Is there any point in posting at R/T any more?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

It seems that recently whenever an article is posted here, it devolves into arguments and snide remarks and even name calling between believers and non-believers. I have come to R/T in the past to find out about things dealing with religion and theology and have found that the discussion that was hoped for never got off the ground because of comments made and reactions to the comments.

So I'm asking--what can be done so that we can have genuine discussions instead of the old, stale rehash of belief vs. atheism? Is the only solution to abandon R/T entirely and only post at various groups?

[More Than A Feeling]

1. What kind of discussions do you wish were going on?

Taking a break from R/T can be healthy. I've done it for a year, and I've done it for a week, and each time I came back refreshed.

But honestly, I'm not sure what you are looking for. Why do discussions that result in argument and snide remarks displease you? To me, it says that people are interested and passionate, and I like that.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Because they get away from the topic

The article on the nun who works with gangs is a perfect example. Instead of talking about the nun's work and talking about her views, it turned into the usual same old same old. This is only the latest example, but there are others.

[More Than A Feeling]

4. I see that you were getting quite frustrated in that thread.

I've found that if you want to have a discussion directly on point, ask people a question which is sufficiently interesting, and to which the only responses possible that aren't complete and total randomness, are actual answers to the question. Like my "how large a part of your identity is religion/faith/spirituality" thread. Most, if not all, of the responses answered the question, including yours.

Posting articles is an invitation for people to discuss any part of the article they find interesting. Or you might get a dud which people don't want to discuss because no part of the article is interesting. Honestly, which is more interesting, "nun helps people" or "atheist converts, then becomes a nun"?

[Evoman]

6. C'mon Ayesha.

Look at that article from our point of you. Its not the damn article thats offensive...its a good topic for discussion. But you tell me what was the VERY FIRST THING posted....of all the bits and pieces of that article that Struggleforprogress could have quoted, why was the first and most prominent quote about how the nuns parents were atheist and "religious".

If you want to talk about a nun, and her experience in working with gangs, why even post that bullshit? it wasn't necessary for discussion. It was done to get rise from us! THE OP knew it would, and he did it anyways! And thats the problem I have.

But since your not f-ing listening to anything I'm saying anyways, whatever. You keep on going about how we cause ruckus' and ruin everyone fun.

[NMMNG]

10. Exactly

The articles often aren't topics for thoughtful discussion, they're posted for gratuitious digs at others.

Even when someone posts something for thoughtful discussion it's hijacked by others and turned into a major flamefest. Case in point: A thread about how atheists are persecuted in the US was being discussed by myself and another atheist. A theist entered the thread willingly and posted a comment to me. Then when I replied to that person s/he whined to me about how s/he was "sick and tired of atheists cramming their beliefs down his/her throat".

Where do we go from here? :shrug:

[Goblinmonger]

3. Of course there's a point.

Sure there are the "same old same old." That is going to happen anywhere. And if you don't think the atheists aren't tired of having people say the "same old" to them, then you are sadly mistaken.

But don't just focus on that. There are plenty of discussions here that provide insight into different points of view.

But don't forget that there is a lot of history. Both in society and and in here. Let's take the nun for example.

Societal history: Call me a cynnical bastard, but when I see an article about a "nun that was raised atheist" my bullshit meter goes off. Especially when that said nun then starts spouting off traditional theist memes that drive atheists nuts. You don't think that it is possible that this is just a crock that is being put out there to show how great theists are? Maybe it's not, but that was my first reaction.

R/T history: There are people in R/T that seem to make it their life's work to show that atheists are wrong. I know I am going to be biased in this regard, but I don't see the same for the usual group of atheists here. I'm not talking about the random person that comes in, but the solid core of us that post here. We usually only react. And the nun article was one of those times. I was put off by your comments as to atheists being as bad as fundamentalists. Does that mean that I thought you were speaking directly to me? No. Maybe I'm wrong. Does that mean that I put you on ignore? Hell no. You have lots of great things to say, though, honestly, I don't know that I always fully understand what you are saying but someone who makes me think usually gets my respect. Does that mean I think you are an evil theist? No. There are very few people I have ever really thought that about (what ever happened to the atheists favorite guy? you know, the one I had the "apostates go to hell" discussion with? Oh, the good old days).

