An example of a prayer being answered.

[raccoon]

I've posted before about what does it mean, my prayer was answered. To many people, it means things turned out the way they wanted them to. For a long time, I couldn't see any use in praying.

Here Harold Kushner says it better than I can.


"…I answered the young widow who challenged me about the efficacy of prayer. Her husband had died of cancer, and she told me that while he was terminally ill, she prayed for his recovery. Her parents, her in-laws, and her neighbors all prayed. A Protestant neighbor invoked the prayer circle of her church, and a Catholic neighbor sought the intercession of St. Jude, patron saint of hopeless causes. Every variety, language, and idiom of prayer was mustered on his behalf, and none of them worked. He died right on schedule, leaving her and her young children bereft of a husband and father. After all that, she said to me, how can anyone be expected to take prayer seriously?

Is it really true, I asked her, that your prayers were not answered? Your husband died; there was no miraculous cure for his illness. But what did happen? Your friends and relatives prayed; Jews, Catholics, and Protestants prayed. At a time when you felt so desperately alone, you found out that you were not alone at all. You found out how many other people were hurting for you and with you, and that is no small thing. They were trying to tell you that this was not happening to you because you were a bad person. It was just a rotten, unfair thing that no one could help. They were trying to tell you that your husband’s life meant a lot to them too, and not only to you and your children, and that whatever happened to him, you would not be totally alone. That is what their prayers were saying, and I suspect that it made a difference.

And what about your prayers?, I asked her. Were they left unanswered? You faced a situation that could easily have broken your spirit, a situation that could have left you a bitter, withdrawn woman, jealous of the intact families around you, incapable of responding to the promise of being alive. Somehow that did not happen. Somehow you found the strength not to let yourself be broken. You found the resiliency to go on living and caring about things. Like Jacob in the Bible, like every one of us at one time or another, you faced a scary situation, prayed for help, and found out that you were a lot stronger, and a lot better able to handle it, than you ever would have thought you were. In your desperation, you opened your heart in prayer, and what happened? You didn’t get a miracle to avert a tragedy. But you discovered people around you, and God beside you, and strength within you to help you survive the tragedy. I offer that as an example of a prayer being answered." (Bold my own.)

From WHEN BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE, by Harold S. Kushner, p. 129-131.

[trotsky]

1. Very simply, this is a faith protection mechanism.

Prayer is being set up to NEVER fail. The exercise simply becomes one of searching for some kind of positive outcome of the ordeal, and crediting one's god for that.

My opinion is that this is dishonest, manipulative, and squelches ideas. YMMV.

[1620rock]

2. Trotsky, I am an agnostic, however why do you crap on someone like this?

Is it because you are so cock-sure that you have all ultimate truths down pat? or is it that your intellect makes you smug and discourteous.

[trotsky]

4. LOL

Does insulting me personally make you feel better?

It's a discussion thread in an open forum. If the OP doesn't want any dissenting opinions on the topic (and that's what I was talking about - the TOPIC - not any one person in particular), it should have gone into a group instead.

[Realityhack]

6. what?

He didn't crap on anyone. He pointed out a blatant logical fallacy.

This isn't a group it's an open forum. We don't give people a free pass on sloppy 'logic' here.

If you disagree with Trotsky's analysis say so but why accuse him of crapping on someone for pointing out a fallacy?

[Meshuga]

14. The people who know Harold Kushner and his work...

...would know that he does not make the case for a personal (supernatural) God or a God that answers prayer. Quite the opposite, he is very much against theological positions that would set false expectations or false sense of protection from a deity like a supernatural deity who is watching and taking care of people. He holds a more naturalistic view that most would see as non-theistic.

However, he is a proponent of prayer for the sake of emotional support, meditation, for the sake of community, togetherness, etc. It is a support system that he advocates.

So, reading this passage, knowing more about Harold Kushner, I know that he is not making an excuse for God when in the same book that is being quoted here, Harold Kushner speaks very strongly against doing such a thing.

[trotsky]

16. Ah, thanks for that background.

However I have to wonder, why not just come out and advocate that position rather than hinting it's how the prayer is being answered by a supreme being?

