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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:37 PM
Original message
JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. We now have E. Howard Hunt on record saying he helped murder JFK
And, of course, the media (beyond "alternative media") has said nothing.

Other than the Rolling Stone ...
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/13893143/the...
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GleninDublin Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Fascinating article
Thanks for the link, melody.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Sen Robert Bennett (R-UT) and the Mullen Company
Thanks melody. It's a good thing we don't have to rely on corporate media for this information. There's a good story about the true mission of the media here and more here. Of course the notable exception in this case is that excellent Rolling Stone article you linked.

Click here for a review and some further background of The Last Confessions of E. Howard Hunt.

That review noted one clarification from this part of the story:
1970, after being repeatedly molested by a teacher, he broke down and told his mother what was going on. She told his father. And rumor had it that E. Howard came up to St. James with a carload of guns to make the teacher disappear. "He was really, really pissed off," says Saint. "He wanted to kill." In any case, at the school, neither the teacher nor St. John was ever seen again.

That same year, his father retired from the CIA after being relegated to the backwaters for his role in the Bay of Pigs. He went to work as a writer for a PR firm. He was bored and missed the hands-on action of the CIA.The following year, however, his lawyer pal Chuck Colson, who was special counsel to Nixon, called him up with an invitation to join the president's Special Investigations Unit as a kind of dirty-tricks consultant. He signed on. He really thought he was going places...

Here's more on that "PR" firm he "retired" to...
Robert Bennett of the Mullen Company (Hughes PR firm, E. Howard Hunts ostensible employer, and a CIA front), and Bennett reported back to his CIA handler that Woodward was suitably grateful for the information and ran the information without exposing Bennett as the source. If Mark Felt was Deep Throat, he was not Woodwards only source...

So aside from the obvious edification and enlightenment. The real history is infinitely more interesting than the sanitized crap we get in the media.
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EPIC1934 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. About Bennett- important also in today'sBailout Bills as Senate Banking Leader
Ja Genau. Bennett is one more Very Interesting Morman, in the post-Hughes Strip- mining of Las Vegas and DC. For a book that I have nicknamed The Nipple of Intrigue see Jim Hougan's book, Secret Agenda. It is about Watergate. I am a Watergate resisionist. I do not agree with the line being pushed by "publishable left" ie Counterpunch, that all Watergate revisionism is Republican rewriting. I think there is a lot of evidence that Watergate was a hit from the right on Nixon.

Reguardless, Secret Agenda is must reading!

It helps us understand the multiple meanings behind Nixons phrase "the Bay of Pigs Thing" on the so called smoking gun tape. It also has the footnotes that are vacations in their own right, with very low airfare.


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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-04-09 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
33. Yeah heres another confession Dallas Motorcade Cop.
Edited on Wed Nov-04-09 01:10 AM by CTKA-Probe
Hunts confession is interesting it proved what we already knew lol. But the Johnson angle is utterly bollocks lol. Loyal to the end was our boy. His son comes across as being something of a weird guy as well. Not 100 percent on either of them.

Heres a young fellow from New Zealand who interviewed HB McLain about the police Dictabelt that led the HSCA to go along with conspiracy.

Our intrepid Kiwi got a little more than he bargained for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zp6Ciyq_cQ

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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. Thanks, CTKA-Probe
:hi:
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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. Anytime MinM.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
4. Here's a review of JFK and the Unspeakable
Edited on Fri Aug-01-08 01:18 PM by MinM
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EPIC1934 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. This books Knocks out Chomsky's JFK Bashing!
These are very wise recommendations. As for JFK and the Unspeakable, there is no more important book. It is a TKO of Chomsky and Cockburn and the foundation funded (controlled) left. I beg you to read this book. Look at what Daniel ELLSBERG AND MARCUS RASKIN have to say about it:


Douglass presents, brilliantly, an unfamiliar yet thoroughly convincing account of a series of creditable decisions of John F. Kennedyat odds with his initial Cold War stancethat earned him the secret distrust and hatred of hard-liners among the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the CIA. Did this suspicion and rage lead directly to his murder by agents of these institutions, as Douglass concludes? Many readers who are not yet convinced of this beyond reasonable doubt by Douglasss prosecutorial indictment will find themselves, perhapslike myselffor the first time, compelled to call for an authoritative criminal investigation. Recent events give all the more urgency to learning what such an inquiry can teach us about how, by whom, and in whose interests this country is run. --Daniel Ellsberg, author, Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers


Douglass writes with moral force, clarity, and the careful attention to detail that will make JFK and the Unspeakable a sourcebook for many years to come, for it provides us with the stubborn facts needed to rebuild a constitutional democracy within the United States.--Marcus Raskin, co-founder, Institute for Policy Studies


With penetrating insight and unswerving integrity, Douglass probes the fundamental truths about JFKs assassination. If, he contends, humanity permits those truths to slip into history ignored and undefined it does so at its own peril. By far the most important book yet written on the subject. --Gaeton Fonzi, former Staff Investigator, US House Select Committee on Assassinations



"JFK and the Unspeakable is an exceptional achievement. Douglass has made the strongest case so far in the JFK assassination literature as to the Who and the Why of Dallas. The conjunction of unrestrained elements in cold war Americadefense industry elites, Pentagon planners, and the heads of the intelligence communitywere the forces that led inexorably to Dallas and the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.--Gerald McKnight, author, Breach of Trust: How the Warren Commission Failed the Nation and Why


A remarkable book: devastating in its documented indictment of the dark forces that have long deformed the public life of this country, while also illuminating JFKs final vision of world peace and documenting beyond reasonable doubt the unspeakable assassination of our last partially admirable president. This book should be required reading for every American citizen.Richard Falk, Milbank Professor of International Law Emeritus, Princeton Univers

In JFK and the Unspeakable Jim Douglass steadily guides us toward a strategy of peace. By dramatizing JFKs remarkable conversion away from a U.S. foreign policy based on military threat and force, Douglass holds forth hope for current generations to similarly dismantle our addiction to war. Douglasss dedication to nonviolence could have salvific effects as people ponder this astonishing book.Kathy Kelly, Voices for Creative Nonviolence


A remarkable achievement, outstanding even in an overcrowded field. It is profoundly conceived, researched, considered, argued, and written. Douglass shows persuasively how Kennedys innovative steps in foreign policy produced dangerous opposition within his own national security establishment. Not all will agree with his detailed speculation as to what happened in Dallas. But Douglasss large picture of Americas political agony is, I believe, incontrovertible and certain to last.--Peter Dale Scott, author Deep Politics and the Death of JFK


This books story of JFK and the unspeakable is a stunning mix of political thriller and meticulous scholarship. Even as it points persuasively to rogue powers at work in the U.S. military-industrial complex, it also witnesses to the power of spirit, inspiring prophetic voices like Thomas Mertons, turning a president like John Kennedy toward peace, thus also enabling readers to see into the current deep structure of U.S. war and empire. Douglasss book offers a goldmine of information and is indispensable for building prophetic spirit and hope.Mark Lewis Taylor, Princeton Theological Seminary


This book is the most current event you can imagine. It makes it clearer than any book I have ever read WHY JFK was killed and how this murder is inseperable from the death of public sphere that we are experiencing right now.

