Who is more likely to be a Christian?

[Boojatta]

Poll question: Who is more likely to be a Christian?

[Az]

1. Whats a Christian?

You leave the definition entirely open.

[cosmik debris]

2. A true Christian

Is one who puts porridge on their sugar.

[Boojatta]

5. Maybe that's a modern definition, but that wouldn't have

made much sense when sugar was produced by slaves.

[cosmik debris]

12. If I had a nickle for every time you laughed at a joke

I'd owe you $1.50

[Boojatta]

36. I generate laughter on DU.

And that's more important than it is for me to be laughing, isn't it? Moreover, in reality, you have no way to estimate how much laughing I do. I think you'd be surprised.

[Boojatta]

3. Well, if there were two very clear concepts of a Christian...

but with important differences between the two concepts, then it would make sense for me to specify which of the two I have in mind.

Similarly if there were three very clear but different concepts of a Christian.

However, if the term is essentially meaningless to you without further explanation, then my advice is that you should neither use the word "Christian" yourself nor bother to respond to any post whose meaning hinges upon the meaning of the word "Christian."

[Az]

6. Well thats the problem of the term Christian

There is only one possible individual that could determine who was a true Christian or not. And as it happens that person disappeared around 2000 years ago (if he ever existed) and has not been doing personal appearances since then. Thus we have no authoritative source to define who is or is not a true Christian.

The upshot of this is of course that the only basis we have to go on is whether someone refers to their self as a Christian or not. Lacking an authority to determine who gets Christianity right or not a person's word is the best we can deal with.

[Boojatta]

7. "The upshot of this is of course that the only basis we have...

to go on is whether someone refers to their self as a Christian or not."

Well, if that's your justification for your preferred way to use the word "Christian", then I see nothing to argue about.

However, why would you scratch your head simply because someone both claims to be a Christian and also spends/spent some time in a foxhole?

As an atheist I am usually offended by the statement "no atheists in foxholes"
But what really makes me scratch my head is what Christians are doing in foxholes or in any situation where they are required to kill other human beings.

[Az]

9. Because I have read the teachings of Jesus

and I have my own opinion of what his teachings represented. And from this I find discrepancies within various individuals behavior and their proclaimed adherence to the teachings of Jesus. Now as I am no authority I cannot refute their claim to be followers of Christ despite their actions to the contrary of what I believe his teachings to represent. Thus I wonder why followers of Jesus are doing in foxholes voluntarily killing people despite the bibles adamant insistence to not kill people.

[Boojatta]

10. May I be so bold as to propose an abbreviation for that?

You wonder why people who aren't Az-Christians claim to be Christians. However, you don't dispute and cannot refute the claim that they are Christians.

[Az]

14. I have no doubts about why they claim to be Christians

Its the disconnect between the teachings I am familiar with and their seeming willingness to overlook them. Whether they are Christians or not is not the result of anything I can determine to any significant degree. Thus I can only accept their claim within the understanding that they may or may not actually be Christians but that they certainly think they are Christians.

I guess that is what it boils down to. We cannot determine who is a Christian or not. We can only determine who thinks they are a Christian.

[Boojatta]

16. "We can only determine who thinks they are a Christian."

It sounds as though you're assuming that if a person claims to be a Christian then the person doesn't lie. And that reminds me of the allegation that everything in the Bible must be true because it says so in the Bible.

[Az]

29. It is possible that someone would lie about being a Christian

I had not considered that. But I hardly think that simplifies the matter. It certainly seems to add an extra degree of complexity to the issue which I considered already tremendously muddled.

[Boojatta]

30. I imagine that someone might claim to be a Christian without

deliberately lying, but without making any serious effort to confirm the claim. Your initial position seemed excessively simple. I am willing to take credit/blame for increasing the complexity of your stand.

[newmajority]

4. Correct answer is....

The word "Christian" means "to be like Christ". So an actual Christian would live according to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

And the Robertson/Hagee/Dobson/Phelps/Parsley crowd sure as Hell doesn't fit that description.