[Meshuga]

21. He is talking about "efficacy of prayer" and not about "efficacy of a supernatural God"

The person who reads this book will realize that Kushner is against prayer for petition besides having the opportunity to learn some of his theological background and see what he means.

He is not trying to say that her prayers were answered in her original approach or in the way she intended the prayers to be answered (which he is explicitly against in this book) but that they were answered for what prayer is supposed to provide. The root for tefilah (word for prayer in Hebrew) means to judge oneself, and prayer has existed so it can provide introspection, self help, etc. There is nothing to be attributed to a supernatural being in what he is explaining.

We live in a society where the word prayer is attached to petitioning a supernatural being to get what we want and need and Kushner "preaches" against that approach in the book. He believes prayer has some "healing powers" (not in a supernatural connotation).

He also mentions the word "miracle" which he doesn't expect to see since, in this book, he talks about the question of why people get sick (rejecting the notion that we deserve what we get) saying that it has nothing to do with supernatural powers but because of chance or the way we take care of ourselves, environment, family history, etc. Not because of "sins" or punishments from a supernatural father figure.

[trotsky]

23. I'm a little confused, then, regarding this quote:

In your desperation, you opened your heart in prayer, and what happened? You didn’t get a miracle to avert a tragedy. But you discovered people around you, and God beside you, and strength within you to help you survive the tragedy. I offer that as an example of a prayer being answered.

He certainly seems to be including God as a causative factor in this "answered" prayer.

[Meshuga]

26. Harold Kushner is a rabbi

and affiliated to the Conservative Movement. He is religious regardless of his beliefs (or lack of beliefs). God is a component of Judaism especially of the conservative movement where its philosophy and tradition are based on the idea of one God. There is a lot of room as far as "God nature" is concerned and the "Mordechai Kaplan"/"Reconstructionist" idea is one of them. He doesn't believe in a personal or a Biblical God, so to him God is something like this, and I'm quoting from one of his books:

The name "God" stands for all those qualities in the world and in ourselves which our religious tradition labels as divine, that is, as comprising full human spiritual development, fashioning Man into what he is at his best and most fully realized. If Truth, Justice, Mercy, Generosity, Love are among the things we need to be genuine human beings, to be, in Biblical phrase, men "in God's image", then the name "God" stands for the existence of these qualities in the world and the existence of a corresponding impulse toward them in every human soul.

The statement, for example, that "God is Just" or that "God demands justice of men" doesn't really tells us anything about a being named God. But it tells us that justice is one of the qualities human beings need to be fully and satisfyingly human...

That is his God he utilizes for the purpose of Jewish ethics and Jewish folkways. So I don't think that the "God beside you" quote by Kushner really addresses a being named God. I don't know what he means exactly but I don't think he is talking about a being.

There is a midrash that attributes God with the following saying, "I don't mind if my children abandon me as long as they follow my mitzvot because through good deeds they will eventually find me". I know Kushner attempts to define God but we are not a religion that claims that we have found God and know what It is. Much less trying to prove the existence of a supernatural being. We are in the business of following our ethical system, folkway, etc. to find our spirituality. The word God is used for measurement. I know I sound like a fucking fruit cake but that sums up the ultimate goal when following all this stuff. And Kushner is an observant Jew who sees God as an important component of Judaism and what it stands for.

[Dorian Gray]

34. Very informative

and fascinating, Mr. Wiggles. Thanks for sharing all that information.

[raccoon]

28. Well said. Thanks for your input. nt

[Dorian Gray]

33. Prayer

is also a form of meditation. It doesn't have to be about asking FOR something. It can, and should often, be about reflection.

[jody]

3. I don't believe in miracles or magic where miracles are events caused by a supernatural being

using supernatural powers to override the laws of nature and magic is events caused by a natural being using supernatural powers to override the laws of nature.

I've been bothered by the concept of prayer before my teens because it seemed similar to God being my private jinni ready to do my bidding when I invoked the appropriate incantation aka prayer.

[OwnedByFerrets]

5. And when its NOT answered......

then it was gods will all along, as a means of testing our faith.:puke:

[jody]

7. That's the way I understand the teachings of the many religions I've studied. The main teaching I've

discovered in my reading about religion as a non-student of either theology or philosophy is the Golden Rule that also shows up in Humanist Manifesto III as "Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness."

