Support for one's worldview

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

I was wondering how many of you have some support group of some kind where you can go and be yourself among people who share your worldview. If you do, please talk about it a bit so we can celebrate! If not, please tell what you would like to have as a support group.

This question is directed to all, but especially those whose worldview precludes the concept of God. It is meant to be a respectful way of understanding you better. As shown in the examples below, I better understand the support groups of the religious, and wondered about yours--a think tank, perhaps, or a scientific society? I really do not know, and was wondering.

Many religious institutions offer support for their members not only in a place to meet and share their views, but also in the social connections made. I know that there are Christian churches where members make sure the elderly of their church are called upon regularly--not to preach but merely to visit. My mother used to do this sort of thing when she was active in her church. I was a child at the time, and she'd take me with her. Interestingly enough, talk was rarely on religion-more of a "how are you feeling--we're thinking about you" sort of call. And many people have probably been in a church choir at some time in their life, and have fond memories of the beauty and friendships they made with their singing.

I know that since I have become a Sufi initiate, I have discovered that I never need be alone. Where there are Sufis, and even fellow Muslims who are not Sufi, I am made to feel welcome and at home. Can be going into a restaurant to have a meal--could be playing with my Sister's cats after I haven't seen her-or them--in years, and yet it feels as if we have just stepped out the door and returned.


I truly wish all of you have a support group that makes you feel happy and at peace.

[Book Lover]

1. As an atheist, there is a group available to me, but I myself would never join one

as I don't see the logic of it. Why socialize on a regular basis with people based solely on our "shared" lack of belief (the reasons for which won't be cohesive anyway)? I would rather have a different reason for socializing on a regular basis, like finding adults to RPG with, for example.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. See, I didn't understand this about you

So would you say that atheists in general tend to socialize with others based on things like sports, hobbies, etc, and not on mutual interest in logic and science?

[cyborg_jim]

14. Logic and science don't go hand in hand with atheism.

[Evoman]

16. True dat.

My cousin in law is an atheist, and he is a welder. He's neither very logical, nor does he know a whole lot about science.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. See, I'm learning a lot!

I guess I had that assumption from some of you posters, who I know like logic and like science as well. Can I hear from any DU atheists who are welders or lawyers or don't like logic and science? Love to get your viewpoint on all this.

[Random_Australian]

27. Ah, here we get to the problem of exactly who you are surveying.

Large amounts of people just believe in things simply because they had a family that did, and they are the group in which everyone is the same, regardless of religion. Another thing to note is that deciding to keep or leave the initial religious convictions that a person is taught is usually a sign of interest in religion, that is, people who don't care about religion rarely change their choice religion, and to bring this nicely to it's conclusion, it's also easy to see that people who don't care about religion also don't turn up in R/T.

Note: I've used religion in place of "religion or lack of religion" in several places, we all know what I mean.

But yeah, I'm one sciencey guy. And not so much logic as accuracy - that is, I learnt logic by finding what led to the most accurate conclusions, rather than learning logic itself, which would be dry and boring as anything.

Something interesting to note about that is that it gives a very different perspective about logic than you'd get if you saw it as a series of dry, formal rules: that is, it's basically alive, and now well learnt enough that you no longer need to go through the rules consciously; that is, it becomes part of your intuition.

That's R_A's fun fact for the day. :)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

30. Oh goody, you've piqued my curiosity!

So I think you are saying that I may be getting a skewed perspective on what atheists are because the ones who post here are, by and large, sort of sciency and logical, but that not all atheists are.

Ok.

Now, what's got me interested is your notion as logic being basically alive--what a fresh perspective! Wouldn't you say that all thought processes that are growing and developing and being used are alive?

And another thing you mentioned, intuition--please enlighten me on how it relates to logic. You see, from my perspective, intution and logic aren't really close together on the spectrum of thought. I mean, I don't use logic to tell me my cat wants in at odd times during the day; but I intuit it. I didn't use logic to tell me that my perfectly healthy grandmother was going to die soon; I intuited it, and she died from an accident.

