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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 01:53 PM
Original message
Transparent Ballot Box, for 500 - 800 Paper Ballots, with Deposit Trap and Counter
Easy to use, sturdy and stackable. Lockable with two individual locks. Deposit trap is operated using a lever which is coupled with the counter. Can be safely stored in the reusable protective box.



http://www.kaiserkraft.co.uk/equipment/transparent_ball...

These would put an end to the insanity going on in this Country. :)
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. The FIRST !! K &R
I hope it is not the last.

This would have punched quite a hole in the CCs and BoEs argument, in Missouri, that new equipment would cost them $15,000,000 for new equipment! :wow:


:yourock:

PS. As soon as I get it spiffed up I will post the "Summons" to my upcoming "Legal Party" to held on 9-11, in Independence, MO.

Needless to say, all at DU are invited!


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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thanks galloglas, I guess Common Sense in counting ballots
scares people, they need corporations to count their ballots in secret, its to scary to stand up to a bully.

Thank you for standing up to the two crime families :patriot:
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-08 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. kick..nt
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. Made and used in a country where voters don't vote for individual candidates
If you are only counting one thing, it's a good way to go.

I'm going to be a pollworker tomorrow, and there are excellent odds that the OP is not, and has never been a pollworker.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Why are these people able to count complicated ballots by hand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQMGIjChINA

Do they have a special gift. :)
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Their "gift" is a trivially small number of ballots to count
Try it with 500,000 and get back to me. Oh, and there are 17 state legislative districts, three congressional districts and 37 cities in my county, including Seattle. And judges--state supreme court, county, superior court and ballot initiatives.

Then explain how much poll work you have actually done, what laws successfully lobbied for, and what reform legislators and secretaries of state you have helped elect.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The video shows complicated paper ballots being hand counted, NO?
Edited on Mon Aug-18-08 09:46 PM by kster
you say, "If you are only counting one thing, it's a good way to go". but this video clearly shows people counting more than one thing on each ballot.

Good luck with your work tomorrow.

:)
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. They are bloody well not in 3 congressional districts and 17 state legislative districts
The technical problems are chickenshit compared to what I will be dealing with tomorrow.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #6
46. I don't think the number of ballots is the prpblem.
There aren't 500,000 ballots in a single precinct, are there? So you can have more than 3 people to count them all.

What could be a problem is the number of contests on the ballot at a given precinct -- not the whole county. I don't see why that's necessarily more than in NH, but it's possible.

If we're serious about hand counting, we should stagger the elections so there are fewer contests held in a single election year. Odd years for local, even years for state and federal, etc.

It might also be necessary to appoint some officials rather than elect them to reduce the number of contests. That might not go over too well with the electorate, and it would require laws to be changed in some states.

So hand counting may not be for everyone, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Gotcher back here-- I'm a poll worker, too, and...
laugh at these clowns who think hand counting is easy and error free. They don't understand why we went to machines in the first place.

We've got about a thousand registered voters in each ED and I can't imagine how long it would take to count paper ballots if even just half showed up. President, Representative, and myriad state, county, and local offices with a bunch of bond issues and other proposals... Well, I don't have to tell you.

I spent a few years programming cash registers for a living and am well aware of just how easy it is to do it right, so I share the hatred of error-prone or fraudulent voting machines. But, since the entire world is based on electronic counting of cash, inventory, how many M&Ms go into a package... electronic voting is the way to go.

We just had another session on the Sequoia scanners we'll start using this year. Kind of a dry run this year, since they'll only be used for handicapped voting. Next year we have to get rid of the ancient lever machines and use the Sequoia things for real. I'm fairly confident in these machines-- they're built a little flimsily, but they seem to do the job needed.


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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I laugh at the clowns who defend any
type of electronic/mechanical counting machines. Once them machines with our ballots locked inside leave the neighborhood without our ballots being hand counted by the people in that neighborhood all bets are off of having a fair count (period)











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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Break out the vomit buckets, here we go again.

77 days out from The Big One with nearly half the states still on totally paperless DREs, and the broken record is still going around, and around, and around, and.......

:puke:

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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. yup, what you said n/t
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. I had no doubt that you would agree with that
even in a thread that a twelve year old could understand, count the ballots/money before they are allowed to leave the window/polling place, this is just plain old Common Sense and you Sir/Maddam have Failed, your credibility is in the

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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. at some point...
you might realize that demodonkey's reaction has nothing to do with being unable or unwilling to "understand" your argument.

If you reflected on the implications, you might even become considerably more effective as an activist.

I am not holding my breath.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. You spin it any way you want Sir/Madam but, as I said
even a twelve year old can understand.

Demodonkey said:

"Break out the vomit buckets, here we go again. 77 days out from The Big One with nearly half the states still on totally paperless Dre's, and the broken record is still going around, and around, and around"

and you try and convince me that Demodonkey is saying this, your words...

"you might realize that demodonkey's reaction has nothing to do with being unable or unwilling to "understand" your argument".

Unbelievable!! As I said your credibility is in the



Get rid of Diebold NOW!



(how to count ballots LOW TECH)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQMGIjChINA






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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. ?!
and you try and convince me that Demodonkey is saying this, your words...

"you might realize that demodonkey's reaction has nothing to do with being unable or unwilling to "understand" your argument".

I tried to convince you that demodonkey was saying that?

Saying what?

Whatever. I'll let you go back to talking to yourself.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. So, whose National Guard were you planning to use to make mail voters
--become polling place voters?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. as the world turns
around, and around, and around.

And all you can do is offer up a vomit bucket for the man who, if he was listened too, could solve our voting problems by getting rid of the DRE's.

We can hand count ballots if there is a will. But your will is to rely on private companies counting our votes? Well, thats where we are. And people fighting the only recourse we have- hcpb, makes me want to vomit.

Have a good day.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. A Picture a Video and a little Common Sense and we
Edited on Tue Aug-19-08 11:10 PM by kster
can give our Country Back to We the People.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQMGIjChINA

There are people that don't want this to happen, but it is what will happen, and I will pity the next salesperson that comes through town peddling an electronic vote counting machine.

Thanks BeFree


;)
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. There's a few broken records.
Perhaps I'm one. But your statement seems a bit off from EDS's survey. DREs are losing ground to nearly as insecure PBOS.

"Election Data Services, a consulting firm that specializes in elections, estimated that half the electorate used touch-screen voting in 2006. This year, less than a third will be using the touch screens."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

The paper ballots (often not secured, often not audited in a statistically significant manner) are optically scanned by the same kind of computers used to program and tally DREs.

So the elections are nationally insecure regardless of the problems in a few of the basket-case states.

And despite the jesters, I'll bet a few rural areas in PA could make great HCPB districts.

Just sayin'.

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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. DREs are NOT "losing ground" in Pennsylvania to ANYTHING.
Edited on Thu Aug-21-08 11:49 PM by demodonkey

No one is jesting here. This is deadly serious. If PA goes down with a bad election, everyone else loses just like FL 2000 and OH 2004. It only takes one "basket-case" state.