It is the most important book I have ever read.
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EPIC1934 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Truman on CIA 12/22/63!! CENSORED FROM HISTORY!!
Also check out this quote from Harry Truman which I found in this book for the first time:

The first I heard of it was as quoted here in James W. Douglass' incredible book JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters. -------------- On December 22, 1963, one month to the day after JFK's assassination, Former President Truman published a very carefully worded article in the Washington Post warning the American people about the danger of the CIA taking over the government. He wrote: "I think it has become necessary to take another look at the purpose and operations of our Central Intelligence Agency--CIA...for some time I have been disturbed by the way the CIA has been diverted from its original assignment. It has become an operational and at time a policy-making arm of the Government. This has led to trouble and may have compounded our difficulties in several explosive areas. We have grown up as a nation, respected for our free institutions and for our ability to maintain a free and open society. THere is something about the CIA has been functioning that is casting a shadow over our historical position and I feel that we need to correct it" (note 678, Chapter 6) Trumans' warning, with its ominous post-assassination timing, was greeted by total silence (note 679) Had it been noticed and heeded the , the controversial ex-president might have been accused more justly this time of trying to abolish the CIA, since he did indeed want to abolish its covert activities. President Harry Truman had himself established the CIA in 1947, but not he thought, to do what he saw it doing in the fall of 1963. He restated his radical critique of the CIA in a letter written six months later (note 680, Chapter 6). The managing editor of Look magazine had sent Truman the latest Look featuring a piece on the CIA. Truman wrote back: "Thank you for the copy of Look with the article on the Central Intelligence Agency. It is, I regret to say, not true to the facts in many respects. The CIA was set up by me for the sole purpose of getting all the available information to the president. It was not intended to operate as an international agency engaged in strange activities" (note 681, Chapter 6) (pp.332-333, JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters) ------------ "It has become an operational and at times a policy-making arm of the Government. " Well Douglass book is full of examples of this generalization by Truman.

This is not only an "assassination" book. Rather it is a history book that clearly shows the STRUCTURAL THREAT that JFK posed for the faction of our rulers who favored War, Oil and and defense contractors instead of investments in the Civilian economy. The author shows how JFK represented a tripple threat of peace with Vietnam, Cuba and the USSR. He was killed so that the Cold War-- with all of its cover for US oil and defense contracting and the financial sector taking over our entire economy-- could live and spread greater disparity between the super rich and the middle class and working class.
Edit/Delete Message
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EPIC1934 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-08 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. The Real Bay of Pigs story
Check out these words of JFK on the book Seven Days in May. They were uttered after the Bay of Pigs but before the Cuban Missile Crisis:

.... JFK said he would read the book. Hed did so that night. The next day
Kennedy discussed with his friends the possibility of thier seeing such a
coup in the United States. Consider that he said these words after the failed
Bay of Pigs invasion and before the Cuban Missile Crisis:

'It's possible. It could happen in this country, but the conditions would
have to be just right. If, for example, the country had a young President,
and he had a Bay of Pigs, there would be a certain unseasiness. Maybe
the military would do a little criticizing behind his back, but this would be
written of as the ususal military dissatisfaction with civilian control. Then
if there were another Bay of Pigs, the reaction of the country would be,
'Is he too young and inexperienced?' The military would almost feel that
it was their patriotic obligation to stand ready to preserve the integrity of
the nation, an only God knows just what segment of democracy they
would be defending if they overthrew the elected establishment'

Pausing a moment, he went on, "Then, if there were a third Bay of Pigs
it could happen.' Waiting again until his listeners absorbed his meaning,
he concluded the an old Navy phrase, "But it won't happen on my watch."

On another occasion Kennedy said of the novel's plot about a few military
commanders taking over the country, 'I know a couple who might wish
they could.' The statement is cited by biographer Theodore Sorenson
as a joke. However, John Kennedy used humor in pointe ways, and
Sorenson's preceding sentence is not a joke: "Communications between
Chiefs of Staff and their Commander in Chif remained unsatisfactory for
a large part of his term."

Director John Frankenheimer was encouraged by President Kennedy to
film Seven Days In May 'as a warning to the republic.' Frankenheimer
said, 'The Pentagon didn't want it done. Kennedy said that when we
wanted to shoot at the Chite House he would conveniently go to
Hyannis Port that weekend. (JFK and the Unspeakable, pp12,13)

Now cut to Douglass overview of the Bay of pigs:

Four decades after the Bay of Pigs, we have learned that the CIA
scenario to trap Kennedy was more concrete than Dulles admitted
in his handwritten notes. A conference on the Bay of Pigs was held
in Cuba March 23-25, 2001, which included 'ex-CIA operatives, retired
military commanders, scholars, and journalists.' News analyst Daniel
Schorr reported on National Public Radio that 'from the many hours of
talk and heaps of decassified secret documents' he had gained one
new perception on the Bay of Pigs:

'It was that the CIA overlords of the invasion, director Allen Dulles and
deputy Richard Bissell, had their own plan of how to bring the United
States into the conflict. It appears that they never really expected an
uprising agaist Castro when the liberators landed as described in their
memos to the White House. What they did expect was that the invaders
would establish and secure a beachhead, announce the creation of a
counterrevolutionary governemnt and appeal for aid from the United
States and the Organization of American States. The assumption was
that President Kennedy, who had emphatically banned direct American
involvement, would be forced by pubic opinion to come to the aid of the
returning patriots. American forces, probably Marines, would come in
to expand the beachhead.

