Poll: Romney's Mormonism May Be An Issue

[struggle4progress]

Americans Have Less Favorable View Of Mormon Faith Than Of Most Other Religions

... The poll asked Americans whether they would support a Mormon candidate for president, without mentioning Romney's name. Sixty-three percent said they would vote for a qualified Republican who was Mormon, and 66 percent said they'd back a qualified Democrat who was Mormon. But about one in four people said they would not vote for a Mormon candidate for president ...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/13/opinion/polls/main2469572.shtml

[The_Casual_Observer]

1. My only problem with the guy is that he is an asshole

republican bastard. It has nothing to do with religion.

[Erika]

3. Mormonism is a little too weird for me

This guy was for everything before he became against it.

[The_Casual_Observer]

6. It's the "All American" cult for sure.

Around here it's the whitest bunch of clean cut people you would ever hope to meet.

BTW, Happy Valentines Day Erika!

:loveya:

[Erika]

7. Happy Valentines Casual Observer

I so enjoy your posts! My humor.

[Erika]

2. Mormons (men) believe they will become Gods themselves

"As I once was, you may become" is their scripture for this belief. They also believe in baptism of the dead. Women cannot gain entrance to heaven without their husband's approval. I have no use for their cult and certainly wouldn't vote for one for president.

[MADem]

9. I happen to like my family members, but I know people who do not

And they'd probably prefer to chew off their foot than become a Mormon, simply because of that awful "family together in heaven forever" belief that they have.

It is a disturbingly patriarchal religion, and all of the powerful people at the top of their outfit are old white men.

I don't have much use for organized religions, anyway. I don't need to pay some fellow in a dress to get Jesus or any other Supreme Being on the line for me!

[Goblinmonger]

18. Hey

Stop your catholic bashing

It is a disturbingly patriarchal religion, and all of the powerful people at the top of their outfit are old white men.

:rofl:

[MADem]

45. Heh, like I said, I don't go for organized religions, no matter what the peculiar beliefs! NT

[SpudStateDem]

10. I'm A Mormon Man...

...and I don't believe that women can't gain entrance to Heaven without their husband's approval. Is there just a chance you're spouting off about things you don't know anything about?

[trotsky]

15. Doesn't this relate to the so-called "celestial" marriage?

If a woman doesn't get into one, she doesn't go to heaven, isn't that the case?

[MADem]

46. Here is a link from Religious Tolerance (they t ry to explain the different faiths)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_beli.htm

In your opinion, is this fairly accurate, or are there big errors? Is this what is taught in Sunday schools?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

105. What if a woman never marries?

Who lets her into heaven, then?

[grytpype]

4. I would not vote for a Mormon, or a Scientologist or a Hare Krishna.

It's bad enough I have to vote for Christians.

[poverlay]

5. As a born and raised Christian who is now very liberal and "live and let live" sort of

philosophizer, I must say that I would never ... ever vote for a Mormon.

[Dorian Gray]

25. If we had a Dem candidate who was Mormon

and who stood for all that I stood for, I'd have no problem voting for a Mormon. It's not likely that we'll have a candidate as high profile as Mitt on our side, but if we did, and I thought that he'd vote in a way my conscience would find acceptable, his religion would not be a problem for me.

[Meshuga]

28. Religion or non-religion

Theist or non-theist, as long as he/she is a good candidate who stands for what I think it's right this person will get my vote. If we get stuck on a label we dislike we lose the opportunity to meet really good people who carry that label.

[Dorian Gray]

41. Exactly, Mr. Wiggles!

:)

[Goblinmonger]

43. Dude

I know this makes me sound like I am in middle school, but I can't ever look at your username without chuckling a little bit because it sounds like a pet name for a penis. "Does Mr. Wiggles want his Valentine's Day present?" :rofl: Sorry. :hide:

[Meshuga]

44. Yes, MrWiggles is waiting for his present tonight

However, I would not name my prick Mr. Wiggles. I would probably go for Dr.Wiggles since it gives him more credibility.

[Dorian Gray]

86. That's not fair!

You made me snort out my orange juice all over my computer.

[Evoman]

103. Bwahahahaha

:rofl:

Hilarious!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

107. Credibility and penises

talk about mutual exclusivity!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

106. Isn't Harry Reid a Mormon?

But I'm not sure I'd vote for him as President. Although I like him.

It really presents a cunundrum, doesn't it? When somebody believes something so unique? Is it bigotry or common sense not to vote for them?

[MADem]

8. Well, they have an interesting history, a uniquely AMERICAN history

Some of the 'fantastical' things that happened in the Old Testament are whoopdiedoo fine to many people, because that happened a LOOOOOONG time ago in a land far, far away (that most folks can't find on a doggone map). Wife turning into a pillar of salt? No biggie. Parting of the Red Sea? Sure, why not? But hey, talking amphibians? And angels called (the urge is irrisistable to preface the name with Bony) Moroni? The gifts of tongues, and prophesy? Miss Cleo comes to mind... The ban on coffee, tea and sodas? Damn, that's harsh. And then, there's this:

http://www.hbo.com/biglove/



Now, I know that the Mormon Church in Salt Lake says that the fundamentalist Mormons aren't Mormons, but where you stand depends on where you sit. There are plenty of Baptist denominations that are unaffiliated with the Big Baptist Cheese, after all, but they still call themselves Baptists and no one blinks an eye.

And then, there's the underwear thing. The underwear thing is certainly a unique identifier.

Also, they've been in the news a lot in the last few decades. That Salamander letter forgery/murders, the putting dead Jews and others as well on the books at their head temple, the 'no Black folk at the top of the hierarchy' policies...

All religions have their odd features and beliefs that are incredulous to those who aren't in the 'club.' This one is newer than most, and it has newer oddities that are ripe for discussion and teasing.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

109. I can't get enough of that show.

Big Love has made me think ... that's quite a feat.

[MADem]

113. It's starting up again next month, I think

I enjoy it as well. The acting is simply amazing--it's quite the ensemble cast. Harry Dean Stanton plays a wonderful bastard, Bruce Dern is in his element, and the 'wives' always knock it out of the park. Paxton does a good job of being a sanctimonious ass while at the same time convincing the audience that he really believes that he's right.

It's really one masterful performance after another.

Of course, Tom Hanks has a hand in it, and he's not one to produce crap.

[dicknbush]

11. SOme Basic Mormon Beliefs..

Of course I don't suppose these are that much different from Christian in that Christians belive that bread and water turn into flesh and blood to be eaten and drunk....Oh well some day the entire Universe will be stretched so that every molicule and atom will be undone...then all this religion stufff will be mute adn we of course will be long dead and carbonized nothingness floating in the universe goin nowhere for nothing.
In the meantime we can amuze ourselves with this nonsense.