FYI, we HAD some rural precincts on HCPB in PA. Lost them all in 2006 under HAVA. The vendors came in here and pushed HARD to sell what makes them the most money, and that is DREs. Paperless DREs.

This did not happen for want of citizens to trying to stop it. We have been doing our best, but getting ANY kind of paper ballot (i.e. optical scan ) is an incredible struggle here with our recalcitrant General Assembly and a Governor who loves "the buttons" as he calls the Danaher machines used in Philadelphia.

So yes, about 7 million PA votes will be cast on paperless DREs this November in Pennsylvania the State of Denial.

After years of hard work we have managed to salvage a few PA counties by getting them onto optical scan, which as everyone knows at least leaves a voter-marked paper ballot TO count unlike paperless DRE which leaves NOTHING.

Now if you or anyone else thinks they can do better against the incredible funding and political powers we are up against, by all means be my guest. I can tell you up front that even to make a modest gain you'll need to do a hell of a lot more than just bellyache about HCPB on some bulletin board day in and day out. Feel free to come here for the next three or four years and work your heart out all over the state for no pay, eat McChickens off the McDonalds Dollar Menu half the time, and sleep in your car on those nights you can't afford a motel in various parts of the state as I and others have done in the name of election integrity.

Good Luck. We'll all be watching to see how YOU do.

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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. You're yelling. Calming down could help.
Edited on Fri Aug-22-08 11:22 AM by Wilms
DREs are on the way out. That's a fact including what you report happening in PA. I've said time and again that the paper based systems lacking meaningful audits are no less insecure. I realize that's tough for the "at least I voted on paper" crowd to accept, but it's fact. And some of us prefer dealing with facts.

HAVA doesn't ban HCPB or lever machines. Some people don't realize this. Your HCPB districts were not lost to HAVA in 2006 as you claim. They were lost to the misinterpretation of HAVA (and a dose of PA cut and drop law and Populex ballot markers not making it). Your lever machines were lost in a similar way. But when you got activists bent on a paper ballot and unable or unwilling to get good counsel on HAVA, that's what happens. See NY.

What I've said time and again, now paraphrasing you, is that FL2000 and OH2004 were "deadly serious" disasters that were both paper-based. Some of us prefer dealing with facts, despite the "trademark" mantras.

Three Holt bills have failed. You want a fourth one? Knock yourself out and then come back and tell us all about sleeping in the car so we can feel sorry for you. I don't mean any disrespect, but your haranguing over PA is only so different than the incessant bleating of the resident HCPBer.

The Fed ain't gonna fix PA. Many other states, with and without paper, are just as vulnerable.

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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Yep, what ever your flavor is
10 percent hand count audit or a Full Hand Count, it MUST be done at the close of election at the polling place before the ballots are allowed to leave the building.

Where the Audit hand count/full Hand Count is going to be done is most important.



:)
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UnitedVoters Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
57. Yelling? You want yelling? Read this.

Where the hell do you get off, putting words in demodonkey's mouth, lecturing her about HAVA or worse yet her own state's laws that you obviously know nothing about for godssake? Anyone can see that you have no fucking idea of the problems facing Pennsylvania.

You certainly DO disrespect demodonkey, who is one of the few people left on this board who has been out there actually walking the walk for election integrity the last four or more years. Demodonkey and people like her have been out in the world making sacrifices for election integrity while some people remain on DU, making noise.

Everyone FUCKING knows that you need to audit elections so you can shut off YOUR broken record about that anytime. We also all know that in order to have an audit you first need to have something TO audit. If you don't think a federal bill is going to pass (or don't want one) why don't you shut your damn piehole and help Pennsylvania and some of these other states that are still stuck with DREs ---- instead of disrespecting dedicated people who are doing their best to get rid of the DREs whereever and however they practically can?

I won't pump up your damn ego and give you credit for the loss the Holt bills because the FACT is that people inside the beltway just laugh at people like you and these HCPB whack-jobs. People who live in dreamland thinking we are going to get happy citizens to cheerfully and honestly count paper ballots for hours on end on election night, and who think we are going to get the happy state legislators to cheerfully pass laws allowing them to do it. Dream on, nutjobs. And then there is you, lecturing someone like demodonkey about HAVA and laws of her own state. MFG.

All the while in the meantime Feinstein is fixing to move HER bill, either in this Congress or if not then early on in the 111th.

I've lurked on this board for over 5 years now and it is pathetic how far things have fallen. This forum has gone down the drain and no longer is of much use to anyone because of people liike you and these HCPB nuts that drove most of the productive people away. And the loss of this board is a loss of something that helped organize in the aftermath of 2004 and COULD have helped organize and prepare for 2008.

Soif we get President McCain in another funky election this time. or trouble in 2010 or beyond, may you all enjoy the fruits of your labors. And may you also all rot in hell.


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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. oh, jeepers, could you dial this down?
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it's realistic or helpful to fault Wilms for the decline of the forum.
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UnitedVoters Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. No I could not dial this down. I'm sick of this.
Edited on Mon Aug-25-08 03:01 PM by UnitedVoters


I'm sick of good people getting jumped on while hand-counted paper whack-jobs get the run of this forum.

All Demodonkey did was rightfully point out that if Pennsylvania goes down it will be bad for everyone. Wilms didn't help the forum or the cause by lecturing her or minimizing the problems in Pennsylvania.

Wilms had no reason whatsoever to accuse demodonkey of yelling, or to lecture her or to mock the sacrifices she said she has made. As far as I have ever obeserved she is a sincere and hard worker who knows her stuff. She doesn't post that often and her posts are generally good contributions to the forum. She certainly didn't deserve to be accused of "haranguing over PA" and put in the same category as someone else who we all know really HAS destroyed the productive discussion here. And I notice that certain someone followed right in after Wilms on the subthread.

Demodonkey is certainly not the only one to be concerned that Pennsylvania could be the next OH or next FL. It's pretty common knowledge that all three of those big swing states have been in play regarding election integrity for some time, and I certainly think Pennsylvania has been way underplayed.

We COULD be strategizing on here as to what we as a movement could do about these big states with DRE problems, but nooooo, instead we criticize people who are doing their best to change things and then we discuss overpriced plastic ballot boxes that nobody is ever foreseeably gonna buy for a public election in the United States.












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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. hey, I was here too
I wish Wilms had left some of that on the cutting room floor. I wish you had done without the "rot in hell" stuff. And I wouldn't mind a few mulligans for myself while I'm wishing.

Meanwhile -- I don't think we're discussing overpriced plastic ballot boxes at all. kster is posting about them, and most other posters, including Wilms, are rolling their eyes.

