How can I tell if somebody is really a Christian?

[northernsoul]

I ask because I seem to being getting into more conversations where my liberal Christian friends will dismiss somebody else who has self-identified as a Christian, and whom they disagree with, as "not actually being a Christian."
Is there actually a way to know whether or not somebody is a Christian, other than by how they self-identify?

[hobbit709]

1. If you go around telling everyone

how much of one you are, the chances are pretty good that you ain't.

[cyborg_jim]

2. Short answer: ask Yahweh

Long answer: you can't really. What a Christian is can only ever be by mutual agreement between two parties - such is the nature of language and how we decide what to call things. If someone is going to call themselves a Christian then that's about the best you can do.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

17. I believe one of these parts doesn't exist so I should believe there's no such thing as a Christian?

Sounds loopy. Do you believe there's no such thing as a Muslim?

[cyborg_jim]

28. You don't get the point. Language is a mutually agreed convention.

What is a Christian? Ask ten different Christians, get ten different answers.

Same for most other things - they're inherently ambiguous because there is literally no universal yard-stick with which to measure them against.

So if I decide to believe there is no such thing as a Muslim then I can do so. It's unhelpful sure, but it's sure possible.

That's why it is so very important for there to be consensus on meaning - there is no inherent meaning to the terms, we have to give it the meaning. So things get less ambiguous when you ask, "are there any Catholics," simply because it is easier to parametrise what a Catholic is.

The term itself, ironically, has been devalued by Christians themselves merely by fracturing their beliefs into so many different sects.

[cpamomfromtexas]

3. By Their Fruits You Shall Know Them---Inspect the FRUIT

That disqualifies many Republicans who claim to be believers- by the way. They fall into the false teacher category as mentioned in the bible

[trotsky]

9. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And the right-wing Christians point at the liberal ones and use the "by the fruit" thing too - claiming that the left's permissive attitudes toward abortion, homosexuality, and secularism are the "bad fruit."

Sorry, it's just never going to be cut-and-dried. A Christian is someone who claims they are one, and that's the only thing we can know for sure.

[Democrats_win]

19. I can't tell you how many times I HAVEN"T used that verse because of what's implied.

It really is a great quote because it says that by what they produce, we will know if they are any good. Look at the fruits of George W. Bush: failure after failure, 9/11, war, lies, and corruption.

We need to get a Thesaurus to find a better word.

[trotsky]

22. And the right sees "failure after failure" of Democratic administrations.

They blame 9/11 on Clinton.
They opposed Clinton's wars in Bosnia, Haiti, etc.
They point to his lies about his sex life.
And so on and so on.

You're going to see "bad fruit" whenever someone does something you don't like - whether you're liberal or conservative.

[Democrats_win]

29. Good points. Hopefully, people will realize how badly Bush has screwed up.

Clinton showed contrition for the Monica thing while bush remains arrogant and when he does say anything, it is insincere.

[northernsoul]

31. For those who haven't figure it out by now

what hope is there that they ever will?

[cosmik debris]

4. I wonder the same thing for a different reason.

In my part of the country Christians are pretty scary people. If they were more clear about which ones I should be afraid of, it would be nice.

[ThomCat]

5. As far as I'm concerned

if someone says they are a Christian then they are.

People nitpicking over who is or is not following Christianity has 2 problems.

1. It implies that there is some group of people somewhere to really do practice christianity perfectly, and only they are christians.

2. It absolves christianity and christians of every sin, crime or tragedy that has ever been committed by christians in the name of their christianity because the guilty are suddenly, retroactively not really christian.

[Vincardog]

6. By their acts shall ye know them

[northernsoul]

20. I think Mahatma Gandhi did a lot of good acts

does this mean that he was a Christian?

[Vincardog]

36. Does it matter?

[northernsoul]

39. Not to me, but apparently it does to a lot of other people

A lot of Christians don't want to acknowledge that many of their co-religionists are bad people and therefore argue that those people aren't actually Christian, which I find confusing.

[Vincardog]

47. I do not give mush credibility to what "lot of xxx" say. The OP asked how to recognize

"Christians". I just went to the expert on such things and looked to see what JC said on the subject. He said "By their acts shall ye know them".

AS to if Gandhi was a Christian the answer is no.

