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A Response To All Those DUers Who Think That Election Fraud Is Not An Isssue In 2008

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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 03:54 AM
Original message
A Response To All Those DUers Who Think That Election Fraud Is Not An Isssue In 2008
Dear DU,

Today the greatest list has several entries relating to Greg Palast and RFK Jnrs article with the headline "ITS STOLEN ALREADY". In many of those threads DUers have popped up complaining that Palast has gone too far - that such talk is demoralising - some have even gone so far as to accuse Palast of wanting Obama to lose.

What follows is a response to that sentiment. It is needed because even after six long years of talking about this stuff some people still seem to think this is tinfoil.

Obvioysly it is alarming what Greg Palast and RFK Jnr is saying and I hope everybody is alarmed. It is time to open your eyes.

The very same media that has been telling you that the voting machine story is oveblown since 2003 has also been telling you - since 2003 - that the housing bubble was sustainable and that selling variable rate mortgages to poor people was a good idea. It is high time that people woke up and realised that they are being lied to by the people that they trust.

Palast and RFK Jnrs story is a warning.

It is one which is being delivered as clearly as it possibly can by two of the smartest people in the room in one of the best magazines in the world. They are not just telling people whats going on. They comic is all about empowering people to do something about it.

This story is being told somewhat shrilly perhaps - but it needs to be. And hopefully THIS TIME the election integrity movement has finally got the ear of the US Public. Because this is a message that needs to be heard. In the past the likes of Daily Kos has banned discussion of election fraud, hopefully those days are now over.

ANYONE WHO THINKS THAT ELECTION STEALING IS NOT AN ISSUE THIS ELECTION BECAUSE THE PUBLIC WILL IS CERTAIN TO OVERCOME ANY THEFT EFFORT IS A FOOL



Harsh words. Yes.

Intended to arouse strong emotions. Yes.

THIS MESSAGE IS LOUD BECAUSE IT NEEDS TO BE LOUD
MANY PEOPLE HERE HAVE BEEN YELLING ABOUT THIS FOR YEARS
AT LEAST 4 ELECTIONS 2000-2002-2004 & 2006 HAVE ALREADY BEEN STOLEN
STEALING ELECTIONS IS NOT DIFFICULT IT HAS HAPPENED
AND IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN



Even leaving aside electronic vote fraud altogether the last 2 presidential elections were stolen by Secretaries of States and corrupt disgraceful courts and partisan officials. Greg Palast and RFK Jnrs investigations have shown this conclusively.

And yet still we have the reaction of numerous DUers denigrating these men and their supporters.

Several of those who have been making snarky remarks about Palast and RFK are known disrupters - some of these people seem to be making a career out of denigrating election integrity activists. They do not usually emerge into the light of this forum however and it will be interesting if they turn up in this post.

And then there is electronic democracy.

AT PRESENT THERE IS NO WAY TO VERIFY A US ELECTION..... IPSO FACTO THE US IS NOT A DEMOCRACY?



:WTF:

And the answer is probably not anymore. Certainly not a functional democracy.

The 2000 Election was hacked electronically...
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0310/S00211.htm - Diebold Memos Disclose Florida 2000 E-Voting Fraud

The machines used to count the 2002 election were completely hackable - both the optical scans and the touchscreens - see the movie
http://www.hackingdemocracy.com /

See also reams of research.... moch of which was conducted here at DU.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0307/S00064.htm - Bigger Than Watergate (by me)
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0307/S00065.htm - Inside A U.S. Election Vote Counting Program
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

The 2004 Election was hacked
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0411/S00142.htm - 47 State Exit Poll Analysis Confirms Swing Anomaly
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0706/S00164.htm - Bigger Than Watergate II (George On The Block & The White Ghosts Of NYC)
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0706/S00165.htm - Election 2004: The Urban Legend

The primaries were hacked
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0806/S00182.htm - CLINTON BEATS EXIT POLLS BY WIDE MARGIN IN EVERY STATE - The Democratic Primaries 2008:

And now the Media and Exit Pollsters are preparing to lie to you...
http://usacoup.scoop.co.nz/?p=664

" YORK - Barack Obamas tendency through the Democratic primaries to perform better in exit polls than he actually does at the ballot box has some media organizations nervous heading into Election Night.

Television networks want to avoid having their performance become an issue for the third straight presidential election. Their political experts hope that experience gained during the primaries will help things run smoothly Nov. 4.

ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, Fox News Channel and The Associated Press pool resources to conduct exit polls in select precincts, hoping to glean information about why people vote the way they do and to help predict a winner or loser. A combination of actual vote counts and exit polls is generally used to call a state for one candidate or another.

Exit polls frequently overstated Obamas vote during the primaries by as much as 3 percentage points."


Yes it is alarming.

Very.

So be alarmed. And don't shoot the messengers. We are doing you all a favour.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. GDP Crosspost here...
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. as I said elsewhere
I don't believe anyone actually believes the exit poll results from 2004. No one I know thought that Kerry would win Minnesota, Pennsylvania, and New Hampshire by double digits, as the exit polls say -- and I don't think anyone believes that he did, except tactically when pressed. It's like believing in the infallibility of the Bible.

Obama actually outperformed pre-election polls on average. It's pretty selectively credulous to imply that he was robbed based on exit polls that are known to be prone to error (see above).

If you want to make credible points about what happened in 2004, you need to use credible data. Otherwise you're just relying on people's gullibility, and that would be a shame. That goes for Palast and Kennedy, too.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. As I remember
the Bard had Polonius saying

"to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man"

Good advice, no?


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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Hiho Galloglas
Tis a fine crisp spring morning here in Aotearoa.

Hope all is well.