I'm pretty sick of good people getting jumped on here, too. It's too bad we can't agree on a list of who they are. How do we get back to trying to strategize about what to do next?
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. Actually, where do you get off putting words in my mouth?
I'm well enough aware of the problems in PA, as I am aware of those in other states. I did not diminish the importance of PA. Contrary, I pointed out that other states, including ones with paper are no less vulnerable. If you disagree with that you can state your point of view on the matter.

Despite the foul language, it's not clear to me that everyone "knows that you need to audit". It's quite clear that the idea of a statistical, risk-based audit, is not well understood. And why would you accuse me of being a broken record relative to the need for proper audits if it's OK for posters to complain about DREs and Pennsylvania's plight? If you disagree with any of that you can state your point of view on the matter.

My ego doesn't need your pumping, especially because I had little to do with Holt's bills demise. It killed itself three times. We agree that the forum is not listened to by Congress. It's apparent that Congress didn't really listen to anyone in the movement. So what's your point apart from an attempted insult?

As a self-described lurker, you've had adequate opportunity to get a sense of my position on it, but from your assumption as to my inclinations toward HCPB, its apparent you've missed the mark. Of course relying on Kster responding to me on a thread to gauge where I'm at might not be the best analytical approach. A lot of folks are at each other's throats over Holt so you may as well come after mine. Personally, I found the supporters and detractors overstating reality. Perhaps there are those on either side angry with me for that. So be it. I'd rather be accused of something I actually said than what one imagines.

As far as my "lecturing" of Demodonkey, feel free to correct any and all mistakes that I may have made. In my replies to her I pointed out what I thought was inaccurate. So if I got it wrong, feel free to offer a correction. But try to cut out the name calling. And get off the idea I have no right to comment, as such a position asinine on it's face. And try not to assume that a McCain win in November is the fault of the members of this forum. That's as over the top as a number of your posts and a waste of member's time to read it.

If all Demodonkey did was point out that PA going down would be a bad thing, she's also wasting time. There are plenty of states and groups of states in that boat. You'll just have to pardon the wider scope of my concern. You may think PA is underplayed, but it may well be that the states reliability for Democratic presidential candidates during the last four cycles has had that effect.

Demodonkeys focus on PA, reliance on the possibility of the Fed saving it, and her tendency to personalize the struggle I happen to find a bit unnecessary. Too Much Personal Information. I think she can feel free to not let us know about personal finances, or her mother's and brother's health because it really has nothing to do with the topic. And after hearing TMPI time and again, and few inaccurate and overblown comments I feel as though it is being inappropriately used to sway people. She's not the only one who does that, but many others work very hard without pulling that kind of trip.

Now, we do agree that this forum has gone down quite a bit over the years. And I'm sorry that you view me as part of it's decline. Don't forget that a plethora of "lists" have been started, draining activity here. But I would hate to think that I stood in the way of productive discussion. I can imagine those promoting exit polls as a means for securing elections would agree with you, however. And a blathering HCPB fan might also. Not to mention those who come through here periodically with the latest unifying theory of election theft in OH. They come. They go. You know that as well as I. I was among those who preferred the idea of the "Voting Systems" forum. But as you'll recall there were a lot of emotions on display as people argued to name the forum about OH2004. It effectively became the exit poll forum for some time, and earned a reputation of tinfoilhattery as a result. It hasn't recovered.

No United, you're just plain angry with me. That was clear when you first started posting here in response to my criticism of the position Bo Lipari and some of the NYVV board members were pushing. And that's totally within your rights. But I think we'd both feel better if the distaste was based on facts.

So then, why don't you, point for point, argue with my positions instead of showing up only to tell me what a bad guy you think I am? As I recall, I and a few others tried having a substantive conversation with you and you decided to not respond.

You willing?

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UnitedVoters Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #62
69. You're damn straight. People like you make me angry as hell.
No I am NOT willing to waste my time arguing you "point for point" about the so-called facts as YOU see them.

It is obvious that you think you are contributing highly to election reform on here by starting threads with links to news articles that get a few K & R but rarely any real discussion. And for whatever reason you seem to have it in for people who are out there in their states actually trying to DO something like Bo Lipari and Demodonkey.

Sure lots of states with paper COULD be manipulated without having better audits yet, but WILL they be? My own state has had paper ballots and scanners forever, but we are not a swing state and won't be in play. I am much more worried about the big swing states, and of all of the swing states Pennsylvania is one where officials seem to be the most out of it as to how bad DRE machines really are. Look at this from BradBlog and Why Tuesday? . These officials are clueless and cocky to boot. At least the Holt bill(s) would have forced them to pay attention.

As far as Demodonkey focusing on Pennsylvania, why the hell shouldn't she? She is the founder and leader of an election reform organization there. As far as her posting personal information, I scrolled back through the threads and see that in June she posted a link to a speech on TV about her mother's healthcare and she said she got in about Pennsylvania needing paper ballots which I certainly thought was germane to this forum. I didn't where she said anything about her having a brother, what's up with that?

If you don't like Bo Lipari or Demodonkey or me for that matter, I strongly suggest that you use the IGNORE feature.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. So you are only willing to waste my time telling me what a bad guy you think I am. OK.
You yourself note this forum has declined, so your point about the amount of discussion following news stories I post isn't clear. Do you recommend I stop posting news stories? Or was that another effort to insult me? News stories here tend not to involve a lot otherwise while exit polls and spleen venting on Rove threads, neither of which are necessarily discussion, do seem to get more attention.

I do have a tendency to challenge specious arguments. That's not having it in for Lipari or Demodonkey. You've already professed a disinterest in discussion so I'm not really sure why you should be concerned comments made on a discussion board.

Sure lots of states without paper could be manipulated without having better audits, but what makes them so special? Florida has paper and even a so-called audit. You think they're ok? That doesn't take away from PA's plight, but I said that already. And what exactly can be done for those paper-less states in the 70 something days left before the election as Demodonkey seemed to suggest we concern ourselves? Get Congress to pass a bill?? Yell at some more people you think are to blame for Holt's bill not passing??? (You and whomever else should) Take that fist-fight back to where it came from, the VoteTrust list.

I realize it wasn't clear but, Demodonkey focusing on Pennsylvania per se is not what I was noting. It's the importance she seems to hold it in over other states, and paperless DREs over the other types of vulnerabilities affecting states, as she posts here. But really that's minor, her assumption that the ER movement could do much for a Holt bill being more my point.

I didn't imagine personal info being posted here. Let's not discuss it further as I said it's not particularly relevant.

You've made it clear you don't like me or my positions on unaudited paper ballots and people abusing the term "highest court in the land". You can make use of the ignore feature now available to you as a member. Else, on this discussion board, you may see things posted you don't like.

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UnitedVoters Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. The problem with you is...
... you post these news stories without any strategy as to what to do about them. Then you atteck Bo Lipari and Demodonkey who at least ARE trying to do something, and again you make no concrete suggestion or strategy as to what to do instead.

