I am hesitant to post this but I think Duer's should think about this

[saracat]

I heard an operative from a former admin speak recently and it was stated the "the Republican's "knew" what the vote was "going to be" precinct by precinct and we didn't . That is why we lost. I was chilled by that statement. I don't think he intended to admit that. Because if we knew they knew, then we know how they knew it. If that is the case, our own party knows how the election went down. I was also recently told by a diplomat who worked to prevent this war and is a Clintonista, that things are not what they appear with Clinton. This was in response to my displeasure with recent Clinton statements. I hate being obtuse but I don't want anyone to get into trouble. Also look for vote number inflation and the party operatives to place blame on Kerry. He wasn't one of them. The implication was a deal was struck. Any opinions?

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. The freepers

have been saying for months that Clinton would keep Kerry from being elected.

[New Earth]

honestly

i don't understand any of what you are saying what does all this mean?

[saracat]

7. How would they "know" before an election what the vote would be?

and If we knew that they had advance knowledge, we would also know how they had obtained that advance knowledge. Basically we would know how they preset the vote . And we( the party) are not doing anything about it. Kerry was not involved. He did not know. Get it?. As for Clinton, he is saying things he doesn't want to but must. I am trying not to sound like a tinfoil hat wearer. This is just what I was told.

[lynintenn]

95. I heard them expalin

that ground workers knew down to each house in each precinct who was voting and if they hadn't voted they went to homes and took them to the polls.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

125. I KNEW it. I think MANY are saying things because they must.

I am glad you told us this much, and I sure hope we all find out more in the not too distant future.

[bluecity]

306. Rove could be sure if...

I always thought when I heard the news on Nov. 2-3 that Rove assured Bush he knew the exit poll #'s were wrong that Rove "knew" because he was confident the tallying was fixed. That would be much more of a certainty than any counts he could be getting from precinct workers on the ground.

[saracat]

2. That wasn't what i was implying.

[intheflow]

4. What were you implying?

Help! I'm lost in this thread!

[intheflow]

3. Can you explain this comment?

i can't stand to go to the Freeper sites. What have they been saying, exactly?

[intelle]

5. I also noticed that when Bush started talking about thinking he will win

Jenna again laughs.

[saracat]

10. I don't go to freeper sites! I was implying that it was said Clinton

is not saying what he wants to say but what he has been told he must say.

[intheflow]

28. My post wasn't for you, saracat.

It was for Proud2BLib, the first poster who was making a connection between Clinton and Freeper gossip.

But your post here cleared up what I asked you in post #4.

Thanks!

[proud2BlibKansan]

262. intheflow, sorry I am just now replying

to your question. I am on several freeper dominated discussion boards and they have been saying for at least 6 months that the Clintons would actively work to prevent a Kerry election, to make room for HIllary in 2008. Their thinking is that the 2008 election will be an easier one for a Democrat than 2004. They of course felt * was a lock this time and Hillary wasn't ready to run and will be a better candidate in 2008.

Of course, I think this is crazy, but this is what the freepers are saying. Hope it answered your question.

[intheflow]

292. Thanks, proud2Blib.

It's a nutty idea, for sure. If a white man from Massachusetts is too liberal for 50% of Americans, there's no way this country will be ready in 4 years for a woman in the oval office.

Peace!

[Starlight]

6. Speaking in tongues??

[intelle]

8. So sorry

I was reading another thread, and then thought I had pulled it back up again to make a comment...

[Straight Shooter]

14. The Matrix burped

And Jenna's green shoe kicked intelle

[99Pancakes]

19. Read this about the Shrub twins in NYC

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=351

It's a hoot. Only one paragraph. Can't follow this thread too well either but since someone brought up Jenna's evil laugh.........

[shelley806]

36. LOL!! It fir right in with the rest of the thread; can't make sence of it

Now, Jenna laughing...that's sinister. She knew he'd cheat.

[brindis_desala]

9. I get your drift

This fits with my deductions about the silence. I understand that you can't be explicit but do you think there's a way out for us (dems)?

[New Earth]

11. can someone please explain the drift? or at least PM it?

