Can we PLEASE stop equating religion with mental illness of any sort?

[TZ]

Its seems there are too many of these comparisons of late. As someone who struggeles with depression and anxiety on a daily basis, AND has two seriously mentally ill family members I really get tired of the comparison.
First of all saying religious belief is a mental illness is flame-bait. But its also totally WRONG. I would guess that those posters who talk about religious delusions have never actually dealt with delusional people. I know relgious people and while I may not agree with what they beleive and even question some of their beliefs (yes- I know someone who claims to be able to speak in tongues) it is far from true delusional beliefs which if you want to put it in religous terms would be believing that Jesus and/or God talks to them and is telling them what to do. But that kind of thing isn't limited to religious beleifs thats for sure.
But knowing personally what I do about mental illness its not an apt comparison. NOT AT ALL. And it degrades the seriousness of mental illness a true problem in society(and with a strong organic component).
Even some of the posts that aren't necessarily directly comparisons make correlations that bother me ie the "why are so many relgious folks depressed"? Thats a generality that really bothers me..depression strikes many groups through out our society. I actually have heard about a great deal of COMICS that have depression but does that mean humor and depression are linked? Nope.
Also I would like to note mental illness runs in my family but my family is a pretty secular/atheistic group. Does that mean that atheists are mentally ill..no not at all so lets not turn it the other way.
To be fair I also don't believe that religious beliefs have anything to do with treatment. There was a thread recently about how a certain study showed a percentage of psychiatrists don't believe in God. So what? The treatment of mental illness (psychiatry) is a science. There are many many studies that show mental illness has more to do with brain chemistry than anything else. Plenty of studies that show that religious beliefs or lack of them have to do with how you are raised. So you can say one is nature and one is nuture I suppose. BUt I definitely don't believe in "faith-based" psychiatry anymore than "faith-based" medicine but thats a whole different topic.
But I do think that equating religion and mental illness has no place in this forum or anywhere else for that matter. It not only demeans believers but it demeans the seriousness of mental illness as well.

[endarkenment]

1. no. nt.

[TZ]

2. thats not helpful.

If thats your opinion so be it, but its not productive to push this agenda- it accomplishes nothing.

[endarkenment]

3. You asked and I replied.

Sorry but I refuse to cooperate. I find some behavior motivated by religious beliefs to be insane. For example: Bush declaring that his supernatural diety told him to go bomb Iraq, occupy that nation, murder Iraqis and destroy their land. Another example: 19 religiously insane people hijack planes and destroy a huge building killing thousands of people. The religiously insane have left a bloody historical record across the pages of history. I refuse to pretend otherwise.

[northernsoul]

10. a small quibble

I don't think that many of the "religiously insane" that you cite are mentally ill in a clinical / DSM-IV way. They are ostensibly sane actors who have followed the premises of their religious dogmas to their logical conclusions - with results that we perceive as "insane."

[endarkenment]

12. I am not a psychiatrist and am not constrained by the DSM

insane to me is what I observe to be insane.

How about messianic psychosis if we are going to quibble?


Clinical features of messianic delusions in endogenous psychoses have been retrospectively studied in 75 patients (33 male, 42 female, aged 16-62 years, illness duration from 0.5 to 39 years) with diagnosis paranoid schizophrenia, continuous type (F20.00)--18 patients, attack like progressive type (F20.02)--17 patients, schizoaffective disorder (F25)--27 and acute polymorphic psychotic disorder (F23.03)--13. Being a kind of delusion of grandeur, messianic delusion is characterized by destruction of "self" as break with the past experience, transformation to mythological characters (total depersonalization) and assignment of supernatural power. Its content is similar to apocalyptical, mystical, antagonistic (Manicheam) delusions. Formation of the delusion plot occurred in the framework of hallucinate-paranoid syndrome received its greatest expression in the structure of paraphrenic and oneiroid syndromes. The volume of its content, duration and mechanisms of delusion formation (hallucinative, sensual and delusion of imagination) were defined by a form of schizophrenic psychosis. Sometimes such patients confer social danger and demand more attention from psychiatrists.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=16737155&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google

I believe this qualifies.

[NMMNG]

57. You're only showing that some people with mental illness have religious

delusions and/or obsessions. You're not making a credible case for religious people being mentally ill simply because they're religious.

[theredpen]

24. Pretending and history

But you are pretending. You obviously aren't acquainted with what's on "the pages of history."

The historical record has amply demonstrated that religion is not a motivating factor for the worst atrocities in history. Even if you grant that the Holocaust was "religious insanity" (and my opinion is that it was ethnic cleansing), you still don't have the kind of "bloody record" that rivals the killing done for completely secular reasons.

Furthermore, you would be foolish to argue that the Iraq war or the 9/11 attacks wouldn't have happened if there were no religion. The 9/11 attacks were staged by people who didn't want our troops on their land. People don't need religion to be upset about that. The Iraq war is about oil, not religion. George W. Bush is just a lump of meat with fur on it — it doesn't matter what he believes, the Iraq war was engineered by Dick Cheney and PNAC.

Finally, I think that turtlensue has a good point. Depression is a terrible affliction and to toss it around as a rhetorical device — especially such an empty one — is offensive to those whose lives are affected by it.

[endarkenment]

26. Both Bush and bin Laden claim God tells them what to do.

You may know they are liars, I think they are insane.

Religion, honestly or dishonestly, has been used as an excuse for slaughter for thousands of years.

[theredpen]

27. Lots of things are used as excuses

Maybe Bush believes that God wanted him to invade Iraq. Maybe he actually believed that Iraq had WMDs. The difference between an "excuse" and a "reason" is that excuses are interchangeable and reasons are integral.

You said that Iraq, as an example, was "motivated by religious beliefs," and that is not true. It may have been excused by religious beliefs, but that doesn't make it an act of religion, any more than the claims of Iraqi WMDs make it an act of anti-nuclear-proliferation.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. And if the neocons are following the advice of their mentor Leo Strauss

they don't really give a rat's ass about religion but are just claiming to be religious in order to impress the gullible.

[endarkenment]

48. true indeed

but perhaps dumbass is in the category of the insane/gullible.

[northernsoul]

56. Why did Strauss recommend religion as a means of manipulation?

If you are correct and not a solitary neocon is a sincere tenant in any form of religious belief, why have they found the manipulation of religious rhetoric to be so effective in furthering their evil-doing?

[theredpen]

71. Religion evokes an emotional response

Propaganda is designed to evoke an emotional response. Religious fervor, patriotism, and ethnicity are all fertile ground.

It's not entirely off base to argue that without religion to provide a convenient hook, the propagandist's job would be that much more difficult. Eliminating religion, however, has proven to be a fool's errand and isn't a tolerable goal in a free society. A better plan — with an actual chance of success — would be to modify the culture surrounding religion. The "religious insanity" of the fundies is something new, historically and it is uniquely Anglo-American.

Religion doesn't have to be the tool of anyone other than its practitioners. Attempts by some to paint it as a social ill that needs "curing" are only feeding the persecution fantasies of the extremists.

[truedelphi]

112. I don't think it is all that new. What the neo con right wing preachers are doing now

Looks and smells a lot like what the Puritans did starting around 1620 as a means to control the population.

And they had to control the population - one out of every five people who set foot in the New Land Before 1620 ended up off living with the "Indians" either through being captured and then not wanting to go back, or through realizing that it was silly to live off in trading societies who were very dependent upon the Indians yet the society had to answer to Tyrannical rulers like the Puritan Preachers, or to the military of one of the European nation states.

So the puritan preachers began to lay the notion of "heathens' as being "Diabolical" and that to save your soul, as a Good White Man or Good White WOman, you had to avoid contact with them and be prepared to kill them.

Almost the same rhetoric is now going on inside the fanatically insane Christian Right Wingers'
Sunday congregations. Main talking point: "Unless all who are not of the Lord are smited, the Lord himself will smite you on Judgement Day." Etc.

[2beToby]

39. While I wouldn't say

all religious people are mentally insane, I agree with your line of thought on this.