What follows are some of the strange doctrines of mormonism.

God was once a man - Brigham Young said, "If our Father and God should be disposed to wak through these aisles, we should not know Him from one of the congregation. You would see a man and that is all you would know about Him." (Journal of Discourse, Vol II, pg 40). Mormons belief that through faithfulness to the mormon doctrine they too may one day become gods with a planet of their own.

God the Father has many wives - God the Father, according to the "Pearl of Great Price" in "Abraham 3:9,16", is said to be living on a planet near the star Koleb with his wives having spiritual children.

Jesus was the spirit brother of Lucifer - according to this doctrine Jesus became the Savior because he came up with a better plan than Lucifer concerning how to get the people on earth to worship God (see The Kingdom of God, by Oscar McConkie Jr pg 46; Pearl of Great Price, Book of Moses, 4:1-3).

Black-skinned people are of inferior origin - mormonism teaches that the spirit beings that did not fight valiantly for God come to earth as blacks, while those who fought valiantly come to earth as whites. Until very recently blacks could not become priests in the mormon system of worship for reasons related to this and other demeaning doctrines.

We are saved by grace, after we have done all we can - who is there that has done 'all they can' in following any given religious system? No one. This is a kind of double-speak. Mormonism is a system of religious works and merit from start to finish. It is all about earning merit and a state of worthiness by obedience to the mormon religious system.

There are many other strange mormon doctrines and beliefs which I may get into later. I hope it is clear for those who may be considering the mormon religion seriously that there are many strange and highly doubtful teachings and practices which have perhaps even less credibility than the prophecies of their originator - Joseph Smith.

[SpudStateDem]

12. Those Don't Sound Like Beliefs I Have

I'm a Mormon, and I don't believe, and have never been taught, that Heavenly Father has many wives, or that blacks are inferior. As far as Jesus being the spirit brother of Lucifer, we believe that all of us, humans, archangels, and whatever, are the spirit sons and daughters of a Heavenly Father and Mother.

I'm sure your later discussion will be equally "factual". Remember, telling someone who knows what they believe that they actually believe something else because you "know" it only makes you look silly.

[poverlay]

34. I disagree. If you're going to identify yourself as a Mormon, then you must

own all the doctrines which that religion espouses. Regardless, you're going to be treated as though you do because you choose to identify yourself as such.

[Dorian Gray]

38. People identify themselves

as many things everyday. Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Marxist, Socialist, Capitalist, and they may not embrace every single aspect of said ideology. When people self-identify they may do so for a variety of reasons. Birth, culture, parental or familial affiliations. I know many a Democrat AND Republican who identify as such strictly because they were raised that way. They vote party lines, but many of their personal beliefs may fall differently than most within the party. I know many Catholics who are pro-Gay Rights, pro-Choice, pro-Birth Control, pro-In Vitro Fertilization, pro-Embryonic Stem Cell research, pro-Females becoming priests, even though those opinions differ from the church's theology. There are other factors at play, and I do believe that the same may be true for Mormons.

[Goblinmonger]

39. So if you identify as a Christian

then you have to take the nutjobs like Robertson since that is what Christianity is, too. You will find a great deal of Christians on here that will quickly spout the "He's not a true Chrisitan" line pretty fast if you make that argument.

on edit: just want to be clear that I know you don't identify as a Christian; this post is more for other people reading this thread and not so much for you. Sorry to threadjack.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

111. Kind of like we all have to admit

crazy Uncle Elmer is a blood relative even though he never would bury his mules and made furniture from their skeletons?

[Goblinmonger]

121. I've missed you, Grannie

and your incredible, subtle wit.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

128. Oh, you bring tears to my eyes, Goblin.

[MADem]

47. Welllllll.....I gotta disagree with your assertion, there. People blow off rules all the time.

I lived for years in the Middle East, amongst shi'a and sunni. Let me tell you, those guys ignored the teachings of the religion CONSTANTLY. They ate a few crackers and had a bit of water in the day during Ramadan, they drank alcohol, they fucked around, they did all sorts of "naughty" things. But hey, on the real holy days, they were "ON" like Sarah Bernhardt!

I also know a lot of "Cafeteria Catholics." They like the church services, they like many aspects of the doctrine, they think the birth control business is bullshit, and they turn up at church with their two kids (and NO MORE, damnit!!!) and the priest doesn't ask why there aren't four or five more, seeing as the couple has been married for twenty years. They also vote for pro-choice Democrats without batting an eye.

I've also known a few non-reform, certainly not secular, Jews who "sneak" the occasional BLT or bacon burger when they're out on the town.

I have also heard of "Jack Mormons" who pick, choose and refuse. I don't think this "take what you like, and leave the rest" attitude is uncommon amongst any religion.

People help themselves to the rules they like, and dismiss the ones they don't. Happens in most faiths, I'd imagine....

[poverlay]

52. Yes, but their identification as a member of that religion/church supports that church as well as

reflects upon it.

[MADem]

54. Well, sure. That's called hypocrisy by some, "cafeteria" by others.

It doesn't matter what the the church teaches, it comes down to what the adherents believe, and how much of the teachings they feel like following. Of course they give their money to the church, it's their social, familial and historical touchstone--and they keep on doing their own thing.

And their kids know the deal--so there's a dual track going on that crosses generations.

And make no mistake, it IS going on. Not just with the Mormons, but with most, if not all, religions. I think you'd be hard put to find any person of any faith that believes every single obscure, halfassed rule.

[Dorian Gray]

87. Yes, it does.

Basically, nobody is perfect. And a lot of people don't even bother trying to be. :D

I'm certainly guilty of it at times, though I try to be quite pious. But, I choose certain aspects of my religion that I focus on more than others, and it's natural. We all identify with certain philosophies/theologies/ideas more so than others. Embrace your strengths.

And, it's not my place to judge how well others live up to their religiosity.

[bryant69]

49. Yes but we own the actual doctrines, not your decietful distortions

That should be simple enough to understand. I don't feel the need to live up to your bullshit interpretation of my religion.

Bryant

[poverlay]

53. Yes you own it very well, and have done nothing to prove the alleged deceit or distortion. You

have, however, done a fine job interpreting your religion for me~ "bullshit" and all. Just like so many other Mormon's I've met...

[bryant69]

55. laughs - you're such a (comment deleted due to rule #3)

Kind of sad - is this how you generally act - just try to bully people when they challenge your bigotry? I guess it's a smart plan.

[poverlay]

59. Yes I have called you out for your inaccuracies and misrepresentations, not to mention

your vocabulary and lack of attempts at understanding, but at no time have I tried to torment or coerce you(bullying). I'm sorry you feel that way.

