I just donated money to the Green Party and will vote Green from now on.

[MoonRiver]

Sorry, but Kerry stood me up, and this time I am definitely NOT getting over it. 2004 was the Democratic Party's absolute LAST chance to prove they have the balls to stand up against these vicious, fascist Repuke thugs. Sadly, tragically, they FAILED, miserably. I must now look for others to protect my and millions of others' interests.

[jamboi]

1. Right on! I've been voting Green for 8 years now! Take a look at our 10

key values. http://gp.org We really try to put them into action.

[lateo]

2. Kerry is still fighting for you!

:)

just kidding

[Yuugal]

20. ha!

That was funny. My own suspicion is that Kerry is covering his ass(joining the suit in Ohio) with all of us who are mad at him for folding his cards so early in the hand. Granted, he's still not really fighting for us, but he did mention to the lunch lady that those big bad republicans are beating us up and taking our lunch money again. Since we all know the lunch ladies are reps, we are still screwed, but we DO have more momentum now than we did a few weeks ago and that is at least something.

For my part, I'll be happy if we can at least get a fair vote next time. Kerry winning this time would be a bonus but at this point the big issue for me is fairness not Kerry.

[lateo]

41. I agree.

I left off the sarcasm tags just for maximum effect.

Kerry abandoned us.

[LittleClarkie]

3. What, you want egg in your beer or somethin'

This ain't good enough for ya?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=94805&mesg_id=94805

Why I oughta...

[sweetladybug]

8. I think Kerry is working behind the scene and he's getting his ducks in a

row. If he was out bitching about voting fraud since the election the media and republicans would say he's a sore loser (they would smear him to the ground). He has to get his proof and I think he's getting that proof. Kerry isn't a quitter and I honestly think that shit is getting ready to hit fan. We have to have faith in the man we voted for, for President!

[johan helge]

4. Bush wants you to join the Greens. Need I say more?

The Greens are the very reason Bush became president, remember? Stop this idiocy!

[MoonRiver]

5. It appears the Demorcats want me to do so also.

Need I say more?

[johan helge]

7. Well, they don't pal. But Bush does.

[malatesta1137]

50. Kerry is making Bush's job

very easy at this point.

[ClassWarrior]

51. So are you.

NGU.

[malatesta1137]

52. who would say?

Kerry and I working together!

[dweller]

11. no, that honor goes to

Diebold and the voting machines.

stop that idiocy.

dp

[johan helge]

13. With enough Greens, Bush wouldn't even need Diebold

[dweller]

16. You most likely don't know what is happening johan

but Kerry/Edwards has joined in the Green/Lib suit to recount in Ohio.

stick around and read the news.
dp

[johan helge]

22. I knew that, didn't think you did?

[Mojambo]

23. With enough Greens we won't need the Democratic party

A two party system only works if you have representation on both sides of the political spectrum.

I submit that the Green party is fully capable of supplanting the Democratic party as the second party if enough progressives stand true to their ideals.

[johan helge]

24. Dream on, baby

[Mojambo]

25. I won't be dreaming

I'll be working, but thanks!

[ever_green]

66. Bingo!

right on.

[MileHiStealth]

30. With enough Greens, neither the Repugs or Dems ....

would stand a chance ....

[johan helge]

33. Right, I hadn't thought of that!

[ever_green]

65. oh please.

You blame Nader for Gore's loss?! Riiiight. Gore sucked. That's that. When are we ever going to admit that our candidates are pitiful and not progressive! This is why we keep losing. We never blame ourselves it's always someone else.

[mitchtv]

6. start trashing our candidates and "Ciao baby"Tombstone time

let me know when Dean joins up(or when they win a federal election

[sweetladybug]

10. Do we have some freeper on board? Here causing trouble and try

to split Democrats. Go back to freerepublic. And by the way, how do you like a thief and con man for YOUR pResident?