That does not make him BAD in my mind. There are SOME PEOPLE who insist that there is only ONE WAY to heaven and that is their way.

To those people I say I expect to see Gandhi there a long while before I expect to see them there.

[Solon]

50. Didn't Jesus Christ say the only way to salvation is through himself alone?

If so, doesn't that mean YOU aren't the "True Christian", what with NOT following his word and all that.

[Vincardog]

52. If you have to believe that there is only ONE way to salvation to be a

"True Christian", I AM NOT ONE.

[zonmoy]

62. why would he or any sane person

want to be associated with christians or much of any other theophillic religion.

[moggie]

41. So a sinner can't be a Christian?

If you're a Catholic, and every Sunday you have some rotten fruit to confess to, you're not really a Christian?

[greyl]

45. Not according to those Christians who believe they are without as much sin.

Good question.

[BOSSHOG]

7. By their deeds and actions

It is extremely pathetic if someone has to tell me they are a christian.

A good standard reply: Don't tell me you are a christian, let me figure it out for myself.

bush, cheney, dobson, robertson, falwell, haggard, foley and on and on and on are NOT CHRISTIANS.

[SidDithers]

57. Sure they are...

they might not be nice christians, but they're as much a christian as anyone else who claims to be a christian.

Sid

[thereismore]

8. only God knows for sure. nt

[GreenPartyVoter]

14. I'd like to rec this answer. Best by far :^)

[badgerpup]

10. Not really...

...seeing as how the term "Christian" is being re-defined as "Someone who believes exactly as I do on all counts."

One person may claim to be a Christian, but they don't agree with somebody else who makes the same claim, so Person A will say that Person B isn't a Christian...even though they both have the same 'faith'...e.g. worship the same god.

Why is this so important? Just curious...

[heidler1]

37. Some people dislike pretense to the point of claiming not to be a Christian, but

will still defend their right to be thought of as just as good of a person as all most all Christians. Christians seem to believe that if I admit to being an Atheist then I'm also anti-humanity. This causes a lot of the argument of who among us is the nicest person? The person who thought of "Judge not, lest you be judged as you judge" deserves a lot of credit. However this notion is not practiced very much by either Christians or non-Christians IMO.

[kirby]

11. Your friends are ignorant...

There is no 'litmus' test. I would say your friends are probably not very Christian is they are so narrow minded. Since religion is based on associating oneself with a belief system, its not possible to 'prove'. With all the various denominations, Christians don't even know how to define themselves. Thats the problem with religion, its close to impossible to have a rational discussion about it, because its not based on something rational, but faith in a belief system.

[GreenPartyVoter]

12. Watch how they act and listen to what they say. Pretty much if someone has to say

"I'm a Christian" that sets me on edge because usually it's followed up with "And that's why I won't rent to gays" or "That's why I won't go to Las Vegas" or whatever.

But ultimately it comes down to what your definition of Christian is. For conservatives it tends to be that the Bible is a literal truth and that the only way to get to heaven is to accept Christ's death as a sacrifice in your place. For liberals, none of the above necessarily applies, and they are looking at Christ's life philosophy more than His death and resurrection.

Really, it is sad that we have become so exclusive, but in truth I think this originated from the Conservatives and we liberals have taken it on as well. I cannot tell you how many times I have been told that I am not a real Christian simply because I do not think the Bible is the dictated word of God, and to be honest it's irked me so much that I sometimes dish it right back at them. :(

Intolerance is such an ugly thing, isn't it?

[saltpoint]

13. They come in many flavors.

One takes one's chances.

[Democrats_win]

15. "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

John 13:35.

Note that this has important implications.

[northernsoul]

24. So the real Christians are people who love other Christians?

If so does that mean that Christians who dismiss other Christians as not being truly Christian are themselves not Christian?

I'm reading "one another" to refer to the "disciples" the writer of the verse is addressing.

[tularetom]

16. I think you have to throw them in the water

If they float they're a christian, if they sink, they aren't.

But if they spend hours telling you they are a chirstian, they probably aren't.

[MindPilot]

21. I have a born-again goldfish!

Last Sunday he floated to the top of the tank. But now that he's a Chistian, he's really boring and smells bad.

[badgerpup]

54. well, then he passes the 'smell test'

...apparently a lot of 'holy men' who professed themselves to be really super hyper-Christian shunned soap and water, since it 'glorified the flesh'.