[sinkingfeeling]

11. Nice chart. Do you mind if I 'steal' it?

[jody]

12. No sweat, either copy the picture's link or look for it at the link below.

http://www.jcu.edu/philosophy/gensler/goldrule.htm

[uberllama42]

8. The prayer was not answered

The lady in this anecdote prayed for her husband to be well again. Nothing happened to abate his illness. Just because there was an upside to the situation does not mean that prayer the prayers of the people were answered. Claiming that they were is a weak attempt to justify a delusion, the common belief held by everyone in the story that prayer is efficacious.

The people in the anecdote came together and expressed their concern for this woman because they were people of good will. There was nothing supernatural about what happened, and claiming that prayer had any positive effect demeans the empathy and humanity of the people who rallied in support of the woman.

[Speck Tater]

9. Even if God is real, the problem with prayer

is that the same people that pray, claim that God knows everything, is all powerful, knows everything that will happen in the future, and has an ultimate plan for the unfolding of all creation.

That being the case, how can they expect to say a few words and expect God to change His mind, alter His grand plan, and change the whole future? If God knows everything, He knows what you want before you even start to pray, and what you want has already been factored into the grand plan. Telling God something he already knows cannot possibly cause Him to change a plan that is based on what He already knows. You simply can't tell God what to do; His mind is already made up, and was made up a thousand billion years ago when the plan was put into action.

I much prefer the point of view that says we choose the circumstances of our current incarnation in order to learn things we would like to learn. Sometimes life can be damn difficult. Sometimes an advanced calculus course can be damn difficult. But if we want to earn that engineering degree we knowingly sign up for that damn difficult course because we know the course will provide us with much needed knowledge in the long run. Likewise, when we chose this incarnation, with all its difficulties, we knowingly signed up for a life whose difficulties will provide us with the experience, knowledge and wisdom we know will stand us in good stead in future incarnations, and in whatever comes after we've graduated once and for all from the round of earthly incarnations.

[raccoon]

10. I guess what I'm trying to point out is, I think many people think prayer is like magic.

Like they pray for a certain outcome, or for miracles. I don't think it works that way.

Some of you may not think it works at all, which is your privilege.

[jody]

13. As I pointed out in #3, like you I don't believe in miracles or magic where both require overriding

the laws of nature.

I accept the possible psychological effects upon a person knowing many dear friends care enough about her/him to pray that she/he recovers from a serious illness.

[edhopper]

15. So what's the point of prayer.

Why can't friends come together to comfort someone without the superfluous act of prayer. If it's the social contact that's important, then that can be accomplished without the voodoo.
And BTW wasn't the reliance on prayer behind the story on this forum about the girl who died without medical care.

And as Jim Morison says;
"Petition the Lord with Prayer? You Cannot Petition the Lord with Prayer!"

[jody]

17. Your questions can only be answered by each group with their own religious beliefs. I can state mine

as can you and we can read those of different groups.

In the end, I doubt if either you or I or any other group will change their beliefs based on new arguments.

In the end, hopefully, we will find ways to life together at the largest social level while living differently at sub group social levels.

Isn't that what the experiment called the United States is all about?

[edhopper]

18. Of course.

But this is an open forum in which the OP put forth a purpose for prayer being asking divine intervention. I find the logic flawed. To me the experiment you speak of is how to allow for different beliefs by people, without having them interfere with the common good. I think these last 8 years have taught us what happens when one person's belief overshadow that good.

[jody]

19. I'll drink to that re last 8 years. I've observed many improvements over my life and all set backs

were a few years in duration.

IMO, we are on a long term path toward finding a way for a multi-cultural society to coexist in relative harmony. If the U.S. doesn't succeed, the future will be very dismal for the world.

[moggie]

20. Shorter Harold Kushner

What he seems to be saying is:

"When tragedy befalls you, take comfort in the wonderfulness of people - family, friends, neighbours, doctors, workmates, even complete strangers - because you certainly can't expect any help from invisible, supernatural entities"

I've been through two bereavements in my immediate family. No prayer was involved: the family are all unbelievers, and Christians are pretty thin on the ground in our circles of friends. Everyone around us showed great kindness and helpfulness, with two exceptions, a vicar and a bishop (who fortunately had no involvement in the humanist funerals). You have no need of appeals to mystical beings to bear the pain: there is help at hand right here on Earth among your own kind, and praising God for this is just a bait-and-switch tactic. Celebrate people, not gods: they're all you've got.