You have to know that most of us on here that are atheists are not "out" to a lot of people in real life. We don't (and most would argue we CAN'T) discuss religion with people like this in real life. The consequences would be horrible in many regards. This is an arena where we can actually do that. In real life, many/most of us are pretty quite. trotsky and Evoman and I have all talked about that being the case in our personal instances. Do we sometimes go over the top? Sure. I do think that we check ourselves (again, I am speaking of the core that post here in R/T and not every atheist on DU) and let each other know publically when the comments are too much.

Take a break from R/T. I do every once in a while and it seems to help. You're cool and have lots to offer here. You're one of the "good ones." I think a lot of atheists in here would agree with me.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. thanks for the compliment

you know I'm not "out" about my faith--my boss told me in September 2001 that he'd never hire a Muslim.

I took a long break from DU a couple of months ago. Looks like I'm due to take another long break from DU again.

[Maat]

11. If you do take a break for awhile, Ayeshahaqqiqa,

please log on to check your PM's every once in awhile. I'd like to keep in touch.

I understand your point-of-view, I think; I've given up going into R/T to participate. It's just not my thing.

[Dorian Gray]

13. Ayesha

I'm fascinated about your "sect" (is Sufiism considered a sect?) of Islam. I know it's the mystical branch, but I know very little about the Sufis. Do you have any suggestions about a basic article or writings that I can read.

Also, maybe take a break from R/T without taking a break from the rest of DU. I'd hate to lose you around here. :)

[cosmik debris]

7. R/T is a very democratic forum

And like any democracy, sometimes the votes don't go your way. But the votes do represent the will of the participants in R/T.

You asked what can be done. It is simple. Cast your vote with your posts. Don't start or participate in any of the discussions that you don't like. If your vote does not carry the day, know that democracy is at work. It is not a crime to be in the minority.

[jgraz]

8. Are you kidding? There's more point posting here than most DU forums.

Where else can you actually debate fundamental disagreements between intelligent, moral people? Remember everyone on this forum is fundamentally a liberal liberal (well, most of us anyway) so we already agree on 90% of our world view.

Most of the rest of the threads -- the ones who don't mention John Kerry -- are pretty much preaching to the choir. Those are fun when you want to hear articulate people say what you feel better than you could yourself. But this is one of the few forums where we can actually talk to reasonable people who disagree with us.

[Goblinmonger]

9. Exactly. Go engage in an argument in GD

and see how you like it. The discourse here is at least intellectual in nature. You have to have a thick skin to post here and be ready to have your thoughts called to the mat, but, for the most part, you don't have to deal with responses to your post that degrading Ann Coulter with bigoted comments about her being a transsexual is just you being a "humorless asshole." Now THAT is "in your face" confrontation that is rude and disrespectful.

[trotsky]

14. No kidding.

The stuff here is absolutely mild in comparison. The difference, of course, is that it's religious beliefs being discussed - and lots of believers are totally unprepared for vigorous discourse on the validity of religious beliefs. They're accustomed to society's "kid gloves" treatment and unspoken respect for religion. Are there a few morons who come in and spout the "fairy tale / stupid believers / etc." nonsense? Yup. But note, they just don't stick around. After they've said their little soapbox piece, they generally fade away. Unfortunately those of us who remain get associated with the assholes and end up having to defend actions we've never done.

[Dorian Gray]

21. You have some good points, Trotsky

I do think that you (general you, not personal you, though it's probably happened to you!) do get associated with hit and run "fairy tale blah blah blah blahbitty blah-cakes" posters.