You say you like to "discuss" things but when you do discuss things you tend to nitpick and go round and round on the same ground, again without any real suggestion or strategy as to what to do. We all know certain HCPB people who use that exact same tactic to disrupt the forum with a defacto denial of service attack.

It's 70 days until the election as of today. At this point it's so late I think nothing can be done except to look ahead and figure out what we are going to do beyond it. What will we do if McCain is declared winner and the election looks funny again? What will we do if Obama wins and because of that the left wing drinks the kool-aid that everything is OK with the elections now? If we are going to have audits, first ALL states must have something that is auditABLE to count. What are we going to do to help states like Pennyslvania and others that still have millions of votes on paperless systems?

Who knows? Who cares??

I happen to think that in November it will come down to Florida, Ohio, and/or Pennsylvania and of those, Pennsylvania officials are the most out of it when it comes to election integrity because the other two states have at least admitted there is a problem. I think Demodonkey is absiolutely right to point out that her state is a hell of a lot more important and at-risk than most if not all other 49. Believe me, my state isn't going to matter regardless of whether we have good audits or not. Pennsylvania damn well might and for millions of votes they have nothing there to audit if they wanted to.

As far as personal information, weeks or months ago Demodonkey posted that she mentioned election integrity in a televised speech about her mother who has problems with healthcare, and that her mother has always been an inspirational advocate for voting and democracy. And your problem with that is...... what? Anyway on THIS thread, YOU were the one who brought up Demodonkey's mother and brother (I don't even recall her ever mentioning a brother) but NOW you say (quote) "it's not particularly relevant." WTF was THAT all about??

I'm going to work.

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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #71
74. So if I don't organize a strategy here on DU I can't comment and shouldn't post news stories?
In your many years of lurking here, and the hundreds of stories I posted, I was not aware that's "the problem".

And yes, I have the nerve to "nitpick" over fact, such as phrasing likely to mislead activists and voters. You call that denial of service, I call it denial of BS. Pardon.

At least you realize that the voting system is unlikely to change prior to the election. And I'm sure Demodonkey knows, as well, despite her post that prompted my response. I suppose that's why no strategy was offered there.

Your concern for PA over FL/OH is noted. I pick FL. They got paper you can't count. FWIW polling trends support my concern.

August 26, 2008

The Quinnipiac polling finds Sen. Obama with a 49% to 42% lead in Pennsylvania, unchanged from late July.

At the same time, Sen. McCain leads in Florida, 47% to 43%. And in Ohio, the two candidates are virtually even: Sen. Obama was favored by 44% of the voters surveyed, Sen. McCain by 43%.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/08/26/poll-obama-mcc...

----------

August 26, 2008

The poll, conducted Aug. 17-24, showed Republican John McCain leading Barack Obama 47 percent to 43 percent in Florida. A July 31 poll had Obama leading McCain 46 percent to 44 percent.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080827/ARTICLE/8...



Among points I've failed to convey is that I don't think personal info is any of my business.

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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #69
79. I had a brother, United. HE IS DEAD. Shame on Wilms for bringing this up in this thread.

My brother Paul was disabled by Autism/Aspergers and Diabetes. Voting meant a lot to him and he was a proud Democrat. He died in May 2007, on a day I was in D.C. working toward passage of H.R. 811.

Yes I have mentioned Paul on DU a few times, mostly on threads where others were talking about personal losses or feelings. I miss him terribly, every day.

How dare you Wilms -- HOW DARE YOU -- bring up my family in this thread and then suggest that I am "pulling that kind of trip" to sway people.

SHAME. ON. YOU.

You really do know nothing about Pennsylvania -- or me.

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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. What you are doing now is what you've done before. I think it's inappropriate.
Wag your finger with your single word sentences all you want. It's an opinion I'm entitled to.

Take your personal information, along with your "know nothing about" line cribbed from the Bo Lipari book of manipulation, back to the state you assume I know nothing about.

And take your Holt bills aren't going anywhere disappointment back to the VoteTrust list ruined as a result. This forum has it's own problems.

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UnitedVoters Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. I am so sorry for your loss, Demodonkey.
Edited on Mon Sep-01-08 01:59 PM by UnitedVoters


And thank you for all the excellent election integrity work you have done and continue to do in and for Pennsylvania.

:hug:

It is too bad that on top of everything a good person such as yourself would have to be tormented by some who have no problem imputing inappropriate (and incorrect) motivations to others while they believe their own opinion is superior to all.




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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. That seems a bit ad hominem.
I think my opinions are so superior that I have asked you to correct any mistake I may have made. The closest you've come is suggesting that PA is more at risk than FL.

You oughtta let Ellen Brodsky know.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


In our interactions, you've indicated you didn't like me finding understandable MN Audit Summit organizers refusing to let Dopp attend, and my posting stories about Lipari making a misleading statement or challenging his bashing of lever machines.

You don't like me repeating that without risk-based audits paper ballots as insecure as DRE voting, or me saying federal legislation probably won't save PA, and certainly won't do so prior to the '08.

And you're offended I labeled personalized exhorting of personal sacrifice as inappropriate argument when the movement is so split over the item to begin with.

You don't even like the way I post stories news stories threads. :cry:

I got it.


So I'll see you the next time you come by to complain about my posts. :hi:

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UnitedVoters Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #85
87. You, of course, NEVER post anything that is ad hominem... Riighht.
Edited on Tue Sep-02-08 09:23 AM by UnitedVoters

You are the one who posted accusing Bo Lipari of "deceit", now YOU brought up personal information not otherwise in evidence on this thread and then accuse Demodonkey of "exhorting" it and other things. Hey, why don't you pull in Tennessee too and take some swipes at Fly By Night as well? I'm surprised you haven't already gone after him too because he's another good worker who supported HR 811. It seems to me that you don't like ANYone who supported HR 811 and is doing good work for election ingegrity in their state.

And WTF is this, are you trying to form some sort of bizarre competition between Florida and Pennsylvania? And drag Ellen Brodsky into it somehow? Geesh, that's productive.

As far as that stupid MN Conference, Verified Voting and Common Cause will not be receiving any more financial donations from me to support their election reform programs because of it. My own state has paper ballots but needs audits, however as far as I could tell no one from my state was invited to their private little bash. I think a lot was mishandled there and I don't only mean Kathy Dopp. I will leave it at that and I request you to do so as well. It does not belong in this thread.

Yes I MAY complain about your posts in the future Wilms, when I want to waste a few more hours for nothing.

To everyone else reading this, please know that one thing I agree with Wilms on is that this board has its own unique set of problems. They come in the form of two or three posters who have ruined everything on here over the last couple of years. I won't name names but I think those of you reading this can figure out who you are. This is what finally got me to delurk but I can see trying to change things on here by "discussing" them with someone like Wilms is to no avail.

Maybe if we get President McCain and V.P. Mooselady in another stolen one people will wake up and this board will once again become productive. We can only hope but for right now I am not holding my breath.