Don't get me started...:freak:

[State the Obvious]

18. So....then you truly believe Jesus was the Prince of Peace.....and NOT war?

[kestrel91316]

23. You shall know them by their fruits.

[northernsoul]

27. What kind of fruits should I be looking for?

What do I know if somebody is doing enough good things to be considered a Christian, or enough bad things to not be a Christian?
What shall I make of a guy who does a lot to help the poor but also cheats on his wife and drinks after drinking? Can I tell if he is a Christian or not?

[demosincebirth]

25. I would say by what they say and do.

You would be the sole judge of that.

[northernsoul]

30. What do "real" Christians say and do that I can recognize?

Is there some kind of sure-fire sign that somebody is a Christian?

[demosincebirth]

34. One thing true Christians don't do is constanty remind you (and everyone else)

what good christians they are.

[Parche]

26. Krishtuns

They have 2 belly buttons if they are 'Born Again'..........:rofl: :bounce:

[More Than A Feeling]

32. Short answer: no.

Slightly longer answer: There is no such thing as an "Real Christian". That's just an ideal, and nobody can agree on exactly what the characteristics of that ideal are.

Longest answer: I think that people do this because they don't want to believe that people who do things that are abhorrent are actually associated with them. They would cast the miscreants out of the community if they could, because they are giving the community a bad name.

[northernsoul]

35. I think your longer answer is right

I suspect that the best way to deal with an embarassing co-religionist is to deny that person is actually a co-religionist. Going one level deeper, I suspect this defense mechanism helps one avoid the more troubling issue of why so many "bad" people are attracted to Christianity and find it to be such a helpful accessory for their bad deeds.

[More Than A Feeling]

51. I have another answer after reading Chris Hedges' latest effort

Setting up an impossible standard (the "real Christian") creates a lot of negative feelings about not being able to live up to it. One way to relieve those feelings is to put down other's whom you perceive as screwing up worse than you. Then you feel better about yourself, and you hope to look good in the eyes of others by making the comparison.

[JerseygirlCT]

70. That sounds about right

Which is not to say there's no responsibility to speak out about those hurting others, even in the name of religion.

But the argument about who is a "real" Christian is just silly, and pointless.

"Christian" isn't some badge of honor, anyway. It's an obligation. Most of us using the name don't often meet that obligation entirely.

[hughee99]

33. No true Scotsman logical fallacy

Argument: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Reply: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge."
Rebuttal: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

As for how to tell, I guess you'd have to ask your liberal Christian friends who is one, if for the purposes of your conversation they are the final arbiters as to who is a Christian.

[toddaa]

38. Microsoft Certified Christian

Any idiot can put Christian on their resume and bluff their way through an interview. That's why you, Christian, should take the Microsoft Certified Christian exam and be able to stand out from your peers.

[Evoman]

40. I have a real problem with this "by their fruits" bullshit argument.

I know this has been brought up again, and again, and again ad naseum, but its sort of irritating. It automatically puts good people under the christian umbrella, and bad people under "something else" or "false christian". So if I do good, and am polite, and generally help the world, am I christian? No, thats bullshit. I'm still an atheist. I hate even being called "christ-like" or "Christian-like", because there is this assumption that being a Christian is "automatically good". When a christian does well in science, its not like we call him "atheist like" or any such bullshit.

I think words should ACTUALLY mean something, call me crazy. And I think I have a pretty good definition of Christian: one who professes belief or worship in Jesus Christ. Bam, simple. No other meaning to Christian....that way, there can be Good Christians, greedy christians, cranky christians, asshole christians, smart christians, idiot christians, etc. The good thing (from my persepective anyways) is that nobody can really TELL another person that they are christian or not...each person decides for themselves. A person who says they are christian is christian (unless you catch them, say, praying to buddha or something, I guess).

Christian not = good

Christian not = evil

[northernsoul]

42. It's some very convenient logic...

in that it allows one to quickly deny any affiliation to embarassing co-religionists. However, the logic doesn't seem to hold up on several counts.

1. If bad people are not actually Christians, how good does somebody have to be before we can be confident that they are one of the "real" Christians? Last time I checked, we're all morally flawed to some extent. How thoroughly corrupt does one have to be before we can be certain they are not a genuine Christian? Inversely, how virtuous does one have to be before we can be certain that they are one of the "real" Christians?