I also don't think that we're shy of the discourse, though there are certain topics that I may resent the challenge in. But I'm sure the atheists feel the same way. Sometimes we just want to discuss our spirituality. Share with others. And, to be honest, I don't always appreciate being challenged about it, particularly if it's a "how did you end up on your path" topic. Things too easily spiral out of control, though, and I do believe that people on each side get really caught up in semantics, harming the exchange of ideas. When we're throwing around dictionary definitions and arguing about one particular word, the whole topic gets lost. It happens on both sides, and many of us are guilty of engaging in such arguments.

[Dorian Gray]

12. I take periodic breaks from R/T, Ayesha.

Sometimes there is good discussion, but often it's a pissing match. I think that I am going to refuse to get involved in any. If something annoys me, I may point it out from now on and explain why, but I really don't want to fight. Various faiths, in a sociological way, truly fascinate me. I love learning about different cultures and religions. It doesn't always get done, but sometimes there are fascinating discussions here. (I do often go to some other forums where religious discussions are highly moderated and quite intelligent. When I get frustrated here, I will go to some of the other sites.)

[kwassa]

15. I notice that most of the responses so far here are from the atheists.

Defending their approach. Interesting. As a theist writing here, I usually feel vastly outnumbered, which makes it less interesting for me to participate.

I agree that discussions get diverted from the OP quite easily. I felt that way about the thread I started about the 250 clergy doing something postive against homophobia, which immediately came under attack as if Christians couldn't do anything positive and progressive.

The difficulty I have is that the gap in perception about how one side treats the other is the broken record that goes around and around and around in here. Each accuses the other of misbehaving and disrespect.

Comparing it to GD is not helpful, either, because being a smaller, more concentrated forum, it would seem that we could be better than that. Citing GD as a benchmark is to aim very low, I think.

[Goblinmonger]

16. Oh, I really feel sorry for you

that you feel outnumbered here. I can only imagine what it must feel like to think you are in the religious minority. It must be horrible. Fortunately for me, the United States is primarily atheistic and I enjoy the majority status.

Seriously, my fucking heart bleeds for you and your feelings of being "outnumbered."

The comparison to GD is dead on. People complain about how "mean and rude" it is in here. This is nothing on the scale of "mean and rude." GD is a good example of a forum on this same site where there is a lot of mean and rude debate. We are better than that forum. Unfortunately, so many theists are used to atheists not saying anything in society and when they come here put face to face with people who don't believe in any god the way the theists do. This is seen as rude. Well, as for me, I will not shut up. If you think that I am rude, I guess I'll have to learn to live with that.

[cosmik debris]

17. The OP asked "what can be done...?"

Did you have any contribution to make?

And you said: "Each accuses the other of misbehaving and disrespect."

Are your ready to be the one who breaks that cycle, or are you waiting for someone else to do that?

Hmmmm? What would Jesus do?

[kwassa]

20. I think I have quite a contribution to make.

And I have been making it, I think. You might disagree.

[cosmik debris]

22. But do you have an answer for the OP's question?

And are you willing to be the one who breaks the cycle?

[kwassa]

23. Certainly. How about you?

[cosmik debris]

24. I gave my response in post #7

I'm still waiting for yours. Are you willing to break the cycle, or are you going to wait for someone else?

[kwassa]

25. You are creating the cycle right now. Please stop.

And I already answered you, with "certainly", and your post #7 is completely doesn't answer me.

It isn't about democracy, it is about treating others with respect, whether or not one agrees with their opinion. This includes not mocking the beliefs of others, even if one finds them ridiculous.

This is not particularly addressed to you individually, simply an observation about behaviors that steer this group wrong.

[cosmik debris]

26. Yes you have an answer for the OP, but you won't tell me

What that answer is. Just "certainly".

Post #7 was meant as an answer to the OP's question about what can be done. i.e. vote with your posts.

And you still won't comment on who will be the first to break the cycle. I guess it won't be you.

[kwassa]

32. "certainly" is the answer.