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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #87
90. be the change you want to see...
As a case in point, if you want to question decisions that were made in planning "that stupid MN Conference," I bet you can think of more constructive ways to do it than to announce here that you're withdrawing financial support from two of the sponsors. (You say that subject doesn't belong in the thread, which seems reasonable, yet here it is.)

Have you, for instance, contacted the organizers to express your regret that activists from your state weren't invited to participate? Might that lead to useful conversations, maybe even collective action, instead of widening ripples of recrimination?

I'm sure you realize that if you try to work in coalition long enough, sooner or later everyone will anger or disappoint you. We can spend our time vying to be angrier or more disappointed, but, why?

If you want to talk about audits in South Dakota, let's talk. It isn't too late, and it obviously isn't too early.

Wilms knows well that I disagree with him about Bo Lipari, but this "quin es ms ad hominem" thang leads nowhere, and who has time for nowhere?
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UnitedVoters Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. OTOH...
I did NOT bring the MN Auditing Conference up in this thread, Wilms did. Just as he brought up a lot of other stuff that didn't belong in this thread, like Demodonkey's family.

"Stupid" is actually a mild word for what I thought of that conference in Minnesota. It was anything but transparent, revealed to many supporters of the sponsoring organizations, including me, only AFTER it was over.

Yes, once I learned of the Conference I DID voice my concerns to the sponsoring orgs by e-mail and received from one organization no answer at all and from another one I got what I considered to be an inane and patronizing answer. I will not go into this further right now except to say I have made the choice to vote with my pocketbook and send my financial support for election reform elsewhere in the future.

DU is not a coalition. This board was once sort of heading that way (or it helped in the development of other true coalitions) but disruptors took over and I find that a sad loss. Now the term Free-For-All is more like it.

At sixty-three days out from an election with SO much at stake as this one has, this is not the time to talk about audits ANYWHERE except in terms of post-election strategy which no one is discussing. Our focus should be on what if anything we can do to protect this election NOW, otherwise I guess a lot of us are going to work for our candidate and hope against hope that we don't see another 2000 or 2004.

This leading nowhere "thang" you describe is exactly the problem. There are a handful of people on here who make post after post after post of the same old same old that leads nowhere. They apparently have time to do this, and as such they have disrupted the once-productive nature of this forum. This constant going round and round that Wilms and a few others gets people into in the name of "discussion" is a waste of bandwidth. Between that and the constant blah-blah for hand-counted paper ballots all the time, there goes the forum.

Anyway I probably should have dropped out of this exchange at least three posts ago and I would like to rest it at this. I DON'T have time for this (why I rarely post, and only joined DU after lurking for many years) and I see it is going to do no good at this time and probably never.

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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. well, I'm sorry to hear that
I don't know much about the "organizations" -- I know real people. I don't really recognize the real people in what you've written about the organizations, but hey, stuff happens. At any rate, your words are yours, no matter who introduced the subject.

There are people I would have subtracted from the forum, and certainly there are people who would have subtracted me. (I can't say that I ever experienced this board as a "coalition," although coalition often happened here.) My point is: you can't grow anything if you don't plant anything, no matter what anyone says about the weeds. I fully admit that I don't do much planting here myself -- and I tend to limit my criticisms accordingly.

So, do you want to talk about audits in South Dakota? Let me know whenever.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #57
65. Its WHERE AND WHEN the audit is done that matters
"Everyone FUCKING knows that you need to audit elections"

if your idea of an audit is to take the ballots outside of the polling place to do the hand count audit of the ballots, you are not using your COMMON SENSE.

Hand Count Audit/Full Hand Count MUST be done at the close of election AT THE POLLING PLACE.

Use your COMMON SENSE!!
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I suppose you want to do away with...
ATMs, too, since we have tellers in the bank. And those tellers shouldn't look up your account on a computer-- they should go back to a perfectly accurate handwritten ledger in the back and look up your account before cashing your check or accepting your deposit.

And cash registers, since every store should have handwritten sales slips piled up to be added up and posted by hand after the store closes.

Here's an idea, just for shits and giggles-- go down to your County Board of Elections and make you case for hand counting. Let us know what they say.

Even better, see if they have any openings for poll workers and apply for the job. Then tell them how it should be done.

Let us know how you do.

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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. ATMs are fully secured by the customers and the bank
if the ATM gives me an extra $50.00, the bank gets pissed off, if the ATM shorts me $50.00, I get pissed off, the ATM's are constantly being monitored in this way not many errors go unnoticed. Please don't compare voting machines to the ATM's you make yourself look silly.

I really don't give a shit how the grocery store wants to count their receipts as long as they give me the correct change.

Inside the bank I withdraw $100.00 and the teller puts a stack of bills into the bill counter then the machine counts out $100.00. As sure as I'm sitting here the teller comes to my window and hand counts the bills in front of me, and for shits and grins I hand count the bills again in front of him/her.

Why doesn't the teller and I just accept the machine count? According to you we should.

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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I still haven't heard about your trip to the BoE and...
how they accomodated your demand for hand-counted paper ballots. Are they still laughing hysterically? Did they call security?

In fact, I haven't heard a thing from any of you paper ballot guys that properly argues against what people who actually work at the polls think about paper ballots. Nor have I heard a thing from you guys that argues against what real programmers and accountants who have dealt with audit trails think about hand counting anything.

Audit trails? Heard about them? If you spend some time learning about them, preferably in a real job that deals with them, you'll find out that audit trails are what you've been really looking for all this time. And they've been around at least since double-entry bookkeeping was invented. Unfortunately, while companies like Diebold are expert at it when dealing with cash, they kind of lost it in the vote machine end of things. Other companies now getting the business now know what they're doing, though.

Anyway, we were talking about all this while playing with the new Sequoia machines today. We didn't talk about it for long, but we did point out that every one of the objections from the activists is moot-- when you actually use the machine you realize all the the objections were made by people who had never seen the machines and have no idea how they work.

So, OK, go ahead and believe that people who actually work the polls and deal with all this sound silly when they say your objections are shitstirring bullshit.

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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Common Sense with no diversions......
Put the ballots in here



Hand Count em before they allowed to leave your polling place/neighborhood like this, Truth is simple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQMGIjChINA :)
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. If, however, you were in need of 100 $1 dollar bills,...
the teller would likely have a bundle already counted and banded by a machine. They would still prolly pop that pile into their own machine to double check. If you frequently perform such transactions you could verify with your own battery powered machine. Sure you could hand count every time, but with an adversarial mechanized process available why would you wanna?
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Why does the bank always want the teller to do a 100% hand count of
any and all money before it leaves the Tellers window?

Answer that question and it will tell you why the ballots must be hand counted before they leave the polling place.