You might want to take a lesson or two in understanding from MADem. It may make you feel better...
:eyes:

[bryant69]

61. You haven't called me out for anything

God you're stupid. That's why I'm not bothering debating - your bigotry is well displayed and theres no point discussing it with someone of your limited mentality.

Bryant

[poverlay]

63. Wow, you Mormon's sure are compassionate to us stupid people. Sure is nice of you

to take the time to try and edumacate us "limited" folk. Sorry I'm just so thick and all...

Seriously,
Thanks for proving my point...

[bryant69]

64. You start the conversation saying Mormons are racist and misogynst

and want to now pretend to be all hurt? Guess I never failed to consider your bigoted feelings. I apologize - bigots are people too after all.

Bryant

[poverlay]

65. You embody my point beautifully, but in case anyone else wants some background quotes.. enjoy:

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less. . . . There were no neutrals in the war in Heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 65-66; emphasis added).

Oh yeah and:

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which was the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another cursed is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree" (Journal of Discourses, 7:290; emphasis added)

and:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be"---Brigham Young (ibid., 10:110; emphasis added)

Don't forget:

"I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of man, that they may not call Scripture" ~Brigham Young (ibid., 13:95).
(That's your scripture Bryant)


Hmmm, who is this by?:

"Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 270; History of the Church, 5: 218)

When oh when shall the curse be removed Bryant?

Oh and by the way I never used the word misogynist, let alone your misspelled version "misogynst.(See, that dictionary would've come in handy. Maybe try that funny little "Check Spelling" button in the lower left corner.) Please try and be a little more accurate if you're going to attempt a clever rejoinder.

[SpudStateDem]

69. Anything From The Last 30 Years?

While past Mormons may have had those beliefs, current-day Mormons mostly do not. Democrats used to believe in segregation, but don't anymore. Using your logic, we'd have to say that Democrats believe in segregation, which is patently untrue -- just as your ideas about what Mormons believe seem to be mostly untrue.

[poverlay]

72. I'll use my logic if you use yours. I give you the Book of Mormon:

1 Nephi 11:13 (Mary) "she was exceedingly fair and white."

1 Nephi 12:23 (prophecy of the Lamanites) " became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations."

1 Nephi 13:15 (Gentiles) "they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain."

2 Nephi 5:21 "a sore cursing . . . as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

2 Nephi 30:6 (prophecy to the Lamanites if they repented) "scales of darkness shall begin to fall. . . . they shall be a white and delightsome people" ("white and delightsome" was changed to "pure and delightsome" in 1981).

Jacob 3:5 (Lamanites cursed) "whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins. . . ."

Jacob 3:8-9 "their skins will be whiter than yours... revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins. . . ."

Alma 3:6 "And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion."

Alma 3:9 "whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed."

Alma 3:14 (Lamanites cursed) "set a mark on them that they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed. . . ."

Alma 23:18 " did open a correspondence with them and the curse of God did no more follow them."

3 Nephi 2:14-16 "Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites and . . . became exceedingly fair. . . . "

3 Nephi 19:25, 30 (Disciples) "they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness. . . . nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof… and behold they were white, even as Jesus."

Mormon 5:15 (prophecy about the Lamanites) "for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us. . . ."


At some point in the last 30 years was the "Book of Mormon" disavowed?
Were women allowed in the priesthood? (Racism was but one of the reasons I have naught but disgust for Mormonism.) Law of Sarah anyone?
Have you read "Pearl of Great Price"? Some of it is completely revolting.

These racist statements are still in these books that are taught as the end all be all sources of infalliable-word of god to the angels to the "prophets", to the ears of the present day child going to Mormon sunday school.
Pleases refer to the quotes from my previous post from Brigham Young and then consider this quote of his:
"I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of man, that they may not call Scripture" (ibid., 13:95)
and President Brigham Young went so far as to proclaim that if the church gave "all the blessings of God" to the blacks prematurely(meaning before every white had them, not before 1978...), the priesthood would be taken away and the Mormon Church would go to destruction.
This from the man the Mormon church reveres as much or more than their founder. Many places, things, and people affiliated with Mormons are named in his honor.

Do Mormons not believe in their own scripture? Is it not relevant today? Can it be changed at will to fit the current prevailing opinions? If so it is a false, hypocritical and worthless.

~Yes they have allowed African Americans into their priesthood, but they have never changed the doctrine that says they are cursed with black skin and that they are descendants of Cain. That will only change when they are forced to it. Perhaps when they want one of their own to hold high public office?

There is nothing in the Democratic Party's platform that still has so much of a whisper of support for segregation. You also overlooked the fact that Democrats can leave their party far easier than Mormons can leave their religion~or even disagree with it. Political parties are not religions which tell people how to live and what to believe. They are coalitions of people who already have beliefs. Another very telling point is that the overwhelming majority of Mormons are staunch, neo-con, Bush can do no wrong Republicans.

Quite the apples to oranges argument you have. I understand what you're saying and agree somewhat, but I'm not discussing each individual's beliefs. I'm sure Mitt Romney would never say anything racist in public. I'm discussing their(his) identifying with an institution that has such an oppressive, discriminatory, and hate-filled doctrine/world-view.



I think you should do more research as I've, in the past, found most of this information within easy google search. There is so much more. Entire blogs even. Talk to some ex-Mormons. Talk to some current ones and see what they say.
I'll continue to think and apply my logic if you agree to do the same. So far though, you haven't even come close to calling my logic into doubt.
Now I must go watch the Daily show.
Good night

[SpudStateDem]

75. So Women Aren't Priests...

Did you happen to vote for a Catholic in the last election? Do they have woman priests?

I'm not quite sure why you expect me to go to Google to find out "what the Mormon Church teaches" when I can go straight to the source to find out what the Mormon Church teaches today. Here's what the President of the Church said regarding race relations last year in a worldwide broadcast:
"Racial strife still lifts its ugly head. I am advised that even right here among us there is some of this. I cannot understand how it can be. It seemed to me that we all rejoiced in the 1978 revelation given President Kimball. I was there in the temple at the time that that happened. There was no doubt in my mind or in the minds of my associates that what was revealed was the mind and the will of the Lord.
Now I am told that racial slurs and denigrating remarks are sometimes heard among us. I remind you that no man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ. Nor can he consider himself to be in harmony with the teachings of the Church of Christ. How can any man holding the Melchizedek Priesthood arrogantly assume that he is eligible for the priesthood whereas another who lives a righteous life but whose skin is of a different color is ineligible?
Throughout my service as a member of the First Presidency, I have recognized and spoken a number of times on the diversity we see in our society. It is all about us, and we must make an effort to accommodate that diversity.
Let us all recognize that each of us is a son or daughter of our Father in Heaven, who loves all of His children.
Brethren, there is no basis for racial hatred among the priesthood of this Church. If any within the sound of my voice is inclined to indulge in this, then let him go before the Lord and ask for forgiveness and be no more involved in such."

