim a monopoly on the truth. As they say, don't hate the player, hate the game.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. Agreed. nt
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. The Gospel of John is.....
... the divinly inspired word of God.

But that's probably one of those matters where we'll have to just agree to disagree. ;)

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onetiredmom Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. But Jesus does say...
no one gets to the Father except through me. How can you get to the Father if you don't believe that Jesus is the son of God? And my understanding is that Jews don't believe that.

I know there are Messianic Jews who do believe in the divinity of Jesus, but that is a different story.

If you believe the Bible, then you follow the rules. If you don't believe the Bible, then you are free to make up your own rules.
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foxfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Surely you don't believe that Christianity holds the monopoly on rules.
"If you believe the Bible, then you follow the rules. If you don't believe the Bible, then you are free to make up your own rules."

Other faiths do have rules, just not the ones derived from the Bible, and they were no more or less "made up" than the Biblical rules were. Some religions have karma, or cause and effect, in lieu of "rules."

This discussion is better suited for the religion/theology forum.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. If you are a Christian, you do believe that only Christians can be saved
I mean...that's basic theology at its core.

Now, there are mysteries to God that we don't understand, but I don't really want to get into that.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. I'm a Christian, and I'm a Universalist.
Please don't tell me what I do and don't believe.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Ok...fine...Baptists and most other denominations believe this
Everyone is so bloody specific here.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. When you make wildly broad-brushed statements, expect to be
questioned.

I'm an Episcopalian BTW, and was raised RCC - at no time in my life was I taught to believe that exclusive stuff you claim is shared by all of Christianity.
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foxfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
32. I wasn't commenting on the content of the rules
as much as the existence of "rules" of any kind in the structure of the religion. It was the "make up your own" part that caught my attention. It's a false dichotomy. There are any number of structures and rules in religions other than Christianity, so obviously it's not a matter of believing in the Bible versus having no rules at all. I realize that the poster I responded to apparently does believe that the rules of the Bible are dictated by the God of the Bible. Even so, other-than-Christian religions do have rules that have their own theological backing.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
34. No, no it's not!
Not at all.

I'm a Christian and believe in universal salvation - the only possible outcome of an all-loving God.

We humans just don't like to contemplate the idea that "those people" (insert whoever you dislike) will be with God, too. It's a human failing, and not a reflection on God.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. It doesn't say, "No one goes to the Father except BY BELIEVING IN ME".
That's what you're assuming. That's not what the text says. It's fully possible that the text means no one could fully come to the Father until Jesus came into the world, whether one knew of Jesus or not. That's certainly implied in the first chapter of John.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. Yup. nt
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. Good thing I have absolutely no desire to have a relationship with this "Father"
Or his son or any of the people that have committed horrible acts in their names for centuries.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
33. Believing in the Bible, and reading it literally are most definitely two
different things.

There is a great amount of truth contained within. You start assuming that truth = fact and you run into all sorts of trouble.

Check everything back against the overwhelming message of Jesus' teachings: inclusion, welcome for all... love one another.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. I agree with you in principle....
... but Warren could not have known what was in the woman's heart or what she might CHOOSE to do between now and the judgement. Maybe it would make more sense if we heard their entire exchange ... but NO MAN can say what the ultimate fate of another's soul is. The Bible is clear about that.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
19. Well, that really mostly goes for the conservative literalist churches, though.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. Anyway you look at it, it's still judging the Jewish person.
What did Jesus mean when he said that? (Assuming of course for the purpose of argument that Jesus existed and said that)

Did he mean adopt my philosophy, live according to the principles that I set down, or did he mean that you have to literally believe in the name "Jesus"? That he is God?
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
30. Baloney
Those verses could also be interpreted to mean that Jesus was showing us the way - as in this is the way... Jesus' overwhelming message was one of inclusion.

This idea that some sort of loyalty oath is required for salvation is really the product of Christian fundamentalism (a relatively new development in Christian history) - good grief, even the RCC recognizes the special relationship of the Jews and God! These fundies like to set out clubs to which only a select few can belong. Makes them feel special.

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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
5. The Bible is clear on salavation......
.... our equality exists because we all have the same CHANCE at salvation. The problem is that the implication seemed to be that she COULD not be saved .... when the truth is, she already has been. ;)

Part of TRUE religious tolerance .... one of the most sacred jewels in this nation's coffer .... is the principle that there is room for all beliefs ... even when they're wrong. :)

... ahem .... Pastor Warren.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. I think there needs to be context to that conversation
There could also be a huge theological chasm between Matthews' Catholic understanding of salvation and Warren's Baptist understanding.

Baptists believe that Jesus has done all the work for us and you just need to open your heart to him to be saved. And - at the heart of this - is the idea that you don't even necessarily have to be a "good" person since Baptist reject "works" as a component of salvation. Matthews probably believes that you can earn your way to Heaven.

My church (Disciple of Christ) tends to split the difference on this.
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InAbLuEsTaTe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
8. Warren needs to just go away. My only regret with Obama is his giving this demon seed a platform.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
13. I need some context to that
If the question is, can a Jewish person be saved without accepting Christ as the Messiah, the answer - according to most Christian theology - is a resounding no.

If the question is, can a Jewish person be saved in general, the answer is yes. All can be saved.

I refuse to criticize religious people for believing their religion.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
17. A Christian believes that Christ is the only path to salvation?
Edited on Wed Jan-21-09 11:47 AM by Occam Bandage
Wow. That's absolutely shocking. I mean, it's like he believes in a literal reading of the Bible or something. Why, that would make him an evangelical!
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. I know...Crazy...He believes what he believes
This is really why religion needs to be private. Because we all believe that someone else is wrong.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Yep. We've got it backwards. Health care should be nationalized, and religion should be privatized.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. My grandparents believe every denomination was wrong except ours
And I think they believed that our church was the only one in the denomination that really got it right.

I imagine their vision of heaven was of a very very empty place.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
37. That would make him a fundamentalist
An evangelical spreads the gospel. Evangelicals can actually come in quite liberal and inclusive packages!

Fundamentalists like to congratulate themselves for not interpreting the bible, for reading it strictly as it comes to them. Which is nonsense, since they're reading a translation of a translation of a ... and all of those contained interpretations anyway. Plus, they still tend to read what they want into things - it's really just that they like the exclusive stuff. Anything that secures for them those first class tickets - which are only worthwhile having if the riff-raff is kept out, doncha know.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #37
43. Evangelicalism is not evangelism. You have confused the two.
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
27. I would have to know the entire context of the conversation before I can make a decision.
If she was asking if she can get into Heaven just by following the law of Moses then of course Warren is going to say no because that is what his faith teaches. If she was asking if she can be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and he said no then he needs to stop writing books and start reading his Bible.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
29. It doesn't bother me if he thinks I am not going to be saved
It's like someone telling me that Santa Claus is not showing up and giving me a present this Christmas. But it does bother me if he forces his beliefs down my throat or use his clout to support discrimination against a group of citizens.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. It bothers me.
But I think it's a dreadful perversion of my own faith, so that would explain it.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I do understand why he bothers you
In the same way the equivalent in my own group bother me.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Meh.
He likely believes that your version of Christianity is a perversion of HIS faith, so it all evens out in the end.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Except I'M right, lol! nt
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elshiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
42. I heard that story a month ago or so. It made me very annoyed
indeed about Warren doing the invocation. My dad and his family are all Jewish. That plus the homophobia really made him a terrible choice. On top of that he is an awful preacher and his book sucks as piece of "inspirational" writing.
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