[cosmik debris]

35. The question is what can be done and your answer is "certainly"

Brilliant! Why didn't I think of that?

[cyborg_jim]

18. I don't bitch and whine about the inequities of life

If your being cannot withstand the attack of your theology then you should not stand in harms way.

[NMMNG]

54. What is it about you

That makes you feel the need to constantly attack us? :shrug:

[kwassa]

19. The three responses to my previous post prove my point. Thanks.

[Desertrose]

27. Exactly, kwassa...

Unless one enjoys the same repetitive (& circular) arguments that have been going on here for about the last 5/6+ years ,it seems pointless to continue to waste time here.

I doubt minds will be changed by it all.....of course there is always that hope , isn't there?



DR

[Goblinmonger]

29. Since you made the claim of a circular argument

I would like to see where that happens. Please point out to me one of the circular arguments that are being made by atheists in R/T. I would like specifics please.

And have you possibly thought that the atheists in R/T would stop making the arguments if the same old theists didn't put forth the same old theist talking points? I think I can speak for most all the atheists in R/T when I say that we would LOVE to NEVER have to address the "atheism is a belief system" argument one more fucking time. Yet, people keep saying it even though it is explained quite clearly to them each time.

[redqueen]

33. Is it semantics again?

I see the "atheism as a belief system" in your post... and I think of Dawkins' point that you can't really be any more than an agnostic, due to inability to prove a negative.

So, if "atheism" is defined as a 'belief' that there is for a fact no god, isn't that a belief system?

Sorry... I really honestly don't mean to aggravate you by asking you to explain this once more... it's just that I so recently had read that point made by Dawkins, so... I'm curious as to how your take differs from his, if it does.

[Goblinmonger]

34. If you think this is semantics,

then, yes, it is about semantics.

Can you give me the quotation from Dawkins when he says you can't be more than an agnostic? Pretty interesting from a guy who claims to be an atheist.

I will agree that he might argue for weak atheism over strong atheism, but please don't confuse agnostics for weak atheists. It shows your ignorance.

[redqueen]

36. I would think there could be a more conclusive take

regarding semantics, but regardless... here's Dawkins' quote:

"Well, technically, you cannot be any more than an agnostic. But I am as agnostic about God as I am about fairies and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. You cannot actually disprove the existence of God. Therefore, to be a positive atheist is not technically possible. But you can be as atheist about God as you can be atheist about Thor or Apollo. Everybody nowadays is an atheist about Thor and Apollo. Some of us just go one god further."

I'm not sure what you mean by the terms "weak atheist" or "strong atheist"... so I can't really be confusing them with agnostics. Was it really necessary, though, do you think, to imply that I'm ignorant for doing so, before you actually know that that's what I'm doing? I could hazard a guess about what you mean, but around here that might get my ass chewed, and I've had more than enough of my fill of that around here, actually. Notice that this is not due to my inability to weather having my 'beliefs' questioned... it is only a desire similar as to what one has when crossing the street to avoid rousing a dog who enjoys barking at passersby.

Are those Dawkins' terms, by the way (weak atheist & strong atheist)?

[Goblinmonger]

38. Sorry I snapped.

Seriously. No sarcasm.

I'm pissed off at the attitude of others on here in the last few days and took it out on you. I'll make you a deal. I'll reread your two posts tonight when I am more relaxed and give you a non-snark answer.

[redqueen]

39. Understood and appreciated.

I look forward to your response.

[cosmik debris]

37. if "atheism" is defined as a 'belief'

Well, NO, atheism is NOT defined as a belief except by people who want to insult atheists.

Remember the term atheist is one created by theists to label and stereotype those with whom they disagree. And also remember that contributions to stereotypes are not tax deductible.

[redqueen]

40. Does it not logically require 'belief'...

since one can't prove a negative?

[cosmik debris]

42. Dis-belief requires belief?

That is a concept that I am unable to fathom (unless it was intended as an insult). Bald is a hair color, barefoot is a shoe style. I could go on...