That's what's being taught in the Church now.

[poverlay]

78. So you don't believe in the Book of Mormon? Talk about going straight to the source! "Hey,

if we can pretend it doesn't say what it says, then we can say it says whatever we want it to say!" Papal infallibility is just as silly as your prophet's '78 about face on doctrine. Have you started a completely new Mormon religion since the "President of the church" made his speech last year?

There are plenty of websites comparing the differences between religions. I'm not going to do your work for you. I'm fully aware of the hypocrisies inherent in the Catholic church as well as several other mainstream religions. I don't feel a need to play the "everybody else does it so it must be ok" game with you. I've posted enough on this thread to explain myself and you're welcome to peruse my posts at your convenience.
The point is that you've done nothing to explain why I should respect your religion. If you love it~ fine. Don't feel you can force me to overlook that which is, at the very least, offensive.

[Book Lover]

126. I think part of the misunderstanding has to do with the authority of the President

Can you explain to us (myself included) how far a President's teaching may countermand or augment what is found in the Book of Mormon?

[bryant69]

70. Well that's convincing

I guess I see your point - I'm really not worthy to debate such a find upstanding person as yourself - and so will forgo further participation in the religion forum. Congratulations.

[Dorian Gray]

88. I'm not a Mormon Apologist

nor do I have any particular affinity for the Church of Latter Day Saints. I've known maybe five Mormons in my life, and I wasn't particularly close to any of them. I'm just giving you this information so that you know I have no bone in defending the church.

All those quotes were repudiated by the Church in the last 30 or so years. The church changed its stance on minorities. It wasn't born out of goodness, but there are plenty of other organizations that have evolved out of their original charters.

[cosmik debris]

89. You just don't appreciate a good broad brush smear

Condemning all for the beliefs of a few is a time honored tradition. And telling others what they believe is a R/T standard. :sarcasm:

But seriously, Mormons make great "designated drivers" and they never take the last beer or the last cup of coffee! Well, almost never.

[Dorian Gray]

95. Hah...

I'll take one. A designated driver that is. We Roman Catholics of Irish descent are known to tip back one or two. :)

[poverlay]

94. Yes, I understand. They have supposedly evolved out of polygny too. I've had

enough personal experience to know that not all Mormons are bad, I'm not claiming they are. but, The religion is a drawback. Much of its publicly spouted good is too often undercut by the actions of its members(lots of personal experience).

How do you worship everything your god supposedly wrote and then change or "repudiate" it? I mean, it was written on gold plates. Am I supposed to grant authenticity or respect to a religion that changes their core beliefs when they become unpopular(And at least a decade or two after that even)?

and no
They did not "repudiate" the Book of Mormon, they simply said that God changed their mind. Which means either he changed his mind, or thought racism among other things, was ok for a while. A better argument invalidating the authenticity and omnipotence of a God I've not heard.

[Dorian Gray]

96. I have no problems with you claiming that the

religion is not valid. Hell, I don't think any religion but mine is valid, and I know many here would argue until they were blue in the faith that mine was not valid.

It's just the overt broad brush stroking that made me slightly uncomfortable. And I have time to kill, so I'm being particularly verbose in this topic right now. :)

[poverlay]

98. I apologize for making you uncomfortable, but I have been burned too

many times by Mormons to have any respect for their religion. I have learned too much about their religion to think that it is in any way seriously committed to mitigating the base and negative aspects of human behavior except when it benefits them in some other way(Which, I believe, is the best argument in favor of religion.). That is my belief and no one has done or shown me anything to convince me otherwise.

I agree I was possibly being a bit broad, but how do you state your dislike for someone's religion without pissing them off-All of them?

I've got to step out for a bit, so I'll chat w/you later~
Thanks,
P

[TallahasseeGrannie]

114. Wow, you must really

have had some bad experiences to develop this sized chip on your shoulder. Wish I could ask you to detail, but it is probably not prudent for this forum.

[poverlay]

120. It's the whole package that upsets me Grannie, it's the whole package.

(I don't need or want to relay the stories. You don't want to hear them any more than I want to tell them.
Rest assured, they're completely sordid, outrageous, and freaky.
My personal anecdotes, however, don't matter a bit, my "chip", as you call it, is available to any reasoned person who does the research...)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

127. I will not criticize you for being molded

by your life's experiences. It is with rather a strong personal slap upside the head that I keep from making snide comments about Mormons (whose theology is rather unique) and Scientologists. But I believe Jesus rose from the dead, so I guess I don't have any room to snicker. That's kind of odd, too.

Sometimes there does seem to be rather a Stepford quality about the Mormon kids I teach, but on the other hand, they are all doing well. It truly is something I ponder a lot. It makes me wonder what level of organized belief system works best for parenting. I've got some wild and crazy kids with wild and crazy parents who are creative and exciting, but seem to burn out quickly. I wonder where the middle ground lies?

[cosmik debris]

99. "Not all Mormons are bad" you say?

But in another post you say "If you're going to identify yourself as a Mormon, then you must own all the doctrines which that religion espouses."

So are you saying that the only good Mormon is one who does not identify as a Mormon? You seem to have made statements that contradict.

[poverlay]

101. I may seem to be, unless you are really trying to understand. Then it should be clear

that I think Mormon's can behave responsibly regardless of what their church does or teaches, but they will still be painted with the brush that they provide. Not to mention the fact that they must be considered, at the least, hypocrites and liars if they adhere to a religion they don't intend to follow the rules of, or "believe" in the doctrine.
All churches I've ever seen certainly do love to hold up one member's virtue as a shining example of their special beneficence. I don't identify myself as a Mormon because I don't want to be responsible for the church's(Not just the official "council", but all of the members that comprise it) actions and statements. If Mitt wants to be identified as a Mormon then yes, he must accept the judgment brought about by the Mormons.
Just as Catholics must deal with the shame of so many priests being identified as child molesters. It doesn't stand to reason that simply because I abhor the Catholic church for their role in victimizing so many that I believe all Catholics are child molesters. I simply question their judgment, among other things, in allying and aligning themselves with such an organization.

Does that clarify it enough for you? I can go on for hours, but you can probably figure out my meaning if you really wish to by reading the volumes I've previously written in this thread. I'v very sorry if you are offended, but I have a right to my beliefs just as you do.

I've got to step out for a bit...
Poverlay

[cosmik debris]

102. I am trying to understand

I am trying to understand how you can say that not all Mormons are bad, but it is OK for you to say they are bad because they are Mormons.