Both Bush and bin Laden claim God tells them what to do.

You can think they're insane, I can think they're liars... but there are people out there who BELIEVE their lies/delusions, and those people are most certainly insane. Really guillibe just doesn't cut it at that level. Really faithful just doesn't cut it at that level. If someone tells you, "God made me kill thousands of people", and you accept that without any resignation, that's insane, or some other serious mental problem.

[endarkenment]

42. I've never said all religious people are mentally insane.

The op asked us to not correlate insanity with religiousity, but there is a correlation. Not a strong correlation. Certainly not "all religous people are insane". Some insane people manifest and/or justify their insane behavior with religious ideas. Everyone who believes in supernatural dieties strike me as odd, but I don't assume they are all insane. The ones who go out and do evil and justify it with their professed belief in supernatural dieties are the ones I consider insane, plus the ones who, as you point out, support the behavior of these loons using the same irrational belief system.

[heidler1]

94. I agree. One thing that keeps getting left out of the details is, it's not just the fundies.

In the 2004 presidential election every one of the organized Christian groups gave Bush the majority of their votes. There is a connection and these people like Bush would dump the separation clause in the Constitution. I have no sympathy for Bush crying on Gods shoulder or anyone else that is depressed while working to give more power to any religion. This includes claims that religion even helps people. IMO lies do not help people so justifying lies is a no sale for me.

http://people-press.org/commentary/display.php3?AnalysisID=103

On edit I took out dup. word.

[theredpen]

105. What are we going to do about that?

In the 2004 presidential election every one of the organized Christian groups gave Bush the majority of their votes.

So what message should we send to the religious swing voters who went from Gore in 2000 to Bush in 2004? I mean after we tell them that we hate them for "justifying lies"? We could have a GOTV drive aimed at church groups with the motto "Come vote you justifiers of lies." I think that will help the numbers in 2008.

The percentage of Black Christians who voted Republican nearly doubled between 2000 and 2004, maybe we could add the "n-word" to the slogan and really win 'em over.

[heidler1]

107. Your snarky reply won't help, but reminding the Christian voters that they got sucked in might.

If the word gullible fits throw that out loud and clear. Making fun of their listening to the same God that lets Bush cry on his shoulder might help. Picking on them might even help.

[theredpen]

108. No God lets Bush cry on his shoulder

Bush was probably talking about Rove.

If the word gullible fits throw that out loud and clear. Making fun of their listening to the same God that lets Bush cry on his shoulder might help. Picking on them might even help.

I'll bring this to my Church on Sunday and pass it around. We're a pretty liberal bunch, but maybe after I say, "I got this off 'Democratic Underground'" some of them will start voting straight ticket Green Party.

Don't expect us to be standing outside of the tent when you want us to come in and vote Democrat in November 2008.

I know, I know, "good riddance, we don't need you." 77% if this country is Christian, so no one wins an election by alienating all the Christians, but I see that some people on DU are willing to try.

[heidler1]

109. From where I sit it looks like the Christians want to take over the government.

As soon as they do it, it will self destruct. I'm not a Randroid, but it smells like the unintended consequence of the Christian effort. Ready or not here comes "Atlas Shrugged". You have reinforced my suspicion that over half of the people are loony.

[theredpen]

110. Oh no you did NOT just reference Ayn Rand

Isn't there some corollary to Godwin's Law about that?

From where I sit it looks like the Christians want to take over the government.

Well, the first thing you need to do is to shield yourself from our Orbital Mind Control Lasers.
:tinfoilhat:

[Meshuga]

106. Hey....

The Jewish vote went 70 percentile for Kerry. That's pretty strong. I wonder where the Muslim vote went as well since Bush and Republicans are not Islam friendly.

[truedelphi]

100. But aren't you overlooking that eight to fifty million

Mostly women were killed by the Catholic Church initiated witch hunts that lasted from the 1100's through to the Inquisition.

Then you have the Inquisition - in which again women were targeted even for such decent activities as knowing what herbs to give another woman to aid in child birth. (While meanwhile the Catholics and Protestants killed one another on account of zero tolerance for "heresy believers")

Then you have the genocide and enslavement of countless "heathens" in the North and Central and South American land masses - simply because these Native Peoples stood between the white man and his need to explore for gold, have slaves, and acquire land.

And the ethnic cleansing that was the Holocaust might not have been quite so successful if the "Christian" teachings had not allowed the average European to feel that the Jews were Christ killers (The Christ killer belief may not have been the motivation for the H. but it was certainly a foundation upon which the other motives could take hold)

[theredpen]

104. 8 to 50 million?

The entire population of Europe didn't even hit 50 million until the 1400's (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pop-in-eur.html">ref). Even killing 8 million women between 1100-1300 would have risked depopulating the continent, so I have no idea where you got that ridiculous figure.

Whatever the case, they are excluded when I specify "other people." The people killed by the Inquisition were "in-group" — they had to be, otherwise they couldn't have committed heresy. Ideological tyrants have an unfortunate (but self-defeating) habit of purging dissenters within their own population. This was such a purge. Religious ideologies aren't the only ones that do this.

Then you have the genocide and enslavement of countless "heathens" in the North and Central and South American land masses - simply because these Native Peoples stood between the white man and his need to explore for gold, have slaves, and acquire land.

Are you suggesting that if these people had (somehow) been Christian they wouldn't have been killed for their gold? As far as enslaving people, the Catholic Church forbid slavery as did many Protestant denominations. That's where there are Southern Baptists instead of just plain Baptists — the American Baptists split over the morality of slavery. Some slavery apologists like to claim that the contemporaneous theology permitted slavery and thus the slave owners shouldn't be judged by modern morality. That's a big fat hairy lie; there were plenty of Christians at the time pointing out that slavery was wrong.

And the ethnic cleansing that was the Holocaust might not have been quite so successful if the "Christian" teachings had not allowed the average European to feel that the Jews were Christ killers (The Christ killer belief may not have been the motivation for the H. but it was certainly a foundation upon which the other motives could take hold)

Yeah, well, there's that. It's been pointed out, however, that Martin Luther, father of the "Reformation" was considerably more influential German antisemitism than were the Catholics. Catholic nuns risked their lives to smuggle weapons to the Jewish resistance in the ghettos because they were the only people who wouldn't be searched by the Nazi guards; they didn't do that because they hated Jews.

[truedelphi]

113. PBS in the San Francisco area had a TV documentary titled

Something like "The Women's Holocaust" and this epic detailed the suffering of women during the times of witch hunts.

In some places EVERY SINGLE WOMAN was killed - there are at least two German towns where that occurred.

So since women are generally 50% of the population, yes, the numbers would be high.

If we take your numbers that are referenced - we see that a sequential total of 47 million people lived between 1000 and 1450 in Europe. So eight million would be roughly one sixth of that number.

The Inquisition targeted outsiders as well. For instance when Mary took over as Queen of ENgland after her father King Henry the VIII died, she was encouraged by the Inquisistion forces of Rome
to go after the Protestants.

And Jewish people all over Europe were targeted. In Holland many artists choose as their theme "Herod's Slaughter of the Innocents" not just because they reflected on this Christ era event, but because of the contemporary slaughter that occurred as the Inquisition waging war on Dutch Jewish and Protestant families - entire families.

The Easter tradition of eating ham comes about because the smell of ham cooking labelled you as a Christioan - while you cooked your ham and celebrated Easter your Jewish neighbors were commanded by their religious laws to cook and serve lamb for Passover - so simply by going into people's homes over the Spring Holidays, soldiers could tell whether they could slaughter or ignore the poeple seated and eating there. (This Information I learned when studying the Inquisition in Spain.)

[theredpen]

114. So, you don't really know where these numbers come from

I do: someone's fertile imagination. I found an estimate in a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt">Wikipedia article and it's at most around 70,000. I hadn't thought to Google on "The Women's Holocaust" until you brought it up.

