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AtLiberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 05:25 AM
Original message
Why bother with a recall in Wisconsin?
Edited on Wed Mar-09-11 06:22 AM by AtLiberty
Walker and many of those thugs probably never won office in the first place, thanks to electronic voting.

If there is a recall, Wisconsin citizens will still be using the same flawed, fraudulent, insecure, unaccountable, non-transparent electoral process that put those people into power in the first place.

No telling how many office holders in federal, state, county and local office don't belong there. GWB won by election fraud TWICE...anything is possible.

If only the election reform movement could connect with what is happening in Madison.
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 05:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. Hand-counted, paper ballots please!!!
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Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 05:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. what I'm really worried about is the social conditioning that has happened
Probably not in Wisconsin, but down here in places like Alabama.

The Republicans (and pugs in drag) have rigged the elections for so long, that it has made it almost socially unacceptable to vote any other way.
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Sancho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 05:40 AM
Response to Original message
3. I couldn't agree more!
We need verifiable voting!
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AtLiberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. Thanks, Sancho
No one knows better than people like you!
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 05:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. Who ever just did and unrec is probably wondering why it stayed at 3
Got ya.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I just rec'd and it stayed at 3
Why would anyone unrec this before I had a chance to post?
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
5. Do you know what you are talking about concerning WI? I live here, and I do.
I have confidence in our voting machines and how ballots are counted. So please don't attach the voting problems in other states to Wisconsin because frankly, I haven't heard of them here.

You want to know why Walker got elected here? Really? It was because hundreds of thousands of those who voted for Obama could not be bothered to get out and vote here last November because they were unmotivated, disappointed, or demoralized or some other excuse. That's why Walker was elected and it had nothing to do with electronic voting or any other kind of voter fraud.

The prima donna wide receivers in football always cry for a flag when they miss a pass because if they didn't catch the ball that means that someone had to have interfered with them. Democrats are getting that way with election losses, that it had to be fraud because otherwise how could we ever lose? Well sometimes you lose because the people actually prefer the other candidate, or maybe, like here, your people didn't bother to get out and vote.

Governments are formed, policies and laws are made as a result of those who choose to show up and participate in the process. This "wah!, wah!, wah! we was robbed" attitude and excuses gets old. It's time for action, so here in Wisconsin we need to work to get out the vote in each and every recall election.

A sign I saw in Madison:





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Lefta Dissenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. bingo
and we do have paper ballots that can be recounted by hand, though we all know that the electronic counting machines and the central tabulator can be rigged.

Before the election, I knew Walker was a jerk, and yes, I voted because I ALWAYS vote. But as I learn more about what Walker did in Milwaukee County, I wonder why there weren't ads that targeted what he did with the guards in the courthouse, etc.

I hate to say it, but we have to stop being so nice!
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. bingo is more secure
If someone has confidence in the "can be rigged" machines, I sure wish they'd let us know their secret, because as far as I can tell, there is little reason to have any confidence.

So, folks like elocs may take this chance to tell us why we should absolutely believe Walker was really elected. It should be easy, eh?
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Lefta Dissenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. In order to steal it
Edited on Wed Mar-09-11 07:47 AM by Lefta Dissenter
someone would have to either rig the individual prom packs (the electronic counter in each voting machine) or rig the central tabulator.

I find it UNLIKELY (though not impossible, of course) that the prom packs would be rigged. We get those directly from the County, so someone at (or behind) the County would have to manipulate each one to miscount the ballots. HA, certainly didn't happen in Walker's county, where he got something like 33% of the vote.

If we decide we are going to trust the prom packs, then the other place to rig is the central tabulator. The results from each precinct are either electronically transferred or simply called in to the County, and those numbers entered in the tabulator.

After the 2004 election, I verified the results of probably 50 municipalities - making sure that what the precinct reported at the end of the day was the same as what was being reported by the central tabulator.

It's easy enough to set up a network of people to do that verification. Also, the ballots are public record, so if someone wants to do a handcount, have at it!

I'm not saying rigging can't be done with our system - not saying that at all. I'm just saying that I think our problem was voter apathy, and I'm petrified that we'll have the same problem in 2012 if people don't wake the hell up.

edited to add: not just voter apathy regarding actually voting, but apathy regarding LEARNING anything about the candidates! If ANYONE had paid the least bit of attention to what Walker had done as Co Exec in Milw Co, the vote totals over the entire state would have been as bad for Walker as they were in his own county. I KNOW some Union State Workers who voted for Walker because all they did was listen to his thin promises to bring jobs to the state. If they had bothered to see what he did, and what he SAID a couple of years ago that he wanted to do (eg privatize prisons), they would have known what was coming down the pike.
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. There are 1000+ municipalities who count votes in this state
Rigging all the tabulators, of all makes and models, between the time they are set up and tested a day or two before election day and the end of election tabulations on election day would be impossible. The pukes aren't that organized in this state.

Add to that the fact that in recounts, and there were many close races this past November where we had them, there were no signs of tampering anywhere.

Lastly, so many of those who work elections, manage the tabulators and count the votes are Dems, every one of which is very aware of the potential issues with their equipment and the process. Every municipality's election chief must make an effort to balance election workers with Dems and Pukes. Local Dem parties can force their own list of poll workers on all municipalities over a certain population, and that threshold is very low. So we have eyes in just about every polling location in the state.