[saracat]

13. Kerry.

[ahyums]

39. well let's keep giving him every support possible then - it explains the

cryptic video to a certain extent too. If something like that did happen it simply cannot be allowed to continue, even and indeed especially if (as I understand the implication) the Democrats are guaranteed victory with Hillary in '08. I find it exceptionally hard to believe that the Clintons would get involved with such things that being said.


Edit just read further down the thread it appears that is not the case.

[saracat]

46. I don't think the Clinton's are involved in the way some say.

[stirringstill]

209. People don't change.

Kerry was always on the outside and remains so. As a freshmean senator he fought against BCCI. As an even younger man he fought against Vietnam. He would never lie down with these same forces.

[BlueDog2u]

64. This fits with my deductions about the silence.

Others have said that here and you know, its true. The Repubs are quiet. They aren't crowing at all. They know in their hearts something stinks.

[dewaldd]

12. I have suspected that the dems knew it was rigged once Kerry folded

Go read the book "Votescam", the first few chapters are at http://www.votescam.com I think both parties screw with the vote.

[New Earth]

16. saracat, do you mean kerry is the way out?

[saracat]

21. Yes.

Look at how Certain Sen. voted on the spending bill. Kerry voted Nay.

[New Earth]

24. i'm so confused tho

the way out of WHAT? and what does this senate bill have anything to do with anything?

[saracat]

30. I PMed you.

[intelle]

33. I PM'ed you, saracat.

[Solitaire]

87. saracat?

can you please PM me too?

I'm so lost!

Thanks

[saracat]

169. Delete

[New Earth]

170. this is all the more reason

to send Kerry the 'I BELIEVE" thread.

[New Earth]

174. thank you tho

i saw it

[blackspade]

308. I'm confused as well.

I would appreciate a PM as well.
I would PM you directly but my post count is too low.

Thanks!

[burn the bush]

29. i too have been thinking that whatever is up, the dems are in on it too.

the libs and the greens are the only parties that have stepped up to the plate on this. Now i don't care how meek the dems may be, but somebody has got to see what is going on, and yet they too remain quiet. There is too much shit goin on for them to just sit there.
I suspect that if it ever comes all the way out, that dems are in on at least part of the deal. Maybe not all dems and maybe not all pugs,just some who controls them all.

hey its that bush ring

one ring to rule them all
and in the darkness blind them, how did that go lotr fans? Oh no Bush is Salamon? (can't remember names.) Who is gollum then? Perhaps it's Clinton, slick Willy playing both sides?

most importantly who will be our Frodo?

[saracat]

34. Kerry appears to be stepping up to the plate.

Take another look at his recent video. And he didn't give it to MSM. He gave it to us. We must watch and see. Esp. watch Ohio.

[intelle]

44. Yes, I agree that Kerry does seem to be stepping up

and, I think he is perfectly able to defend himself and get at the truth.

[shelley806]

48. I got the e-mail from Kerry and it cheered me up immensely, but I

only heard the video, and it was the same as the e-mail; verbatim. Someone posted that he was winking! and that suggested something. Anyone know what I'm talking about? I agree that it's interesting that he referred to the help on the internet(s!) (Sinclair and other battles) and didn't go to MSM, and I think it's significant.

[saracat]

67. I don't know a bout the winking. Someone else posted about that and

I honestly didn't see a wink. That wouldn't seem like Kerry anyway.

[ahyums]

74. there was a wink of sorts but I don't think it was intentional it looked

exactly like previous blinks.

[KMG]

350. kerry

kerry is just making sure he gets the democratic vote in 08. He heard people were angry and were starting to demand their money back and had to come up with something. So he did. Hence: the email

[Yuugal]

63. we don't need a Frodo.....

We need a Joe Kennedy. Next time, instead of taking 200 million bux and giving it to the same media that bitch slaps us every day in their reports ....to run ads that are mostly ignored anyway and do nothing to change anyone's vote, lets just divide the 200 mill among the voting machine makers and hope for the best?
Playing fair in a rigged election system is silly and fruitless.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

131. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,

One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

[ever_green]

182. I 'm equally as suspicious. Who can we trust these days?

I just don't know.