[Random_Australian]

35. The analagy is that it soaks in.

The really interesting bit is that once you have a different way of processing information, that is, the rules that give the highest accuracy, different things become important in what you are actually seeing and hearing, giving rise to the famous ability of scientists to put reason above emotion; that is, an attempt to see things in terms of the actual information bieng presented, rather than what our social structures make of it.

This means that someone can be putting forth some argument, and while they might say "I took the tablets and I felt sooo much better and there is no way you can say they didn't do it" you really hear "mmmmm tablets were taken, and at some time later I felt better. I conclude that out of the many causes, it was the tablets. No reason for this is given" except that sounds kinda dopey in english. :rofl: Not that I speak any other language, but I do try not to think in english.

Now we get onto how it becomes part of your intuition: In exactly the same way you are not conscious of how you learnt language, you don't need to consciously go over how to process exact information; that is, you acquire the skill to actually read in it; it's a little bit like learning another language.

But how could I explain what this means for science? I wonder how I could ever convey what it means to me to look at the chemistry that is in front of me. Until I get to the end, it's not actually beautiful, it's not really like anything that we meet in normal life, but it is fast so much information in such a small time that if it were a stream it would pull you off your feet. It's not like that because I'm special, it's like that purely because it was built for doing things with great exactitude and speed. That's also why scientists use their own specific language, especially chemists.

Now, "Wouldn't you say that all thought processes that are growing and developing and being used are alive? "

Hmmm, we are using different 'alive's I think - I don't mean it has special energy, I mean that it has a direction given to it by how it reacts with the information given to it. In other words, it is alive because it uses a similar information interaction to evolution.

But yes, I have to say, when people say "but if the universe is made only of chemicals, that would make it cold and dead" I can never understand that, because all the logic is is a description of the world. And we all know, no matter how you describe something, it does not change what it is. :)

[Book Lover]

23. You singular or you plural?

If you are asking me personally, I socialize with folks based on a shared interest in the book arts, science fiction, and kids. My worldview may be informed by my scientific understanding of it, but it does not define how I form my social circle.

I feel I cannot speak for any atheist as an atheist but myself. And I would resent anyone who tried to speak for me in that manner.

[cosmik debris]

2. I don't feel a need for a support group

To me, my world view is self-supporting. It needs no assistance. There are very few who dare to challenge my world view, and their challenges are pathetically weak. They can offer no reason to change my world view so I don't give them a second thought.

I don't need to have my world view reinforced by a group of outsiders. It is self-sustaining. I sympathize with people who need support for their beliefs.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Do you have people you can hang around with

and be yourself though? That's what I was getting at. The social interaction, so you can keep your wits sharpened, as it were. From what I've read on the boards, some atheists have said that they have to stay "in the closet" about their beliefs when around co-workers, etc. And we've seen the threads about how the US would very likely not be ready for an atheist president.

For years I was a practicing mystic in a town of nice, churchgoing people who had no clue about my thoughts and concepts about reality. I couldn't find anyone with whom I felt I could speak without being at risk of censure or even losing my job. Through what I call grace, I was led to my spiritual path, left that town and completely changed my life. I just remember the isolated, lonely feelings I had back then and was wishing that no one here was having to go through what I went through--that there was a place you could feel at home.

[cosmik debris]

8. I have a circle of friends

but we don't support each other's world view, were just friends. We don't talk about god or spirituality or any of that stuff because none of us care. There is no discussion of things that don't exist.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. Good

you do have a circle of friends. That's what matters.

[Evoman]

17. You have friends??? You gotta be shitting me!

*snicker*

[cosmik debris]

22. Do my pet rocks count? N/T

[Evoman]

24. I was just kidding, cosmik.

And I hope pet rocks count, or I'm completely fucked.