2. What accounts for why so many people who self-identify as Christians apparently aren't truly so? If they aren't actually Christians, what are their true religious beliefs? What made a public show of allegiance to Christianity so attractive to these people?

3. What are we to make of the avowed non-Christians who are morally decent? Are those who have considered, and rejected, Christianity, somehow secretly Christian (unbeknowst to even themsselves) because they behave morally?

[More Than A Feeling]

44. *claps and whistles*

Well said! :headbang:

[Rabrrrrrr]

43. Jesus said "They shall know you by your love".

All it takes is for someone to claim to be Christian, and that's it - one really can't deny it.

But one CAN make the judgment as to whether they're a good Christian by their actions.

And those actions are to be judged by love: feeding the hungry, taking care of the poor, supporting the weak, and fighting for the oppressed.

[northernsoul]

46. Do the good Christians go to an extra-special Heaven?

Seems like Jesus should give the good ones some kind of bonus incentive.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

48. Technically, anyone who confesses Jesus Christ is a Christian, BUT

Jesus himself says that all the Law and the prophets stem from two commandments: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and your neighbor as yourself."

Someone then asks him, "Who is my neighbor?"

At that point, Jesus tells the Parable of the Good Samaritan, the story of a despised outcast who helps an injured stranger when the "respectable" religious figures refuse to. After telling the story, Jesus asks his listeners,"Who was neighbor to the injured man?" The listeners are forced to admit that it was the one who helped him. Jesus then says, "Go and do likewise."

Love and charity, therefore, are not to be limited to co-religionists, because the Samaritans were considered heretics. Jesus also went beyond the boundaries of his own ethnic group to heal Romans and Phoenicians.

Now today's fundies (a relatively recent development in the history of Christianity) take a really skewed view of their faith. First of all, they emphasize things that are not mentioned in the Bible (abortion) or are mentioned tangentially in ways that are open to multiple interpretations (homosexuality). Second, they show a disturbing tendency towards an idolatrous trust in the Bushboy and an idolatrous nationalism. Third, they teach something that is directly contrary to the teachings of Jesus, namely, that God wants his followers to be rich. Points two and three are especially disturbing to mainstream Christians.

To answer the other question, no, Gandhi would not be considered a Christian, but according to Romans 2:12-16, he would fall under the "righteous Gentile" category.

[lastknowngood]

49. cut him in half and count the rings there should be 33

n/t

[Silent3]

53. The procedure is very similar...

...to determining if someone is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman_fallacy">a True Scotsman or not. :)

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. "Ye shall know them by their fruits" is for recognising 'false prophets'

Matthew 7:15-20

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:15-20&version=9

So, no, "by their fruits/acts" is not a way of telling 'Christian' from 'non-Christian' according to the Gospel apparently giving Jesus' words; it's about spotting those who claim to be prophets, but aren't.

[varkam]

56. I don't think you can tell if someone is *really* anything.

You just have to take them at their word. If they say that they believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, then that's good enough for me.

[beam me up scottie]

58. Just ask them to use their bible to support their contention that they are the real christians.

Really narrows it down, doesn't it? :eyes:

[rasputin1952]

59. I refer you to, "you shall know them by their works" which is not to say

that there is a necessity to work to get to heaven, but rather if the do as they Say, and if they really walk the walk.

Look at it this way, if someone claims to be Christian, doe they:

Give and receive forgiveness for wrongs done?

Do they condemn others, especially w/o empirical proof of guilt?

Do they help the poor w/food and clothing?

Are they empathetic?

Are they true supports of justice, or do they believe in retribution?

Are they violent toward others?

Do they treat anyone differently because of sex, race, sexual orientation or place of origin?

Do they stand up to tyranny?

These are just some of the questions one should ask when looking for a true Christian. Others bloviate and spew rhetoric, but pass over the hungry with an, "it is their own fault." There are some who would like to do something, but fear they don't have the assets. The answer to this problem is that there are plenty of things that could be done that cost little to nothing. Taking time to work in a food pantry, giving a few hours at a shelter or taking an invalid to a medical appointment are just some of the ways one can help.