It seems that the whole basis for your screed is a bad experience with a few Mormons, and your own opinion of what Mormons believe. You don't get to decide what Mormon rules are, and you don't get to decide what Mormons should or do believe. And you are not the one who can authoritatively pontificate on Mormon doctrine. If you want to know what people believe, ask them, don't tell them.

Your gross generalization that all Mormons should believe or do believe the same thing is tantamount to bigotry as Bryant69 said.

[Evoman]

108. Screw you, Cosmik Debris.

Oh no, wait. You make sense and I agree with you.

Oops. :)

[cosmik debris]

118. I had to breath really deeply

when I found myself agreeing with Bryant and Struggle4progress. I promise it won't happen again--at least not often.

[poverlay]

119. My opinion has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon. It says what it says. You can read it as

easily as anyone. I do so love this line of "Oh please stop telling Mormons what to believe". ~~~ Wow, I can't believe it. Are any of them listening?
I'm simply restating their own scriptures. Have I not provided ample sourcing? These are the things that Mormons, their very selves, say they believe in. These are things that are in their holiest writings. Things at the core of their religion.
Is or is not the Book of Mormon considered more "right" than the Bible(when properly translated) by the LDS church? That's what Mormons claim. (And those are some mighty big legitimacy boots to fill there.) They then turn around and say ~ "Oh, we don't believe in what is written in the book we said is infallible and holy and WE BELIEVE IN."

OK maybe I'm just confused. That must be it.

I have every right to disrespect those who pick and choose from among their particular holy writings whatever is convenient and popular, who then claim the overall mantle of that religion. I mean who is wrong here? Is it Joseph Smith? Brigham Young, Spencer Kimball, Lorenzo Snow? Maybe Gordon Hinckley? The LDS website? The Book of Mormon? Who? Their stories don't match on several minor things. Like, oh, I don't know, maybe equality of humans for one. Of some minor importance you say? Methinks it might be time for a rewrite.

Your failure is in assuming that I am upset with the LDS religion because it is different than mine. If that were the case, you and Bryant could celebrate on the H.M.S. Bigot all you like, but that is not the case.

By the way, Mitt Romney has stated that he is a Mormon. I suppose I should ask for a detailed menu of what he believes even though the Mormon church is very clear in saying that to be a Mormon you must believe in certain things.
Racism, sexism, (Plenty of those in the LDS holy writings)maybe just hypocrisy of a stunning level(Plenty of that elsewhere), ~ none of them are admirable qualities and you can try and label me all you like, but a thing is what it is. I'm just an observer. If you don't like what I see...
Stop showing it to me. Until then, I'll reserve the right to disagree and disapprove all I want. I'll even go you one better and reserve your right to do the same.

[cosmik debris]

122. What utter nonsense

You are making generalizations about people that you don't know for the sole purpose of insulting them. It is no different from saying that black people like fried chicken.

I won't deny that some Mormons believe that the book of Mormon is sacred, but do they all believe that? Are they required as a basis for your insult to believe what you say they believe? And the audacity to believe that your interpretation of their book is the ultimate word on the subject is astounding. Are they not allowed to disagree with you on the meaning of the book without incurring your wrath?

I made no assumptions about your religion or its differences from Bryant's. I simply read your posts and recognized a common condition here in the R/T forum. You hold the whole group responsible for YOUR interpretation of their scripture and you generalize about them for the purpose of insult.

I am sorry that you are not astute enough to see that Mormons are not a monolithic block of automatons who all agree on every thing you insist on. They are individuals with individual opinions and beliefs. For you to stereotype them just so that you can feel superior to them is rather petty in my opinion.

[poverlay]

123. You don't listen very well. Try actually reading my previous posts and you can

discover why you're wrong without me having to spell it phonetically for you. Then, if you're still offended(and I'm sure you will be, since it appears that you came at me looking for a logic-less fight), you should misinterpret a Golden Book for awhile. It's hilarious...


:spray:

[cosmik debris]

124. So Let's Recap

By your own "reasoning":

1) There is only one interpretation of the Book of Mormon. Yours. No disagreement is valid.

2) a. All Mormons are reprehensible because they believe the Book of Mormon OR
b. All Mormons are reprehensible because they don't believe the book of Mormon.

3) All black people like fried chicken. :sarcasm:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

112. Are you Mormon, Bryant?

I didn't know that. Maybe you can set the discussion straight.

I know that the Christian faith has evolved over the centuries and there are surely things they believed or espoused generations ago that I don't deal with.

Heck, I used to have to wear a hat to church. Doesn't seem like such a big thing now, but it would have been scandalous to go into my church bareheaded 40 years ago.

[struggle4progress]

71. And this proposed rule is enforced by YOU as the expert on Mormon doctrine, I suppose?

[poverlay]

73. I don't recall proposing a rule. I do propose you read things more carefully in the future. n/t

[struggle4progress]

74. Sure, ya proposed a rule. Here's the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=111816&mesg_id=111875

Your rule is apparently this: if somebody self-identifies as a member of a certain religious group, they own whatever doctrines YOU say define that group.

[poverlay]

76. That's completely absurd. Religions choose their own doctrine. Which is from the latin for

"code of beliefs" or "instructions". They define themselves without any help from me. Those who adhere to a religion therefore adhere to that "code of beliefs" do they not? Maybe you just don't think anyone actually believes what their religion professes. Now that's what I call jaded!

By the way, Is that a rule I proposed or is that a pre-existing reality? Of course I would love to have such power, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't need your approval to pass such a rule and therefore wouldn't bother proposing it to you...
Nice try, but kinda weak.

[struggle4progress]

77. Translation: Yer gonna keep tellin Mormons what they hafta believe to be Mormons

[poverlay]

79. Are you tired? I just got done explaining that Mormons do that for themselves~often. Just like any

religion. No translation required. Maybe you're confused. It's ok.

Try reading about the Mormon church's doctrine.
Start with the Book of Mormon. I'm sure it will be illuminating. Oh, and nowhere will I claim authorship. Translation: I'm not telling anyone anything. It's all Oliver Cowdery and Co....

Goodnight
sleep well
I will:boring:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

110. Could you provide a link

to these doctrines? Because it seems they vary considerably from site to site.

[poverlay]

125. I've quoted the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and

a few others in previous posts throughout this thread as well as bibliography info. It does differ somewhat in different websites, and you have to be careful. It is, however, pretty easy to find reliable sources on those three. You might want to try the official LDS website. Here is a link to one of my previous quotes: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/5 Down near 21 I believe is interesting reading.

I find the Mormon church's official website, with it's official holy book, somewhat authoritative. Others on this board might disagree. Which is why I've tried to stick with just them("Official" LDS sources). Of course I could quote someone's mother and they'd probably accuse me of putting words in her mouth so... what's the point?
I just answered a poll and discovered that most of the people on this thread would prefer to be offended so that they can be right and righteous.