[cosmik debris]

34. I'm not offended

But after sleeping on it, I'm a bit concerned about the tenor of some of this discussion. There seems to be an underlying implication that atheists are "troubled loners" and hermits who are socially isolated. I'm glad that this perspective is not offered with malice, and I'm glad that we can straighten it out.

[kwassa]

31. You seem to enjoy discussing things that don't exist.

as your participation here would attest.

Why don't you do it with your friends?

[cosmik debris]

33. My friends don't share my interest in woo-woos n/t

[Evoman]

5. Don't need one...

I have interests, but I have plenty of friends (most of who are not atheists) to share my interests. Science, I have colleagues who are scientists. Atheism really doesn't lend itself to social support....I'd rather talk to my friends (be they atheist or not) than a group of people who I have nothing in common with.

I make an exception for the whackjobs here though, since I feel like I know some of them rather personally.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. I take it from what you say

that either your friends don't discuss religion or don't care you are an atheist. I was under the impression from some atheist posts that some were badgered and shunned-guess they are the exceptions.

But thank you for answering. This helps me to better understand where you are coming from.

[Evoman]

7. My friends don't care that I'm an atheist...if they did, they would not be my friends.

One of my friends is a fundie christian...I think he does fear for my immortal soul, but he's let the whole thing go. I'm not badgered....mostly because I'm 6ft, 190 pounds, and have a glare that could make you shit your pants. And shunned...I could give a fuck. As long as they don't mess with me, and mine, I'm a cool cat. Also, I'm in sciences...so really, a prospective employer would be nuts to not hire me because I'm atheist. Especially since I'm not even done my masters, and I've already published twice, once as first author.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. Impressive

I can see that you have chosen a field where your worldview would not be a factor in hiring. Do you think most atheists tend to go into fields like this? Also I'm assuming you reside in a university town, and probably a city. I myself have lived most of my life in rural areas and small towns, where the social dynamic is different. Would you say that atheists that live in a rural/small town setting have it harder? I know I had a rep for being a "loner" because I literally couldn't find friends with which I could be comfortable. And as a meek, mild mannered elementary school teacher, I had to be on my best behavior--small towns are big on gossip.

[Evoman]

12. Hmmmm

"I can see that you have chosen a field where your worldview would not be a factor in hiring."

I didn't chose it because of that....I chose it out of interest, and the presence of certain opportunities.


" Do you think most atheists tend to go into fields like this?"

Maybe some, but that depends on the person. How many other atheists here are not scientists?


" Also I'm assuming you reside in a university town, and probably a city."

Yeah, city of about 200 000. Theres a lot of university kids in my part of town.

" I myself have lived most of my life in rural areas and small towns, where the social dynamic is different. Would you say that atheists that live in a rural/small town setting have it harder? "

I don't know....probably. I've never met any atheists from small towns, that I know.

"I know I had a rep for being a "loner" because I literally couldn't find friends with which I could be comfortable. And as a meek, mild mannered elementary school teacher, I had to be on my best behavior--small towns are big on gossip."

Yeah, I can imagine that would be tough. I don't know why people care so much about what other people do. I'm not by nature a gossip, and since I don't care about petty shit, I don't hear a lot of gossip either. Still, I don't think I would be afraid, even living in a small town. I do feel bad at people who tend to be meek, and in any case, I would probably defend people like you if we lived in the same small town. Because I can't stand that backstabbing, gossipy shit...

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. I'm glad your interest and opportunities merged

and it does indeed sound as if you are off to a rather stellar career.

If you've never lived in a small town, you have no idea how gossipy it can get. I read a post here a while back about someone who moved to a small town in Utah and was pestered by Mormon missionaries. Out of exasperation, he finally told them he was an atheist (though I don't believe he was-he was saying it to get rid of them because nothing else had worked). Anyway, starting the next day, he and his family were shunned. No one would talk to them! They finally moved away. I recalled that post and was thinking of a real atheist living in a small town and wondering what it would be like.

That was really nice of you would probably defend people like me. Always nice to know someone would be there for you. :)

[Random_Australian]

29. Depends on what you mean by 'rural'

if you mean American rural, I don't know.

