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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:32 PM
Original message
Way to Rig Elections on Scale Unimagined - Right Here Right Now
As many states in the US get rid of paperless computerized voting, new ways to rig elections are promoted. Don't let this get past you - this is a threat to all of us, and could undo every bit of work we have done over the years. We've made it unprofitable for voting vendors to sell paperless computerized voting systems, so a new hole in the wall has developed. What would be the easiest way to rig elections on the grandest scale of all? Internet Voting. But it has to be "seeded" somewhere first, to lull officials and the public into thinking it is safe.

Pretty soon this hole will be a big crack in the dam.

Internet Voting is being proposed in several states: Just two of several are Washington and Maryland. Washington's SOS is leading the way in that state, and Maryland has legislation to do a feasibility study. Mayland's venture into internet voting is hidden in the benign sounding Voters Rights Protection Act of 2009 (SB320)
None of these states seem to care that the computer sciences community and the 30 computer scientists and network security experts have signed a statement against the use of the Internet for transmittal of voted ballots.
And with Linda Lamone at the helm of Maryland elections, don't expect her to recommend having real internet security experts to provide input.


Paul DeGregorio, one of the nations former top election officials is working for a company that sells internet voting services:

Everyone Counts Jul 9, 2007 ... Paul DeGregorio, former Chair of the US Election Assistance Commission and COO of IFES, joins Everyone Counts as COO ...


Former EAC Chair Gregorio's company ran the Presidential primary for Democrats Abroad, giving the company high visibility:


Americans abroad can now vote online
By JESSICA BERNSTEIN-WAX, Associated Press Writer
Mon Jan 21, 7:25 AM ET

..."The online system is incredibly secure: That was one of our biggest goals," said Lindsey Reynolds, executive director of Democrats Abroad. "And it does allow access to folks who ordinarily wouldn't get to participate." U.S. citizens wanting to vote online must join Democrats Abroad before Feb. 1 and indicate their preference to vote by Internet instead of in the local primaries wherever they last lived in the United States. They must promise not to vote twice for president, but can still participate in non-presidential local elections. Members get a personal identification number from Everyone Counts Inc., the San Diego-based company running the online election. They can then use the number to log in and cast their ballots.
http://web.archive.org/web/20080127171518/http://news.y...


Now the Secretary of State of Washington, Sam Reed - wants to use that state's military as internet voting guinea pigs

Online voting system would require scrutinyThe Olympian Published February 15, 2009
....
Critic John Gideon from Voters Unite, a national voting watchdog organization, testified that the National Institute of Standards and Technology issued a report in 2008 that concluded the Internet is not safe for voting. He also criticized the proposed legislation in this state because it lacks public oversight and does not provide for federal testing or certification of the voting software. He also asked where the money is going to come from to put Washington at the forefront of Internet voting technology.

In some respects, Reed is asking voters and the Legislature to trust him. He and his staff say they only will research the options and will settle on a system only that is both safe and secure.

But the bills before lawmakers say the Internet voting system is not subject to voting-system standards. That's moving in the wrong direction. What's needed is more, not less outside scrutiny.

Reed's legislation should be amended to require that any Internet system he suggests undergo vigorous independent testing and analysis by technology experts. It was, after all, those experts who poked holes in the proposed federal voting system.

Before lawmakers pass any legislation, they must ensure that any Internet voting system in this state undergo vigorous examination, testing and certification before it's put into place.


Wake UP! The thief is on our back door.



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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Internet voting is insane.
It's begging to be robbed.
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DaLittle Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. This IS... CORPORATISTNATION!
Edited on Mon Feb-16-09 08:56 PM by DaLittle Kitty
They run our country through the lobbyist conduit through which their corporate $$$dollars flow to the campaign coffers of the "elected class" who in turn do their bidding in return for ... "future considerations!"

This IS the barter in trade that passes for our American political system.

Publicly financed elections as described by John Russell after his 2006 election contest would be a very good place to start... :) click on make your vote count yes we can

www.johnrussellforcongress.com
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DaLittle Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. So Who Represents US? Answer... Nada!
:puke:
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Internet voting is a viciously horrible idea. (nt)
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. Internet voting is even less secure than the repugs electronic voting machines.
Nothing less hand counted paper ballots.
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Jack Bone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. K&R.....nt
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Yellow Horse Donating Member (462 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
5. Sorry, we can't pay attention to this. We are too busy tooting for Hand Counted Paper Ballots and...
...ripping into Congressman Holt before he even introduces his bill.

No time for new and genuine threats. Thanks anyway for all the good information, but sorry, too busy.


( I'll give this thread a K & R anyway, ;-) )
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diva77 Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. It's already on the internet - LA County central tabulator is rigged with the internet.
I hope Obama calls a meeting with National Association of Secretaries of State to start shining a light on the vastness of corruption in elections, HAVA, etc.
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flyingobject Donating Member (324 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. wonder who will hire the best hackers
to determine the outcome of the elections?

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. Arizona DEMS actually used it in 2000
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
9. Even if it were secure, which it isn't, it's a bad idea.
Edited on Sun Feb-15-09 08:51 PM by Laelth
Just makes it easier for the affluent to vote. Many people do not have convenient internet access. Most affluent people do. They should have to come down to the polls on election day and stand in line like everyone else.

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--bad typing.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
10. Ballots from the internet is good, counting across internet is insane.
Paper ballots, authorized and counted by WE THE PEOPLE.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
11. Internet voting would be just another way to keep the poor from voting. n/t
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bagrman Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
12. Vote by mail, Vote by Mail, Vote by Mail. I know, I know, it's to simple.
In Oregon it's been used successfully for a few years now and if you want a recount, we've got all the ballots right here.