[Meshuga]

22. I think that pretty much sums it up.

And in the book he talks about the absurdities people say in order for God to save face. And about horrendous things people (including clergy) say, like telling grieving parents that their child is in a better place now next to God...yada...yada...yada...

[Evoman]

24. i.e. Prayers always work. Man...religious people have no fucking standards.

The easier explanation: Your prayers aren't answered, god doesn't exist, and your just being optimistic. Why bend over backwards to explain the obvious.

[knitter4democracy]

25. If I'd been that wife, I'd have gotten pretty pissed off at that answer.

She already knew about that support network--she turned to them in her time of crisis to ask them to pray for her husband and therefore knew they loved her and supported her beforehand.

The reality is, her prayers went unanswered. Who knows why. Sometimes prayers are answered, sometimes they're answered in odd ways, and sometimes they just plain aren't answered. Being a person of faith, I take it on faith that there's a reason behind all of that, but I can definitely understand why someone else wouldn't and why that wife would be furious with that lame answer.

[Meshuga]

31. His answers are usually not satisfying to religious people...

...who believe in a personal God who will grant wishes and perform miracles in order to save a deserving human being from something terrible or believe in a God who allows suffering with some kind of meaning or because someone is not worthy enough to receive God's help. And if there is a personal deity allowing such things to happen then why should his disciples try to save his reputation and find excuses for God whenever something terrible happens to someone or to themselves?

[varkam]

27. The problem is that the hypothesis has already been accepted...

that god will care for you and answer your prayers. In the mind of theists, that is already a done deal. A prayer is always answered, even when it is not. When it is not, it then becomes the task of that person to try to explain how this prayer was answered if things didn't shake out like they were hoping.

[raccoon]

29. A lot of people think prayer is like rubbing a magic lamp, and you get your wish.

Only difference is the genie doesn't pop out.

They believe this because they've been taught as children; I was too. I used to believe this myself. I didn't see any point in it; too many times I'd prayed for something, and I didn't get what I wanted.

Yesterday I was thinking how that kind of belief doesn't make sense on any level. For instance, suppose you and I interview for the same job, which we both want. We both pray that we'll get the job (BTW, I don't personally think prayers like that work.) Obviously, both of us aren't going to get the job.

I'm for whatever gets you through the night. If you think prayer/meditation/whatever helps you, so much the better.

Harold Kushner's works, especially this book, helped me a lot.

[skepticscott]

36. Maybe that's because

Jesus stated explicitly in the Bible that prayer works in exactly that way. He said that whatever you ask God for in his name would be granted. And for the past 2000 years people have had to invent all sorts of reasons other than the fact that God doesn't exist to explain why Jesus wasn't lying. The current idiocy "God answers all prayers, but sometimes the answer is no" is simply the latest version.

[crawfish]

30. A few examples of what I believe are answered prayers in my life

First: Many years ago, we found a house we loved and bought it. At the time, we had just worked ourselves out of some serious debt, but were still getting on our feet. We got a great price on the house - what we thought would be instant equity - because it had been on the market a while. A few months afterward we found out some distressing news - there had been some additional expenses on the home which had been hidden from us by the sellers and our realtor. We had purchased at less than what we could afford in what seemed like a good financial move, but the additional expense put it at about $300 above that amount.

We fought, argued, complained and prayed for a few weeks, not knowing what to do. It seemed we were stuck with it and there was nothing we could do. However, two weeks later, my employer called me in to tell me that the company had done a salary survey and found that I was underpaid, and were immediately adjusting my salary. The amount? Around $280 per month! It's as if God said, "I'll bail you out, but I won't let you be comfortable". We did manage to get in a better financial situation, and ended up selling the house five years later for a good profit.

