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Onlooker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:31 PM
Original message
Our democracy is over and we're the only ones who know about it
Anyone who's paid attention to the posts in this forum has to believe there were major problems with this election and those problems threw the election to the Republicans. Yet, there's no way the election results are going to be overturned, no way any investigation is going to definitively prove fraud before the December deadline, no way the leaders of Ohio or the U.S. House of Representatives are going to address matters fairly, and no way the media is going risk stirring up the public.

This is a terrible situation we're in. What do we do? I think we have to press the Democratic Party into a more visible role. Right now the Party is proving Nader's complaints right.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. just look who represents the democratic minority
and you know there is no difference
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Letter To The Editor in our local paper....
"It is time we return this country to its roots, the 10 Commandments and the Bible". Heck, they don't need the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. They want right wing theocracy rammed down our throats as the law of the land. Wonder if they are willing to institute slavery and once again perform genocide on American Indians.
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BattyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. The author of that letter needs to ...
put down the Bible and pick up a history book. This country was not founded upon Christianity. :eyes:
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savetheuniverse Donating Member (455 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. no it wasn't founded on christianity
the brutal truth of the matter is that it was founded on genocide and slavery. We're doing everything we can right now to make sure that history doesn't become our future.
sorry , but we did say we were going to tell the truth in this forum.
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camby Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think we need to press for paper trails everywhere
HAVA needs to be amended to require a paper audit trail. This isn't about Dems vs Repubs - this is about democracy itself. The only way a democracy can survive is if all the people believe in the integrity/validity of the electoral process. Once a substantial % of the population calls that validity into question, your democracy is dead -REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT FRAUD ACTUALLY OCCURRED.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. That's the most profound post I've read on DU in a while, Camby
<oops! I think I accidentally hit the enter key...this might show twice??>


"Once a substantial % of the population calls that validity into question, your democracy is dead -REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT FRAUD ACTUALLY OCCURRED. "

So true, so true.

:kick: :kick:
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. WE MUST GET RID OF ELECTRONIC VOTING PERIOD
A "paper trail" is NOT the solution. You are still relying on a machine to correctly tabulate the vote and also relying on the tabulation at the central tabulation machine to be accurate. Remember that the vote you SEE on the receipt can still be altered inside the polling machine you use and/or in the central tabulator.

Think about it: You check the receipt. It goes in a box somewhere. Those electronic votes can still be changed and a new receipt printed. How are you going to prove that the receipt you saw is the receipt that is actually counted?

Without a piece of paper that ties you, personally, to that ballot, there is no proof at all. If you are given a receipt with a number and your precinct number, you can take that number in, present ID to verify that you were listed as a registered voter within that precinct, and request to see the votes recorded against it in the database. If the results are not the way you voted (or remember that you voted), how do you prove it? By requesting that the ballot registered to the number on the receipt be retrieved.

Some I have discussed this with argue that providing a voter receipt violates privacy. But you could be given an encrypted receipt (one that doesn't show the results because they would be encoded) and take it in (i.e., to your city hall) to be scanned to see whether or not it matches the results in the database registed against the number. You should also be able to verify that that database in which your votes are recorded shows the complete, official election results (to make sure it is the "official" database).

After you check your vote, your name would get checked off in the database so that no one else could come in with your receipt and try to view your vote.

The above scenario might be possible.

But, how much easier is it to just fill out a ballot and drop it in a box and have those ballots hand counted at the end of the day? Who cares if it takes a little longer? These recounts and lawsuits can drag on and on! I've even heard it said that "machine voting is cheaper". Oh, really? How much does pen and paper cost? And volunteers to count the votes?

THIS WHOLE E-VOTING THING IS A PURE SCAM DESIGNED TO BILK US OF TAXPAYER MONEY AND MAKE DIEBOLD, ET AL, RICH, ALL THE WHILE ROBBING US OF OUR VOTE AND OUR DEMOCRACY!

I say: OUTLAW THE DAMNED MACHINES ALTOGETHER!
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StephanieMarie Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. Democracy is dead when we cease to think
Hitler said, "What good fortune for those in power that the people do not think." We already know 53,000,000 or so of those, but we can't join them. We must fight.
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RUAWHACKO Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. 53 Million + However many they stole. So probably 57 Million
Now if only the 53 million of us with a clue could all get together & channel our energies..... We did it on Nov 2. Can we do it again? BEFORE 2008?