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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Zing. n/t
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
30. There is no way, even in theory, that voting machines could ever be like ATMs
ATM software is open, but voting software is proprietary

Banks insist that all code in ATMs be fully disclosed to them and they won't trust their money or their depositors money with anything less. Voting software by comparison is considered proprietary. Companies that make both ATMs and voting machines proudly boast of their open source software for ATMs in their advertising. This situation could conceivably be changed by demanding that voting software also be fully disclosed, but there are other reasons why open source code is not by itself sufficient to make voting machines like ATMs. For example, it would be necessary to match the code on all voting machines to verify its identity with the true open source master code immediately prior to each election. But even then, any diskette or other similar device could introduce a virus or other malware that deletes itself. Furthermore, human beings can not observe the vote counting even in open source environments.

In addition, there is the problem that pen source code itself is not necessarily "knowable". One can think of the law as being open source "code", free of copyright and at least in theory available to all in free libraries. However, like the extensive areas of code in computer programs that often have unknown functions or utility, even a lawyer who spends his life studying the law doesn't understand how every bit of the "open source" law works, nor can we the people realistically understand even a fraction of exactly how the open source code for voting machines would work. Even with open source code, then, we would be required to accept election results on trust or faith, which is the opposite of checks and balances.

Were the code of the voting machine vendors suddenly opened up or disclosed, it would take a long time to understand it, we may in fact never understand it, and those who do understand will only be a handful of experts with a lot of time on their hands, probably paid by the government or a vendor and not loyal solely to the public.

Individual ATM transactions can be tracked, but individual secret ballots cannot be tracked

Every transaction in an ATM is completely tracked with redundant account numbers traceable to the account holder, and your transaction is photographed or videotaped for security purposes. In contrast, a secret ballot cannot possibly be associated with such an identifying number and still remain secret. The very secrecy of the ballot creates a virtually untraceable system that is wide open to both fraud and the cover-up of material irregularities. It is not feasible to provide a receipt in elections to prove a transaction because of concerns about using it to sell votes, though this concern might be addressed by making verification available only to the voter in secure locations like the elections offices.

To make ATM banking perfectly analogous to the process of voting, you'd have to have every account holder at a bank make a non-traceable (secret ballot) cash deposit on the same day (election day) by dropping this anonymous deposit (ballot) into a large bin (ballot box). Bank officers would then calculate the total amount of money deposited in secret with no public oversight, but not start counting until after the bank (polls) close. The account holders (the voting public) would then come back at the closing of the business day (election night) with the media in tow demanding instantly reliable bank balances and overall account results within minutes or hours of the closing of the bank (polls). Bankers (election officials) would insist along with some in the media that the convenience of speedy results was far more important than accuracy in one's bank account (election results).

The insane rush to count the bank deposits (ballots) within minutes or hours on election night would them be used as a primary argument for making the banking deposits invisible and unverifiable by converting them to electrons, so that they could be processed all the more quickly and conveniently. Hopefully it is obvious that in such elections we would be putting intense pressure on a very fragile and inherently unauditable system. In contrast, public and auditable systems can work only at deliberate, and visible, speed.

ATM errors typically have no consequences for users because they are correctable, but ballot tabulation errors have very serious consequences that are usually not correctable

With banks, you have at least 60 days after receiving your statement, if not much longer, to contest and challenge the transactions involving your account. With voting, there is no possibility at all of correcting your vote after you leave the polling place. In fact, voters are considered legally incompetent to contest their ballots with extrinsic evidence under stringent anti-challenge provisions. Election contest laws are subject to extremely short statutes of limitation such as ten days. At any rate, you couldn't locate your own specific ballot for purposes of challenging its tabulation, and some elections officials have preemptively cited academic research purporting to suggest that significant numbers of voters "don't accurately remember their own votes" after having voted, in order to cast doubt on members of the public who may wish to question the tabulation of their own votes. Thus, nothing is allowed to impeach or contest the rushed count, not even the voters themselves were they somehow able to show their own ballots counted incorrectly.

Broken touch screen voting machines have disenfranchised many, many people who have had to get back to work or school before a functioning one could be made available to them during limited voting hours. A broken ATM just means that you have to go to another bank branch or supermarket, at any hour of the day or night. In the case of voting, touch screen machines are expensive bottlenecks where you may be forced to stay in a long line at only one polling place. You usually cannot go elsewhere to cast your vote, though in some states a provisional ballot may be allowable.

In summary, you vote untraceably (assuming that you arent turned away unable to access a functioning machine, or by long lines), you're not allowed to challenge or change even your own vote, you're not trusted to remember it, and then the elections officials refuse to disclose their data (ballots) or their analysis methods (counting software) on the grounds of trade secrecy, only releasing their conclusions (election results).

Such a system has absolutely none of the safeguards built into ATMs, which have quadruple redundancy. If you take out $100, you can count the five crisp $20s, check the receipt, cross-reference it with your bank statement listing individual transactions tagged with unique numbers, and if necessary, request the photo of you making the transaction.

ATMs have extensive real world testing that vote counting systems can never have

Principles of elementary systems analysis dictate that any complex system, whether mechanical or electronic, is highly unlikely to ever be free of bugs. Such systems can, however, eventually be made robust and reliable by banging them against reality hard and often. ATMs are part of a complex system that has had most of the bugs worked out of it by being constantly tested in the real world, billions of times an hour, 24/7, 365 days a year. Even so, they still malfunction occasionally, though if you run into one that isnt working its usually only a minor hassle to find another one.

In contrast, voting is something we do a couple of times a year, and letting machines with complex hardware and software do it for us means that elections must inevitably always be a beta test. This is why you rarely hear of ATMs that dont work because of heat or cold or humidity, but commonly hear of voting machine breakdowns for those reasons and many others. If we only drove our cars for a couple of hours once a year, they'd suck pretty badly too. Beta test mode is absolutely unacceptable for something as important as voting.

Moreover, even if billions were spent on ATMs, there is no conceivable way that we would all be able to use an ATM in the same 14 hour time period, even under completely optimal and bug-free conditions. Forcing voters to use electronic voting machines means forcing them to stand in long lines instead of the five minute service guarantees we are used to in stores. The "promised land" of electronic voting promises only convenience for election officials, inherent invisibility of mistakes (which appeals to both vendors and election officials), and replicates the situation we now have with school systems whereby rich districts get great service and poor districts get poor service. The ultimate effect of electronic voting is therefore structural disenfracnhisement of the poor by the forced bottlenecks of expensive machines.

We can safely entrust others with tracking ATM transactions, but we can only trust ourselves to supervise vote tabulation

The current situation is this. We now have no basis for confidence in election results because the data and the method of its analysis are never disclosedonly conclusions (election results) are disclosed. Voters are considered legally incompetent to change or challenge their votes, or even to recall what those votes were. Voters are widely considered by elections officials to be the cause of machine malfunctions themselves, resulting in delayed responses to fix them. Furthermore, the poll workers are not supposed to observe the voters and therefore can't easily verify whether a given problem is a machine problem or a voter problem. (Would any self-respecting software engineers refuse to include an undo function in their word-processing program, and then blame users for not being smart enough to avoid mistakes 100% of the time? Most user error is really system design errorreal world testing should result in errors being hard to make and easy to recover from.)