The advice from Hamlet is grand indeed.

al
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I don't know that Polonius is right
Many people seem to be true to themselves, and false to many other people.

That's why I like rational discourse: it tends to moot the question of who is being true to themselves in favor of the question, what is true?
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Even better than rational discourse is the full, rich flavor of perfectly blended tobacco.
Thank you for smoking, OTOH.

And you know, demanding the impossible while overlooking the obvious requires the steady nerves that only a premium cigarette can lend. It is so true that a cigarette can do so much for the smoker, it almost goes without saying. And yet it must be said repeatedly.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. and thank you for derailing, Kurovski
(air kiss)
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. There's no derailing you, kiddo.
And the train always shows up on time.

*puffity-puff-puff*
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. A New Mantra - Minnesota, Pennsylvania, and New Hampshire
Has now appeared in at least four posts I have seen... I wonder if there are more?

What is it with these states OTOH? Have you perhaps written a paper on them?

What in particular has got your goat about these three states?

Do you have some special kind of insight they they were not stolen? (seems extraordinarily unlikely)


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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. what part of my post did you not understand?
I'm pretty darn sure they weren't stolen, since Kerry won all three. Not that I rule out the possibility of fraud favoring Kerry, but I have no need of the hypothesis here.

So, based on your extensive expertise in U.S. politics, perhaps you can discuss the likelihood that Kerry won all three by double digits.
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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. I for one trust the exit polls far more than the electronic voting machines.
I'm not sure what you mean by this:

"I don't believe anyone actually believes the exit poll results from 2004."

Not "anyone"??

And what do you mean by the "exit poll results"? You mean nobody believes the results which were obtained were actually the results that were obtained, or that these exit poll results were somehow jiggered to fit some desired outcome?

Do you mean that people aren't taking into account the MOE?

Do you mean there's something methodologically wrong with exit polls in general or just the ones that are done on American elections?

Or just ones you don't approve of because of some ideological bias of your own or because of some super-sophisticated refinement that you are aware of or pushing for that they don't now use but that they could use and thus obtain results far better than the ones they are now obtaining?

You didn't mention in your short list of dupes of exit polling Steve Freeman. Does he belong on your list?

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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. as I've said several times
I don't think anyone really believes that Kerry won Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, and Minnesota by double digits. I think that some people affirm this, when pressed, as a logical concomitant of their uncritical faith in exit polls, much as Young Earth Creationists, when pressed, affirm all sorts of things as logical concomitants of theirs. But if people really believed that Kerry won PA, NH, and MN by double digits, I think they would talk about it on their own, instead of resorting to all this defensive posturing when skeptics raise the point.

So, I'll just ask point-blank: do you really believe that Kerry won PA, NH, and MN by double digits? Really? You won't just start waving your hands about "margin of error" until the subject changes?

I do respond to evidence, so if someone can convince me that he or she really believes this, I will have to change my statement. More to the point, it would be interesting if anyone can make a decent case that it's true.

Now, as I assume you know, you wouldn't be done when you made the case for those three states (or for Kerry winning by 31 in New York). There are still 46 states plus DC to go, and a lot of them pose trouble for your purported position. But we can start with three.

I ultimately can't tell what Steve Freeman really believes about anything whatsoever. He certainly talks as if he believes that the exit polls were accurate. I haven't seen any indication that he really thinks Kerry won these three states by double digits.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
6. i saw your thread and thought "does anyone STILL think election fraud is a myth?" sigh.
indeed -- great post ATC.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. ATC?
Yes. Well that was my thought too... but OTOH is taking quite a lot of convincing.
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Fly by night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Try the "ignore" button -- you'll like it.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Giving it some serious thought....
But its a shame the newbies who turn up here for rational discourse don't have it set to ignore for some folks by default.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. I don't think it matters whether you attempt to rebut my critiques
I'm still not convinced you ever figured out what "Urban Legend" is even about.

So, do as you will.
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machI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 05:51 AM
Response to Original message
14. I have been thinking about who controls the Exit Polls
It does not take a large leap in imagination to see the Republicans gaining control of the Exit Polls to cover their tracks. The Republicans were burned twice in 2000 and in 2004 by the exit polls, this year they will throw big bucks and institutional power at influencing the data.
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Fly by night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. 191 posts in less than two days. (WTF?)
Edited on Sun Oct-19-08 08:06 AM by Fly by night
Man, get some sleep.

Then come back to this forum and learn what we already know about election fraud and have known since November, 2004.

BTW, the Republicans weren't burned by exit polls in 2000 and 2004. In the words of David Dill, a cyper-security expert:

"The 2004 exit polls were the world's biggest burglar alarm. And no one was listening."

Edited to add: Welcome to DU.

Now get some sleep -- really.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. quote check
I think Fly by night is attempting to quote Bruce O'Dell, who says in Uncounted that the exit polls were the world's loudest burglar alarm.

Not to be confused with David Dill, the Stanford computer scientist.
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
21. Kick.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-23-08 04:01 AM
Response to Original message
22. You have to admire the way OTOH has punctuated this thread....
Thats dedication for you. He is a man who beleives passionately that the consistent failure of exit polls in recent elections is evidence of nothing much. He is not afraid to wear his heart on his sleve about it and to spend a considerable amount of time to make sure we know he thinks what he thinks.

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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-23-08 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. compare my posts and yours
I'm confident that I spend less time trying to correct you than you do giving me things to try to correct.

Perhaps there aren't any political scientists in your country (need I say that I'm jesting?), so you actually don't realize how far out on a limb you live.

For what it's worth, I think that those double-digit exit poll margins in PA, MN, and NH are pretty good evidence that the exit polls were wrong. And I think your silence on that point speaks volumes.

:hi:
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