God I hope so
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. And Fight We Will
In the work place, media, and in the market place.

I've backed down every GOP co-worker. I have refused to turn on TV. I have changed my purchases to profit liberal leaning businesses.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Me, too, Erika: Buying "Christmas Presents" from ARTIST friends..not
"WalMart", or any duplicate thereof.

And only those ARTISTS who "get it". I will no longer fund this government unless I absolutely HAVE TO....i.e., gas for the car, electricity, taxes. Other than that, I'm buying from artists, yard sales, produce and meat from local farmers, my homeopathic medicines and herbs from people I know share my values. I'm OUTAHERE!! as far as feeding the beast.

Let THEM eat cake!! YELLOW cake!!

:kick: :kick: :kick:
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ZRB Donating Member (229 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. Actually...
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 09:49 PM by ZRB
The election could still be overturned with just a recount, no fraud-related litigation.

I firmly believe that if Kerry gets a reasonable amount of provisional ballots and the 90,000+ spoiled ballots are counted, then he'll edge Bush by seven or so votes. Hopefully more.

That doesn't take vote-tabulator tampering into consideration. Kerry could theoretically win the state easily if a recount could expose that.

That's why I'm going to be treating the Ohio Recount like election day all over again.

Democracy isn't dead yet, though it's close...



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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. How can that be possible.....
before December 13? Shouldn't we be hearing about this in the media? Everyone is sure silent.
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. I think Olbermann was right...
in his recent posting when he said that as soon as the Greens/Libertarians get the recount machine in Ohio moving then the media will be back on this story in no time. And if the Nader NH recount shows anomalies, I would look for the election to become the biggest story again.
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kuozzman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Kerry would have already
taken action if he wasn't fully aware of what is going on

I can't think of any other explanation, given the incredible amount of un/miscounted votes?
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Black boxes
don't have paper trails.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. Death to ALL the BOXES
back to paper, pen and handcounting.

PERIOD.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Great Way of Looking At It
I like that alot, looking at an OHIO recount like election day all over again.. That is sooooooo true when you think about it.
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KaryninMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. Ohio Recount =Election Day- LOVE Your optimism
AND Hope it's true because believe me, here in Florida, it's gonna take a lot more then the Greens and Lib. Parties to get them to recount in this lock-box Bush state. I still cannot figure out how they called the election today here with the amount of absentee ballots that were never counted, thrown away, etc. Disgusting. But, maybe Bev will save the day when they expose the evidence. Let's hope!

Taking your optimism about Ohio to bed with me. Maybe it will help me have good dreams- boy will they be welcome!
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savetheuniverse Donating Member (455 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
21. well, i tell ya
i am not a vengeful person, but, you see, i haven't slept in three days and cannot sleep now. I was *trying to fall asleep, then started thinking about iraq...and the 100,000 and the way they stole their way in the first time (or how long we going to keep talking about "he" when we know it's a filthy little klan...how many?). I mean if we could prove the first election was also fraud, wouldn't he have to be tried for crimes against humanity? genocide? ....he has destroyed so much and so many in such a short time. And of course it's not just him. There's a whole big fat ol bushel going down here and we don't even know yet who... In four years. Took Hitler 12 to destroy +/- 6 million, took all the rest of the US presidents combined bout 500 years to do in 15 million or so (mostly native and african americans).

i don't know about the numbers -- sounds like the recount may enough to get him out of office, but i'm thinking about the 100,000 iraqis he murdered, how many soldiers have we lost now? must be getting up there near 1500, and: i wonder could Andrew Veal's (nov 2 suicide) family file a wrongful death suit.

this is not a conspiracy, it's a crime. it's many crimes ; it's-make-the-pie-higher- pitbull on the pantleg o' opportunity-crimes

i'm thinking about whether he should get the easy way out: death penalty in texas or do time in upstate new york where there are a lot of minorities doin time thinking they don't have anything to lose or gain anyway so may as well stick it to him....again. and again and again.....

no one since Colonel Nits Make Lice Chivington and Andrew Jackson has SO inspired my outrage. and I didn't have to look at them. and you know what, probably at least half of the +/- 60 million he robbed feel that strongly about it.

if he had half a brain which we know he doesn't, he'd be taking the easy way out ....