The Easter tradition of eating ham comes about because the smell of ham cooking labelled you as a Christioan

Huh? Eating ham at Easter is one of the remnants of the pagan festival of Bealtaine. Meats that had been cured and stored during winter were consumed in celebration of the fact that fresh meats would be available. Pigs are a staple stock animal for European tribes and have both masculine and feminine regenerative connotations in pagan symbolism, making them significant in Spring equinox and Summer solstice celebrations.

This Information I learned when studying the Inquisition in Spain.

I'd get my tuition back.

On the subject of the Holocaust:

And Jewish people all over Europe were targeted.

The Nazis gained control of almost all of Europe, so this would be an obvious side effect.

[truedelphi]

115. Article from a Sandra Miesele says this:

"Since the Enlightenment, rationalists have liked to cite witch-burning as a prime example of medieval ignorance and religious (usually Catholic) bigotry run amok. (Leftists today still denounce it as a cynical plot by the strong against the weak.) Writing history that way was simple: Historians catalogued horrors, disparaged religion (or at least someone else's religion), and celebrated the triumph of science and liberal government. The history of witchcraft seemed a settled issue in 1969 when Hugh Trevor-Roper published his classic essay, "The European Witch-Craze of the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries."

But a clamor of new voices has since reopened the controversy. Members of the growing neopagan revival-200,000 strong in America today-claim witches burned during the great witch-hunt as their martyred forebears. Last year, a consortium of pagan leaders demanded a special apology from Pope John Paul II on the Jubilee Day of Pardon. They mourned a "pagan Holocaust" of nine million secret nature-worshippers exterminated by Christians 500 years ago under the Inquisition."

I don't think that John Paul apologized - but during his tenure the Church did offer forgiveness to Galileo!!

[theredpen]

117. If the self-proclaimed spokespeople for pagans insist on making up bogus statistics

They shouldn't expect an apology for them.

9 million? Didn't happen.

[okasha]

116. The medieval Catholic Church in general and the Inquisition

in particular not only did not massively target women for practicing witchcraft but denounced belief in witchcraft as a heresy. The sixteenth and seventeenth-century witch craze was heaviest in southern Germany, Switzerland and Scotland. (The latter because the Protestant James VI/I had an obsession with, and fancied himself an expert on, the subject.) You may be confusing campaigns against heresy, which were real and bloody enough, with witchcraft prosecutions.

The Spanish Inquisition was a separate institution from its Roman/Papal counterpart and functioned largely as a secret police force and a means of transferring property from the accused to the crown. Its targets were not witches--see above--but heretics and alleged secret Jews and Muslims.

[DeSwiss]

139. While I won't address the OP....

...since I happen to think that religious-beliefs could be considered a form of mental illness, I will disagree with your statement that:

"The historical record has amply demonstrated that religion is not a motivating factor for the worst atrocities in history."

The historical record certainly shows that the Abrahamic religions, in all of its manifestations had been central to giving the justifications and authority used to engage in mass-killings throughout history. The bible itself is replete with these justifications.

And then there's the little discussed Papal Bull of 1493 and "The Requirement."

Excerpts:

"....we therefore are rightly led, and hold it as our duty, to grant you even of our own accord and in your favor those things whereby with effort each day more hearty you may be enabled for the honor of God himself and the spread of the Christian rule to carry forward your holy and praiseworthy purpose so pleasing to immortal God. We have indeed learned that you, who for a long time had intended to seek out and discover certain islands and mainlands remote and unknown and not hitherto discovered by others, to the end that you might bring to the worship of our Redeemer and the profession of the Catholic faith their residents and inhabitants...."

"....where hitherto no one had sailed; and they at length, with divine aid and with the utmost diligence sailing in the ocean sea, discovered certain very remote islands and even mainlands that hitherto had not been discovered by others; wherein dwell very many peoples living in peace, and, as reported, going unclothed, and not eating flesh. Moreover, as your aforesaid envoys are of opinion, these very peoples living in the said islands and countries believe in one God, the Creator in heaven, and seem sufficiently disposed to embrace the Catholic faith and be trained in good morals. And it is hoped that, were they instructed, the name of the Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ, would easily be introduced into the said countries and islands."

Which brings us to The Requirement. After the Papal Bull of 1493 granted approval for the takeover of the lands discovered by Columbus and his successors, Pope Alexander provided the Conquistadors the following words as a means of absolution for any wrongdoing or sin associated with their murderous acts which they later carried out against the aboriginals -- in the name of the Lord. Typically, after discovering an island and encountering a tribe of Indians new to them, the Spaniards would read aloud (in Spanish) one version or another of the following:

"I implore you to recognize the Church as a lady and in the name of the Pope take the King as lord of this land and obey his mandates. If you do not do it, I tell you that with the help of God I will enter powerfully against you all. I will make war everywhere and every way that I can. I will subject you to the yoke and obedience to the Church and to his majesty. I will take your women and children and make them slaves. ...The deaths and injuries that you will receive from here on will be your own fault and not that of his majesty nor of the gentlemen that accompany me."

So between the Papal Bull of 1493, the slavery, rape, murder, and theft of their homelands, I would say that history not only doesn't exonerate the Church, but rather provides the prima facia evidence of their moral bankruptcy and complicity in all these acts. IMHO

DeSwiss

[wryter2000]

58. No psychologist/psychiatrist in the world would call them insane

Bush's psychopathology is narcissism, sociopathy, lack of empathy. That's not insane.

Not only is the implication that mental illness and religion are the same thing rude, it's also very sloppy thinking and language.

[skater314159]

133. so "some" behaviour entitles you to be an ass to all? nt

[Mend]

4. that wouldn't be accurate...hyper-religiousity can be a symptom of several

mental illnesses including OCD and Bi-polar disorder. I appreciate your sensitivity on the subject but please don't ask for an alteration of reality. If a person feels he has to say the rosary every time he has an "unacceptable thought" and he says the rosary 100's of times a day, that is a symptom of mental illness; he is not just very religious.

[TZ]

29. I'm not saying their aren't mentally ill people who aren't religious

what I am saying is that mental illness is a disease of the brain and like it or not it is NOT caused by religion. People can have religious delusions, but there are also delusions of grandeur, delusions of being a celebrity etc etc. Should we eliminate movies because some delirious people imagine that the actors in the movies are talking ONLY to them and thus they become stalkers?

[youthere]

5. Religious people are perfectly mentally stable.

I know, I know...I just couldn't resist.

[YOY]

49. Did you see the second episode they had her on?

A strong proud African American family had to put up with her. The husband was ready to knock her racist a** right the f*** out.

[roguevalley]

51. being mentally ill doesn't depend upon religion. look at stalin.

people were eating each other in the Ukraine because he decided to depopulate the land. religion is a philosophy that can be twisted by nuts the same as atheism and any other philosophy. I don't consider bush and his ilk religious. you have to love, help and forgive to be a christian and none of them do.

[TechBear_Seattle]

6. Hearing voices and believing in illusory reality is not mental illness?

If I said, with utter conviction, that a cheese danish told me to do charitable acts for the poor and needy, people would rightly think I was bonkers. But when someone else says that God told him to beat up homosexuals and then scream at women who want to use the Pill, he is is not bonkers? At least I can prove that the cheese danish exists.

[cosmik debris]

16. But that is not true of all religion.

The OP asked that we not equate religion with mental illness. You offered an example that is not characteristic of all religion. Isn't that really close to stereotyping?

You don't really believe that ALL religion is mental illness do you?

I mean, it is quite obvious that SOME religion is similar to mental illness. (semantic argument is inevitable) But you don't strike me as the kind of person that would claim that "Easter and Christmas Presbyterians" are mentally ill.

[TechBear_Seattle]

19. I will concede your point

As another poster pointed out, much religion can be relegated to the realm of superstition. Observing a superstition is not, of itself, a sign of mental illness.

[endarkenment]

20. The OP asked us to stop making any comparisons.

Sorry, no can do.

[cosmik debris]

22. You don't have to say everything you know.

In fact, decorum requires that you refrain from saying some truths. You seem to be rejecting decorum out of hand. I suppose that is your right, but it also seems to give permission to others who wish to reject decorum and say that you are behaving like an *******.