Thank you for attempting understanding before judgement. I promise you that I do so with everyone I meet. (Even if they're Mormon.):sarcasm:

Poverlay

[dsc]

66. I don't know your age

but I do know that in the 1970's or 1980's the Mormons apologized for their beliefs about and behavior towards blacks. They did indeed believe them inferior.

[SpudStateDem]

68. Notice the Past Tense There

"Did" believe. Catholics once believed that those who taught the Earth moved around the Sun should be excommunicated. Since I've belonged to the Church, no one has taught me the "beliefs" that some are trying to ascribe to Mormons -- therefore, my point is that Mormons aren't actually teaching their followers these beliefs.

[Meldread]

13. Not voting for Romney would have nothing to do with his religion.

I wouldn't vote for Romney based on the content of his character, past political actions, and current political views. If there was a Democratic Candidate who was a Mormon who shared my values I would have no problem voting for him. If Al Gore or Barack Obama were Mormon it would not matter to me in the least.

I put Mormonism on the same list as Christianity and other such religions. How are any of the wacky beliefs Mormon's have any different from many of the beliefs more traditional Christians have such as Catholics? Or Baptists? To my eyes, Catholics are much more "out there" than Mormons. At least they aren't pretending to be cannibals.

[bryant69]

14. It is nice to have at least one group you can piss on

I mean tolerance is a nice ideal and all - but let's not get carried away.

Bryant

[poverlay]

16. Bigotry, Sexism, and a willingness to do whatever you feel necessary to non-mormons to get ahead in

the next life trumps tolerance. If you are advocating their hypocrisy and all the thinly veiled hatred that goes along with it, please let me know so I can put you on my ignore list.

Mormons are an extremist group just like the Taliban, and just because I respect their basic human rights doesn't give them carte blanche to treat others poorly...

I don't know what brand of milquetoast pacifism you practice, but objecting to having those I love abused in the name of someone else's religion is not ok with me.

I'll piss on any group that treats people the way Mormons do.
I'll do it proudly.

[bryant69]

17. I guess you'll have to piss on me then since I am a Mormon

Nice to have all our cards on the table though.

I don't practice any brand of milquetoast pacifism.

Bryant

[poverlay]

27. Your actions define whether or not I like you. Your adherence to a religion that

preaches and allows the things Mormonism does is a giant drawback. If you don't like people seeing your religion in that light, then perhaps you should look to those who you've identified yourself with. I certainly would never vote you into any position of authority unless the only choice was far worse.
If you think I'm being unreasonable I'd be happy to debate with you later. Right now I have to go try and find a way to give my wife her Valentine's gifts, because her Mormon boss(A Bishop is a moderately high position of authority in your church is it not?) is requiring her to work an extra long shift because he believes that families come last...

At this point you're welcome to put me in the "doesn't like the Mormon religion or those who support it" category, but that's about it... You haven't seen even close to all my cards~ While I'm sure it would be nice to categorize me that quickly, I'm not that easy.

[bryant69]

32. Once i know you're a bigot who doesn't like people like me

why should I give a shit what other cards you are holding?

Bryant

[poverlay]

33. If by bigot you mean "intolerant", then yes I'm completely intolerant of

a religion that subjugates and disparages women, families, those of other races, and others which I'm sure you're more capable of enumerating than I.
Yes Bryant you're completely right:
I don't like people like you. If you mean people who seek offense before understanding. People who identify with a group that is as judgemental, narcissistic, racist, jingoistic(I could go on, but I've got to step out for a bit...you can carry on without me.) ~Neither should you.

Hey, If the shoe fits...
If not ~ don't.

I do, however, have some particularly choice cards...

[bryant69]

36. What is there to understand?

What part of your opinion on Mormons have I misjudged? And assuming I was peachy keen with your slandering my faith, wouldn't i still be identifying with "a group that is as judgemental, narcissistic, racist, jingoistic . . ."

I guess I understand that we'd have no problem if I just gave up my faith, accepted your warped view of it, and started condemning it right along side you. But that's not likely to happen.

So yeah, those shoes fit.

[poverlay]

50. I'm sure they do, you won't notice how much they rub until later. Allow me to clarify a few things

which you are wrong about:

1) I don't care a bit about your faith. Believe whatever you wish to. It's the actions of the official Mormon church, and 90+% of the members I've met that I have problems with. Even if I were libeling it(slander is usually spoken), which I'm not. Libel assumes a provable negative. None of the things I labeled the Mormon church, or those members of which I speak, can be disproved. For example: What you likely believe is a called a woman's proper role, I believe is called subjugation. Those labels are opinions. Opinions are neither true nor false. Therefore the libel accusation is moot.

2) I have seen the Mormon church hurt a great many people in small and large ways in fact. Your act of identifying yourself with such an institution and taking offense on its behalf indicated without apparent reservation that you wanted to be grouped wholly and completely with them. That was, and is, your choice.

3) I have very good reason for my views on Mormons and their doctrine. None of which you know about or have asked about, so you therefore have no basis to assume they are warped. You are simply reacting. Which, while understandable to me, does not make for interesting, helpful, or informative, debate.

[bryant69]

51. Bigots usually do have justifications for their bigotry.

It's the nature of bigots - nobody wants to believe that they are a bigot, I suppose. But I am no more interested in your justifications for your bigotry than you are in my actual beliefs.

Bryant

[poverlay]

58. You seem to have a bit of a problem with vocabulary Bryant, perhaps you should keep a dictionary by

the computer. Look up the word "bigot" and get back to me when you understand the reason why your labelling of me as one is inaccurate. If you can't find it, just let me know~ I'll find it for you.

If it makes you feel better just to say it repeatedly, then by all means, feel free.

[bryant69]

60. My vocabulary is just fine - and bigot is exactly the right word for you.

[MADem]

56. Perhaps you could expound on your third point? That might help us understand your

reasoning and explain the passion in your argument.

[poverlay]

62. It's a very long story. I'll give you the short version. Let me know if that's not enough:

I've been in the Temple. My best friends when I was young and many of my girlfriends as well as family are/were Mormon. 9 out of 10 of them were some of the meanest, most dishonest people I've ever known. They had/have the highest percent of life ruining qualities I've ever seen. I can enumerate, but it's all anecdotal: Child abuse, alcoholism, drugs, dishonesty, true bigotry and racism, theft, purposely and needlessly living on welfare, etc.. On the outside they all(and I'm talking about at least a few score people that I can think of off the top of my head) present a very nice exterior, good families and such, but underneath was always a mess. Not that everyone and every religion doesn't have these problems. As I said it was just a higher percentage than I could even believe~ easily in the 90s. Statistically horrible.

