Some of the Founding Fathers views on religion:

[goodboy]

Quotes are arranged in a question/answer format, to highlight common arguments.

Argument one: The phrase 'separation of Church and state' is of recent origin, and the concept was not known or promulgated by the founders.

False. The phrase was first used in Thomas Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for is faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."

James Madison, principal author of the constitution:

"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State." (1819).

much, much more here:

http://altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa070202a.htm

[goodboy]

1. I like this one from Tom Paine:

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish , appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe. It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the profession of a priest for the sake of gain, and in order to qualify himself for that trade he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this?" (Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason)

[Deja Q]

2. Well spoken for being the obvious modus operendi in life as we made of it.

:applause:

[goodboy]

3. uh huh...(nt)

[hootinholler]

9. Speak for yourself sir,

For that is not my modus operandi, it is the apparent modus operandi of the talibornagin. Or perhaps I misunderstand your post and am offended where none is intended.

-Hoot

[goodboy]

14. now I'm confused....hypno toad strikes again...(nt)

[Tux]

18. Got to love it

Paine, Franklin, Washington, and Jefferson were Deists. They were ahead of their time and knew Christianity was about money and power more than about Jesus.

[pnorman]

4. I've been looking for that site.

Thanks.

pnorman

[goodboy]

5. my pleasure...btw...is your name short for "piano man"?

[rodeodance]

7. thanks-who was it that was ranting that the constitution did not say

anything about the separation of church and state. I forget.

[Igel]

12. The Constitution just says Congress shall make no law

respecting an establishment of religion, and applies to Congress. It doesn't necessarily mandate a separation of church and state; individual states still had state religions and sectarian laws that were not deemed to contravene the federal constitution.

Various founders had their views. The language they chose may well reflect no single view. Adams suggested later than an immoral or irreligious people could not survive as a country under the constitution, since it would be inadequate for such a people, and such a people inadequate for it. There is no contradiction between have Adams said and what Jefferson wrote.

I seem to be alone in constantly noting that most people have little problem with the very issue Jefferson was dealing with when he made his "wall of separation" statement: a day of Thanksgiving. He said he could never make such a proclamation because the Congress could never authorize it. This I find to be fairly hypocritical.

[H2O Man]

15. No matter how people

view the Constitution in terms of government's not infringing on religion, we should be very copncerned about the manner in which the right wing is using religion to infringe on people's lives. This includes in education, science, health care, the public commons, etc. The religious right poses a substantial danger to those who are on the religious left of "Christianity," all other religions, and those who are not religious. We should not underestimate the threat they pose based upon their numbers, or the fact they sound crazy to us. They are a real and present danger to our culture.

[Igel]

16. I try to walk a very careful line between saying what I think

a document says, and saying what I think. And I don't like it when people, in my view, misrepresent the state of affairs to match their opinion. Life's never that simple.

I've lived in a society that has never respected or shown much acceptance of 7-th Christianity. I find Thanksgiving and federal holiday on Xmas to be violations of the church/state clause on the face of it. I don't think the blue laws that I grew up with in Maryland are violations of the constitution, and seem to be alone in that, as well. The SOTUS agreed we me, at least at the time, on the latter point; and disagreed with Jefferson and me on the former.

The permitted intrusions of religion I find to be more egregious than the ones that aren't, under the Constitution.

[Tux]

19. But

It prevents a theocracy. Unless that is what you want.

[EVDebs]

6. The Founders were mainly Freemasons. This outgrowth of the KnightsTemplar

who were persecuted by the treachery of Pope Clement V and King Philip IV of France caused them to go into hiding. From their betrayal by the Pope himself, the KT did not forsake their oaths to the Higher Power.

Jacques de Molay, thou art avenged
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1153063

They rightly disassociated themselves with worldly powers, kings and the Catholic Church leadership, and formed an underground society which eventually morphed into the Freemasons of more modern times.

TGAOTU, the Great Architect of the Universe, is the codeword for the "G" in the <G> masonic world for "God".

DUers should look into what Freemasonry is all about and try to find out exactly how many of our Founding Fathers were members of this secret society. Their religious tolerance is in the background of this organization for a very good reason.

[goodboy]

10. I know for a fact that Ben Franklin was...(nt)

[A HERETIC I AM]

17. You might be surprised to find out that many of the European constitutions

and other founding documents share similar language and sentiments to ours. The Masonic Order has been instrumental in the formation of religiously tolerant and liberal democracies the world over Their origins extend all the way back to ancient Egypt also, not just relatively recent history. In the beginning the "Masons" were exactly that, Stone Cutters - Masonry - the organization beginning as essentially a trade union. The skills needed to erect grand buildings out of stone are exceedingly old and were for millenia protected arts that were closely held by members of the trade. This gave them ENORMOUS power as Kings, Emperors, Pharaohs and Popes were forced to go to such men to build the structures those kings desired to satisfy personal ego as well as serve the public good.

[libodem]

8. And thank, God , you said that

I so believe in the separation of church and state. I am very much in favor of, tax the Church mode, right now.

[goodboy]

11. churches should pay taxes. period. Then maybe they'll have more

motivation to actually use their money to help people instead of buying gold thrones and getting plastic surgery...


<>

[goodboy]

13. hey DU R&T morning crew...what do you think?