' In effect, President Kennedy was the target of a CIA covert operation
that collapsed when the invasion collapsed' (JFK and the Unspeakable:
Why He Died and Why It Matters, p. 14-15)

Remember this the next time you read in the Corporate Media that the CIA is merely the tool of the president. It was not the last covert action the CIA
would take without presidential authorization. After reading Douglass' book one wonders if it even made the final dozen.
_________________
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EPIC1934 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. On the 11-2-63 Chicago Plot: AMAZING stuff

Then there are radically new insights into the National Security State provided in assassination research like this ON THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE CIA AND CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER WHO WAS INVOLVED IN BOTH THE NOVEMBER CHICAGO 1963 INCIDENT AND THE LATER 1969 MURDER OF BLACK PANTHER LEADER FRED HAMPTON UNDER WHAT MIGHT BE MISLABELED COINTELPRO--check this out; unbelievable!
Sorry for the choppy type, but it sort of matches the choppy material!
------------------
Thomas Arthur valle was quickly identified from intelligence sources as an ex-Marine who was a "disaffiliated member of the John
Birch Society,"....Vallee was also descirbed as a loner, a paranoind schizophrenic, and a gun collector. He fit perfectly the 'lone nut'
profile that would late be used fo characterize ex-Marine Lee Harvey Oswald.

Only after two secret service agents surveilling Vallee found an M1 rifle, a carbine rifle, and twenty-five hundred rounds of ammunition, were
Chicago police officers Daniel Groth and Peter Schurla assigned the task of surveilling Vallee on Novermber 2nd. Interestingly, Douglass notes that
both of these officers were destined for

prominanat roles in police intelligence activites. In 1975, when a reporter tried unsuccessfully to interview Peter Schurla
about Vallee's arrest,
Schurla was a high-level intelligence official at Chicago police headquarters. His companion, Daniel Groth's career on intellignec had by then
become more public and more notorious tha Schurla's

At 4:30 A.M. on december 4, 1969, six years after the arrest of Thomas Arthur Vallee, Sergeant Daniel Groth commanded the police team that broke
into the the Chicago aprtment of Black Panther leaders Fred Hampton and Mark Clark. The heavily armed officers shot both men to death. ...Groth
(later) acknowledged under oath that his team of officers had carried out the assault of Fred Hampton and Mark Clark at the specific request of the
FBI (JFK and the Unspeakable, p. 203-204)

Douglass goes on to note, however that Northeastern Illinois Prof. dan Stern researched Daniel groths background and found that Groth had taken
several "training leaves" from the Chicago Police department to go to Washington D.C. where Groth' underwent speacialized counterintelligence
training under the auspices of both the FBI and the CIA.

The Chicago Police Department and the Los Angeles Police department seem to have had the closest ties with the CIA. They were pioneer members of the Law Enforcemnt Intelligence Union, a CIA -police liason program that was seen as a rival to similar and older liason-programs that the FBI had
established with most other police departments. The LEIU was formed in 1956. This, of course, does not preclude other CIA-Police programs, but Los Angeles and Chicago seem to stand out as the oldest and largest.

There's lots more on this in Douglass' book. Not bad for the first page I fliped open

One has to wonder if Groth and Schurla knew about Vallee before they were tipped off by the Secret Service. It might sound like too little compartmentalization if they did, but given their earlier involvement with the CIA, and Schurla's later involvement in polical murder, it
seems at least a possiblility.


More info on Thomas Vallee(see first post). Note the similarities to Lee Harvey Oswald.

*Thomas Arthur Vallee was wounded in the Korean War. An FBI teletype
on Vallee the week after Kennedy's Assassination stated that the ex-
Marine had a prior history of mental commitment, "allegedly has a metal
plate in his scalp," and "recieved complete disability from the V. A"
(footnote 165 chapter 6)
* a few days after being discharged from the Marines, Vallee suffered
a second head injury, this one follwed by a "complete rehabilitation
program, learning all over again how to walk, talk and hold a knife
and fork (note 167)
* Soon after he returned home his father died of a heart attack. An
Uncle accused Thomas of killing his father, driving him to death by
his errant behavior. His sister said Vellee felt deeply guilty about his
father's death. "After the accident," she said, "my brother was never
the same again".
* Vallee told invesitgative reported Edwin Black that he had been
assigned by the Marines to a U-2 base in Japan, Camp Otsu.(note
172)" Vallee thereby came under the control of the CIA, which
commanded the U-2 just as Oswald would come under the CIA's
control as a radar operator at another CIA U-2 base, in Japan.
* Like Oswald Vallee was involved with a camp being used as a
training ground by the CIA for Cuban exiles in a plan to assassinate
Fidel Castro.
* Vallee's close CIA connections, like Oswald's help to explain how
he too, came to be employed at a site over a presidential parade
route.

"In August 1963 as Oswald was preparing to move from New Orleans back
to Dallas, Vallee moved from New York City back to Chicago (note 175
Chapter 6) Just as Oswald got a job in a warehouse right over Kennedy'
future motercade route in Dallas, so, too did Vallee get a job in a
warehouse right over Kennedy's motorcade route in Chicago. Like
Oswald in Dallas (before his summer in New Orleans), Vallee found
employment as a printer. He was hired by IPP Litho-Plate, located at
625 West Jackson Boulevard in Chicago."

The author, James W. Douglass, describes the view from the roof of
625 West Jackson:

"From its roof I could look down and over to where JFK's presidential
limousine had been scheduled to make a slow turn up from the
Northwest Expressway (today ironically the Kennedy Expressway)
exit ramp onto West Jackson on November 2, 1963. It was analogous
to the slow curve the limousine woul make in Dallas in front of the
Texas School Book Depository three weeks later. In the Chicago
motorcade, after proceeding one more block, President Kennedy woul
have passed by Vallee's workplace, just as he would in fact pass by
Oswald's workplace in Dallas three weeks later

Vallee's location at IPP Litho-Plate actually gave him a nearer, clearer
view ofthe November 2 Chicago motorcade than Oswald's so-
called "sniper's nest" did onf the November 22nd Dallas Motercade"
(JFK and the Unspeakable:Why He Died and Why It Matters, p. 206)


RE: USE OF JAMA FOR DISINFORMATION ABOUT Dr. CRENSHAW AND HIS
OBSERVATIONS ABOUT HOW THE SECRET SERVICE PRESSURED THE PARKLAND HOSPITAL DOCTORS TO CHANGE THEIR TESTIMONY.