Second: About 9 years ago, my wife found a lump in her breast. It was in the same place that, three times prior, a lump had been found, every time benign. My wife hates needles and the trouble that a biopsy puts you through; plus, it was Christmas season and she was very busy. She decided she'd wait a while before doing anything about it.

She attended a bible class every Tuesday at our church. We had three small children at the time; the youngest just a year old. One particular Tuesday, she got up late, and knew she wouldn't make it to class in time. She almost decided not to go, but went ahead. She dropped off the two youngest at child care at the church and found that the event was actually at a woman's home that day, and she'd be even later to it than she thought; plus, she didn't have directions. She decided that she just wouldn't go, and would take advantage of the time to run some errands - but as she was leaving, a friend saw her and asked for a ride. The point of this is, she had every reason and intention not to go, but she ended up going anyway.

Which was nothing short of a miracle. The speaker that day was a breast cancer survivor; who had experience the exact same thing with multiple benign biopsies before one finally came up positive. She was convinced to schedule the biopsy for later that week. The results were that the lump itself was benign, but they found a very aggressive form of breast cancer alongside that was only detectable under a microscope. It is very likely it would've spread to her lymph nodes if she'd waited 1-2 months, and once that happens all bets are off. I do believe that God answered our prayers about the lump by getting her to that class.



I realize that, without a basis in faith, the above can be attributed to complete coincidence. I was underpaid in the first instance and could have sought (and got) a higher-paying job. In the second, the lump was a point of anxiety to her, no matter how much she tried to push it away. However, I lived it, and I know what I feel.

[knitter4democracy]

32. I've had prayers answered, too.

I realize that many would just chalk it up to coincidence or whatever, but after awhile, all those coincidences start to look like something else. :)

Blessings to your wife. Breast cancer is a horrible thing to go through. Just plain awful.

[ChazII]

38. Thanks for sharing your story.

Sadly, there are some who will ridicule those who believe as you do.

[5LeavesLeft]

35. What we pray for

Prayer is not humans demanding that God do we as we say. The following quote is from www.LDS.org
(yes, that LDS)

As soon as we learn the true relationship in which we stand toward God (namely, God is our Father, and we are his children), then at once prayer becomes natural and instinctive on our part (Matt. 7: 7-11). Many of the so-called difficulties about prayer arise from forgetting this relationship. Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them. Prayer is a form of work, and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings.

From me:
God is not Santa Claus. God is not our parents asking what we want for our birthdays. What many people consider prayer are actually attempts to assert their own will, not to receive God's blessings or to understand what his will is. Ever see that episode of King of Queens where Doug and Kerrie got into a "prayer off" ? Funny stuff, but pretty good demonstration of how not to pray.

[skepticscott]

37. Another lame rationalization

of the undeniable fact that the world looks exactly as it would and everything happens exactly as it would if there were no God and nobody listening to or caring about the "prayers" of human beings.

[Silent3]

39. For the Biblical literalist...

...(and I'm not saying you personally are one) the version of prayer you describe is hard to reconcile with Matthew 7-11

⁷"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. ⁸For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

⁹"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? ¹⁰Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? ¹¹If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

That certainly sounds like a literalist should be able to except a Santa Claus God. But even for the non-literalist, I agree with skepticscott that your explanation amounts to a lame rationalization for the effect of prayer being completely indecipherable from not having your prayers even heard, much less answered, by any deity at all.

[5LeavesLeft]

40. I am not a biblical literalist

nor do I much believe in any religion. I haven't been to church in many years, after having been in many churches. I got baptized Pentecostal in Jackson, MS, trained as an auditor in Scientology and wore "magic underwear" as an LDS. Like Bono said " I still haven't found what I'm looking for". I find it very difficult to believe that any religion is truth with a capital "T". It's even harder for me to believe that there is no God. That there are observable things in a universe and beings who can observe them. And be aware that they are observing them. And that it all just happened without reason. I can't disprove any religion, since that is a matter of faith. Despite my logic and reason and I cannot conclude with certainty that I am right and they are wrong. Truth exists independent of my opinion of it. So I accept that every religion may have some truth to it, despite my disagreements with that religion. I do not want to imbue any religion or belief with my own bias and standards, and then criticize it for failing to meet my bias and standards. Some people say prayer works for them. If it works for them it works for them. Maybe God really is Santa Claus, maybe God really did want the latest misogynist rapper to win a Grammy. But that is not the God of Christendom. Not according to what I have read in scriptures. I am not going to criticize a God or a religion because it doesn't adhere to my world view. Who am I to say, "Don't follow those old prophets, it's all a scam and they know nothing. Follow what I tell you is true, for I alone know the truth."?