[beam me up scottie]

8. If that's the definition, then there are no christians.

I'm going with the sugar on porridge litmus test.

[newmajority]

11. Well, Jesus himself mentioned that there would be two roads

And most would be on the wide road, which is also known as the Highway to Hell. My interpretation of what he meant by that is probably a little different from what the fundies think it means.

Fundies would tell you that they claim to be "saved", so they go to Heaven. But the people Jesus calls "goats" in Matthew 25 sound a lot like the Pharisees of His time, or the Religious Reich of today. And they're the ones destined for the extreme climate in the end.

[beam me up scottie]

15. They can cite infinite verses to justify their claim, just as you can yours.

If you're referring to cino's, you can't know what's in their heart anymore than they can know what's in yours.

[newmajority]

17. "By their fruits ye shall know them"

And the fruits of the fundie trees are usually rotten.

[beam me up scottie]

19. Like I said.

If you have absolute proof that they are not christians, please cite it.

[Boojatta]

20. Do you require absolute proof to substantiate other kinds of claims?

[beam me up scottie]

21. When one claims to know another's mind, I require absolute proof.

And yes, I'm still waiting for it.

[Boojatta]

22. I thought that criminal courts use a standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt."

For some causes of action in civil courts, the state of mind of the defendant is relevant and the standard is (if I'm not mistaken) "the preponderance of the evidence." That's much weaker than absolute proof.

[beam me up scottie]

23. Who's on trial?

I was under the impression you were conducting a simple (by Boojatta's standards) poll.

[Boojatta]

24. Nobody. That's why I'm wondering why you would require "absolute proof."

[beam me up scottie]

25. If I claimed to know what you were thinking, would you want others to just take my word for it?

[Boojatta]

26. No, but if you made a specific claim about what I think,

and if you supported your claim with accurate quotations of my words, then I would want people to either carefully examine the support that you provided or ignore your claim.

[beam me up scottie]

27. No is the answer I was looking for.

Thank you.

[newmajority]

31. OK. Here you go.....

The Fred Phelps cult - says God hates and they hate because He does.

But when Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was, He said....

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matthew 22 17-40

So Jesus teaches Love. Phelps teaches hate. Therefore Phelps is not a Christian.

[beam me up scottie]

32. I'll see your one hateful christian and raise you six more True Christians:

Tomás de Torquemada


How about this fella?:

Martin Luther


and this one:

Pope Urban II


and

Oliver Cromwell


and don't forget

Ferdinand II


and this guy

John Calvin


I could cite examples all the live long day but I'm tired of wasting my time with christians who think they're morally superior to the rest of us.

I wondered how long it would be before the NTSF raised its ugly holier-than-thou head.

[beam me up scottie]

33. Posting pictures of less-than-christlike christians is not proof that they don't qualify.

How's that porridge?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

41. That's simply not what the word means.

The word Christian means "a follower of the religion started by Christ". It's nothing to do with being like Christ, except possibly implicitly.

You may well feel that being "christlike" is more important than being "christian". But that's not what the word means.

[Dervill Crow]

13. Hmmmmm.

I said none of the above, since I'm too tired to see if my answer really fits into any of the categories above.

It annoys me no end that there is this pervasive idea that Christian = good. It is amusing and exasperating that the Christians with whom I work all assume I am a Christian because I am "nice." I'm as Pagan as can be.

But back to the poll. Even though the Bible admonishes its readers to pray in private and not be like the Pharisees, it also says that a true Christian should not be ashamed to profess it. And then there's the Great Commission that gives the task of preaching the Gospel to the whole world, so an evangelical Christian would certainly profess it. A fake Christian would profess it to all and sundry, also.

[Boojatta]

18. "a true Christian should not be ashamed to profess it"

There seem to be a variety of reasons (besides shame) that someone may refrain from professing to be a Christian.