[MoonRiver]

14. I've been a devoted Democrat here for the last 3 years.

WHY isn't Kerry fighting?????????????????
There is no answer except that he's a push-over and born again loser. I will not vote for those who demean and demoralize the democratic process in my country ever again. Sadly, tragically, it appears that would be Kerry, and possibly the entire Democratic Party. Sorry, but those are the FACTS, as I see them at this time and place.

[LittleClarkie]

15. Will you crawl out of this thread for two seconds and look on the board

He's fighting, dagnabit. He just joined the Greens and Libs in court. Geez Louise. Go have a look!

[propagandafreegal]

19. Jesse Jackson spoke w/ Kerry and I didn't like what I heard recounted by

Jackson. Kerry says he is not providing resources or taking a stance on the situation. This was in today's Amy Goodman interview w/ Jesse.

[mary195149]

12. The difference I have seen between the dems and the repubs are

so many democrat people get upset when things aren't going well and the repub people stand by Bush and fight it out, right or wrong, they just do what they have to do. Why do so many people assume Kerry has let us down, just because he has not made himself visible to us as we would like? He can't surface until he has enough evidence. He would look pretty stupid if he started accusing but didn't have the facts.
Maybe it is the democrats that need to fight this out for Kerry. Maybe we need to show the Bushies we demand a real election!!
We should set aside a particular day and protest all over the country, we need to be heard loud and clear!!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. What a whiny bullshit post

[jamboi]

17. Its not whiny to ask "where's Kerry?"! n/t

[LittleClarkie]

26. It's not whiny. But yer blind.

Or you have me on ignore or something. Can't figure it out.

Aw hell.

Red Alert! Red Alert! Now hear this! Kerry sighting! Kerry sighting!

All hands will now report to the "K/E joins Greens and Libs in court for recount fight" thread.

(or something like that -- no film in the photographic mind)

This is not a drill. I repeat, this is not a drill.

:party: :toast: :bounce: :headbang:

[dweller]

21. some cheese with that, NSMA?

Gruyere, Brie?


:o


dp

[Mojambo]

18. As a progressive I have to support the party

that is most progressive.

The Democratic party is now a centrist party. They simply don't represent me anymore.

I don't have any hard feelings. I wish them great luck, but I'm going to support a party that represents MY views most completely.

Call me a freeper disrupter if you wish, but isn't that how it is supposed to work?

[Democrat Dragon]

27. But then,

During the next election the Democrats would loose votes from previous supporters! It would be like what happened to the Republicans with Ross Perot in the 1996 election.

[Mojambo]

28. It sucks, I know

But you have to break a few eggs...

I don't hate the Democratic party, but I just feel that I have to start being true to myself.

The odds are that the Democratic leadership will again force a candidate like Kerry down my throat and next time I'm not sure I'll be able to swallow it so easily.

[genieroze]

43. I voted for Perot in 96, That's another pub lie

that the pubs came out for him.
He's pro choice and pro gay rights,pro gun control, and was against NAFTA, Does this sound like a pub to you? No he took votes away from Clinton. If anything he was a pub plant.
http://www.issues2000.org/Ross_Perot.htm

[Yuugal]

29. what is your definition of progressive?

If your definition of a great party is strictly based on them being as progressive as possible and nothing else, then by all means vote green or whoever you like. My definition of progressive involves a bit of realism though. The dem party has a chance to put the progress back in progressivism so to speak. Especially now that so many in the party are starting to see that moving toward the center is always a recipe for electoral disaster.

I'm going to stick it out with this party because I see it as the best chance we have for real change. I could sit in my ivory tower and hold whatever righteous views I wanted to, but if its just me and a few other like minded souls voting our way vs 100+ million people voting for the 2 major players, then the possibility that my views will change the world is very small.