[redqueen]

43. Yes, due to inability to prove a negative.

Since one can't prove a negative, believing in a negative requires a 'leap of faith', so to speak.

And no, it was not intended as an insult. Post 36 above quotes Dawkins' take.

[cosmik debris]

45. believing in a negative requires a 'leap of faith'

How about NOT believing a negative. What does that require?

How about NOT believing a positive. Are the requirements the same?

I'm not talking about believing, I'm talking about NOT believing. Saying I don't believe (any given idea) does NOT mean that I do believe the opposite.

[redqueen]

46. Aha... there's the distinction...

The crux is whether the person asserts that they don't believe there is a god or that they believe there is no god.

Atheism includes both views, so... it's sort of a wiggly word.

[cosmik debris]

47. I think I have been misreading you

But I think you see now why the meme: "atheism is a belief that there is no god" draws such ire and acrimony.

[redqueen]

48. I do indeed.

:hi:

[skepticscott]

51. On the other hand

One could say that atheism is the position that, having examined all of the supposed evidence for gods and all of the justifications and arguments people give for their existence, I simply find no good reason to believe that any exist, except in people's minds and imaginations. I'm just as much of an atheist about Yahweh as some people are about Zeus and Apollo, and they don't seem to find "proving a negative" in the latter case all that much of a stretch.

[cosmik debris]

55. Nice shot

I don't know if you have seen this or not, but I find it interesting. And it relates somewhat to your first premise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignostic

But I'm just a proselytizing Ignostic :)

[Goblinmonger]

28. Here's what I'm sick of

People that come into R/T and bitch about the atheists.

Yes, I will admit, that when a thread is first started and it is on the "Discuss" page, there are some rude atheists that will hop in with the "all religions suck" bit. But they scurry away just as quietly and quickly as they entered. And more times than not they will be called on what they do by other atheists or agnostics. The atheists that are the ones who are a "constant presence" in R/T are not like that and you know it. Yet you continue to react to all the usual suspects in R/T as if they are the drive by shooting ones mentioned first.

The only crime that the usual atheists in R/T are guilty of is actually have the nerve to say what we are thinking about religion. Just like you do. Except we aren't supposed to according to you and others.

I have never preached to you or anyone about atheism. I have never tried to convert you. Neither have trotsky, cosmik, dithers, evoman, BMUS, and a whole host of other people that I am sorry aren't coming to mind right now but are here in R/T a lot and, in my opinion, are really great people that would fight for your right to be a theists if you were under government attack. We just do not do the things you are talking about. Stop trying to intimate that we do.

And please, don't hide behind the "I never said all" meme because it is clear due to the number of times that you and others bring it up in here that you are talking about us. If you are talking about the others that hit and run, go bitch about them in GD because that is where they hang out. And good luck with that. You better toughen up your skin a hell of a lot more if you go in there bitching about the way you are treated because us "nasty atheists" in R/T will look like baby bunnies in comparison.

[Goblinmonger]

30. I now agree with you

It pisses me off when a thread is started and it veers off track onto something else.

Case in point:
There is a thread about where people's beliefs come from. The second post on that thread makes the argument that there are fundamentalist atheists. That post had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OP! Those comments were complete threadjack.

I especially liked when you told that poster to stop threadjacking OPs and to stick on topic.

Oh, wait.

You didn't do that. You told that poster that they had some really good points.

Of all the theists in R/T, you would be one of the last ones I would have thought to commit such hypocrisy. Oh, well, live and learn, Goblinmonger, live and learn.

[redqueen]

31. What can be done?

Raise your game. Do better, yourself. Lead by example. That kinda stuff.

[Evoman]

41. .............

:thumbsup:

[JerseygirlCT]

44. I wish I had the answer -- I've been feeling the same way

While it would be really interesting to have those genuine discussions, it seems every conversation becomes an order to defend my beliefs.