So I started doing the research. Read everything I could find. Talked to everyone I could talk to. (Still do~ I'm always learning and I don't believe in unalterable judgments.) There's been so much. I encourage you to research it for yourself if you're interested. Don't take my word for it. I didn't respond to this board to convince anyone of anything... Anyway:

My conclusion is that as religions go it's one of the worst. A blossomed cult. What I've discovered easily explains the problems I've encountered as well as reactions from folks like "Bryant69".

If you want specific anecdotes let me know, but I really don't think they're helpful in proving my overall point.

All religions have failings. I believe the Mormon religion is one of the worst. That's all.q

[MADem]

80. I certainly don't want to ask that you share more than you are willing.

I'm understanding that you are a former Mormon (been in the Temple, meaning the biggie? Or just one of the little ones?), disgusted with the faith?

You're saying that your opinions are based on personal experience. No need to go on. It's not for anyone to tell others how to feel, especially when it's something others haven't experienced.

Not that my advice is worth anything, these are, after all, the 'internets'--but if you came at the discussion with a bit of personal info in the first place, maybe some of these people getting angry at you for your views might be more understanding.

I always say, where you stand depends on where you sit....

[poverlay]

81. Thanks. You strike me as a wise one. Being relatively new here, I'm surprised

by some people's rush to offense and attack. I don't take kindly to rudeness, and some of these people have been ridiculous to say the least. It being religion under discussion, I shouldn't be surprised. Thank you for a sane counterpoint. I look forward to discussing various and sundry with you in the future.

[MADem]

83. There are a few "hot button" issues. You'll figure them out the longer you are here.

Religion is one, of course. I see no problem with dissecting the shit out of religions; I think that one should be more careful when dissecting the PEOPLE associated with particular religons. After all, history, family, tradition and culture all play a role as to what "club" you belong to on the weekend, after all.

But then, I am not a fan of organized religion. I don't need an 'operator' on an altar in a building, demanding money, to get me Jesus or anyone else on the line. I've separated from that tradition for a long, long, LONG time, so the pull of family and culture all tied up with 'church' doesn't push any buttons for me anymore. But I guess I can sort of empathize with those who do feel that angst. They probably DO need to get their head around the issue, and fish or cut bait, but who am I to give them a timetable?

One of the biggest freakshows you'll ever see here is in regard to, of all things, smoking...yes, the ingestion of tobacco products. Those threads get very dramatic--it's not quite "Line up those miserable puffers and shoot them dead!!!!" but it's close. Forget tolerance, or empathy for addiction--the hysteria is a bit like a car wreck--mangled, horrible, but it's hard to look away.

I don't care about smokers one way or another--it's their business. But I've learned to avoid those threads way more than these relatively tame religious ones--they get a bit psychotic at times....!!

[poverlay]

84. Sounds like you've been "burned" a few times! Yeah, I know better than to do the religious

discussion thing. I knew what could happen. I just can't help it. I love to antagonize people who don't pay attention. It's like catnip.
As a 4 month quit after 15+yrs smoker, I'll keep my eyes open for those smoking threads you mentioned. Thanks!

[Dorian Gray]

92. Congratulations on quitting, poverlay...

I quit two years ago on March 15th. It was difficult, but so worth it. :) I wish you continued success.

[poverlay]

97. Thanks so much. It's hard sometimes, but I'm extremely determined. n/t

[Dorian Gray]

100. It's VERY difficult!

But you can do it. :)

(Sorry this strayed off topic.... Now back to the regularly scheduled Mormon discussion!)

[Dorian Gray]

91. You have a very strong finger

on the pulse of why religion is often a hot bed topic, Mad. I think because we truly identify with it, as it's more than solely theological for us. It's cultural, familial. It's oftentimes our background. So many of us truly use it as an identity marker, than any attack on our religion seems to be a personal attack.

We all need to be a little less sensitive about valid criticisms of our faiths, and a little more sensitive about unfairly criticizing faiths other than the ones that we do embrace. (Or don't embrace!) :)

[MADem]

104. It's simply a function of age, you see!

I've had decades to think about it. The things you take as, dare I say, gospel, in your formative years, you tend to question as you hit those rebellious teen years, and then, the older and older you get, the more you're exposed to other cultures and beliefs, you start to see a thread or three (or more) of commonality in the practice of religion. The first thread is "My religion is best." The second thread is "Those OTHER guys have 'curious' practices." The third thread is "The PEOPLE who practice that OTHER religion have something wrong in their heads..."

I have this theory that, IF there is a supreme being or beings at all, then he or she or they figured there might be a need of more than one prophet to spread the word--because people always like a hometown hero, and they're less likely to listen to someone who doesn't share their appearance, their history or their culture.

[Dorian Gray]

90. To be fair...

some of your initial statements were very offensive to Mormons, and it might seem as though you were in a rush to offend and attack.

[Goblinmonger]

19. How many religions

don't you piss on then?

I mean, hey, I'm no fan of religion (shock to many, I know) but even I find this attack on Mormonism so frickin hilarious and hypocritical. So many of the people here who get their underwear in a bunch (funny I haven't heard the magic underwear brought up in this thread yet) because people have the gaul and audacity to actually *gasp* knock on mainstream Christianity just hop on the bash Mormonism bandwagon.

Absolutely amazing that I get people pissed at me for my slams on religion and then in another thread those same people that got pissed at me are shitting on some other religion without even a thought as to their hypocrisy.

[poverlay]

23. Oh I think they're all a bit daft, but I have a particular dislike of Mormonism due to a great deal

of personal experience. I'm otherwise an equal opportunity pisser.

...Actually saw the "magic underwear" a few posts up...

[Goblinmonger]

24. Oh Crap

I can't believe I missed the magic underwear reference.

I have nothing against you and sorry for any unintentional snark, but it just pisses me off that this forum is so protective of their own religions yet so quickly do they join the piss on this religion threads. At least you and I spread our urine equally amongst the lot.

[poverlay]

29. Oh no snarkiness taken, I've laughed at several of your statements and thank you for them.

I'm a liberal pisser.
(uuhhh ... I don't think that came out right...)

[Dorian Gray]

26. You know... you are right.

There is much about Mormonism that I don't believe or that I find "strange" or "irrational." But, then I know that you can say the same about my faith. I AM guilty of mocking Scientology at times, and that's something that I should reconsider. Having said that, I have no problem with debate about Mormonism (or any other religion, including mine, Roman Catholicism), but I find the mocking of it to be somewhat disturbing. It's not fair, particularly when so many of us don't like our own faiths to be mocked.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

115. And I am one of them

I once really splatted all over Scientologists and was called to task by some and realized they were correct. It was a realy eye-opener for me. Tolerance is a continuum and I believe it is a learned thing.

