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If Nader Saves Democracy, All Is Forgiven

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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:34 PM
Original message
If Nader Saves Democracy, All Is Forgiven

Right?

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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. In my eyes, yes. n/t
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. Nope.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yes, I'd forgive Ralph if he actually manages to follow through right
now and be as aggressive in demanding re-counts and investigation into voting machine fraud as he was in running for President in 2004....

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Kralizec Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. The Dems are in no position to forgive...
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 01:38 PM by Kralizec
I would hope that he would accept the apologies of the Democrats who pounded him so much prior to the election. While I am a Dean fan, I didn't like him pushing Nader around. Knowing those voters who usually vote for Nader, I knew that it was highly unlikely that these voters would not vote for Kerry, becuase undoubtedly they knew what was on the line.

I hope he accepts the Dems apologies, not that they will give it.
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Skink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. Really
What, you mean he has uncovered machine tampering in N.H. and it turns out Dean actually beat Kerry handily in the primary. Right on!! :smoke:
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rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. During the primaries I asked the same thing, how do we know
the primaries were not rigged?
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hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
37. We never will know
... but in light of these 'results'; and Kerry's quick and graceful concession, I'd say the primary results are rather suspect, given the Mo that the Dean team had at the time.

Call me :tinfoilhat: but I'm thinkin' the Kerry nomination was an inside setup.

:hippie:
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JPace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
6. Saving Democracy would attone for a lot of sin.....
lets wait and see.
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Mend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. Democracy wouldn't have been lost in 2000 but for him n/t
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Kralizec Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I disagree....
It may have delayed it, but these guys have been planning to take over our government for over two decades... four more years would not have been hard for them to wait. Of course, they wouldn't want to wait...
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. that's the standard knee-jerk answer here
based on the total myth that gore, who actually won the election WITH nader in the race, would have been allowed to win without nader in the race. :crazy: one would think this election's results would finally stop some of those knees from jerking.
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
8. On balance, Nader's legacy in protecting the rights
of consumers and voters would be immeasurably enhanced. His purpose for a candidacy seemed tied to personal interest which detracted from all of his previous good works on behalf of the public. If on behalf of the public he is able to bring about significant national scrutiny of the Voting Sysytem and reform the system then he will have redeemed himself in a very large measure for me. That is a huge if!
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. That's right - He'd have to actually achieve voting reform
And he'd have to catch BushCO in the act. If he did that, I think I could forgive him.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
10. Yes I'd forgive him
But the other problem is still lurking around the whitehouse and until he's gone i'm willing to be mad at anyone who helped keep him there. Give me time, I'm sure I'll get over it...
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Hobbes199 Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
11. Yes.
I'm already committed to voting for him next time — I didn't vote for him the last two times, and I do think he spoiled 2000, but I also understand what he was trying to do, and I appreciate the fight he's putting in for us. Anyone that's going to be that upstanding, deserves my vote.
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BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. The Democratic Party Should Then...
...ask Nader for forgiveness for what they'd done to him.
I'm a liberal democrat, and was on the fence for voting for Kerry--up until he chose Edwards as his running mate, that is.
Had Kerry not, I would've, for the first time, voted straight Green; for David Cobbs.
At least then, with Republicans attacking seemingly passive Democrats, my vote for the Green Party will count.
If the Democratic Party, and John Kerry, and John Edwards don't blow this rigged election to smithereens before December 13th, my two sons and I are voting Green in every election (except for Barbara Boxer, whom I admire) from that day forward--and never, ever vote for ANY Republican EVER again.
That's my pledge.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. ditto
i feel exactly the same way. i felt the same way after the 2000 election, but TWO stolen elections?!? no way i'll give my vote to such and ineffective 'opposition' again.
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BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Actually, counting this one, it's been...
...three stolen elections, maybe even four, if you count the California Recall wherein those terrible machines were used for the first time, giving votes to unknown candidates, with 200,000 ballots just thrown out in the Los Angeles County area (a Democratic stronghold) alone!
The 2002 Florida election was rigged, according to Jeff Fisher, a Dem. Rep from Florida who's just lost his race, and who is now working with the FBI, and who, he says, has found a credible witness to the GOP's rigging of the Florida gubernatorial race in 2002.
His story can be found at
http://www.thomhartmann.com
What ikes me is, that the Democratic Party isn't doing anything about it! That the DNC refused to back Al Gore for '04, but backed Lieberman! I don't get it!
Al Gore had the name, and fame, and the still lingering anger by liberals, democrats, and progressives alike to have run a cheaper, more effective campaign since everyone outside the self-deluding GOP fanclub knows he'd won!
With mistakes like these, how can the Democratic Party continue to rely on their base, and the majority of their constituency?
More importantly...do they deserve our trust after losing again, and again?
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. to answer your last 2 questions: NO and NO
and you are right...with the governator debacle here in CA, and the 2002 mid-terms...it's more than 2 stolen elections.
i heard that jeb rigged the FL primary because he knew reno would kick his ass, and he was right: mcbride was a much better challenger for him.