[TZ]

31. Then you are insane. But that has to do with your neurotransmitters!

It has NOTHING to do with religion or the bible. Goodness TV shows can make people insane, give them delusions but nobody says we should ban all TV's because it makes SOME people delusional!
Its the old correlation and causation..the old eating ice cream causes crime thing..... Trust me, I have met many religious folk and while I think some of their beliefs are irrational and illogical its a faaar step from that to insanity.
In fact to be human is to be irrational and illogical most of the time.

[Rydz777]

7. Good post, Turtlensue. Mental illness is indeed a serious

matter and should not be part of political polemics or psychobabbling.

[cosmik debris]

8. At the very least, we should specify exactly which illness

Neurosis or psychosis? There are almost as many mental illnesses as there are infections. But there is a clear difference between paranoid schizophrenia and neurotic attachment to your favorite blankie.

Of course, once you have presented your diagnosis, it would seem appropriate to present your credentials for making a diagnosis.

[endarkenment]

21. As DU is a peer reviewed board for publication of

essays associated with the APA, your point is correct. No wait, your point is totally insane.

[cosmik debris]

23. And your point is consistent with mental illness

But I won't tell you which one. :)

After all, there is no point in me justifying my diagnosis. And if I can slander you without providing a basis for the insult, so much the better.

Thanks for playing!

[Bitwit1234]

9. We see bush's action every day. While

not up close maybe like you deal with your relatives or friends, we SEE WHAT DELUSION is. And no matter what anyone says....SOME TYPE of religious fanatics are mentality delusional and that's a fact. Maybe not all but enough of them are that way in this country to make people think they all are.

I hope you find a way to help the members you have.

[roguevalley]

52. bush uses the facade of religion to justify his world view. if you take

a look at what he thinks he believes and what he's supposed to believe as a christian -- forgive, love, help-- then he is as delusional about that as he is about everything else. don't equate this kind of fucker with those of us who have read and understand the responsibilities of what being this way actually means.

[jgraz]

11. Absolutely. All you have to do is to show why religion is not a mental illness

From my experience, religion seems to have many characteristics of mental illness: submersion in delusional ideation, dissociative disorders, dogmatic adherence to pointless ritual, acting against one's self interest or the interests of one's family, obsession with death, sexual dysfunction, etc, etc, etc.

Before pressing your case, you may want to take a look at a definition for Delusional Disorder:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder

Delusional disorder is a psychiatric diagnosis denoting a psychotic mental illness that involves holding one or more non-bizarre delusions in the absence of any other significant psychopathology (signs or symptoms of mental illness). In particular a person with delusional disorder has never met any other criteria for schizophrenia and does not have any marked hallucinations, although tactile (touch) or olfactory (smell) hallucinations may be present if they are related to the theme of the delusion.

Wikipedia lists several types of delusional disorders, some of which should sound very familiar:

Delusional disorder may typically be one of the following types:

• Erotomanic Type (see erotomania): delusion that another person, usually of higher status, is in love with the individual.


• Grandiose Type: delusion of inflated worth, power, knowledge, identity, or special relationship to a deity or famous person (e.g. see Jerusalem syndrome)


• Jealous Type: delusion that the individual's sexual partner is unfaithful (see delusional jealousy).


• Persecutory Type: delusion that the person (or someone to whom the person is close) is being malevolently treated in some way.


• Somatic Type: delusions that the person has some physical defect or general medical condition (for example, see delusional parasitosis).

A diagnosis of 'mixed type' or 'unspecified type' may also be given if the delusions fall into several or none of these categories.

Of course, religion does have one feature that separates it from your generic, run of the mill psychiatric disorder: it's highly contagious.

[Ian David]

18. What can possibly be wrong with building your core identity around beliefs which have no evidence?

:sarcasm:

[TZ]

33. let me ask you this..

Are you a vulcan? Do you behave rationally and logically 100% of the time? Nobody does. Belief in a higher power while maybe illogical is not insanity. How many people on this board hold beliefs that aren't rational? Alot. You too I bet. I do. Boy like at things like love and other emotions that make people believe things and cloud their judgement (especially those who stay in abusive relationships because they "love" someone). Is it irrational you bet. But clinically insane. Nope. And I think you and most of the others who disagree probably have never met anyone mentally ill before or you would not be jumping to this conclusion and making this stereotype.

[Ian David]

36. I agree with you, and that is not the point I was making. n/t

[jgraz]

41. The criterion is not behaving irrationally

It's continuing to hold irrational beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. People often point to love as an example of an irrational belief but nothing could be further from the truth. Love may be intuitive and non-verbal, but it is always based on concrete evidence. The old "prove your parents loved you" saw is easily done (assuming they actually DID love you) by showing evidence of how they cared for you, their statements of love and pride in you and their observed emotional states when you were with them.

On the other hand, let's say you believe your boyfriend loves you. Except that he hasn't spoken to you in 5 years, he's married to someone else, has 3 children and he's taken out a restraining order against you. Would that qualify as delusional, or just another example of faith?

[More Than A Feeling]

13. Humor and depresssion might not be linked but being a comic

is a profession, and that and depression could well be linked. Sure, depressed, religious people speculating about a relationship between their depression and their religion is anecdotal, but nobody claimed it was science.

[sinkingfeeling]

14. You are correct that 'mental illness' is serious, but I will always believe that

those religious extremists have a severe mental problem; be it chemical or a missed wiring of the brain. I think that in time, researchers will discover a link to something within the brain and those people who become 'constrained' by their religiosity. Some people are predisposed to accept religious dogma while others reject it based on logic and science. I do not think it is caused by being 'raised' in a religious setting since many of us were brought up in church attending families. Many of us started rejecting religion in our childhoods as our brains developed and we were exposed to the real world.

[Birthmark]

15. There is no way around the fact...

...that religion is irrational. That doesn't automatically make it a mental illness. I think that any religion that ignores or contradicts known and observed phenomena can be correctly construed as a mental illness. Some are obviously serious, some no more a mental illness than hanging a horseshoe on a garage or barn, open side up, for good luck.

But even in the case of severe religious contradictions of reality, I doubt that it's helpful or persuasive to call religion a mental illness.

[Ian David]

17. There is compelling evidence that religiosity has an organic component, just as mental illness does.

I'm not saying that all religiosity is mental illness, but a compelling case can be made that EXTREME religiosity is a mental illness.

Just as cleanliness is not a mental illness, but compulsive hand-washing IS a mental illness.

[HamdenRice]

25. Good post. I entirely agree.

You make the point that mental illness is a disease that has physical causes, such as neuro-chemical imbalances.

Some on this thread can't seem to wrap their minds around the idea that a person may believe something that is empirically wrong, even preposterous, but that doesn't make them mentally ill.

Some people believed that Americans would be greeted with sweets and flowers in Iraq. To most thinking people, this was a preposterous idea and has been proven so. In colloquial terms, people might call this neo-con idea "crazy." But the neo-cons who made this argument were not mentally ill.

Interestingly, the law has a concept called "delusion," which the militant atheists may be trying to get at. In other words, surprisingly, the law defines a delusion in some contexts as an incorrect idea that a sane person holds against all reason and evidence; but the person who holds the delusion, is nevertheless legally sane. The concept is used in wills; if a person has a delusion, for example, that his third son hated him, and disinherits the son, a court may set aside that provision of the will while finding that the will writer had capacity (was sane) for all other provisions of the will.

Unfortunately, in the psychological context, the word "delusion" is usually associated with schizophrenia, a severe mental illness that makes people hear and see things (delusions) that aren't there.

[Goblinmonger]

28. I actually enjoyed reading your post

until half way through you used "militant atheist" and I stopped reading. Why do you need to catapult the propoganda like that?

[endarkenment]

30. its ok to hate atheists and scientologists.

How I get lumped in with Tom Cruise without getting a Kate Hudson as a compensatory companion is beyond my comprehension.