We need to fight for democracy here in our time, meaning that the government must serve the public, which is the ultimate source of political power, and not the other way around. Public "servants" should not seek their own convenience and insulation from accountability for mistakes, but should instead be rewarded for falling on their swords and reporting problems voluntarily and immediately.

We the People must insist on vote counting methods that are transparent and public, that have robust checks and balances, and that keep fully in mind the very unique features of elections that make them not analogous to much of anything else. Thomas Jefferson anticipated every generation would need a revolution in democratic values to remember the inalienable rights of We the People and assert them against government officials who (quite naturally and even understandably) believe that their full time specialist status entitles them to special rights, because that is the route to something other than democracy, something other than We the People being in charge.

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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #14
47. Votes are NOT financial transactions. As a poll worker, you should know the difference. nt
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
28. Neighborhood people are no more trustworthy than downtowners or machines
That's why you need at least two different tabulation methods to serve as checks and balances against each other.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. Correct, the second count must be done AT THE POLLING PLACE
before the ballots leave the building. You already have the first count from the machine/ballot box which will be a check against the hand count.









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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. That would be optimum. However there is a slight problem.
How do you plan to force the large number of people who mail in ballots to go to polling places?
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #37
49. That's a different issue. Those votes are inherently insecure to begin with.
It's unfortunate that convenience voting has become so prevalent, and we should try to limit it. It's true that the election-night count folks are not paying enough attention to this, but there are states like New York, where there is still no convenience voting allowed.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. Security problems can be dealt with by better oversight.
I know that my ballot has been received (by mail or by polling place dropoff--it's posted online. After that point, should the central scanners not accept it, the ballot is duplicated by teams of duplicators watched by elections observers.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. Duplicators huh? No wonder folks want to vote absentee -- they get to vote twice! nt
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. No, the original is stamped ORIGINAL in red and it and the original and the stamped
---with incremental numerical stamps. The duplicate is then reprocessed. All of the information is recorded in bound paper lab notebooks. Numbers of ballots are reconciled daily, and election workers stay all night if necessary until that happens.

WA is a voter intent state, which extends the franchise as widely as possible. You don't get your ballot thrown out if you make an X instead of filling in the oval, if you use red ink, if your ballot gets stray ink marks in wrong places due to sitting on top of another ballot with messy ink, if the registry of the ballot is slightly off, if your vote for candidate A and also write in candidate A. You don't even get disenfranchised for being an asshole and doing editorial cartoons in the margins.

If you make a mistake and then pull the lever, by contrast, you are screwed.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #55
63. No that's not how levers work. You can change the vote as many times as you want.
None of this 3 strikes and you're out crap.

Most people who dis the levers don't know the first thing about 'em.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. I don't get you, you are defending a machine that is paperless
I know that you know better, but yet you continue to do it???????

UNFUCKING BELIEVABLE, YOU DISAPPOINT ME.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #63
67. How do you cancel your vote after you've pulled the lever? n/t
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
27. Electronic voting is bloody well NOT the way to go
Electronic counting of cash, ATMS, bank accounts, etc. are all fitted out with unique transaction numbers, which you absolutely cannot have with voting and still have a secret ballot.

Voting and tabulation must be kept entirely separate. The only way to do that is with voter verified paper ballots counted by optical scanning (unless you live in a lightly populated area where a handcount may be feasible), which is then audited by random handcounts. Places with handcounts should audit them by weighing, or use weighing as the primary method and audit with handcount.

Anyone who trusts hardware or software is a naive idiot, even it it works well most of the time. As an analytical chemist, I audit my chromatography software by submitting at least one hand calculation with every data set. Our scales are tested with standard weights daily, even though it's been about 15 years since a scale has flunked.

Any direct recording machine should be smashed. Not only are they hackable, but they are really expensive disenfranchisement machines. They conflate the fast act of tabulation with the slow act of voting, thus slowing the whole process to the speed of its slowest step. A single slow voter at lunch hour could disenfranchise dozens who have to get back to work. (That's not to say that touchscreens shouldn't be used as interfaces, just that they should never record votes, but print out a scannable ballot to be tabulated with all the rest.)
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #27
39. Not so fast.
Edited on Sat Aug-23-08 10:45 AM by yowzayowzayowza
Electronic counting of cash, ATMS, bank accounts, etc. are all fitted out with unique transaction numbers.... Stand alone bill counters do not require transaction numbers. Bill counters contained in ATMs and teller equipment may have transaction numbers associated with the process they're implemented in, but the bill counter itself has no requirement of transaction numbers what-so-ever.

Voting and tabulation must be kept entirely separate. A-freaken-men.

Anyone who trusts hardware or software is a naive idiot, even it it works well most of the time. Blindly, yes, but the same can be said of your scales and humans counting ballots. As you suggest for a reasonable OpScan implementation, trust in each of those processes can result from a combination of transparency, testing and redundancy. The process as a whole engenders the trust, not *any* individual device or human.

Any direct recording machine should be smashed. Another a-freaken-men. :hi:
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. A bill is either there or it isn't there
We want to know more about paper ballots than whether or not they exist.

I agree that redundancy and auditing can make optical scanning reliable. You have to look at the checks and balances in the entire process to get results that you can have confidence in. Handcounting needs checks and balances as well.

As David Dill said. "It is not enough that elections be accurate; we have to know that they are accurate and we don't."
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Agree, but...
bill counters do lotz more than jus count bits of paper.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Good thing that the folks who print bills are way better at their jobs than
--the folks who print ballots, no? In last year's election (thankfully an odd-numbered year) printing registry problems doubled the number of ballots that needed to be duplicated in my county.
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emlev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
72. exactly the problem: "they seem to do the job needed."
Sequoia machines and all the others are very good at "seeming" to do the job needed. In fact, they can flip entire elections without leaving a trace.

Not all is what it seems.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
31. What would help put an end to insanity is for everyone who bloviated
--about election integrity to actually do the work of a pollworker.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. You don't have to be a pollworker to know that
the ballots must not leave the polling place until they are hand counted by the people.

What ever your flavor, 10 percent hand count audit or a Full Hand Count it MUST be done at the close of election at the polling place before the ballots are allowed to leave the building.

Thats how it HAS to be done until we get rid of these million dollar ballot smuggling machines.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. As long as there are large numbers of people who mail in their ballots--
--it can't possibly be done that way. And you do need to be a poll worker to have a clue about how tabulation can be organized.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. It Must be done that way "can't" is not an option
the crooks are laughing their asses off. I mean come on once the ballots get smuggled out of the polling place, do you really believe that a serious hand count audit/full hand count of the ballots will ever be done.