[troubleinwinter]

15. ??? Somebody said something, and somebody else said something"

You want opinions on what?

[intelle]

17. I may be dense

But I am totally confused about all this.

[checks-n-balances]

20. I'm confused too... saracat said "Duer's should think about this"

How can we think about something this sketchy? I can't tell if you're leaking/reporting/implying good news or bad news, and I don't think it's just me...

[jsamuel]

18. Clinton knew and is getting payed to have his wife elected in 2008, Kerry

didn't know and got screwed. - I think that is what saracat is implying and I think that is rediculous.

Clinton may not be saying what he feels is true, but that is not why.

I don't agree with that at all.

[New Earth]

22. i don't think so

i don't think that's what she's saying. wtf, grrr

[saracat]

27. Nonsense. That is not what I am saying. Apparently some have Condi's lack

of imagination or the ability to read between the lines. Forget about Clinton. You wouldn't get it anyway. Think vote prediction. And Kerry was screwed.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

134. THey might just be playing dumb in hopes of prying more out of you -nt

[Ediacara]

206. Lack of imagination?

Jesus Christ. All I see in this thread is imagination because of your extremely sketchy post.

Look, if you can't post something even marginally specific, then don't post it.

[demodonkey]

32. Every one of my Freeper relatives said exactly this months ago... ho hum

<<Clinton knew and is getting payed to have his wife elected in 2008, Kerry didn't know and got screwed>>

Clinton, Clinton, Clinton, CAN'T they EVER think up somebody new to blame???
UGH!
Dems being chicken and caving to save their own butts from "threats" doesn't fly either, although I hear this crap all the time from Freeper-types, too.

I don't drink this Kool-Aid, though that is exactly what "they" want us to do....

[saracat]

38. I don't know about the other poster, but that is NOT

what I am saying in the original post. Just so you know!

[demodonkey]

45. I know saracat, but that quote IS the crap the Freepers always say...

am not meaning to attack your post...

[jdj]

354. Hillary will never win. Talk about bringing them out in droves

even she knows that.

That isn't what this is about.

I don't know why they are playing possum, Kerry and Clinton, but they are. They have access to the same numbers that we do. My best hope is they cut some deals with some axed CIA people and skeletons start falling out of closets so fast it's scary.

[grumpy old fart]

23. Freeper? Duh....

sorry, I'll put on my own Reynold's Wrap hat....don't need ya to fit one for me...

[MelissaB]

25. Saracat,

I say tell it and let the shit hit the fans! Let us know. I'm tired of losing sleep and time with my family and wondering if what we are doing here is doing any good.

[alittlelark]

26. I've been thinking in the same vein since a day or so after the concession

I must admit that I am MORE scared by that concept than BBV. I am horrified to think that Nader was right, but on a much grander scale than most believe. I must say, I hope your info is wrong.

[mdb]

31. " if we knew they knew, then we know how they knew it".

Everyone seems to be in the know but me

But seriously. How would we know that?

[saracat]

35. That is the question.

And the answer, if correct, is not nice.

[MelissaB]

37. So you think that

a few people in the Dem. party knew or a lot of them?

[saracat]

41. That is the implication. I know nothing.

[shelley806]

54. Knew what??? That the election was rigged? And Clinton knew?

[New Earth]

40. so this is what i'm gettinig out of this

Kerry didn't know, but the Democrats (well a good number of them) were in on some kind of deal or 'knowledge' that the vote was going to be fixed so that Kerry would lose - and now Kerry sees what's happened and basically isn't stepping down....and that explains why the Democrats are so quiet....god that is a terrible thing to do to someone in general, let alone when they are trying to acheive their life-long dream. this is making me quite angry.

[intelle]

47. It's made me angry also

and, the media lockdown...it may not be because the press is pandering to the repubs at all, come to think of it.

[peekaloo]

61. the quiet ones will benefit in future scam elections.

sure would hate to have that pesky Anthrax Killer pop up again.


Fascism, love it or die.

[donkeyotay]

203. "Fascism, love it or die."