[Goblinmonger]

32. Yeah, I want a Kate Hudson

even with her being a crazy catholic, it would be a good thing.

This was meant to be sarcasm/satire in response to previous posts by theredpen. I am deliberately trying to portray that attitude which I have previously indicated I do not think is pervasive on DU. Notice that this "hidden" note was included in the original, i.e. no edit tag.

[PassingFair]

123. Kate Hudson is a "Jew-Buh"

(Jewish-Buddhist)
Or at least her mother is....

I think you mean Katie Holmes, who is Catholic.

[Ian David]

37. Probably for the same reason they're on my ignore list. n/t

[HamdenRice]

40. So what word would you use?

Clearly there are a variety of atheist positions represented on this board:

1. I personally don't believe in god, but if you do, that's cool, and I've known or heard of some pretty cool religious people like Martin Luther King, Mahatma Ghandi, Bishop Desmond Tutu, Rabbi Michael Lerner, and Professor Cornell West. Reasonable people can reasonably disagree about something as big and mysterious as the nature of existence. (NB, this might sound agnostic, but it isn't.)

2. I don't believe in god, and anyone who does is simply empirically wrong.

3. I don't believe in god, and religion has had a devastating effect on society, and is a social force that needs to be actively combatted, especially through ridicule and derision.

4. I don't believe in god, and anyone who does is so clearly mentally ill and deluded that they should be medicated and confined to a mental institution.

If you agree that these different views exist here, what word would you use to to describe category 4, which the OP is criticizing. Why is "militant" offensive to describe category 4? Seriously?

[endarkenment]

44. who is proposing (4)?

don't light a match near your post, it is full of strawmen.

[HamdenRice]

91. Did you read the OP?

A few DU r/t denizens have argued that religious people should be committed to mental institutions and medicated. That is what the OPer is reacting to.

[endarkenment]

103. Really?

"4. I don't believe in god, and anyone who does is so clearly mentally ill and deluded that they should be medicated and confined to a mental institution."

I don't really get that from the OP's post. Please point me to where the OP said that. Instead I got it from your post where you have made that claim. I have never seen the post here that says (4) or anything close to (4) and I rather suspect that if that post was written it was not stated with serious intent.

[northernsoul]

60. #3 overstates the position

I believe that religion has a profound, powerful impact on human civilization. I believe that impact is frequently negative. I believe that to the negative effects of religion are co-extensive with the premises of religious dogmas being unquestioningly accepted. Therefore, I believe for the sake of human progress, religious dogmas need to be critically examined and evaluated. I think that ridicule and derision are frequently counter-productive to that end.

[varkam]

92. Who's stating number 3? eom

[northernsoul]

101. I'm referring to post #40

which seeks to reduce the spectrum of non-believers' positions vis-a-vis religious belief to four discrete positions.

[TZ]

34. clarification

Religion and belief is not logical or rational. But that doesn't mean its insane.
If anyone here knows anyone who behaves perfectly logically and rationally all the time I would sure like to meet them because I have never met anyone like that.
I think there are some facets of religion that are attractive to some of the mentally ill (the fanatics and the terrorists could be indeed naturally sick people who find the beliefs feed perfectly into their world view) but I doubt very much the belief itself makes one ill.
There are many types of delusions in this world and everyone has their trigger. Some by religion, some by what they see in the media, some by extreme egomania and some by individual people. But the point is that to blame relgion and faith, when so much of our life is based on taking things on faith--ie I vote because I BELIEVE I make a difference, no matter that I am part of a large majority in my state and my individual vote really in the large scheme of things makes little difference is just plain wrong and counterproductive.
If you think religion is irrational then the best way to counter that is to spend your life trying to behave in a rational, logical way. Going around saying large groups of people are insane because they believe something you don't is not the way to accomplish this

[Evoman]

35. I'm with you.

I have way too many friends and loved ones who are religious, and I just can't get down with this "religion is mental illness" crap. I have met religious people who I believe went off the deep end and may have become mentally ill, but I'm certain its got more to do with brain chemistry than ideas you hold. Religion is not a mental illness...its just bullshit. And there are a LOT of people who believe bullshit, but it doesn't mean their crazy. And not all bullshit is religion, either.

[Marrah_G]

38. I just put those people on ignore

If they are coming to an R/T forum and feel the need to pitch insults at a good portion of the room simply because they believe differently then I have zero interest in seeing anything they have to write.

It's like dealing with a badly behaved child. Since it isn't mine, I can simply walk away and soon enough I can no longer hear the badly behaved child.

If your parents never taught you manners it sure as heck is NOT my job.

[mike_c]

47. on pitching insults....

Do you feel that acknowledging alcoholism as pathological-- mental illness-- is "pitching insults" at alcoholics? That accepting depression as mental illness insults sufferers of depression?

I think just the opposite. Acknowledging that irrational and damaging beliefs or behaviors might be pathological is the first step toward providing relief for those who suffer from such delusions. It's not insulting. Quite the opposite, IMO.

[Marrah_G]

95. There are delusional religious people and delusional athiests

If it somehow makes you feel superior in knowing that you have all the answers and that 90% of the world are just delusional fools then you go with that. I don't need relief from my beliefs, no matter how mush YOU believe I do.

There are lots of fundie christians out there who think I need to be de-programmed (relieved) of my beliefs. They want to save me! They want to show me the RIGHT way to think.

Hmmmmm..... sounds an awful lot like what you posted. I place you all in the same category.

[mike_c]

97. I was once married to an alcoholic...

...who insisted that she didn't need any help, thank you very much, because she liked her life just fine the way it was. That sounds "an awful lot like you posted." I respected her choices, and watched them destroy her. Should I have intervened before she damaged herself so badly?

Religious beliefs are damaging the world in more ways than I can enumerate here. How much death, destruction, misery, and suffering results directly from religious conflict? On an individual level, religion prevents people from seeking the truth about the universe around them by substituting irrational, supernatural, and often damaging myths about cause and effect. How does that differ from the self delusion of my alcoholic ex who believed that her's was the best of all possible worlds as long as it provided her with lots of avenues for self destruction?

Not long ago 99.9 percent of the people on Earth KNEW beyond any doubt that the world was flat. Most people knew that life emerged spontaneously from rotting detritus, that malaria was caused by bad air, and that disease was divine punishment for moral lapse (or a test of moral fortitude, depending on one's perspective). Delusions are delusions, no matter how widespread they might be or how many people might agree with them. The fact that a majority of folks hold religious beliefs has absolutely no bearing on the truth of those beliefs-- it simply provides them with herd comfort.

[Marrah_G]

98. We probably agree on many things

Especially about how damaging some religious organizations have been to the world. Unfortunately your insistence on calling myself and my family mentally ill will stifle any real discussion. Our faith is a good thing in our lives and does not cause harm to the earth or others. Since your mind is so closed I have nothing left to say. I wish you well.

[Dover]

136. Putting all the atheists on 'ignore' must have emptied the forum...lol!

I counted all the atheist threads here, and found only a few NON-atheists post. I assume people have found better forums in which to meet and discuss their beliefs.

[moggie]

137. It waxes and wanes

Traffic levels vary here: sometimes it's lively, sometimes not so much. At present, most people are more focussed on politics, and their energies are directed elsewhere on DU. And Marrah_G didn't say she's put "all the atheists" on ignore: perhaps she's more discerning than you give her credit for?

[Dover]

138. "waxes and wanes"...?

Well this page is representative of several days worth of posts and seems pretty typical.

Might be an interesting experiment just to see what changes it might bring volume-wise and a way to get a visual representation.

[Marrah_G]

141. It isn't about putting athiests on ignore- it is about putting asshoes on ignore

There are a handful of R/T people who are just so nasty and rude that I can't be bothered with them.

Some are Athiests and some are Diests.

When people cannot hold a civil conversation without becoming rude and insulting then I lose any interest in getting to know them.