Look at how much better the krazy kristians are doing now that they've joined the mainstream reps. Sure, they could have kept running the Patsy twins(Buchanan and Robertson) and screwing up the right wing's chances every time by siphoning off votes from their side of the political spectrum thus ensuring alot of dem presidents, but instead they got smart and "joined" the party and then completely took it over. Sounds like a plan progressives might want to study IMHO. Especially now that Dems are in the mood to discuss why they are so good at losing.

[Mojambo]

32. Some good points

The Dem party certainly has the chance to put the progress back into progressivism, but every indication is that they are looking to move in the opposite direction. If that is the case then I would rather join the Greens and hope to moderate them into a more realistic party (election wise.)

There are two ways to go. You can try and pull the Democratic party back from their rightward course or you can join the Greens and put your energy into making them successful.

I think the only lesson Democrats seem to be learning from their losses is that they need to be more repub-lite, and that irks me.

The other thing that really bugs me about the Democratic party is their unwillingness to fight BBV. They are getting bent over and fucked hard by this issue and they show no inclination to try and fix it. That, to me, is totally unacceptable.

[Democrat Dragon]

35. They are trying to fix it, Kerry just joined the recount effort.

[Mojambo]

36. They are addressing the symptoms

I was speaking more to the overall problem of unverified voting.

But yes, it is encouraging if true.

[malatesta1137]

53. The Democratic Party is not centrist

like Gore Vidal says:

"America has one party with two wings: the conservative wing, aka the Democrats, and the reactionary wing, aka as Republicans."

[Hobbes199]

31. Voting Nader next time...

Hopefully he'll be back with the Greens, and I can thank two birds with one stone.

[politicasista]

34. I love Green.

[ginnyinWI]

37. Please reconsider...

before you just vote Green, check out the Progressive Democrats for America. They incorporate Greens and other progressives and are determined to change the Democratic Party from the inside out:

http://pdamerica.org/

[latteromden]

38. RIDICULOUS, that you should be criticized for saying this

You have absolutely every right to join another party. The Green Party is wonderful. I am actually a former Green, so I can tell you that they really are a great party.

BUT.

We still need your help, and the help of the rest of the Greens. I think that by joining forces, we could REALLY help establish a base for third parties, and I think that Greens could help stop the Democrats from moving further to the right. The relationship between the Green Party and the Democratic Party should not be a hostile one, please try not to make it so. The Greens can teach the Democrats a HELL of a lot - one reason I became a Democrat (among many) is to get the rest of my party to just fucking LISTEN to the GP, and I figured that if one of their own was telling them to listen, they may be more willing.

But progressives are all on the same side of the spectrum, remember. It's not a competition between the two major left-leaning parties. Vote for who you like; I never believed that a candidate could be a "spoiler." You can't "steal" votes, you have to EARN them. But true progressives have a lot to teach the Democrats, and Greens just might be the force to keep the Dems over on the "right" (er, left!) side.

[Mojambo]

39. Great Post. n/t

[MoonRiver]

44. I bookmarked the site. It looks like a great group! Thanks!

I don't know how effective the group will be against the DNC/DLC leadership, though. Groups like yours and the people here at DU are what keeps the Dems viable, imho, but we're hardly listened to. I have not decided to always, under any circumstances, vote Green. A lot depends on what happens to the Dem Party. For one thing they have to start loudly and persistently voicing outrage, NOT just concern, about bbvs. I want them to come out and categorically STATE that the last 2 presidential elections were STOLEN, and provide the proof. All they have to do is read threads here at DU :eyes:. But we all know they WILL DO NO SUCH THING. If I'm proved wrong, I'll eat my mouse ;). Anyway, if the Dem Party does not start doing something about the massive Repuke fraud, it will be an exercise in futility to vote at all. At least by voting for the candidate I feel most represents my views I'll have a feeling of ethical honesty. I don't have that right now. Even though Kerry is making noises about joining the fight in Ohio, I worry about his willingness to really cry foul against bush and the election results. I hope to God that my doubts are unjustified, but the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior,

I guess in a nutshell, I'm just so damn tired of false hopes and bitter disappointment.