Along similar lines see this interesting comment about another such professional journal, and its use in disinformation, and the scattering of dissenting opinions about the JFK autopsy. Until reading this I hadawlays thought Phi Slamma JAMA was an allusion to an old center for the Hous.
Rockets. Apparently its origins date to another Mute Yale Collective, this group of fervent youthfull ideologues being designed for premeds who dreamed of one day trading in reconstructive autopsies:

In April 1992, Crenshaw same out with his book JFK: Conspiracy of Silence which revealed what he had seen of President Kennedy's
wounds, contradicting the Warren Report. The book rose to number one on the NYT best-seller list. Crenshaw was then attacked in
print by the director of the FBI's Dallas office, who claimed "the documentation does not show that the doctor was involved in any way,"
and by a former Warren Commsssion attorney, who said the press should demand "fulll financial disclusure because
hundreds of thousands and millions have been made of the assassination." Then, to his surprise, Crenshaw was denounced by the
prestigious Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA)

In in its may 27, 1992, issue, JAMA published two article suggsting Dr. Crenshaw was not even in Trauma Room One with President
Kennedy. JAMA's editor promoted the articles by a New York press conference that revieved massive press coverage. Dr. Cren-
shaw submitted to JAMA a series of articles and letters responding to the charge that he was a liar. He pointed out that in testimony
before the Warren Commission five different doctors and nurses had specifically mentioned seeing him working with them to revive
the president. They made it clear Crenshaw had been in Trauma Room One, doing exactly what he said he did in Conspiracy of Silence.

All of Dr. Crenshaw's written efforts to set the record straight on JAMA's pages were rejected by the editor. Crenshaw then sued the
journal. In 1994, therough court -ordered mediation, JAMA agreed to pay Dr. Crenshaw and his co-author Gary Shaw, a sum of money.
JAMA also agreed to publish their rebuttal article, which eventually appeared in an abbreviated version. Then JAMA published still another
piece attacking Crenshaw, Shaw and their book (p. 311, JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He DIed and Why It Matters)
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Obama - following in JFK's missteps?
Thanks, EPIC1934. Good stuff. Hopefully Obama won't make some of the same mistakes that JFK did.

But as Lisa Pease points out below, like too many, he may have an incorrect read on the Real History:

Obama - following in JFK's missteps?

http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com/2008/12/obama-f...

Another interesting interview here:
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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #13
43. Hmmm yeah scary
I think he saw what happened or was told and look at the sorry state.

The barstads cut him off at the knees. Obamas terified of something alright.
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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-04-09 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #7
32. Its not Just JFK bashing its RFK to check this out.
Lisa Pease has just written a fantastic piece

destroying the utter trash written about Bobby Kennedy by a one C Dave Heymann.

Bobby and Jackie: A Love Story.

Watch this guy get destroyed. He's an unrepentant liar and charlatan.

http://www.ctka.net/reviews/heymann.html

Oh and listen to her here on Black Op Radio discussing her review.

http://www.blackopradio.com/archives2009.html

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Way2go Donating Member (121 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
36. Their venal hypocrisy undermines the perception of them as being

true progressives. Cockburn, Chompsky, Goodman, Hamsher and all the rest.
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Chalco Donating Member (817 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-08 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. I finished the book a couple of days ago.
Edited on Sat Aug-02-08 09:52 PM by Chalco
This guy has so much evidence. People are finally talking. The CIA did it. But..who told the CIA to do it. Who was the mastermind? Any thoughts?

Also, after reading the book and then this guy Ivins is accused of being the anthrax killer and then he "suicides", it's clear the CIA was behind the anthrax thing as well. Which then leads me to 911. Who really did that.

I know I'm starting to sound like a kook but the JFK book is so well documented that it is clear that we have no idea what is being done by the government. It does not work for us, it has its own agenda.

Just rambling.

I loved the book. When I read JFK's AU speech at the end, in my mind I changed Soviet Union to the Middle East or Iraq or Iran and it all fits for today. We've lost 45 years of peace because they killed JFK. We are a nation of assholes.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. A-B-C-Dulles Bros.
Personally, I'd start with the Dulles Brothers:

From the Alger Hiss Case (The Original WMD), the U-2 Spy Plane Incident, to The Whole Bay of Pigs Thing, wrapping up less than a month after JFK's death with Allen Dulles giving this audacious speech at Harvard.. The Dulles Brothers were big players in American Policy and Politics.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/MinM/75


Give an assist to Angleton, Bissel, and the Cabell Brothers.

With the dirty work falling to guys like these?
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/MinM/37

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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Don't forget Eleanor Dulles, a state department honcho.
If you're going to accuse the Dulleses. Get all of them.
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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-04-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
34. FBI Jim Di Eugenio Deals to Bugliosi.
I agree with you MinM Dulles was pretty much central to proceedings. It looks like Helms Angelton and Phillips were key ingredients in the operation.

Heres another good piece from Jim Di's expose of Vince Bugliosi's appalling 'Reclaiming History'

Heres Part 7. http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_7_review.html


The other parts are in the top right hand corner of the screen.


It's eventually gonna be 10 pieces. Enjoy me Hearty's.

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Way2go Donating Member (121 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Here's some info on V.B. that is really eye-opening & little known

http://tatelabianca.blogspot.com/2006/06/bugging-instal...


Hint: V.B. is not trustworthy. See for yourself what this man has done.
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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. yeah cool i got hold of that in another post which i will put back up cheers mate.
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Way2go Donating Member (121 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
38. Take a wild guess. Not saying I know exactly WHO, but...

much as you know, you could surely make an educated, highly probable estimate of at least who some of the guilty parties are.
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TheCentepedeShoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
14. I told the guy at
the library checkout today that they just HAD to get this book. I had waited awhile after it came out to see in the online catalog if the library would put in on order (ok, a couple of weeks, I get impatient) before purchasing it. Then I had to order it because neither Hastings (close to the house) or B & N (out where the earth ends) seemed to want to have it in stock.
I am re-reading it and that reminded me to look for the book written by the Secret Service agent Abraham Bolden that Douglass talks about. Checked the online catalog to see if the library had it. Yep, it's called The Echo from Dealey Plaza. The lib has a display with JFK books, but Bolden's wasn't among them. Online catalog said it was in New Books, but had to track it down in, well, Old Books.
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EPIC1934 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Unspeakably Censored?
Thanks for demanding that your library get this book. it is not about JFK. It is the core sampling that is the Elbow of the Cold War. There is no other book that I have ever read that so clearly fixes blame on the CIA AND so clearly is AS MUCH A WORK OF HISTORY AS IT IS book about the conspiracy.

I have been promoting this book with every single spare second that I have since June. It has cracked the Amazon top 1000 when it first came out an the author was touring, but it did so again, this past November and a couple of miliseconds this December. Moreover it has spend more than 80% of its time inside the top 4,000.

Now why do I mention these sordid marketing details?