[mike_c]

43. I disagree with you-- religion IS mental illness of a sort...

...but humans are not likely to generally realize that any time soon, or to act accordingly to help sufferers. I suspect we're hardwired for supernatural belief, but that doesn't make it any more rational than if religion were a mass hallucination.

Not long ago illnesses like depression, alcoholism, and so on were not recognized as genuine diseases, but were thought to reflect personal weaknesses, personality flaws, moral failures, etc. The very notion that they might be pathological was dismissed out of hand.

That is still true for the suggestion that religious belief might reflect psychiatric pathology-- but I think it is nonetheless correct. The fact that so many humans share that pathology does not diminish the reality of the disorder, but rather it makes it harder for us to recognize it for what it is and organize the means to help those who suffer from religious delusions.

[mudesi]

45. Sorry, but in many cases it is

It may not be chemical in nature (though sometimes that is the case as well), but not being capable of changing your mind in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence in regards to several religious beliefs is a psychological and emotional problem caused by how one was raised. In fact, it's a form of abuse that people don't care to acknowledge.

The overwhelming feelings of guilt and fear people feel when they're confronted with the proof that their beliefs are false is the product of years of inadvertent child abuse passed down through generations. People may have good intentions when they raise their children, but the road to hell (if there even is a "hell") was paved with good intentions.

I used to think Jesus levitated as well, because I was raised in a Catholic household. It was extremely hard for me to let that go. I had to, though, if I was going to accept gravity. The cognitive dissonance that religious people experience is not a good thing.

[Pacifist Patriot]

50. You don't seem to be describing religion so much as ideologues.

[Hydra]

53. Don't call them insane then

call them bloodthirsty monsters. Does that make you feel better? Most people call them insane or irrational so they don't have to think about what their behavior really implies.

[Pacifist Patriot]

54. Thank you.

I have never cared for the assertion that religious beliefs are in essence mental disease. They are not. In fact, there is compelling evidence (at least compelling to me) that religion is an evolutionary adaptation. Evolutionary psychology and neuroscience have done a lot in the last decade or so to explain why human beings have religion.

Too often when I see people equate religion with mental illness they are usually describing ideologues rather than faith adherents. They are also ignoring mythos in favor of logos. I personally believe the human experience needs to provide a presence and a balance of both.

Religious impetus is not inherently evil or pathological. However, there are evil and pathological people who use religion to harm. Money isn't inherently evil but I would argue it can be used for evil purposes and a desire for wealth over the sancity of life is pathological.

As an aside: Here is something I find fascinating. The vast majority of our universe is composed of something we cannot even observe and we're just beginning to accept is out there (i.e. dark matter and dark energy). What implications does that hold for what we accept as scientific and anti-religious truth today? No clue. Just like thinking about it.

[badgerpup]

55. I've always considered it like glasses, you know?

Very few people have...or retain perfect vision throughout their lives, and so require some sort of correction to help them see.

One person's corrective lenses may not suit the next person (e.g., for a cheap thrill, try mine...20/600, 20/650 with an astigmatism :wow:).

You try different lenses until you find something that you can see clearly, so that what you are 'seeing' makes sense to you...and you go from there.

...and sometimes, you need to change your Rx because it's not working anymore. :shrug:

[FiveGoodMen]

61. So there IS a god for some people and for others there really ISN'T?

[badgerpup]

93. If there really is a god...

...and by that I mean a sentient creative force...it is so much bigger than that.
It has no need to be acknowledged, petitioned, feared, and placated in a certain specific way..."or else".

It makes no difference if people question or choose not to acknowledge its existence.
JMHO...

[FiveGoodMen]

102. I'll second that!

[wryter2000]

59. But, it's oh so creative and insightful, dontcha know?

:sarcasm:

[Odin2005]

62. IMO religion is better compared to dogmatic ideologies like Marxism.

Religions are simply a dogmatic ideology based on some claim over the existance and nature of supernatural realms and entities.

[lvx35]

63. Dogmatic religions are dogmatic ideologies, but not all religions are dogmatic.

The simple fact is you take members of a million groups...liberal American buddhists come to mind...And they are just not that dogmatic about their faiths.

[Odin2005]

65. Religion does not equal Spirituality, Religion is DOGMATIC Spirituality.

[lvx35]

66. Ah, but it does, that's the tricky part.

They are lose words, there are no hard and fast borders. Take the Sufis, in my opinion you won't find a more spiritual group, but they are an offshoot of Islam, totally connected.

[Marrah_G]

96. I would not call my religion dogmatic.

[lvx35]

64. Thank you. The equating of ideological dissent with mental illness comes strait from the Soviet...

...playbook. Most religious people have different ideas than atheists, and that's it. Some mentally ill people have religious themes to their illness, like "voices from God", but that has nothing to do with religion.

[smoogatz]

69. Plenty of religious people think God talks directly to them.

It's what charismatic religions are based on.

[lvx35]

70. I don't have problems with equating certain behaviors with mental illness,

even if they are considered religious, if they can be shown to disrupt the normal functioning of the individual. But when you talk about speaking in tongues, hearing voices, etc. in a controlled setting, its not mental illness; some people use entheogens in a controlled setting to have spiritual experiences, and though this can drive them insane at the time, its a controlled sanity limited in space and time, it doesn't disrupt their ability to go back to work and live a normal life when its done as most religious practices don't.

[smoogatz]

72. Lots of mentally ill people are functional.

Mental illnesses come in all shapes and degrees. People walk around with mild depression, anxiety disorders, phobias, and all sorts of other symptoms all the time--they go to work, pay their bills, hang out with their families, the whole deal. Yet we consider them mentally ill, and think it's important to treat their symptoms. But if you think God's telling you to take your kids out of the public schools and to give a percentage of your income to a TV preacher, that's perfectly normal religious experience, and suggesting otherwise is an insult to all religious people. You don't see a contradiction there?

[lvx35]

75. I see a difference there.

When a person suffers from mild depression, society only treats it as a mental illness when the person comes forward and complains of having a problem. Those who don't actually come forward and complain, and function fine, are left alone and not considered mentally ill. For society to actual come forward and declare you mentally ill without you doing it yourself, you have to be pretty disfunctional, and the religious folks don't fall into this category.

[smoogatz]

76. So if you're functional and don't seek treatment, you're fine?

I guess that was the argument that landed Jeffrey Dahmer in jail instead of in a mental hospital.

[lvx35]

78. In the eyes of mental health, yes.

Jeffrey Dalmer chose to commit crimes, he knew what he was doing. All criminals can't be classified as mentally ill.

[smoogatz]

81. You might want to read up on Dahmer and get back to me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer

[lvx35]

77. By the way, thanks.

I just read a story about a Pastor fucking his daughters. I think critique of religion is really needed at this point, and totally appreciate the fact that you are doing it. What's real and decent in it won't be damaged by critique or analysis.

[smoogatz]

79. My complaint isn't with religion, it's with the way religion is privileged

in this society over non-belief. Sometimes accountants fuck their daughters, too.

[lvx35]

84. Right, and I basically support you in that.

And looking at some of this stuff (yes, it makes me sick too) I am actually incredible grateful for people like Richard Dawkins challenging it, its about time. But I also worry sometimes about the form the critique takes. Classifications of large groups based on mental illness is something the Soviet union used to suppress political dissidents, so I think you have to be really careful with wanting large groups to be classified as mentally ill.

But really, given everything that's going and that story about the pastor, I see there are much more effective things I could be doing to make positive change than arguing with you. Have a good one!

[smoogatz]

67. I'm a little confused by your post.

This part of it, anyway: "I know religious people and while I may not agree with what they believe and even question some of their beliefs (yes- I know someone who claims to be able to speak in tongues) it is far from true delusional beliefs which if you want to put it in religious terms would be believing that Jesus and/or God talks to them and is telling them what to do. But that kind of thing isn't limited to religious beliefs thats for sure. " It's a long, convoluted sentence that seems to be saying that if you think Jesus or God talks to you and tells you what to do, then you are in fact delusional. If that's what you're saying, then it's your belief that most (if not all) practitioners of and believers in charismatic religions (Pentecostals, Charismatic Catholics, etc.) are at least mildly mentally ill.