[FiveGoodMen]

41. "things in a universe and beings who can observe them ... all just happened without reason"

If beings who can observe can't happen without a god, then how could god happen in the first place?

No simple answer to either one, I realize, but attributing the amazing fact of all this existence to a higher being who, in turn, just came out of nowhere (or just always was) doesn't really answer the question.

[5LeavesLeft]

42. No, it doesn't

answer the question. It's just a more satisfactory answer for me. It is easier for me to believe that there is a God, whose existence I can't fully comprehend, that created a universe that I can comprehend, than it is for me to believe that there is no God and that there is a universe that just popped up out of nowhere and for no reason. A universe that came out of nowhere is as difficult for me to believe as the existence of a God that created a universe is difficult for you to believe. The question I always ask myself is "Why anything?" Why is there anything for me to observe? Why is there me to observe it? Couldn't the universe get along just fine without me? And if it can, what the hell am I doing here? I tried the "I'm just trying to get my kicks in before the whole shithouse goes up in flames" approach, but realized I'm just not that cool. I guess it's a certain arrogance on my part that makes me think my existence matters, but I do. I'm just not sure why.

[Silent3]

43. What does "more satisfactory" have to do with anything?

Especially when the metric is your own human emotional satisfaction?

And how does inserting the extra entity of a God into things -- instead of a universe that always existed, a created universe created by a God that always existed -- even help with the idea of purpose, or of what "matters"?

So, you feel like you "matter" more if you imagine God made you. But why does it matter what God does? Who does it matter to what God does? What God does matters to God? What purpose does things mattering to God serve? Why is that better than you mattering to yourself and to other people, without a God in the picture? Just not grand and sweeping enough for you?

[FiveGoodMen]

46. Well, I'm not really aiming to change your mind, but...

Why would a god that "just popped up out of nowhere and for no reason" be easier to believe than a "a universe that just popped up out of nowhere and for no reason"?

Either way, there's something complex and amazing whose origins are difficult to determine.

(It's still nice having a flame-free conversation about it, though. Thanks.)

[Az]

44. Shoot an arrow and paint the target where ever it lands

This is what this claim amounts to. It is well meaning and kind hearted but the meaning comes out to be the same. Pray and whatever happens was for the best and God did it. Unfortunately this is not the nature of the world we actually live in. People pray and do so often out of a desperate need for assistance or hope. And if they have been taught to expect prayer to provide such things they may avoid pursuing more effective methods of correcting their problems.

An example:

Source http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23809282/
--------------------------
Girl Dies After Family Prays Instead Of Seeking Medical Help
WTMJ-TV and JSOnline.com
updated 9:42 p.m. ET, Wed., March. 26, 2008

The mother of an 11-year-old girl who died of untreated diabetes said Wednesday that she did not know her daughter was terminally ill as she prayed for her to get better.

WESTON - The mother of an 11-year-old girl who died of untreated diabetes said Wednesday that she did not know her daughter was terminally ill as she prayed for her to get better. Madeline Neumann died Sunday from a treatable form of diabetes. Her mother, Leilani Neumann, told The Associated Press that she never expected her daughter, whom she called Kara, to die. The family believes in the Bible, and it says healing comes from God, but they are not crazy, religious people, she said.
--------------------------

This is the sort of problem that prayer creates. The bible clearly states that what people pray for in faith they will receive. The fact that such a thing can in fact be tested and is shown repeatedly to be inaccurate means that those who make claims about prayer must update it to account for the ambiguous responses that any given prayer are met with. Thus claims of prayer being a means of learning from God, finding one's way, or other such explanations are merely more subterfuge to cover up the fact that there is in fact no great and terrible Oz. Only some men in frocks hiding behind curtains and pulpits.

[and-justice-for-all]

45. You can pray to a gallon of milk and get the same result..nt