Think Think Think

This is why the hand count audit/full hand count MUST be done AT THE POLLING PLACE, this is not an option.



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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. So, do you actually have any real achievements as an election integrity activist?
I'm working for a SecState candidate who successfully stopped the implementation of a new Diebold system this year in King County. And you? "Can't" is not only an option, it is our current condition. If you don't like that, do some work on the ground to change it.

What "must" be done according to you has no more significance than a two year old who "must" have what s/he sees on the teevee set.

Your chances of forcing committed vote by mail voters to the polls are nil. You just ignored the question.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. OK, LET ME DUMB THIS DOWN FOR YOU, a six or seven year old
Edited on Sun Aug-24-08 01:10 AM by kster
is sitting down at a table with his piggy bank that is filled with money.

NOW try and convince him/her that in order to count the money in that piggy bank that you have to take his/her piggy bank out of his/her sight in order to count the money.

At six or seven it is very unlikely that they will let you take their piggy bank out of their sight.

Now, try and sell the same story to an eight or nine year old, their thinking, you ain't taking my shit out of this building, at ten or eleven they might call the cops if you try and give them that story.

The ballots MUST never leave the polling place for the same reasons.

I mean, even if you tell the kids that you are a piggy bank pollworker they aren't going to let you leave the building.

Why? Common Sense.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. Now, suipposing the mail-in ballots were never in a polling place to begin with? n/t
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. We are discussing when and where ballots must be counted,
putting your ballot into a mail box instead of a ballot box is equivalent to throwing a Hail Mary pass, as to whether it gets counted or not.

As I said if the ballots leave the polling place before the hand count audit/full hand count is done , THE CROOKS WIN, you know it and I know it(period)

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. You and what army will force absentee voters to become poll voters? n/t
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #52
56. Did you read my post? nt
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. Yes. Answer the question. n/t
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. Put your ballot in
here



Don't let the ballots leave the polling place until they are hand counted like this ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQMGIjChINA

This is not as ballot box, unless you absolutely have to use it as one





THEN TAKE BACK YOUR COUNTRY!
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-08 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #64
68. People prefer mail in voting by 70% in my state
What is your plan for forcing them to change?
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #68
73. Tell them the truth, and you won't have to force anyone
once you put the ballot in the mail box there is no way to secure that the ballot gets counted. Early voting, vote by mail should only be done if a person absolutely has to do it.

My answer tell them the truth.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. And they'll tell you to go straight to hell
A more realistic option is to prevent forced closure of polls. Poll voters want that option, just as absentee voters want theirs.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-08 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. They would tell me to go to hell for telling them the truth??
I really don't know where you are going with this, but please continue.


:hi:
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-08 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. Telling them the truth accomplishes nothing in the real world
Blather all you want, but they aren't going to give up absentee balloting.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-29-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. OK, I'll let THE MAN explain it to you


All we need is a common agreement that what is at stake here is not who wins and who loses in a contest for the presidency, but how we honor our Constitution and make sure that our democracy works as our founders intended it to work.

This is a time to respect every voter and every vote. This is a time to honor the true will of the people. So our goal must be what is right for America. There is a simple reason that Florida law and the law in many other states calls for a careful check by real people of the machine results in elections like this one. The reason? Machines can sometimes misread or fail to detect the way ballots are cast, and when there are serious doubts, checking the machine count with a careful hand count is accepted far and wide as the best way to know the true intentions of the voters.


http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/election/july-dec00/gore...

YOUR TURN!!!
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. You didn't read your own reference apparently
checking the machine count with a careful hand count is accepted far and wide as the best way to know the true intentions of the voters.

Calling for random audit by hand counts is exactly what I've been advocating.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-08 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. Fabulous, where will your hand count audit be done?
If the ballots get smuggled out of the neighborhood/polling place before the ballots are hand counted/audited the hand count audit will be a joke.

Its all about WHERE AND WHEN THE HAND COUNT AUDIT/FULL HAND COUNT OF THE BALLOTS TAKES PLACE.


Argue Audits/Hand Counted Paper Ballots all you want but what we should be waking up about is, WHERE AND WHEN the ballots will be audited/hand counted.




:hi:
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-08 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. As a pollworker, I approve the following process
Record number of ballots issued to the polling place

Zero the scanner, and have 3 workers sign off that the ballot collection bins are empty.

Record any spoiled ballots.

Have voters sign the poll book and also the precinct tally sheet that is publicly posted.

Check tally of AccuVotes cast and verify that the number of ballots issued + spoiled ballots = Accuvote tally

Count the unused ballots and tear them

Pack all ballots (voted, spoiled, provisional, unused/torn, absentee ballots dropped off) into separate witnessed and sealed bags.

Notify central counting and storage location of the total numbers, to be checked when the ballots arrive.

Now for the auditing, you have to sort the absentee ballots from the precincts designated by statisticians for random auditing and combine them with the polling place ballots. All central location operations are observed by certified members of at least two political parties.

Absentee ballots have signature matching done, and if there are match failures, the ballots are held while voters are notified once in writing and twice by phone.

Provisional ballots are checked to see if the voters are on the rolls, and if not are held as challenged. If they are on the rolls, then the ballots are temporarily held until two days before certification to make sure that absentee ballots in the same names are not returned.

Ballots not scanned by the machines for any reason are duplicated by teams of two election workers, watched by elections observers.

Daily reconciliations of ballot totals are run and signed off on by elections observers.

Precincts and races selected for auditing have combined ballot totals checked off against number of registered voters. Hand counting is done by elections workers watched by elections observers. Tallies reconciled with poll scan plus central scan counts.

Except that we don't have mandatory auditing like Minnesota does, that's how WA state does it. Both rated by Common Cause as being among the lowest risk states for hankypanky.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. OR WE CAN USE OUR COMMON SENSE
AND HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS BEFORE THEY LEAVE THE GODDAMN POLLING PLACE Just like this.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQMGIjChINA

:hi:
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UnitedVoters Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #86
88. Dupe.
Edited on Tue Sep-02-08 09:30 AM by UnitedVoters
However, this post is about as productive as the one it is replying to.
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UnitedVoters Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #86
89. HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS
HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS .......

This post is about as productive as the one it is replying to.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #89
91. very true n/t
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #89
94. Common Sense, HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS, BEFORE THE BALLOTS LEAVE THE POLLING PLACE!!
HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNT THE GODDAMN PAPER BALLOTS


BEFORE THE BALLOTS ARE ALLOWED TO LEAVE THE POLLING PLACE!!!

Welcome to the DU.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
40. GREAT. I always wanted to see how others vote!
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-08 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
95. kick...nt
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. KICK TO ADD PHOTO
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JimDandy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 05:10 AM
Response to Original message
97. "This product is no longer available" n/t
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. Thats alright I'd rather have it made in the USA anyway
There are hundreds if not thousands of companies right here in the great USA, that could make these.



:)
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