b ut look on the bright side of it, he's also taught us to come together, I know he's made me feel more solidarity with fellow americans

right after the show election, Carl Bernstein, drawing the comparison between Watergate and the mood in the country after the spectacle was over, said: the difference was, Watergate UNITED people. Unfortunately, we face a very serious problem because these crooks, unlike Nixon, have succeeded not only in robbing us of our livelihood, our pride, our hope--they have stripped a substantial portion of the population of any sense of integrity, any sense of civic responsibility, even interest....there is an absolutely paralyzing sense of despair (so you're not gonna get him anyway...you're not gonna turn over the election...he's not gonna give up--most of my friends are driving me insane with that defeatism right now. slowly i'm managing to bring them around)

I dunno moderators: i do not think that kind of defeatism is good for DU, not right now anyway...wonder if we might consider a temporary restraining order--naw, we don't like orders....how bout a temporary restraining REQUEST to get the fucking DEFEATIST crap out of here. Or maybe we could start a defeatest thread and whenever anyone of us has doubts, we can just go in there and spout offf.

Yeah, and we have to start thinking as well how we are going to get the people through this crisis. This is why the people don't want to belief it--it's what i'm saying. The german's may have their Vergangenheitsbewltigung (mastery of the past), we have a major GEGENWARTSBEWLTIGUNGSPROBLEM (mastery of the present) going on here. People were pissed enough when they thought he won...wo....is me...when they find out he didn't. WE MUST BRING THE PEOPLE TOGETHER it is the only way. We must see ourselves as one human mass of people that has just been fucked beyond belief. And that in the aftermath of 4 years' heavy propaganda ....

DAMN it bev harris and DU you never should have figured it out! (just kidding)

so John Kerry I hope the hell you're out there somewhere listening or some little birdy is chirping in your ear.... cause you have your work cut out for you.

Money. Money always helps take away the sting, especially when people have been driven to such depths as they have under these thieves. We have to find ways to make the American PEOPLE real feel the "strength" of the economy. Like some sort of semi-immediate relief. Yeah, that might work--so challenge everybody: how can we get health care and economic relief in place as fast as we just pulled this off?

I just keep thinking there has to be some INTERNATIONAL LAW under which these guys can be prosecuted -- can we PROVE they were up to the same thing last time? If so, then these guys have no authority, everything they have done in the last four years was done with less than "no mandate"-- and they aren't "rogue programmers" -- they are rogue criminals and we need a Nuremberg tribunal. Let's have it in Chicago. Naw, that one goes to NY--hands down. We do still have our Handcock and Sears Towers.

Actually, that may not be as tough as it sounds, depending what goes down with the Celcius 3/11 meltdown -- could be pennies raining from heaven here.


Oh god another one of my four foot long posts. sorry. just think of me as the village idiot and quit reading if it gets to be too much. I need a blog--for now call me the squatter blogger. I'm outta here. Let's go see what else the internet fairies have been up to...hehe.

Is that the answer to where Moore, Stewart, and Maher have been? Better be dammit, or your ratings are going DOWN. By the time Bush's done in Iraq, there will only be a handful of iraqis left anyway--i suggest a trade: let him have the oil fields, we'll take the people--let em have the ranch and we'll figure out a way to get by without the oil. Such a simple plan. Seufz.

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Hobbes199 Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
20. A little post-election depression disorder going on
I've laid into a few people last week, based on them not seemingly caring that we've now moved to a fascist country. Felt a little bad about it, but I find it frustrating that others who are much more politically savvy than me don't even get what this means -- letting them steal the election to the highest office in the nation, controlling all three branches of government, by 2006 enough of a senate majority to pass anything they want, appointing up to 3 judges to the supreme court, and then getting an amendment through to back out the president's two term limit.

"Oh, we'll get them next time!" -- What are you talking about?
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saddemocrat Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
22. me too
Onlooker, I'm suffering from a similar post-election depression. The worst part of all of this in my eyes is the utter APATHY of everyone I know....they just don't WANT to know. I find myself laying awake worrying about all of this..the election, Iraq....I'm throughly disgusted that our media has paid no attention to the real issues. There is no investigative journalism about anything anymore. I am sickened...and I feel powerless. I watched an Ohio post-election voter focus group on c-span yesterday and was just outraged by the conservatives on there praising Bush.

That is what is so great about this group. I come hear and read at least 5 times a day :D Regardless of what happens, I know that there is a place where people are thinking critically about the issues and aren't afraid to ask the difficult questions.

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