[mitchtv]

54. I have nothing against him leaving

We just don't want him here criticzing Dems_(us). IOW 'don't let the door hit you in the ass Bye for now'. Go with your Greens, call me when you win something

[latteromden]

55. Expect that call soon

25 Green mayors at the moment (including Jason West - you know, New Paltz gay marriages?). 65 Greens won in this election. They're doing what WE should be doing - concentrating on local races.

[jamboi]

40. bump

[sportndandy]

42. To some that is treason

Some here take the word "democratic" in the URL seriously. I have been criticised for being too liberal here, so watch it. I think this site should be called liberalunderground.com but it isn't.

[Gman]

45. Good. Now go post on Green Underground.com

Don't let the door hit you in the ass either.

[ever_green]

67. See this is the problem with many dems....you only want to hear certain

views, and that is why we will continue to lose! Can't you see that? Kerry didn't want to stop the war!! We needed an antiwar candidate. Are you for the war or what? Stop stifling dissent (especially when it's not really dissent since the greens are more progressive than the Dems), you make yourself no better than the Repukes!

[Snivi Yllom]

46. I say let the DNC and DLC squirm a while

They have only their own interests at heart, not the people they supposedly represent.

Let them go ahead and run more of the same in 2008. I will stay home or vote green unless they change course.

[ClassWarrior]

47. I say infiltrate the DNC and crush the DLC...

The party's ripe for the taking. And we don't need to reinvent the wheel building an infrastructure. Progressives - take over the Democratic Party!!

NGU.

[latteromden]

59. Exactly! (n/t)

[phlesh]

48. I wish we would get rid of parties....

Hey don't get me wrong... I tend to vote democrat for president... I vote a mixed ticket overall... there are several local republicans in my area that have my upmost respect and are good, honest men... I am registered as a independent voter.

The Democratic party definately has my favor among the big 2, but there are times I wish we would get rid of parties and look at the man who is running. Thats the only way for guys like Nader or Cobb to ever get elected.

Washington warned us against parties and he was right, its such a divider. I think we should get rid of the party system altogether.

As for the poster who started this thread... good for you, more people need to stop and look at the other alternatives. If the third parties could get more support in this country, maybe we would have more honest men running for the big office.

[ClassWarrior]

49. Then get to work on promoting IRV or a multi-party system or both...

BE the change you want. It won't be at all easy, but they're both worthy goals.

NGU.

[wlubin]

56. What if the 2008 mantra is Anyone But Schwarzinutter?

[googly]

57. Kerry is way too smart to send good money after bad!

He does not want to waste a few million dollars leftover
from campaign contributions on chasing a no-win situation.
WTF Ohio has repuke election chief, repuke legislature,
repuke judges and repuke governor. Ditto for Florida except
for the supremes there. But then you have 5/4 repuke SCOTUS.

Kerry is shrewd enough to conserve that money for where it will
do the most good....next election.

[Lexingtonian]

58. Good luck!

'Standing up' is not a demonstration of power, only of resistance to the power that is visible. Being part of an alliance whose opinion matters, that changes things for the better without a sense of and need for palpable rewards, that actually matters. Power is the exertion of opinion that is able to change the decisions made.

Everyone understands your point of view emotionally. Your behavior is, however, one of going AWOL because the course of the war isn't going favorably enough in your eyes. It's easy to be brave and passionate about what is desirable when you've begged out of fighting in the trenches and open fields or respecting those leaders and warriors who take their best to the battleground and bear the price. This is what a truly hard fight is- always on the psychological limits of the tolerable, always disappointment, always bloody and muddy and brutish and full of failures. It is attrition, and the few successes make all the difference until one side is utterly out of resources.