Everyone with a drivers license is registered to vote or you contact the elections department and get registered.
You get your ballot in the mail box address on your drivers license.
It's on the radio when they come out, if you don't get yours, call or go get one.
Fill out the ballot and place it in a secrecy envelope and that goes into the signature envelope.
Sign the envelope and send it.
If the signature doesn't match with the one on file it goes into the shit can.
If they match then the secrecy envelope is pulled and it goes into the hopper.
The envelopes are then emptied and then they are counted. ( by a frick'n machine)

Sure someone could steal their old aunts ballot and fill it out for her the way they want and steal her vote, that's been going on forever. But that is better then someone flipping a switch and flipping the entire vote from one to another candidate.

To better the system, I would be to drop the voting machines in the river and have the seniors of the high schools get the job of counting, under the supervision of the election officials of course. This way we get people counting that haven't really formed a political opinion and we start training the next generation of voters.

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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I would think the theft would occur within the Post Office by vote-stealing operatives. nt
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bagrman Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #14
30. You have to copy the signatures, and that would be tough on 100 ballots.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Who checks signatures? nt
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Don't tell my daughter's freshman class that.
"I would be to drop the voting machines in the river and have the seniors of the high schools get the job of counting, under the supervision of the election officials of course. This way we get people counting that haven't really formed a political opinion and we start training the next generation of voters."

Don't tell my daughter's freshman class that.
They not only have well-formed political opinions but informed political opinions because in many cases they have formed them by doing more research than their parents and grandparents have ever done.
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bagrman Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #17
29. Thats great, they would be excited about doing their civic duty.
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Better believe it!
They'd be all over that job...and get it right, too!
:toast:
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #12
32. "better then someone flipping a switch" doesn't mean it's good.
Edited on Tue Feb-17-09 10:39 AM by Wilms
And what prevents "someone flipping a switch" on the machine that does do the counting? An "insider attack" is likely the more likely vote stealing scenario. And that's before we discuss ballot security, coercion, and vote selling/buying.

Vote by mail has it's charm but doesn't find me near as enthusiastic as it's supporters with their cherry-picked arguments.

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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #12
36. Not a good idea in "party machine" states. Every state isn't Oregon.

And Oregon took over 15 years to prepare before instituting Vote By Mail. Instituting VBM quickly in other states would be a disaster -- especially in one of the party machine states like IL, PA, etc.

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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
13. What, the repubics have figured out the Internets is more than a
bunch of tubes?
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. And it's more than a bunch of nets, too. nt
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
16. Text from an otherwise good bill in Md...
SECTION 2. AND BE IT FURTHER ENACTED, That the State Administrator
of Elections and the Office of the Attorney General shall:
(1) review the efficacy of, and any legal impediments to, implementing a
system to allow qualified State voters to vote over the Internet;
(2) (i) consult with local election officials in Maryland to ascertain the
impact and assess any administrative challenges associated with implementing a
system of voting over the Internet; and
(ii) consult with officials in other jurisdictions in the United States and
in other countries that have implemented voting over the Internet for political
campaigns, and consult with private entities that have utilized voting over the
Internet for business purposes, to discuss their experiences with such a system;
(3) note any legal impediments to implementing a system of Internet voting
in the State and identify any changes to State statutory or constitutional law that
would be required to implement such a system;
(4) estimate the fiscal impact to the State and to the counties to implement a
system of voting over the Internet; and
(5) on or before December 31, 2010, submit a report of findings and
recommendations to the Governor, and, in accordance with 21246 of the State
Government Article, to the General Assembly.


I should crosspost this to the Md. forum.

While it's not an implementation of internet voting, from inside the tent it looks like a camel nose.

-Hoot

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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
18. Best way to end this nonsense
is for us to convince the RW that we have better geeks than they do, and we're out to build a super election-theft system to ensure our "permanent majority."

Bet it wouldn't take 'em long to squeal and demand an end to net voting then.
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. only in dem districts
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Not if they think we're working on a methodology
to take the R districts from them.
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DetlefK Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
20. Simple solution: national election laws for national elections
Honestly, I see no point in giving every state individual election laws and individually designed ballots.

National elections affect the whole country. So why no standardized country-wide election law?

And such crap, like trusting the worlds biggest communications-network on security, would never get past a bipartisan entity like congress.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. That's, in part, how we got HAVA.

A mixed bag, to be kind.

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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
22. REGISTER REPUBLICAN FOR 2012.... support PALIN.... 4 more years of OBAMA ! ! !
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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
23. The president of the company has a video interview on San Diego Fox news.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. thank you Kablooie
I will share this with a bunch of people.

The Internet Voting promo is heavy!
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
24. This is completely insane. Anybody, anywhere could rig it.
If you know what you're doing, you could do it sitting at your desk at home.

Here, Agent Mike, I'll tell everybody how to do it. Just jigger the routing tables to bring all the traffic to your computer, modify the votes, then send them back out where they're supposed to go by IP address.

Of course, you know that. It's already been done.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
31. This must become a frontburner issue BEFORE the next election!!!!
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
35. I'm giving this a kick again, because we need to pay attention!

Really bad implications for the future if this gets going.

Just toss your vote out onto the Internet, and hope it doesn't get diverted to some bank basement in TN for "processing" before getting counted.

Yikes.

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a777pilot Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
37. No Way!
Fight the use of electronic and Internet voting. That use is nothing more than a recipe for major fraud.

Yes, I know there is fraud with paper ballots but never on the scale of electronic/Internet fraud. Without a verifiable paper trail there is no democracy. It's that simple and that scary. but it looks that is the way we are headed. We are now on the road to a President for life and hereditary rights to office.
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