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SCOTLAND GAVE UP HAND COUNTING IN MAY 2007

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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 04:45 PM
Original message
SCOTLAND GAVE UP HAND COUNTING IN MAY 2007
Edited on Thu Dec-18-08 04:54 PM by WillYourVoteBCounted
BECAUSE THEY ADOPTED INSTANT RUNOFF, AKA SINGLE TRANSFERRABLE BALLOT.

HAND COUNTED PAPER BALLOTS R.I.P.

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. STV is a nightmare without electronic counting
And that was for their local council elections - though since the Scottish Parliament was being voted on at the same time, they did electronic counting for that too. If it's any consolation, the recommendation was that electronic counting only be used when the STV local council elections are involved.

And, on a technical note, it wasn't 'instant runoff' - the voting districts were to elect multiple councillors (typically 3 or 4), not just one. Instant runoff voting is STV, but with only 1 winner - so that only the losers needs their votes redistributed. Instant runoff is therefore much easier to count by hand, since it doesn't involve fractional votes. Full STV involves fractions of a winning candidates' votes getting redistributed, and that's why you need a computer, or incredibly patient and accurate counters and mathematicians.
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diva77 Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. what is STV? n/t
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Single Transferable Vote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote

The Single Transferable Vote (STV) is a form of preferential voting in multi-member constituencies.

Preferential voting means that instead of casting a single vote for a single candidate, a voter can express a list of preferences. Votes are cast by putting a '1' in the column next to the voter's preferred candidate, a '2' beside their second favourite candidate and so on until they no longer wish to express a preference. Voters may vote for candidates within parties and across parties as well as for independents.

http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/votingsystems/stvi.h...


Voting in it is quite easy; but the details of how votes are redistributed from elected or eliminated candidates is quite complicated - which is why many systems prefer to do it in a computer.

For an example in practice, from the Northern Ireland Assembly elections:

http://election.press.net/nistv.html
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Cary NC couldn't count 3,000 IRV ballots accurately
It may be "easier", but it isn't easy and it isn't transparent.

Instant Runoff Voting isn't "instant" either.

Thanks to IRV, both Pierce County Washington and San Francisco CA are using uncertified untested
Sequoia voting software to "count" the IRV votes.

This counting cannot be easily viewed by the voters. Voters have to "Trust" the software,
which is a dirty idea.

SF puts data from the ballots online, but this isn't actual ballot images, but numbers representing the voted data.

Again, voters having to "trust" but not verify.

Counting IRV is not straight forward because it is not an additive function - each individual ballot has to be considered, then the choices have to be "reallocated" .

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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-08 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. You just can't get over it, can you
hand counted paper ballots WILL BE coming to a town near you, whether its a simple hand count audit or a full hand count of the paper ballots AT THE POLLING PLACE. it is GOING TO HAPPEN!!!

The secret vote count scam IS UP!! Only a matter of time, Only a matter of time my friend.

:) K&R
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Well said Kevin
What exactly is WYVBC doing in this forum anyway? Always been a mystery to me...
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. for starters, I've more than earned right to be in this forum
1. led activism in my state to get paper ballots.
2. sued Diebold.
3. fought lobbyists of NC ACC who tried to overturn the paper ballot law.
4. have frequently had opeds published in major NC papers in support of voter verified paper ballots
5. have assisted other states with their efforts by sharing information and research.

If you want hand counted paper ballots, you have to do more than post the same thing over and over
in the DU forum. You have to actually work at it, start a movement, write, lead, communicate, mobilize, research, educate. And it helps to provide up to date information.

Its sad to point to Scotland for hand counted paper ballots, but it proves one point - that country had the best voting method available, and they were conned into giving it up, all for "Single Transferrable Vote", a form of Instant Runoff Voting (IRV)

Instant Runoff Voting is being peddled in the US hard and heavy, and so the message today and for the future should be - if you want hand counted paper ballots, then reject IRV.

Again, pay attention - SCOTLAND USED TO HAVE HAND COUNTED PAPER BALLOTS.
SCOTLAND WAS CONNED INTO TRADING HCPB FOR THE SINGLE TRANSFERRABLE VOTE AND VOTING MACHINES.

Hopefully someone will come away from this message with that warning - keep elections simple.
Don't adopt IRV or STV or any of these other ranking schemes.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. you love you some Tombstone Pizza
don't ya

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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. better try to keep them where they are, and better learn who the enemies of HCPB are
the enemies of HCPB went to Scotland, and they got rid of hand counted paper ballots.

If you want HCPB, you have to do some work.

Do you have a group?
Do you lead?
DO you get Op/eds published?
Do you write (something besides simplistic slogans at DU)?
Do you have hand counted paper ballots in your jurisdiction?
How long have you been posting the same thing over and over and over, not realizing that your model
of HCPB was outdated?
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:56 PM
Original message
delete
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 11:58 PM by kster
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Your kids have the right to hand count the paper ballots before
them ballots get smuggled out of their neighborhood? Do you agree? I personally think they have that right, but do you believe your kids have that right, and if you believe that they have the right to hand count any and all of those paper ballots, you should fight for a procedure to be put in place that affords them that right.

If you think that your kids should not have the right to a hand count audit/full hand count of the paper ballots, whether it be an small hand count audit or a full hand count, AT THE POLLING PLACE, PLEASE EXPLAIN, WHY? :)
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ShadyShenanigans Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. You appear to be against hand counted paper ballots
Can't optical scanners be rigged too? How do you know that the "verified voting" you advocate for won't simply be rubber stamping?
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. only if you didn't read the post, or...
if you think the author went to Scotland.

:shrug:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. well, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt....
I'm done.

Strangely, you weren't.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I kinda doubt that he's really done.
Tomstoned again- three of his Tombstoned 'personalities' in this thread alone, on top of five previously TSed IDs.

Will eight of these give him a hint?

"You guys are awful people. You are obfuscators and liars.", "For some reason my username wasn't working. Maybe DU doesn't want me here?"

Somehow I doubt he'll get the granite hint, hint, hint, hint, hint, hint, hint, hint.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. enjoy your cement pizza
You keep coming back, and you keep getting this:







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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. KSTER, please let us know when you get HCPB in your home town
rather than try to shoot other people down, tell us all about your successes.

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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Your kids have the right to hand count the paper ballots before
them ballots get smuggled out of their neighborhood? Do you agree? I personally think they have that right, but do you believe your kids have that right, and if you believe that they have the right to hand count any and all of those paper ballots, you should fight for a procedure to be put in place that affords them that right.

If you think that your kids should not have the right to a hand count audit/full hand count of the paper ballots, whether it be an small hand count audit or a full hand count, AT THE POLLING PLACE, PLEASE EXPLAIN, WHY?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Because internets BS artists would rather spew about it than actually organize n/t
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Prepostericity Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. this thread was very enlightening n/t
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
23. Why don't you tell us all how you have implemented this in your own county? n/t
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
16. .


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