Well, I have noticed that NO BOOKSTORES IN NYC carry this book.!!! Thats right none of them! Moreover, I have also noticed that certain "leftish" bookstores (whatever that means these days)
do not even carry this book even though they carry EVERY OTHER JFK BOOK EVEN THOUGH IT SELLS MUCH LESS. What these other books have in common is that they are all Stage 2 books ie like Waldrons blame the Mafia instead of the CIA.

I have also noticed that even long time Lone Nutters like Cockburn in the Nation, have retreated from the Lone Nutter position in recent months. The lone nut view is no longer tennable, for those who have read anythin at all, so it seems like the blame the mob is becomming the new fall back position.

It is with all this in mind that I ask all who have read this book to help me spread the news. I have been posting mostly on big newspaper websites. like stltoday, the Kansas City stars etc. I have posted on more than fifty newspaper sites around the country. IF WE CAN GET EVEN ONE OR TWO MORE PEOPLE HELPING OUT I REALLY THINK WE COULD MAKE THIS BOOK TAKE OFF ON ITS OWN ACCORD. The critical mass has already been laid.

This book is dangerous for the political status quo of this country. It is about right now, not just 1963. I have been using the Daniel Ellsberg blurb as a wedge into the NYT reading crowd: they know who Ellsberg and Raskin are, so they cannont "flying saucer" this book they way they have been so trained since around 1993.

On another note, have you seen the New book family of Secrets by Russ Baker. This book is AMAZING ME. It is going to be number one by thursday and it actually SEEMS LIKE A REAL BOOK ABOUT THE BUSHS AND THE CIA. THERE IS NEW STUFF HERE ABOUT H.W. IN DALLAS ON 11-22-63.!!!!!!!! Please invesigate this one, also
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EPIC1934 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Russ Baker's Family of Secrets
Am now on page 150 of Family of Secrets. WOW!!!! This is an incredible book. I cannot believe all the new information on H.W Bush and 11-22-63! Unbelieveable, and this guy will not be easy to tinfoilhat cencor because he is credentialled upt the kazoodles.MUST READ!!
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EPIC1934 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Unputdownable
Edited on Sun Dec-28-08 09:21 AM by EPIC1934
This Russ Baker book is the most unputdownable i have ever picked up !!!!

I cannot BELIEVE WHAT IS IN HERE!!!!!!!!!!!! POWERFUL IS NOT QUITE THE WORD. CORE IS.

The Great NONO in the debate over the power of the presdecies is Does the President REALLY control the permanent Intelligence and military bureacracies. Even great writers like Chalmers Johnson are permitted to say what they do on condition that they toe the mantra-line: the prez is in control of these agencies amen.

Well read THE MOST IMPORTANT BOOK ON AMERICAN POLITICS IN FORTY YEARS. Russ Bakers Family of Secrets. This is not just one more book on the Bush Dynasty. No Mantra here!

See what Bill Moyers has to say about Russ Bakers abilities as a reporter. The Woodwards That Be are going to attack this like Dresden's Twin, but this guy's credentials have the ability to protect him from Major League Insult. MUST. A necessary rescrambling of the last fifty years of US history. Seatbelts necessary; no children under 5 feet six inches.
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EPIC1934 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. IN A DEMOCRACY THIS BOOK WOULD BE NUMBER ONE BY NOW
----This book is so sinuous and eclectic that it is unusually difficult to capture its brilliance in any one snippet. Let me just for now say that THERE IS MORE HERE ON THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE JFK ASSASSINATION AND WATTERGATE THAN ANY OTHER BOOK. MOST GOOD WATERGATE BOOKS-- READ ALMOST ANY BESIDES STANLY KUTLERS mention the connection here and there. This book by following the sneaky H.W. as we HAVE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE -- the sub rosa H.W. of the sixties and seventies BETWEEN the positions we do know about--uses the thread to tie JFK and Watergate AS NEVER EVER BEFORE. I know that impossible to put down is a cliche but at this point I am reduced to this. It is the hardest to put down book I have ever experienced. Touches on things you know but ALWAYS in a new angle.

This book will be hammered. Please start reading it in a bookstore and when you finish it at home tell YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS. THIS BOOK IS NOT ALLOWED ACCESS LIKE DISSIDENT BOOKS AT AN EARLIER STAGE OF US CAPITALISM-- FOR EXAMPLE SIX SECONDS IN DALLAS WHICH WAS ALLOWED TO BECOME A BEST SELLER IN 1960. IF WE DO NOT DO THE EXTRA WORK THE TRUTH WILL NEVER OUT.
------------

Haig's rapid career rise, from the lowest third of his class at West Point to positions in a succession of Democratic and Republican administrations
starting with JFK's, benefited in part from sponsorship by Joseph Califano Jr., a powerful Washington attorney who served in both the Kennedy
and Johnson administrations and was considered a close ally of LBJ's Washington Post chair and publisher Katherine Graham initially brought
Califano and his law partner Edward Bennett Williams together and the two attorneys spoke of lunching frequently on Saturdays with managing editor
Ben Bradlee or "Other pals form the Post" Complicating matters and illuminating these tangled alliances, Califano served as counsel for both the
Post and the democartaic National Committee-- the very entity purportedly victimized by the president's men. As secretary of the Army under
LBJ, Califano had been responsible for looking after Veterans of the Bay of Pigs invasion,along with two of his aides: Haig and Alexander Butterfield
------------ (FROM Family of Secrets)
Would either Haig or Califano have been aware of Morales' siphoning of the Bay of Pigs Veterans? Would either have known of Morales directly?
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EPIC1934 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-09 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Helms Not McCone(1963) Helms-Shackley Not Turner (1979)
To the Cold War Establishment, Ngo Dinh Diem was becoming disposable. Washinton's Cold War leaders had been divide for some time over the merits of retaining Diem as thier client democratic" head of state for the Vietnam War. However as a result of Diem's disaterous repression of the Buddhists, the factions were moving toward consensus. It was becoming obvious that Diem, an incompetent despot had to go. Kennedy was under mounting pressure from the more liberal side of his government, the State Department, to end Diem's flagrantly authoritarian rule by a coup. In that respect. State's leading coup advocates, Harriman and Hilsman, had put themselve in an lnlikely alliance with the CIA's debuty Director of Plans, Richard Helms.