Your post also seems to imply that all mental illness is somehow equal, and that's obviously untrue. The generic term "mental illness" covers an incredibly broad range of symptoms and phenomena, from mild neurosis to outright dementia and psychosis to schizophrenia to rare and exotic forms of soiciopathy, etc., just as "physical illnesses" come in a variety of forms, ranging from the common cold to liver cancer, etc. Saying that someone's religious beliefs are inexplicably irrational (and therefore possibly a kind of mental illness) doesn't in any way demean schizophrenics, any more than making light of people with colds demeans people with liver cancer. That seems obvious to me.

[TZ]

73. Here's what I am saying

there is something in religous beliefs I think that makes it attractive to certain mentally ill people to fixate on. Just like other mentally ill people fixate on celebrities. There are people that have delusions of religous nature and then there are people who have delusions of other types. I have met many religious people and although I think some of their beliefs are strange and irrational, they are not close to being true psychotic delusions. I think people of all types have illustions of all sorts including how we and others see us, but thats normal human behavior.
And no, I know mental illness are not all the same. But I have seen enough of the SERIOUS types of illness to be able to distinguish between having faith in something with no empirical evidence (something that is very common) and being truly delusional. The mentally sick religious types are the ones who think they are the messiah or are being told what to do. Take Jack the Ripper..He left clues saying he believed he was being told directly from God to cleanse society by killing prostitutes. But that was the form his mental illness took. It doesn't mean that everybody who believes that prostitution is a sin is going to go out killing them because God told them to.

[smoogatz]

74. What if God tells you to home-school your kids

or tithe to some TV preacher? Are you delusional, religious, or both? As I said in another post to this thread, lots of mentally ill people are reasonably functional, but we still consider their brain functions abnormal, and we believe they ought to be treated--even though their conditions are both common and non-debilitating. There are degrees of mental illness, just as there are degrees of religiosity. At what point does the merely irrational belief or practice become something we should think about treating? These threads always remind me of the old lady in my grandmother's nursing home who thought she was on a cruise. That's a good metaphor, in my view, for religious experience at its best.

[TZ]

80. I think if you think God is talking to you..

Yeah thats a form of illness. I have never ever met anyone who *thinks* God/Jesus talks to them. There is again NO causation with religion and mental illness per se. Its more the OTHER way..that there are things within religion that are attractive to certain types of illness. I personally believe a lot of the more zealous practicioners of religion are probably mentally unstable people. But certainly since I know plenty of scientists that also are religious to some extent, I would not say that they are mentally ill at all.

[smoogatz]

82. That's just not true.

There are major Christian sects that believe God speaks to people directly, and manifests his presence through specific, visible phenomena like speaking in tongues and faith-healing, among others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_movement

Are they crazy, or just religious?

[TZ]

83. so based on the actions of SOME

you want to say all religons are mental illnesses? I do know what a sane person thinks and acts like and I can tell you by far most practicioners are sane. Even if not...thats a chemical issue and nothing to do intrinsically with the religion itself. Unless of course you happen to be a religious cultist under the sway of ONE sick person..like Jim Jones. But by far the majority of believers are as sane as you and I and you can make of that what you will.

[smoogatz]

87. Like I said, to me most religious experience looks like mild delusion--

the nursing home patient who thinks she's on a cruise. It's pleasant, it's comforting, and in many cases it's an improvement on reality. And there's no point in trying to talk people out of it--they just get agitated. But the difference between the cruise delusion and the cult follower drinking the Kool Aid seems like a difference in degree to me, not a difference in kind. Both are the result of similar and apparently irrational belief systems.

[PassingFair]

125. What about people who think THEY are talking TO god?

What about people who think they AFFECT things with their prayers?

Like the lady who takes credit for getting you a job, because
she "prayed on it", and you GOT THE JOB?

Isn't that not only delusional, but narcissistic as well?

[JerseygirlCT]

68. Thank you Turtlensue. It does get pretty tiresome nt

[More Than A Feeling]

85. If you genuinely think that god told you to murder people

you're pretty delusional. If you believe god spoke to you directly through a radio, or the old meatloaf in the fridge, you are delusional. There's a big difference between that, and just believing in god in the abstract, or believing and saying god spoke to you because the subculture you are in expects that of you, or believing and reinterpreting life events to claim that they are from god while keeping it rational in other respects.

[TreasonousBastard]

86. Apparently, some people cannot. I don't know...

why they have to be so adamant about it, though.

[TalkingDog]

88. You say crazy like it's a BAD thing.....

Like.... Craaazzzy Man (snaps fingers)......
http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/2003/april/index.php?ft=sapolsky

Low Latent Inhibition Plus High Intelligence Leads To High Creativity:
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/001684.html

I have very low latent inhibition, high intelligence and am creative. Also I am seemingly "psychic" because I am able to pick up on all those cues that the high latents miss.

And some scientist suggest that basically we're all psychic:
http://www.livescience.com/health/050427_mind_readers.html

Yet, yer scientist types...and you KNOW who I'm talking about.... will insist that there is no such thing as psychic ability. The same way they will insist there is no GOD. Those FACTS are part and parcel of the skeptic's arsenal.

There is that utter dogmatism among the skeptics that insists that things HAVE TO work a certain way or SHOULD work a certain way. Those dogmatists: a) are not very intelligent. They have small minds that fail to see the possibilities in a given situations or circumstances. b) really don't matter in the long run.

The mind is a marvelous thing. Feelings of spirituality are most likely as chemically based as depression or mania. And if spiritual feelings did not serve us in some fashion i.e. the Free Thinkers article, we probably would have shed them long ago as a natural by-product of evolution. Yet we still have them. They may be vestigial. But that makes them no less real or important.

Let the scoffers scoff. Let the skeptics skept. Let the scientists argue until they are blue in their collective faces. I know who I am and I accept my crazy intelligence, my unconventional wisdom. The lot of them can burn in a non-existent Hell (because I, myself, don’t believe in a personality that lives outside us = God) for all I care.



My Favorite Master Artist: Karen Parker GhostWoman Studios

[varkam]

89. I agree.

I think religion has very little to do with mental illness insofar as being religious causes mental illness or that it is mental illness in and of itself. I think it is also counter-productive to both the purposes to mental health and productive discussion to claim otherwise.

On the first count, I think equating religion with mental illness simply obscures the issues at hand. On the second, it is a rather vicious ad hominem attack given the regrettable stigma that is still attached to mental illness. Consequently, when that charge is made the discussion tends to break-down into a series of bomb-tosses with nothing being accomplished and everyone getting pissed off.

Thanks for the post. K&R.

[saltpoint]

90. Bill Moyers is a Baptist minister. I don't believe he is mentally ill.

But Pat Robertson is also a minister, and I think a strong case could be made that he is a few shredded hymnals shy of a glossolalia hoedown.

They are of starkly different temperaments yet technically are both spiritual. Moyers' model does not inspire anyone to consider that he suffers from a thought disorder.

Robertson, on the other hand... etc.

Emanuel Ax is a pianist.

Jerry Lee Lewis -- also a pianist.

I prefer the Ax model to the Lewis model, the Moyers model to the Robertson model.

[Marrah_G]

99. Some people think saying half the forum is mentally ill is a great way to open communication

There is an entire thread where theists are being called clinically insane repeatedly. It is offensive and it is insulting and in no way enhances communication. In fact it does the opposite. If the goal is to have an Atheist only R/T forum why not just use the Atheist group forum?

[Realityhack]

111. Problem of terminology/Degree?

I think one of the main problems in this discussion is the degree of irrational behavior and conviction that exists for someone to throw out a lable of 'insane'. I say its 'insane' to invade Iraq. But that doesn't mean people holding the viewpoint that its a wonderful idea are diagnoseably insane by Psychological standards. OTOH in common useage I might say they are insane.