Although, here is the parodox, in some things I have gotten less tolerant as I age. Like don't try playing pencil break in my classroom. I'll jump over the table and CLEAN YOUR CLOCK!

[Meshuga]

21. I'm no mormon

But the mormons who knock on my door (and I politely send them away) or the ones who I've met through work and school are usually really nice people.

I'm sure there are bad apples in every group but I haven't personally met a mormon bad apple yet.

[poverlay]

30. I've met many and gotten to know scores. They came across very nice to me as well. Then

I found out otherwise. Then I researched their religion. Then I started paying very close attention. My conclusions are my own and you're welcome to debate them, but personal anecdote is not going to be very helpful to me.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

117. My experience as a teacher has been the opposite

Over the years I have taught many, many Mormon children, and many from large families. I found them to be very hard-working, earnest, sincere, and they have all gone on to good careers. I keep up with quite a few of them. Yes, a few evangelized to me and I used it as an opportunity to learn more about their day-to-day living of their faith...things like family night, avoiding caffeine, tobacco, etc.

I can honestly say that I have never taught a Mormon child who does not stand out in my mind as a top kid. Quite a few went into the Service Academies.

And it just completely fascinates me how and why this happens. What are they doing right? I just don't know. For all I know they might be secret loonies and sexually repressed and all, but they made it through school with good grades, through college and got degrees that led to careers, and they have found good marriages. But then I don't live out in Utah? I don't know....

[Evoman]

35. You know something...I sympathize with you. I don't understand why mormons are picked on

more than other religious people. The mormons I've met have always been friendly people. I really don't understand how so many religious people demand respect for their own beliefs, then go and bash other religions with no less credibility.

[struggle4progress]

67. Apologies: it really wasn't my intent to start a "piss on Mormons" thread.

[Goblinmonger]

20. Could the theists in the crowd please

give me a list of those religions that it is completely OK to mock in this forum and which it is not OK. I just want to know when I should expect to get flamed for comments about religion and when I can sit back and relax because I'll be in the majority when I comment about religion.

On edit: My list so far:

OK to Mock: Mormons, Krishnas (not sure why), Witnesses, Fundamental Christians, Scientologists

Not OK to Mock: Mainstream Christianity including major Protestant religions including Lutheran, liberal Baptists, Methodists; Catholics (though only sometimes and even the Christians are split on whether catholics are OK or not OK to mock--seems to be who the mockery comes from but that is another thread and another time).

Could go either way: Jewish, Muslim

[bryant69]

22. That would be an interesting list to peruse.

Bryant

[poverlay]

31. Yes I would like to know that too. For example can we make fun of the "Giant

Flying Spaghetti Monster" for being all tendrilly, or would that make baby Jesus cry?

[Evoman]

37. Add episcopalian/anglican to your not mock list..because a church started so that

a king could divorce his wife should obviously not be mocked.

[MADem]

57. Well, I knew a few Episcopalians who did their own mocking

The Church of the Holy Checkbook....the social nature of some of the wealthier congregations...they'll do it to themselves before anyone else can.

I knew some who graded their pastor on how swift he got through the service, so that they could go to the late one and STILL make it to this great restaurant that did a mean Sunday brunch before they closed off the line!

And the kicker was, the pastor was IN on the joke, and would often join them for brunch...!

They all were sort of "Thurston Howell the Third" types, if you know what I mean...!

[Dorian Gray]

40. I hear you...

and I know it's not particularly helpful of me, but I agree with you. There should be less mocking, more understanding or debate. I can disagree with the tenets of other people's religion without being snarky or rude, and I would like to be afforded the same consideration. I've been guilty of being rude about Scientology in the past (though I don't know if that's true on this site). I realize that there are many good people who are adherents to that religion, as there are to The Church of the Latter Day Saints, and I shouldn't make blanket judgements. It's rude, hypocritical and wrong.

Saying that, however, doesn't mean that I can't debate certain points that I either find wrong or don't understand. That is very different than mocking.

[Goblinmonger]

42. I have no problem with mocking

People can mock me all they want. I am all for a full and free debate of theological positions. The problem I have is with the hypocrisy of so many in there that will freely mock or say Mormonism is stupid and then get all pissed when I say that Christianity is stupid for whatever reason we are talking about. That is the part that drives me nuts.

Are there things about Mormonism that strike me as kind of foolish? Hell, yeah. Is that different than any other religion? Hell, no. I, mean, seriously, it isn't crazy to think that Jesus rose from the dead and walked around talking to followers in the Middle East, but doing that among the native americans in the US--that's fucking crazy. It's not crazy to think that God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son and to think that God had no problem with Lot getting his daughters pregnant, but to think that God is OK with multiple wives--batshitcrazy mofos.

[Dorian Gray]

85. I see.

The more people you mock, the less hypocritical it is. :D

Seriously, mock away. I prefer to not mock. But, my intent isn't to make people feel silly for the choices they make, but rather to learn from their experience why they make those choices. So, different strokes and all that jazz. :)

[MADem]

48. Well, if you are going to mock one, you may as well mock all.

The trick though, is to mock the beliefs, and not the people practicing them.

Now, there's a challenge, right there....!

I'm just not a fan of organized religion, any of them, and I'm glad of it, actually...

[Dorian Gray]

93. MADem...

you seem quite respectful in your "mocking." Seriously, it does make a huge difference if you mock the tenets of the religion or the hierarchy rather than the people.

[MADem]

116. Like I always say

Where you stand depends on where you sit.

If you're sitting amongst a family that has a strong tie to a religion, and it defines their waking hours most days, that's what you know and how you grow. And these are the people that support you, feed you, nurture you, provide you with the basic tools to interact in society...how are you, sitting where you sit, to know any better? And even when you do develop critical thinking skills, there's those emotional tugs--you reject 'the faith' and you reject the family...because you miss out on a big chunk of family culture if you turn your back on that part. And plus, you make the old folks unhappy!

It's tough for some people, when they realize they just don't buy the bullshit. Some simply HAVE to force their opinion on everyone, and make a stand about the matter--that makes them feel good, but it makes the Family Holy Rollers feel like shit. The smart ones just "go along" and fake it, or at least keep their mouths shut and 'do the minimum' when they return home for visits, to keep peace in the family. Yep, it's deceitful, but there's no need to upset people who aren't going to change their ways because one or more of the youngsters has seen the light.

I'm a fan of little white lies in these sorts of circumstances!

[Az]

82. A person's religion does not affect my opinion of them. It is their ideals that determines it

A person can be a fundamentalist and as long as they see the sense of the wall of separation and tolerance of all beliefs then I can stand by their side. If an atheist were to stand up and demand that atheism be taught in school I would reject them just as I reject any religious politician that demands that their religion be taught in public school. It has nothing to do with the origins of their beliefs. It has everything to do with how they practice their beliefs.