When Helms was asked by Harriman to approve the August 24 telelgram to Lodge since CIA Director John McCone (a Diem supporter) was out of town, the Deputy Director of Plans did so withot hesitation. It was the CIA's career tactician Helms, not Kennedy's appontee McCone, who was running the Agency's covert oporations-- in this case beyiond McCone's knowledge of control. McCOne was a figurehead out the CIA's covert action loop. Helms felt no need to seek out, or defer to McCone's judgment when it came to the CIA's endorsing (and facilitating) a coup in South Vietnam. "It's about time we bit this bullet," Helms told Harriman, (183) in direct conflict with what McCone would say to Kennedy on his retrn to Washington. But it was Helms who was literally calling the CIA's shots, not McCone. (JFK and the Unspeakable p.168)

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EPIC1934 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-09 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. TIME-LIFE AND CIA VS JFK
This relates to Time-Life Empire, and its founder Henry Luce who was one of the biggest Kennedy haters. His media empire was vastly important in Opposition to almost everything Kennedy did, and his wife, the playwrite Claire Boothe Loose was also far right wing and hung out with the Cubans who were critical of Kennedys Cuban policies -- read off the charts Right. Time -Life even funded the Bayo Pawley mission which was unauthorized by the JFK.

Of course Time Life's C.D. Jackson, luitenant to Luce who Bernstein at WaPo called Time-Life's liason to the CIA, (he had previously worked with Ike in charge of Psychological warfare while going back and forth btw. White HOuse and Time-Life in the 1950s) was in charge of acquiring the Zapruder film on behalf of Time-Life immediately after the assassination. The film was not made public until 1975. This sequestered period, gave rise to a split among WC critics between those who think the flim was altered and those who disagree. It is important to note that whatever ones opinion on this question THE POINT IN SO FAR AS PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE IS CONCERNED-- AND REMEMBER C.D. WAS IKS TOP PSY OPS MAN IN THE NORTH AFRICAN CAMPAIGN-- MAY HAVE BEEN THE SPIT ITSELF i.e. the division of the WC critics into warring camps By the way I leanred somethin new and interesting about Zapruder in the new book Family of Secrets which is MUCH MORE SOPHISITCATED THAN ITS COVER OR TITLE IMPLIES. IF YOU DONT BUY AT LEAST READ THE FIRST TWO HUNDRED PAGES IN BN. YOU WILL NOT BELIEVE THIS STUFF EVEN IF YOU HAVE READ TONS!

------

A couple of new Luce Ends from James W. Douglass' unbelievably good new book JFK and the Unspeakable:


Douglass Portrays Luce as in close relations with Lodge when the latter first arrives in Vietnam. Douglass then says Lodge and Luce were critical in working with State Dept and CIA to cut off half of JFK's orders about Diem: the part about one last warning to Diem about his brother and his own dynamic wife. Luce's involvement with Lodge here is new to me, and very interesting in conjunction with what he and Our Lady of the Italinate Paint Chips were doing with broad chested right wing Cubans in 1963, the very burly-men that JFK was trying to shut down.

Recall me slow but I also hadn't heard of this possibly pertinant gossip, about Mary Bancroft, lover of Dulles and very good friend of Ruth Forbes Paine Young, Michael Paine's mum:

Mary Bancroft's Oral History acknowledges her siultaneious postwar alliances with Allen Dulles and Time-Life-Fortune magnate Henry-
Luce: ' Mary enjoyed seeing Dulles mad over Luce. One night Mary creeped back to Dulles apartment when Allen called to Mary:
'Have you been with Luce all this time'? Mary fired back: 'Yes!" (Douglass, p, 422, drawn from Oral History, p. 310. Cited by
Adamson, Oswald's Closest Friend, p. 29.

I did not know that Bancroft was mixing intelligence with both Luce and Dulles. Those Luces semed to be of some EXTREMELY reformed
denomination(s)!
_________________
Operation Mockingbird Spartacus:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmockingbird.htm
Operation Mockingbird Education Forum
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5...
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EPIC1934 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Douglass Video.
In The interview below Douglass talks about JFK and how he changed from being a Cold Warrior and also about his current research into the US government murder of MLK and Malcolm X

The Feb 2009 issue of Sojourner magazine has an article called "Tackling the Unspeakable," about the incoming Obama administration and James W. Douglass's "JFK and the Unspeakable." It can be found online at:

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magaz...the-unspea...

There is an accompanying video interview with Jim, which can be found here:

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magaz...or-jim-dou...


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EPIC1934 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. JFK Part of Seven Days in May added to Robert Parrys article
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/022409a.html

Great article by the historian Lisa Pease. In her comments section, she plugs this great great great book as the source from which she learned of the Seven Days in May JFK stuff. Please read this article, as if makes a number of other interesting connections.
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EPIC1934 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Who Needs Soviet Airbrushes: With U. Va's Miller Center Its Always History's Miller Time.
There is more to learn about the Cuban Missile Crisis in six pages of JFK and the Unsepeakable, than in the entire book on that topic
by Official Court historian Timothy Naftali's book One Hell of A Gamble: The Secret History of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Check out this historiography offered up in footnote 82, Chapter1. (By the way the footnotes alone in this book are worth the cost of ten copies of this book; Chapter six alone has 906 footnotes, and these are not cheapies but are often fascinating pools of light in terms of historiographical overview) A contrast of Naftali and Douglass' books is essential for those who believe that official historians were only found in the USSR. No, the boys at UVas Miller Center could do the Commintern proud when it comes to groveling at the feet of intelligence agencies!

----
This foot note relates to ZeliKow-- he of the 9/11 Commission and colleague of Naftali at the University of Va Miller Center, May and Nftali's INTERESTING EDITING OF THE JFK TAPES! PERHAPS THIS IS WHAT QUALIFIED ZELIKOW FOR HIS LATER WORK ON THE 4 million dollar 9/11 Commission. Recall that Clinton's Wall Mart penis got 60 million worth of investigation from our dilligent bicamerals!


----

83. In 1997 Ernest R. May and Philip D. Zelikow edited and published transcripts of the Cuban Missile Crisis tapes in their book
The Kennedy Tapes (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1997) In 2000 the accuracy of their transcripts was challenged
in two articles by Sheldon M. Stern, historian at the JFK Library from 1977 to 1999: "What JFK Really Said," Atlintic Monthly 285
(May 2000): pp. 122-28, and "Source material: The 1997 Published Transcripts of the JFK Cuban missile Crisis Tapes: Too Good
to Be True?" Presidential Studies Quarterly 30 (September 2000): pp. 586-93. When Zelikow, May and Timothy Naftali brought out
a revised set of Missile Crisis Transcripts, The Presidential Recording: John F. Kennedy: Volumes 1-3, The Great Crisis (New York:
W.W. Norton, 2001), Stern critiqued their revision for further inaccuracies in his article " The JFK Tapes: Round Two," Reviews in
American History 30 (2002): pp. 680-88. Sheldon M. Stern has written a comprehensie narrative acount of the missile crisis deliberations
of PResiden Kennedy and the Executive Commitee of the National Security Council (ExComm), citing his own transcripts of the tapes,
Averting "The Final failure": John F. Kennedy and the Secret Cuban Missile Crisis Mettings (Stanford, Calif.: Stanford University Press, 2003).
My citations of the tapes are taken from Averting "The Final Failure."