I'm tired of that, and there's no particular reason I ought to do so.

You for one, bring very interesting points to most every thread I've participated in with you. I wish there were a way for more of that to happen.

[More Than A Feeling]

49. Aw, c'mon JerseyGirlCT, you're a good sport, and you handle

yourself well everytime I've seen you at work in this forum.

[JerseygirlCT]

50. Thanks. Honestly. I do appreciate that.

But it gets tough to feel you need to defend (not explain, which is cool) something as important to you as belief.

I don't think I've ever suggested that an atheist ought to believe as I do. Or that there's something wrong with their choice. If I have, I apologize. But in the same way, I've come to where I have not through some unthinking reflex, but with a great deal of thought and reflection. I'm not stupid; I've just come to a different conclusion.

Thanks again, truly. It means a lot to me to hear that.

[More Than A Feeling]

52. A great deal of thought and reflection, eh?

Love to hear about it, if you'd like to share. No judgment, just curiosity.

[JerseygirlCT]

53. I've probably always been the wise-guy, questioning things

I perhaps wasn't supposed to question. I was raised R. Catholic, but especially as I got a bit older, the more progressive nature of my parish lent itself nicely to questions -- as did the personalities of the people likely to answer the questions.

Somehow my Republican, fairly traditional father raised feminists. We were always valued. That showed up early in my questions about fairness wrt to religious doctrine. I remember as a youngster asking why the pastor of our parish had a house as big as ours (which was one of the better ones compared to many of my classmates) for one person -- wasn't he supposed to be worrying about people who need a place to live?

After I left home, I realized the RCC world could be much less flexible than what I was used to -- in fact, downright hostile to my beliefs and needs. I spent a lot of time feeling sort of depressed and lost, spiritually. I literally wandered into an Episcopal church, and learned a bit more, and found a good fit -- first, because of the far different attitude toward women, but secondly, because of the attitude toward independent thinking.

As I've been raising kids, that's forced me to *really* think about what it is I believe. Does the resurrection as taught in Sunday school make any sense, really? Do I really think Jesus had to die for my sins? Is there anything logical about the idea of original sin?

It's ever so much more comfie not to be the type to think about these things. I could have been a comfortable Christmas and Easter Catholic without leaving my family religion -- so long as it wasn't very important to think too much about it.

There's an awful lot I'm not sure about, still. I imagine I'm just going to have to get comfortable with the discomfort of doubt and questions. And finding my own particular way to synthesize tradition, scripture and my own thoughts. And a way to guide my kids without leaving them the same room for wondering.

But I don't think through my own thinking I've ever felt real doubt about the existence of God. That's been fairly constant. And it's not arrived at logically, but in the heart.

And good grief, look at the novel I've foisted on you. Rude of me! I'll stop now, and thank you for asking, even if I ended up giving you more than you wanted!

[EvilAL]

56. I like this forum.

Religion interests me. No religion in particular, just what religion is. Reading the posts here is like an encyclopedia for people's beliefs. The arguments will always be the same to a certain extent, but they are always different as well. I don't remember who says what, but I remember what. I don't have a nemesis as far as I know.
What would be real good would be a porn forum. :evilgrin:

[Goblinmonger]

58. I'll be your nemesis if you want

Of course I imagine we are a bit alike. I'd join you in the porn forum, that's for sure.

[EvilAL]

59. I'd like to remain nemesis-free

for the time being, I'll keep you posted however.
So 2 on board for the porn forum.. how many more names we need to get one?
hahahahah

[TRYPHO]

57. I'm in the middle of a break...

Just peeking my nose round the corner as I have a few moments, and I wish I could be a more active part of the moaning and groaning, tooing and froing going on here. Ayesha I think you have gone too deep into the belly of the beast and have forgotten how pretty it looked from the outside.

Enjoy the threads, don't suffer them!

I should be back in a short while and I seriously expect to get every thread bent to my way of thinking!!

Ciao for now,

TRYPHO