Damned if that doesn't say it all! Is it too late to start loving it, because from what I'm reading into this thread, a whole bunch of people who haven't learned to be quiet and get a long might be facing the other option.

I repent. Really. No, I love it. I do.

[Verve]

127. Would that explain why Kerry wants to start sponsering bills with

us, the people, rather than other politicians? If so it's a brilliant idea. Kerry is one tough cookie if he's planning to take on all the crooked politicians including ones in his own party! I'll support him!

[verdalaven]

208. I am with you!

I support Kerry

[ebayfool]

144. 'that is a terrible thing to do to someone'

It's a terrible thing to do to us & the country. What can we do to help fight it?

[brindis_desala]

43. truth is painful

I'm a newbie so i know i have not earned my credibility but you guys are smart and committed...do you really think the Dems had no choice but to roll over and let Porter Goss purge the CIA? But! We're not dead if we stay smart.

[RageKage]

50. letting them run wild, and look extreme...

Then when its time to fight, they can say (like Kerry did in the video) that this administration is full of extremists. Its perfect.

[Pirate Smile]

52. So, it isn't about the Clinton's, it is about the voting or counting the

votes? Am I reading between the lines OK or am I crazy?

[saracat]

65. Nope. You are not!

[dweller]

71. not crazy, or not reading correctly btwn the lines???

well, i'm just reading along here. Perhaps the old maxim ingorance is bliss and i'm in heaven applies...

dp

[TennisGuy2004]

42. Quite Frankly...

Yeah, some of that kind of crossed my mind.

It dovetails with Dubya's pronouncement in 2000 that "you can write it down" that he was going to win Florida.

ALSO, Dick Cheney mentioned one week before the election that he and Dubya were going to win 52% to 47%. To my knowledge no Presidential or Vice Presidential candidate in the history of this country has ever stated a predicted percentage of the vote he thought he was going to win.

It also fits perfectly with Hunter S. Thompson's viewpoint on the 2000 election as written on espn.com.

As for Clinton, he was, as usual, trying to "build a bridge" between the divisions in this nation and I can't fault him for that, no matter how much I hate Dubya and his ilk.

[shib]

62. Is it just me

Is it just me or is that entire 'health care' plan about how important our work *still* is encouragement to keep up the vote check? :p

Hmm, maybe I'm reading too much into it.

But, it's like Olbermann says. He doesn't talk at all in terms of context - especially the election. By just watching it you wouldn't be sure if he won or lost.

[BlueDog2u]

72. I'd be interested to know if one can still locate this claim in the record

"ALSO, Dick Cheney mentioned one week before the election that he and Dubya were going to win 52% to 47%. To my knowledge no Presidential or Vice Presidential candidate in the history of this country has ever stated a predicted percentage of the vote he thought he was going to win."

Cause that's pretty spooky if true. How could he possibly know that? -- unless, as saracat says, everything was worked out down the last detail weeks ahead of time, Rove-style?

[bunny planet]

91. I read that Cheney said that, I think I posted about it

somewhere on dailykos right after the election. He said they would win and it would most likely be B/C 52% to K/E 48%. Maybe it can still be googled.

[New Earth]

93. i remember seeing it

it was gross

[DLnyc]

94. Almost located in record

This link:

http://news.google.com/news?svnum=10&as_scoring=r&hl=en...

comes close: You need a subscription and I can't afford it!

Apparently the article is in:
New York Sun (subscription), United States - Nov 1, 2004

[Duer 157099]

211. Here's what that article said:

"Later, in an interview with NBC's Tom Brokaw, Mr. Kerry said he did not regret invoking Vice President Cheney's daughter, Mary Cheney, who is gay, during a debate with President Bush.

"She's made it a public thing. He's made it a public thing. And all I was trying to do was honor the reality that people are who they are," Mr. Kerry said.

The senator said Mr. Cheney's prediction of a Bush/Cheney victory, 52% to 47%, was "bravado."