If you mean Australian rural, it's a moot point because 1) There is no-one about, so you cannot afford to be choosy about friends. 2) It's Australia. We don't care about atheism.

Edit: And the gossip thing isn't really prevalent either - people are spread too thin! In other words, it's a little difficult not to talk to people enough to know lots about them. But you'd bever know their religion either - we just don't speak about it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

37. I do think it is an American phenomena

by "America" meaning USA. I'm not even sure that Canadians gossip as much as small town Yanks-the ones I've met weren't the gossipy type.

[Evoman]

40. Rural Canada is pretty gossipy too.

My girlfriend comes from a small farming community (her dad is a farmer) and she has told me a couple of stories. I've been down more than a couple of times...I remember once, I went with her to the supermarket to meet one of her old friends. Later in the day, one of the other farm families came for a visit and said they had "heard" I was around..lol. Also, the local newspaper lady (she writes for the 2 page newspaper that comes out biweekly) call my gf family (and other families) to find out if anything new has happened...they told me, quite seriously, that if they had mentioned my visit, it would have been in the newspaper!!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

42. well of course!

Visitors to Newton County are listed in the weekly paper, too. Thanks for the input about Canada.

[Random_Australian]

28. Ah, note the careful choice of friends. Atheists were talking about bieng

badgered by people who they had not chosen as friends; like family, coworkers, members of the public. That kind of thing.

But yes, underneath it all there are a fair number of people in society that don't mind being friends with people of all different religions, so despite all the accusations of stereotyping, I'm fairly sure that practically all atheists couldn't care less about what religion someone is unless they constantly go on about it. (I mean, I don't go down the street yelling "god does not exist", do I?).

And, I also have a very strong suspicion that practically all theists don't generalise either, but I might be generalising about that. ;) :rofl:

More seriously, when it comes to the accusations that go back and forth it has to be remembered that people often sound like they're much nastier than they are.

(Though I do wonder about this one guy who was in R/T before, whos comments were to the effect that they never speak of atheists, except to note the degenerative effect they have on western societies)

But that may just be an exception, I somehow suspect. :)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

38. the southern part of the US is rather strange

in this way. I moved from a large university town after obtaining my teaching degree and moved to a small town in the southern part of Illinois. One of the first things I was asked was if I had a church home yet--and the next was whether or not I was saved! At the time, I was a member of the church of my birth, but even so, the questions made me very uncomfortable--so you see this sort of intrusion is something that bothers theists, too!

When I changed my focus of spirituality to mysticism, I was warned that my job was in jeopardy because it wasn't Christian. I chose instead to move to a new location. I was wondering if any atheists who lived in a small town and spoke their views might have had problems with co-workers and even in finding friends if they moved to such a place.

[Random_Australian]

44. Ah, the person you want to speak to is Bmus then. Let's just say she has a LOT

of reasons not to like fundies. I mean more than the usual.

[MedleyMisty]

11. Thinking about myself and the replies in this thread

Is it possible that the majority of atheists are introverts?

Because I don't feel the need for any sort of group either. I have my husband, and that's all the social interaction I need.

Hmm - are there any real scientific studies on commonalities among introverts? Because I have theories about introversion being much more than just wanting and needing less social interaction, but I would like some proof to back it up.

So take this with a grain of salt because, like I said, it's just my conjectures. But it seems to me as if introverts are more likely to be moral endoskeletons and freethinkers. We don't need rules from an outside authority. We don't need to feel like we agree with other people or are part of some group. Our own minds supply us with everything we need. Like the old poem - "My mind to me a kingdom is".

Any other introverted atheists relate to that, or am I completely out on an ego-centered limb?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. Thanks for this insight

You can see from my opening post that my conjectures about you all was way off the mark. It would be interesting to see what other answers we get here.