Not everyone has the courage or the ability to suffer, that's true, and many green soldiers have imagined they know more about the war than the generals waging it. But humility is one thing forced upon all the people who actually bring about the victory. Per asperum ad astra. Through the shit to the stars. There is no other way to the stars, it turns out, on your own power.

Feel free to come back when you're an actual adult. When you have the sense of self that allows you to suffer such insults from reality without real harm, when you have a positive identity, when you are willing to understand on terms not your own what Kerry, despite not empowering you, did for the Party and the country to take us forward. When you have nerve, when you can dispense with ego.

Be safe on your journey, though. It could be a long trip.

[MoonRiver]

61. For your information, I have been in the trenches for 4+ long horrible yrs

The problem is my commanders have gone AWOL. Our Democratic leaders seem determined to marginalize themselves no matter how hard we foot soldiers work to defeat the enemy. I'm a passionate, hard working activist. But I am no sucker. I won't sweat bullets trying to save this democracy while leaders I've sworn allegiance to appear to have passively accepted the rightwing coup. I want my leaders to be working AT LEAST as hard as I.
:argh:

[Lexingtonian]

63. Fine.

I'm not in a hurry to defend much of the upper tiers of the Party- the Liebermans and such have become painfully insecure and unrealistically defeatist. But I deny your charges' validity toward the three real leaders of the enterprise- Bill Clinton, John Kerry, and Nancy Pelosi.

The reality is that Bush's team dug up all the conservative leaners that could be found and got them agitated everywhere. Even in my state (Massachusetts) the polling throughout the year had Kerry in the high sixties, but the 62% he got was 3-4% below the pragmatic projections and 5-6% below expectations. Turnout was up almost 10%, at 72% of registered voters. They simply Were Out There, all these people who generally haven't voted during the last 15 years but could readily believe that times are too agitated and insolid, and voting for Bush- whatever his actual merits and interests- would give them four more years of predictable, greatly slowed, change. Even if it is pretty brutal a time in their individual lives- they blame the Modern world, not Bush.

I'll gladly believe there was some amount of incompetence, malfeasance, and corruption in the Florida and Ohio elections. Maybe even predicate fraud. (I count the ex-felon disenfranchisement in Florida as structural voter fraud.) Maybe enough in aggregate that one or the other candidate only won the state(s) by 1,000 votes. That still leaves a Bush majority by a margin of 3 million votes and no mandate for Kerry to work with against a Republican Congress. Bush conversely got about as useless a victory as anyone has ever gotten- no swing voter believes in the Republican agenda and the Democratic agenda has nearly 60% support. The result of the election says that voters as a whole realize which one will do them more good, but they believe the time for it is Not Just Yet. It is all simply not a "right wing coup". This is a right wing government discovering itself reelected- but hogtied by the condition that it will be severely punished if it does anything it really wants to. It is elected to Change Nothing, except perhaps to actually fix stuff that constitutes an emergency on occasion, which is driving them crazy as they come to realize it.

As for whether Kerry and Clinton and Pelosi and such are really working as hard as they can, there is only one fair test. Look at things a year from now and see whether you really believe what you assert now.

[KoKo]

60. I might....I'm commited right now to Dem Party Reform with "Progressive

Wing" of the Dems...but I might go over to the "Greens." I sent money for the recount...I probably belong there...but I'm waiting a bit to see how everything falls out with the "vote count."

I hear you....I understand..

[mitchtv]

62. I hope that you and the other disenchanted Dems (see above)

contact DLC and any Dem you know and voice the threat i made recently
"DEAN OR GREEN". He is the hope of the Democratic Party.

[Maraya1969]

64. Why don't you just flush your vote down the toilet then

Getting a Democrat back in the President's office is the first thing we need to do. Throwing your vote away to make a statement is not going to help anything.

Voting for a third party is like saying, "I want to hike Mount Everest but I'm going to start half way up" Impossible.

It just doesn't work that way.

[ever_green]

68. Maybe if we had an antiwar Democrat!

We should have had Dean.