"I hope America comes out and votes in record numbers, because this is the most important election of our lifetime," Mr. Kerry said. "And I believe America can do better."

http://www.nysun.com/article/4035

[DLnyc]

234. Thanks. I guess no one has any direct record of Cheney's prediction?

[Bread and Circus]

49. Do I need a decoder ring, or are u suggesting a deal was struck...

to get Hillary then nomination for 2008?

This rabbit hole is going way too deep for my tastes.

But hey, when the vote Fraud really gets in the MSM, they
can blame it on Clinton.

[New Earth]

51. she said a few times

this really has nothing to do with the clintons, that was a separate comment.

[saracat]

66. It is not about Hillary. I shouldn't have said anything about Clinton.

It has only confused things. Clinton is a sepearate issue. It is more about why he has had certain reactions .

[ahyums]

68. but you are saying that Clinton was compelled to say certain positive

things and if that was the case there must have been a reason

[jsamuel]

53. Bush said on election night that they had "strategies" that would make

them win despite the exit polls. Not votes, but "strategies"... that is suspicious all by itself.

[shelley806]

56. Might explain his late night last minute tript to Ohio and Cheneys to

Hawaii.

[riffnraff]

60. This post has sent everyones' imaginations run wild

Vague posts with little concrete information are no help to us. I have been reading this thread and I think I now got "it". But maybe I don't.

Even if it was setup to screw Kerry by Republicans and Democrats, there still is the problem of our election system is messed up. If they can just tweek the numbers to their liking and our votes are only to give them data to play with, then we truely are hopeless.

That is why we should grill these people (politicians) and make them honest, because we hire and fire them.

[jsamuel]

55. I see what you are saying now (I think)

The Dems knew it would happen, but couldn't prosecute the crime until after it was commited. Kind of like a drug deal that the cops are watching.

It isn't time yet so Clinton (one of the cops) is acting like he is trimming some hedges (undercover).

[shelley806]

57. Is this what's being said Saracat? eom

[saracat]

73. Not really. This is more to do with foreknowledge of votes!

and little to do with procecution. If you like a result you are not going to fix it!

[MelissaB]

77. So, at least some of

the dems wanted the election to turn out the way it did?

[IndyPriest]

75. Close, but more like...

SOME in the Dem party at least knew that the election was rigged (if not actual collaborators), and didn't want to stop it BECAUSE they feared Kerry would be as much trouble for them as the Bushies. OTHERS (Kerry, Clinton...) knew it would happen but couldn't prosecute the crime until after it was committed.

[ahyums]

58. Ok so what you are saying is that at some institutional level the

Democratic party has entered into a deal with the Republicans over results in future elections. It would have to be a pretty long term deal too because considering how badly the Democrats did this time round they would need some serious paybacks in the future for it to be worth their while. You might have heard what you might have heard but frankly I find the whole idea almost impossible to believe. For a start there has been absolutely nothing for the Democrats in this election they lost all over the place on the national level.

Secondly even if there was such a high level conspiracy for it to work out in the Democrats favour the whole thing would need to stay both secret and active for a long period of time in order that they have their day in the sun too. Now I know that if there was fraud the perpetrators don't think they will be caught the same can be said of criminals everywhere otherwise crime would no doubt be much lower, but all the same they must be aware of the possibility and being aware of it, entering into a long term deal would be madness even if they did want to entertain it.

The real question is what would be in it for the deal makers, let's assume that the Democrats would have done pretty well this last election without the alteration of the results, with the Presidency and fair few more Senate seats. What on earth could be available to make anyone complicit in taking that away. The only possible motivation would be personal ambition, but I can't see how that could possibly spread throughout an entire organization. So in short, I don't buy it, I don't see what could have been in it for the Democrats.

[saracat]

76. I am not saying this is true. I am saying this is what is said by those

who would know more than me. But I would rethink the term"Democrats". and think perhaps a bigger picture. This is more international in scope and it isn't about waht "democrats" gain. Anyway. It is just a thought. No one has to agree with it. Just think and watch. It is what I am going to do.Don't draw any conclusions yet.

[mdb]

82. I agree. If we can't get to the bottom of this in Ohio or other states...

because of stall tactics or the courts actions (similar to 2000)