Many specific religions and religious belifs are extreamly irrational. And some of the descriptions in the DSM appear carefuly crafted to avoid religion being labled as insane by deffinition. But I can see people claiming in a less scientific way that particular religious behaviours are insane. "God told me to move my family to Kentucky so I did" might be labled as 'insane' even though it may not qualify as diagnoseably insane and many religions support or even encourage these types of behaviors. So I don't think all compairisons should be off the table.

It would be better however if people defined the terms they where using a bit more, and attempted to differentiate degrees of meaning and use more precise terminology. Dawkins spends many pages defining what he means by God and religion before saying it is a social ill. There is a reason for that.

[Exiled in America]

118. If it is, then Obama, H. Clinton, Edwards, Kerry and Bill Clinton are all mentally insane.

[Exiled in America]

119. If it is, then Bill Moyers, Martin Luther King, John and Bobby Kennedy were all insane.

[ZoltanZ]

120. +++ Accidental duplicate deleted +++

+++ Accidental duplicate deleted +++

Z

[ZoltanZ]

121. PLEASE stop equating religion with mental illness

>>As someone who struggles with depression and anxiety on a daily basis... I really get tired of the comparison.

I sympathize with your feelings of exasperation. I too struggle with depression and anxiety, but I have felt much better since I realized that my religion was indeed a form of mental illness. I can't say what will make _you_ feel better, but please don't take away my freedom to reject invisible spirits, eternal life, and gods who cruise the universe, peeking through walls in search of folks who might be enjoying sex outside of marriage--whatever 'marriage' happens to mean on various planets.

>>I do think that equating religion and mental illness has no place in this forum or anywhere else

I respectfully disagree, although I believe it's more appropriate to say that mental illness INCLUDES religious beliefs and practices. Further, I would not make religion or atheism part of the Democratic platform. It's hard enough just to get any two Dems to agree on _anything_.

>>It demeans the seriousness of mental illness as well.

Not at all. Religious zealots exhibit dangerous forms of mental illness. Some express their religious beliefs by flying airplanes into buildings, others by blowing themselves up in public places to murder bystanders. Still others murder medical doctors who perform legal abortions.

Some self-righteous religious crackpots have infiltrated our own (U.S.) government, where they impose their unique forms of mental illness upon the rest of us.

It's a serious issue. It needs to be discussed.

[varkam]

124. I think you might be misreading the OP.

I can't say what will make _you_ feel better, but please don't take away my freedom to reject invisible spirits, eternal life, and gods who cruise the universe, peeking through walls in search of folks who might be enjoying sex outside of marriage--whatever 'marriage' happens to mean on various planets.

I didn't get that sense at all from reading the OP that she wants to take away your freedom to believe whatever you want to. Whether or not you believe religion to be a form of mental illness is your own matter. What the OP was trying to do was to keep it out of here. And, by the way, the OP is an atheist.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[zonmoy]

122. when religion is sane. I am ok with it.

but what is sane about believing nutty things like creationism or that being gay means your going to hell. or even worse forcing such insanity on others that no longer wish to partake in such madness.

[saltpoint]

126. If much good can come of one's being inspired to be kinder to others

than people often are, then of course it's unfair to blindly attack the source of the inspiration.

On the other hand, board certified shrinks often are at a difficult crossroads when confronted with patients who are "religiously preoccupied," or who assert that they speak with God.

There remains the thorny issue of whether "belief" -- whether or not it is Constitutionally sanctioned -- is part of the make-up of some people's thought processes and occurs unbidden in the psyche. That said, I personally do not believe that Jewish males of the 1st Century BCE were trans-human.

There are those who sincerely and nobly seek to emulate the tenets of the ministry of Jesus toward a common good, and then, on the other hand, there are those who invoke the image of Jesus, like a cheap stage prop, to lead movements against a library book or a film or play which they find unsettling. That's at the very least a power play, and it throws most of the tenets of Jesus' ministry into instant imbalance, and imbalance is the sign on the entrance door to much of that religious preoccupation.

[heidler1]

127. To me, its never been proved that Christianity is the source of inspirations.

I believe that random acts of kindness, that we see, are driven by intelligent selfishness that most people develop wherein they would like the world to be a kinder more gentile place and see the need to contribute their share to that end.

[saltpoint]

128. I'm cool with that, heidler1, but was just saying that no matter the

source of the inspiration, it is a higher act when it is genuine than by the time it gets to Jiim Dobson's office!

[heidler1]

129. Dobson's hatefulness proves to me that he is incapable of reciprocal kindness.

How can he simultaneously believe that we are created by a God who could decide to develop a breeding scheme that produces all of these so called mistakes and then also believe in hating the sexually affected victims of these mistakes for being there as though it was self determined. He can also ignore that certain chemicals can and do distort the birth outcomes.

[saltpoint]

130. Dobson's is a dark poison. Have you seen the bumpser sticker that says

"Jesus called -- he wants hie religion back." ?

I think of ol' Jim Dobson's misappropriation of text when I see that bumpersticker.

[heidler1]

131. We have a whole crop of people in leadership positions that are using religion to con their follower

To me Bush has done more to destroy faith than anyone and Dobson is a close second. The faithful followed those creeps and look where it lead. Jim Jones was way down the list and even believed it himself, but Bush and Dobson play self protect so they are safe, complete ass holes. The only good thing Bush did was prove to most people that he is warped so they better look elsewhere for help. Both John McCain and Mitt R. so love the hold that the Republicans have on the still deceived Christians that they refuse to admit that Bush is warped.

[saltpoint]

134. Yes. The manipulation lever is going to need all new parts once this

current crop of Republicans are done over-using it.

I hope the Democratic nominee has the sense to invite Bill Moyers into some sort of role in the new White House next year. He's a Texan, a Baptist minister, a crack journalist, and a sturdy scholar -- and a liberal. I'd give the man his own office and ask him to serve as Senior Advisor on Politics and Culture.

[Deep13]

132. I do not suppose religious people are mentally ill.

I have noticed that the reverse is usually true.

Dawkins justifies his use of the word "delusion" in his book. The definitions he cites all have to do with holding beliefs in the face of overwhelming, contrary evidence. That sounds like religion to me. Granted, there are other definitions that rely on mental diseases or defects and those do not apply to most religious people.

p.s.

Asking why some religious people are depressed is a valid question. If being close to god fills one with joy etc. as many religions claim it does, then that excludes the possibility of a religious person being depressed or whatever.

[PassingFair]

135. Sorry, I've been thinking about this. Exorcism is definately....

a delusional "rite".

I think people who buy into demonic possession are mentally ill.

The "church" supports and has rules for this type of ritual.

Mental. Illness.

Sorry.

I have problems with other specific "beliefs", but
this one.....no way is this not ...

:crazy:

[Marrah_G]

140. I just put assholes who say shit like that on ignore- They aren't worth knowing.

[and-justice-for-all]

142. Well there has to be some reason why so many think that..

they have invisible friends, right?

[MedleyMisty]

143. I have an officially mentally ill brother

His belief in religion showed up at the same time as all his other symptoms - it's definitely not something that he grew up with. No, he didn't believe in religion until he started waving a loaded pistol around and yelling at all of us and believing that he needed to hide in my closet from whoever was coming to get him.

Sorry, but I will continue to call hating other people and wanting them to live by your archaic rules and your puritan morality and supporting the bombing and torturing of people who believe differently than you and wanting your myths to be taught in public schools insane. Mass delusions are still delusions.

Also, this isn't a professional board. I think we can be allowed to talk in colloquial terms here.

And yes, I know that there are liberal and mostly sane people who also believe in religion and who knows, maybe it does inspire them to love rather than hatred. But the fact is that it inspires most of the species to hatred and cruelty and destruction and that we're not going to survive much longer if we don't get rid of it now that people can throw nukes at people who disagree with them over religious myths.

Or if not get rid of it at least somehow take the bite out of it and make it so that it doesn't make humans think of each other as the Other and less than human and okay to torture and kill and so that it doesn't retard our scientific progress or lead people to make myth-based morality into laws that affect everyone, not just those who believe in the myth.