A comparison of the Naftali book on the Missile Crisis with the account in JFK and the Unspeakable is educational. The DTs suffered by the
taperecorders at Miller Center had the effect of ALMOST COMPLETELY NEGATING the extremism of the JCS vis a vis Kennedy during the crisis.
The degree to which JFK faced a serous thread from the JCS is reduced to parnoia within the Politburo. Not so in JFK and the Unspeakable. Had been Zelikow's earlier boo boo been as well known as Rosemary's in 1973, we might even have had more faith in Kissinger as Lee Hamilton's cheap date.
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EPIC1934 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Boy Doe Chomsky Ignore Laos: No Wonder!!!
Edited on Thu Apr-02-09 10:12 PM by EPIC1934
This book sets incredible standards for scholarship. There are 936 footnotes.... in Chapter 6! These footnotes cite the most scholarly sources available, and make the arguments a solid challenge to the one sided reassassinations of Chomsky and Cockburn (see Encounter Magazine History of)


Douglass presents, brilliantly, an unfamiliar yet thoroughly convincing account of a series of creditable decisions of John F. Kennedyat odds with his initial Cold War stancethat earned him the secret distrust and hatred of hard-liners among the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the CIA. Did this suspicion and rage lead directly to his murder by agents of these institutions, as Douglass concludes? Many readers who are not yet convinced of this beyond reasonable doubt by Douglasss prosecutorial indictment will find themselves, perhapslike myselffor the first time, compelled to call for an authoritative criminal investigation. Recent events give all the more urgency to learning what such an inquiry can teach us about how, by whom, and in whose interests this country is run. --Daniel Ellsberg, author, Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers
________

Here is just one of litterally hundreds of examples of the the JCS and CIA acting in defiance of the president. Note that this is THE LIMITS OF DISSENT IN US. CHOMSKY IS MANTRAING THAT THE CIA ONLY ACTS AT THE DISCRETION OF THE PRESIDENT. WELL OFTEN THAT IS TRUE BUT.....

"As the Times of London reported,'CIA agents had deliberately opposed the official American objective of trying to estabilisha a neatral government, had encouraged Phoumi in his reinforcement of Nam Tha, and had negatived the heavy finacial pressure brought by the Kennedy administration upon Phoumi by subventions from its won budget"(note 114, Chapter 3) Emboldened by his knowledge of his CIA backing, Phoumi was brazen in his dfiance of Presidnet Kennedy's policy. The Times Correspondent stated: " The General apparently was quite outspoken , and mad it known that he could disregard the American embasy and the military advisory gorup becouse he as in communication with other American agencies"
JFK AND THE UNSPEAKABLE: WHY HE DIED AND WHY IT MATTERS.
p. 116
Was wondering why Chomsky never spoke much of Laos. That was where the JCS wanted a land war from day one of JFKs term. JFK resisted unanimous pressure from the permanent military and intelligence bureaucracy.
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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-04-09 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #16
35. No, I think Baker has the Kennedy thing badly wrong.
Edited on Wed Nov-04-09 01:35 AM by CTKA-Probe
Now no one can deny what a pack of #$$%^&*@ the Bush family are. Sadly Baker is way way way outta whack with the George Bush angle.

Bush was likely involved in some small way (no one denies that) but he was not as high up the chain nor as involved in the assassination as what people think. But I must say categorically there is no way he was at the dead centre of the plot. He was an utter underling.

This misconception which has been developed since 9-11 will be explored on CTKA in a review of John Hankeys appalling JFK 2 which has grossly misrepresented many facts in the case.

Stay tuned.
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jemma Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
25. This is by FAR the best book on the 1963 coup
You WILL understand what happened after reading it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
liam_laddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
26. Just finished "JFK and the Unspeakable"
What a work of researching and stitching together so many elements!
One passage has confused me; pg.316: Navy Corpsman Dennis David and Lt. Cmdr. William B. Pitzer are looking at photographs and film of the President's body. They discussed the entry wound in JFK's throat and also mention an entry wound in the right forehead. I've never seen this wound mentioned before.
Thirty-five months later, Oct 29, 1966, Pitzer is found shot to death in the TV production studio of the Naval Medical Center. The photos and film have never been found.
Could David and Pitzer have been mistaken? I think not! Another criminal action by the Unspeakable.
Could the whitewash have been so complete that this forehead wound "disappeared?" Very confusing.

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EPIC1934 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-07-09 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Interview Malcolm Perry
See this Dallas TV interview with Dr. Malcolm Perry 11-23-63 . Note how his original descirptions of the wounds contradict his later descriptions-- after he was "convinced to change his testimoney

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNZTWuWn9JE
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EPIC1934 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-03-09 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. One more of 8,313 examples of conflict with Perm. Military Intel Bureacracy
"(Senator) Mike Mansfield said of Kennedy's response to his critique: 'Presidend Kennedy didn't waste words. He was pretty sparse with his language. But it was not ususual for him to shift position. There is no doubt that he had shifted definitely and unequivocally on Vietnam but he never had the chance to put the plan into effect (footnote 159, chapter 3)

Kennedy was now on the alert to remove any obstacles from the way to a future withdrawal from Vietnam. On January 25, 1963, he phoned Roger Hilsman, the head of State Department Intelligence, at his home to complain about front-page box in the New York Times on a U.S. General visiting Vietnam. In what Hilsman rememberd as "decidedly purple language," (160) Kennedy took him to task. He ordered Hilsman to stop military visits that seemed to increase the US commitment to Vietnam.

Kennedy said, "That is exactly what I dont want to do. Remember Laos," he emphasized. "The United States must keep a low profile in Vietnam so we can negotiate its neutralization like we did in Laos" (161)



After listening to the angry president, Hilsman pointed out that he had not authority as a State Department officer to deny a Pentagon general permission to visit Vietnam.