Watch what they do, quietly and unobtrusively, you will gain great insights in the character of a person by doing so...:)

[Igel]

60. A few points.

The word "Christian" has a lot of meanings, not just one. It's best to remember this, and not get overworked about this fact when the definition shifts mid-sentence--worry about the fallacy in the making, not the polysemy.

First, the easiest definition is how somebody defines himself. Or herself. Doesn't matter; they self-designate as Xian, they're Xian. We don't dispute a light-skinned African-American's self-designation, we don't dispute when a person who's 1/16 or 1/32 Native American says she's Native American.

Second, I've known and respected people that I considered Xians and who generally were miserable people. However, they started off as truly horrendous people, and had striven long and hard to become merely "miserable people". Meanwhile, I've known people who were more friendly and outgoing and who didn't change one iota over 15 years, and I had little respect for them. The same with intellect: If you're really smart, you can easily outdo a hardworking person of moderate intellect, but that doesn't count as "hard working" or "diligent". In my view, I have trouble calling the self-satisfied "Christian" (in a second definition), but don't usually say they're not. But in any event, it makes the "fruits" argument invalid, unless you have all the information--most people have partial information and think that qualifies them as Judge.

Third, Xians are those claimed by Christ. This is no doubt a set distinct from those under def. (1) and (2), but it's the utltimate definition for believers. This set includes people who do *not* self-designate as Xian. Under this definition, Abraham was Christian. (No stranger than Sa'udi editorials saying he was Muslim.)

[MistressOverdone]

61. A person who has been baptized is

by definition, a Christian.

Just leave it at that.

Whether or not they are a "good" Christian is not part of your responsibility.

[TreasonousBastard]

65. And we have a winner!

[Zhade]

63. They profess to worship Jesus.

There ya go.

[Meshuga]

68. That's my answer too

They profess to worship Jesus. Whether they are good or bad Christian it depends on the Christian you ask.

Ask a fundie and he/she will say that liberal Christians are bad Christians. Ask a liberal Christian and he/she will say that a fundie is a bad Christian. But that is just opinion because a Christian are the ones who profess to worship Jesus. Whether they are good Christians or not is in the eye of the beholder.

[jgraz]

64. throw them in water

if they drown, you know they're Christian.

[TreasonousBastard]

66. You can't. And more importantly...

why would you care to get involved?

I am assuming that you do not identify yourself as any sort of Christian and are confused by this parsing of the identities of others.

Rest assured that of the billion or so alleged Christians on the planet, few see any but themselves and their fellow sect members as True Believers, and are even wary of many of their fellow sect members. This is not particularly a problem with Christiantiy, but of human nature, and any large organization will see these random opinions and suspicions permeating it.

Just about any and every political or moral argument has been made with Biblical support from those who look hard enough to find such support. Think Christians should be pacifists? There's a verse or so telling us to go to war. For or against abortion? Verses there, too. It might be tough to find a passage approving of human sacrifice, but I have no doubt if it became popular, someone would dig one up.

So, when these friends and acquaintances talk of "real Christians" it is an internecine argumwent within the Chritian community and they would like you to take their side. Since it is probably as meaningless to you as arguments over "true" vegetarianism or communism or any other point of contention you are not personally involved in, just let it pass.

What you might want to be interested in, though, are not who the "real" Christians are, but who are those Christians who share to a great extent your own ideals and moral code.

[muriel_volestrangler]

67. Look for quotes around the word

That's a sure objective sign that they aren't really Christians.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x124075

[camero]

69. By what is in thier heart

It's not always apparent right away since many people like to put up fronts so they will hopefully be accepted by the world but after awhile you can truly see what is in another person's heart. Or to put it another way, thier spirit.

[Goblinmonger]

71. So, I've got my neighbor's heart

laying on my counter right now and I cut it in half. What am I looking for that shows they really are (were?) a Christian?

Sorry, just one of those moods tonight.

But somewhat seriously, how they heck do you know what's "in their heart." Kinda seems like "I'll know it when I see it." Not a very helpful definition and still subject to the same "no, you aren't a real christian" kind of BS.

[camero]

72. Thier actions are one of many things

How they converse with others, especially those who they think are lower on the totem pole of life, or the "heathen" if you will, and thier attitudes towards the world in general. IOW, they sort of act like Christ without the miracles.