Wisconsin has had a long tradition of holding their electoral process in the eyes of the public, not behind closed doors where this crap can happen.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Hello!
You actually wrote:
"Rigging all the tabulators, of all makes and models, between the time they are set up and tested a day or two before election day and the end of election tabulations on election day would be impossible."

I have to guess you know absolutely nothing about computer programming?
Cuz if'n ya did you wouldn't have posted such ridiculous disinformation.

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Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Ding! ing! Ding! "I hate to say it, but we have to stop being so nice!"
Time to stand up to these thugs.
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AtLiberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Election results in Wisconsin are wirelessly transmitted
Edited on Wed Mar-09-11 08:08 AM by AtLiberty
Votes in Wisconsin are wirelessly transmitted -- the same way votes were transmitted in Ohio to SmarTech in Tennessee in 2004. Ohio election reformists have accumulated massive evidence that Kerry won in Ohio. Attorneys were in the process of obtaining testimony of SmarTech's Mike Connell when his private plane mysteriously crashed just before his deposition.

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7652

Electronic votes which are not tabulated wirelessly are also unsafe. The software and hardware in the voting machines and/or the central tabulator could be manipulated. But why go through all that trouble when one can change the votes over a broad area, ie: an entire state, wirelessly?

And to those who have trouble grasping election fraud, ask yourselves if you truly believe all these Republican extremists could have received the popular vote? The Tea Party Movement was/is just cover to make you believe you lost. After all, if you believed a thug fraudulently won, you might become angry.
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GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. lol. record midterm turnout
that we all saw with our own lying eyes.
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Lefta Dissenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Some electronic, some still called in
But you can compare the results from the machine (printed tape) at the end of the day to what is shown in the final tally at the tabulator. Dane County usually gets theirs posted online throughout the election evening - very quick. If there are observers at the precincts, recording what is shown on the printout tapes, and then comparing to what is posted for the central tabulator, you can verify that those numbers haven't been changed.

I'm not saying that fraud doesn't occur - that's why I've spent days helping with verification after elections. With our system, and paper ballots, we at least have a way to recount if necessary.



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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. I hope Democrats learn the lesson from now on that you ALWAYS vote.
We don't all get to have our perfect and personal candidate who lines up with each and every one of our beliefs. The reality is that the winner in elections will usually be either and only a Democrat or a Republican so if Democrats want to abdicate their right to vote then that leaves Republicans free to take control and that's what happened here.

Walker received 90% of the number of votes cast for McCain in 2008, so the Republicans managed to turn out to vote last November. Yet Barrett only received 60% of the number of votes cast for Obama. If he would have received just 25% of those who voted for Obama but did not vote in the gubernatorial election here he would have beaten Walker. So I have no doubt that Walker won because Republicans turned out and Democrats were complacent.

Fortunately in the recall elections here the Democrats and those supporting our causes should have a distinct edge in motivation to get out and vote, something we should do every time, every election.
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AtLiberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Absolutely...
Election reformists *always* vote. We're the most cynical of the process, yet you can't keep us from the polls. I nearly puke every time I go to a polling place, knowing what I know.

In the age of electronic voting, our only hope of winning is showing up by such a large margin that it would be impossible to deny a victory.

Obama *never* would have won had only a small majority have showed up. For a Dem to get into the White House now requires a landslide victory. There was evidence of fraud in the 2008 presidential election, but few cared because Obama got into office.
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ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. We have paper ballots
and electronic scanning...there are random audits to verify machine counts against paper counts....no difference...
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GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. EXACTLY.
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AtLiberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
14. Wisconsin Votes Transmitted Wirelessly
Votes in Wisconsin are wirelessly transmitted -- the same way votes were transmitted in Ohio to SmarTech in Tennessee in 2004. Ohio election reformists have accumulated massive evidence that Kerry won in Ohio. Attorneys were in the process of obtaining testimony of SmarTech's Mike Connell when his private plane mysteriously crashed just before his deposition.

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7652

Electronic votes which are not tabulated wirelessly are also unsafe. The software and hardware in the voting machines and/or the central tabulator could be manipulated. But why go through all that trouble when one can change the votes over a broad area, ie: an entire state, wirelessly?

And to those who have trouble grasping election fraud, ask yourselves if you truly believe all these Republican extremists could have received the popular vote? The Tea Party Movement was/is just cover to make you believe you lost. After all, if you believed a thug fraudulently won, you might become angry.
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louslobbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
21. I just gave it another rec for good measure
Lou
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louslobbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. And I wouldn't trust an election without a paper trail to verify the results
the thieving Republicons steal enough in this country without stealing elections, which they do wherever and whenever they can. Why else would they not want paper verification for potential recounts? These people literally turn my stomach. I have dreams about them that I can't discuss here, but trust me, they're good dreams and only nightmares for them. I have this one dream about Rush Limbaugh....................and the next day the news papers report him missing and his big mouth is never heard from again.
Lou
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tcaudilllg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-11 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
24. LOL the GOP doesn't really want this.
Their crazier leaders do, but not their rank and file.

The state party is probably ducking for cover. ;)
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