For example:

1. Desire to avoid misleading people. For example, there may be conflicting opinions about the meaning of the word "Christian"

2. Security concerns. For example, concern that the information could reach people who are hostile to Christians.

3. Lack of knowledge of the concept "Christian."

4. A desire to obtain meaningful results from a long-term psychological experiment that requires that the information not be disclosed.

5. Lack of self-knowledge.

6. Urgent tasks that do not permit distractions that could be provoked by professing to be a Christian.

I suspect that other people could easily add to the list.

[Dervill Crow]

28. Good point. There are a lot of reasons not to discuss religion -- or politics!

Like I said, my brain is tuckered out.

I was thinking of 2 Timothy 2:15. "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." Of course, like that whole book, it's open to interpretation as to whether it is saying to be unashamed before God, before other people, or before both.

And even with that verse in mind, if someone asks me about my religious beliefs or lack thereof I want to have an idea of why they want to know before I answer.

[SidDithers]

34. If someone professes to be a Christian, then they're a Christian...

There's no objective standard by which you can evaluate someone else's Chritianity, because Christians pick and choose which parts of the source material they want to follow all the time. There may be Christians who believe differently, or who behave differently. But who's to say which "standard" of Christianity is valid, and which isn't?

Sid

[Occam Bandage]

35. Poll is kinda useless unless we agree on a definition for the term "Christian."

[Boojatta]

37. The word "Christian" is kind of useless if it has no agreed upon meaning.

While the word "Christian" may continue to be used in a casual and vague way in GD, it may become a rarely used word here in Religion/Theology, where one might naively expect to see it. If this poll contributes to driving the word "Christian" out of the vocabulary of Religion/Theology, then this poll might be serving a useful purpose.

[Az]

38. Feel free to use the word as much as you want

Just provide clarifications as to what you mean by the word.

[Boojatta]

39. Could you please

provide clarification(s) as to what you meant by the word "Christian" when you wrote the following?

But what really makes me scratch my head is what Christians are doing in foxholes or in any situation where they are required to kill other human beings.

I cannot recall whether or not the thread in which those words appeared is still active. If it is still active, then I think the best approach would be for you to post your clarification in that thread and simply provide a link in this thread to the new post that provides clarification of what you meant when you used the word "Christian."

[Az]

40. That thread is long since dead

And I did reply in this thread (I think) as to what I meant. But I will gladly detail it again.

As I have read much about Jesus and what he taught I have my own opinions based on those ideas of what he meant. And thus I find it disconcerting to find people that claim to follow the teachings I have read in foxholes, often gleefully, killing people. I still accept that these people claim to be Christians. As there is no earthly measure of what an official Christian is I can only go by the claims of others. My interpretation of his teachings certainly does not qualify as official so I cannot be the final arbiter as to who is or is not a Christian. But I can certainly have my own opinions about who I think may be a hypocrite or not.

[Boojatta]

43. Many people post replies and new threads on DU.

Why not tell everyone on DU that you require clarification from anyone who uses the word "Christian"?

[ZombieHorde]

42. I sometimes wonder if there really are Christians.

Often times, it seems to me, that being a Christian has nothing to do with Christianity.

[RagAss]

44. "Why do you seek the living among the dead ?"

Christian? Non-Christian?....Nothing is real until it negates to void.

[Boojatta]

45. "Nothing is real until it negates to void."

I'm having trouble understanding how that could be both asserted and believed.

For example, is the natural satellite closest to the Earth (known as "the Moon" or "post-McCain Iraq") now unreal?

For example, is the star closest to the Earth (known as "the Sun" or "Sol" or "the thing that's running out of energy because negligent American astronomers don't turn it off when it's night in the USA") now unreal?

[RagAss]

46. Try this.....

http://www.weiwuwei.8k.com/books.html

[knitter4democracy]

47. Since I haven't read the Book of Life, I'm going with whoever calls him/herself one.

It's not for me to judge. There are different types of Christians, different schools of thought, etc., but it it not up to me to define anyone's faith.

[Boojatta]

48. Kick to elicit more votes and more comments.