[Evoman]

15. I don't think I'm an introvert, and I'm an atheist.

I think most people here would be freaked out if they met me, because I would probably bear hug them, and give em a big kiss. I can be...ahem...very South American sometimes, hehe. I also like hanging out with big groups of people.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. Look out for me, then

Sufis give TWO hugs every time they meet, one on both sides--twice as many hugs! And we don't mind kisses either!

[cosmik debris]

21. I've often been described as a "Type A Personality"

Of course that is subjective, but it doesn't seem consistent with introversion.

[Random_Australian]

26. Well, there ARE a couple of interesting correlations.

Now you have me wondering.... hmmmmm....

Look, before I proceed to the next bit, I just want to add the disclaimer that if you get offended with what I am about to say, you need to know more about what correlation is.

It's been long known the large correlation between things like atheism and ability in the sciences, and I wonder if this is going to turn out to be another piece of the puzzle.

Hmmmmm.

Food for thought. :)

[cosmik debris]

32. I'm sure you will never confuse correlation

With "cause and effect", but I like to interject that just to keep all minds open. There is always room for a "which came first?" discussion. But being first doesn't imply causation.

(This is not aimed at you R_A, but at those who may read your post.)

[Random_Australian]

25. Me? Well, for the atheism thing, no. None of my friends care in the least

about religion, so my group of friends (Fellow Adv. Science students, almost without exception) is made out of people who have very similar ideas about how the physical world works and kind of similar ideas about how social things out to work, (while we're not all lefties there is no extremists among us) even with a variety of religions. (though mostly atheist, I have to admit, it's just something you find with people who are very good at science for some reason).

But really, there is no set sort of groups; people are entitled to wander and talk as they please. In that way, a small group of friends is also a link to a much larger whole.

That said, I am part of a science society, and a physics society. But they're not something I attend very often. (and I'm part of some other societies as well but let's not get into that)

Finally, the only group I really need support from is my very favourite online group, the Democratic Underground Mental Health Support Group. The nicest place in all of DU. Calm.

It has to be said, in some people problems and experience with problems of the mind tends to give a certain very special, very rarely used ability to talk in a completely non-confrontational and utterly trustworthy way; that is, the ability to referee. In this context, referee means 'someone who can talk, without some reptilian response, to you about what you see and what reality is like'. For example, if someone was depressed, they would not respond with "What? You have plenty to be happy about! Why are you unhappy?" or something like that, they would understand and A) respond by talking about what you can do to keep yourself real, and B) take a little care that you don't become dependent on them.

And that is R_A's social network.

[Silent3]

36. I sometimes think a support group is needed...

...by other people to help them deal with my views. :evilgrin:

[More Than A Feeling]

39. Now THAT'S badass!

:headbang:

[toddaa]

41. Complete solitude away from mankind

Nothing brings greater happiness and peace than being in a remote wild area, away from all human contact. When I was a child living in Nebraska, my family would often spend summer weekends camping on the Platte river. Nebraska, as everyone knows who has driven on I-80, is a massive expanse of land completely unadorned what most people consider as beautiful scenery. I beg to differ. Sitting out on a sand bar on the Platte River, with nothing around you but wilderness and a massive sky that stretches forever, makes you feel really small. Especially at night, the bigness of the sky grinds your ego into dust until your self slips away and you just become the proverbial speck in the empty vastness of space and time.

That is how I find peace.

[PassingFair]

43. Atheists don't generally need "support groups" to buttress

"beliefs" that we don't hold.
We don't need/want to make sure
that others are buying in.

I feel in general that I am
"amongst my own kind", in
every situation anyway....
I believe that MOST PEOPLE are
basically like me and wish me
no harm.

Mutual admiration societies and
glad handing are not my bag.

:)

On edit:

During the 2004 elections, I attended some democratic rallies, and I
remember saying to my husband that this was probably what church-goers
must feel like "going to church".
All the "like-minded" dems "going to meeting" and all, but really, we
were all just people, trying to pry the chimp from his throne, and there
was nothing mystical about it at all....