"Oh," said Kennedy and slammed down the phone. That afternoon the president issued National Security Action Memorandum Number 217, forbidding "high ranking military and civilian personnel" from going to South Vietnam without being cleared by the State Department office where Hilsman worked(162). This action by JFK, reigning in the miliatary's travel to Vietnam, for the sakeof a neutralization pollcy, did not please the Penatgon. JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters, pp. 124-5.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
29. Featured on HBO's Real Time w/Bill Maher via Oliver Stone
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TatonkaJames Donating Member (502 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-09-09 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
30. Reading it now
Makes sense to me totally.
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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-03-09 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
31. Brilliant book
Brilliant book.

For more high end JFK research and history visit Probe and the Real History Archives.

http://www.ctka.net/index.html

and the Real History Archives.

http://www.realhistoryarchives.com /
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
44. I have to thank DUers for this recommendation.
I found this thread earlier this year and began a search for the book, but it was never released in this country. Not even in my local library, which is quite big and has a wide selection. It's strange how any number of books about JFK's sex life are imported here, but not an important book like this.

Mr Matilda searched and found a new hardcover copy in a U.S. bookstore and bought it for me through Abebooks for my birthday last month. I've been reading it for the past couple of weeks - it's not a book you can skim through, you have to pay attention.

There are some things that I've read in other books or articles, such as the two Oswalds, and the changed post-mortem photographs, and also of the correspondence between JFK and Khruschev, which was detailed in "An Unfinished Life", one of the best Kennedy biogs I've read. But there were a number of things that I'd never seen documented before, such as the damage inflicted on Kennedy's policies in Vietnam by Henry Cabot Lodge (makes perfect sense), or the attitude of his own Secret Service guards. Never mind the audacity of the CIA - we have long known of their despicable role in destablising any government, anywhere, that posed a perceived threat to U.S. interests, but their role as a kind of "second government", carrying out their own policies without regard to the wishes of the president of the day, or of the American people, is truly shocking.

It's very interesting that books telling wild tales about improbable scenarios of the assassination, and that of Bobby, are freely available, yet this very carefully researched book, with meticulous references, is largely unheralded. It looks a bit as if even the publishers weren't too sure about it, as it has a slightly cheap look; the quality of the paper and print isn't very good, and there is a notable absence of photographs. That is a shame; I'd have liked to have looked at photographs of people like the Paines, who have only received scant coverage elsewhere; the duplicitous Henry Cabot Lodge; and the loathsome Chiefs of Staff (particularly Curtis le May).

I've had doubts about the events of the time since the day Jack Ruby was allowed to shoot Oswald; that was obviously part of a cover-up that the Dallas police should never have allowed to happen, and while I don't believe everything I read, I can't see how anybody with an open mind can still have doubts about a conspiracy. This book pulls all the threads together very neatly, and in a more convincing way than anything else I've read.

As the anniversary approaches, I feel the pain again as much as I did back then, a young teenager thrilled with the idealism, the inspiration, and the hope of a young president; shocked to the core by what happened. If anything, I am even more shocked and saddened now.

I believe.
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prc73450 Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
45. a fascinating book about a fascinating individual.
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clixtox Donating Member (941 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
46. Read this book! N/T
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Rabblevox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
47. This is probably the most important book on American politics I've ever read. READ IT! /nt
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
48. Just ordered it...will let you know once I've read it..
...I became a bit of a JFK buff after Oliver Stone's movie and read alot of different books about it. The only definitive conclusion I can draw is that the offical story is total bollocks...Looking forward to re-engaging the topic...
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. pick up RECLAIMING HISTORY while you're at it
If you haven't read it or the entire warren commission report, then you don't really know enough to call the official story "bollocks".
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Yeah, sorry but Vinnie B is wrong on this one...
....dead wrong...
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-11 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Curious.
Have you read it?
Why do you say he's dead wrong on this one?
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clixtox Donating Member (941 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. Truebrit is referring to Vincent Bugliosi's book... N/T
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. yes, I know n/t
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zacherystaylor Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. I read it and it is "bollocks"
Not only doesn't the Warren Commission report make sense but the government came up with two there contradictory versions. The House Select Committee report comes to different conclusions and the most credible version, or at least partial version, is the Clay Shaw trial which provided a lot of evidence that is hard to dispute. It has been demonized but not debunked in a rational manner; although there are problems. the biggest problems seem to be a result of the stone walling by the federal government.

I went into more detail in my o=wn review if you're interested.

http://open.salon.com/blog/zacherydtaylor/2011/06/13/jf...
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. "the Clay Shaw trial which provided a lot of evidence that is hard to dispute"
such as...?
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zacherystaylor Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-11 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. One example is the fact that
One example is the fact that a motorcycle cop found something that was clearly blood on his motorcycle who was behind JFK. If the shooter was to the rear the majority of the blood should have gone forward. there might be some legitimate concerns about this but they weren't raised in the trial; instead they questioned his ability to recognize blood which was pretty obvious to any reasonable person. the restrictions they put on his testimony were highly suspicious. It seemed, at times, like they were making it as hard as possible to prove the case; which implies a possible coverup. there were some exceptions; barely enough rulings in the favor of Garrison to give them something to claim fairness.

There is plenty more in the transcripts for you or anyone else who wants to take the time to read them; assuming it is a sincere effort I find it hard to believe that people can't find many problems with this case.
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. really?
from the interview with Garrison's people...

"Given Hargis' position to Kennedy's left and behind him, he should have been able to see the back of Kennedy's head blow out, if that indeed had happened. Yet he explicitly says that he saw a "splash come out on the other side." He, in other words, is describing a wound to the right side of Kennedy's head. So it's deeply ironic that conspiracy authors have used him as a "back of the head" witness. "

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hargis.htm

that was too easy.
got anything else?
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Jack Sprat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-11 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. You read either of these books?
I see this post started some 3 years ago and I can't say I've heard of either the book by Bugliosi or the one featured at the beginning of the post. Have you read either or place any credence in either one? I wonder if they are worth reading or just more rehash of a conspiracy that never dies.
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-11 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Bugliosi's is worth reading
Edited on Tue Jul-19-11 01:30 PM by zappaman
the other is just a rehash of CT bullshit.
this time focusing on the CIA.
after reading Bugliosi's book, I realized how all these CT authors have been duping me and everyone else.
there is a mountain of evidence pointing to the killer and it's fascinating to learn things that are in the WCR that "researchers" conveniently leave out.

ETA:spelling
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Jack Sprat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-11 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Thanks, zappaman. I was suspicious
that this didn't lead anywhere since it died off without fanfare in 2008.
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