i still think it was a huge mistake to kick gore to the curb...almost like they really didn't want to win :think:
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BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. According to Jeff Fisher...
...the 2002 gubernatorial race in Florida, and the California recall were "test-runs" to perfect the hijacking of America's votes.
Jeff Fisher, who had lost a race in Florida this last election, has hard, documented evidence from a former GOP computer programmer/turned informant who is literally afraid for his life, and is currently working with Al Sharpton, and the FBI; MoveOn.org and others to blow this treason against Americans, and America WIDE open.
Here a link to his website for the full story...also, don't forget to sign the petition to a national reVOTE! We need 25,000 signatures! Both my sons, and I have already signed!

Jeff Fisher website:
http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com

I will be posting this link in as many threads as I can, since I cannot yet make a posting. If you can, please do so. We need a national revote, and we need to get this petition signed yesterday!
:freak:
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. thanks...i signed already
and i am familiar with the fisher story :kick: for your efforts.
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. Lieberman is a DINO
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Mend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Then the forces of evil have won
If they can break us up into tiny, helpless little groups, then they always win. We were so close in 2000 and so close this time. It just takes every single one of us to vote, including Nader, as one unit against the republicans. I am sure there are many republicans who held their noses but voted their party with discipline we just don't have. Nader could have helped but chose to make a statement instead.
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BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Mend...I don't see it that way....
...merely because there are alternatives.
Even with Naderites voting Nader, their numbers together with Kerry/Edwards combined didn't come near Bush/Cheney's bloated numbers--and therein lies the crux of it all.
As long as Democrats--who are pretty powerful IF they choose to be--keep catering Republican-lite in government, and coo "moving more to the center of right", we will never win again, because Republicans don't adhere to the same principles as Democrats have, and Republican voters just don't have a taste for Diet-Republican. They cheat, and steal American votes without so much as a wince of guilt. And that's a fact.
As I've explained in the post you've responded to, if the Democratic Party continues to let the Republicans get their rigged machines into the polling places without so much as a single peep, they have already made us lose before a single ballot is cast.
On the other hand, should the Black and Latino Caucusses, together with liberals, progressives, and left of center Democrats join together and fight the way the Democrats used to do, maybe, just maybe, we can get some real hardhitters into Congress and chase the Repub bugs out of it.
But as I've said before...I'm giving my party one last chance: to prove themselves and to prove to those who fought so hard to GOTV and who had even changed their party to help defeat Bush, to ensure this time, with the Democrats money and their clout, that every vote cast will be counted, no matter the outcome.
If they fail, I'm done with them. So far, I've seen little encouragement through McAuliff's memos, that they're even trying.
And that hurts me deep, but it ain't December 13th yet, right? :)
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AJH032 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
14. Only if
his efforts contribute to Kerry's inauguration in January of 2005.
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RUAWHACKO Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I'd forgive
almost anyone who could bust up this Mangled Monopoly.
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restorefreedom Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
19. I'm not sure I'd say "all" myself..
but if his recounts uncover a fraudulent election, I'd forgive a helluva lot.

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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
21. i will never forgive
George W. Bush
Dick Cheney
Katherine Harris
Jeb Bush
State of Florida Legislature
and most of all:
SCOTUS

i have no need to forgive nader because he didn't do anything illegal or immoral...like the folks on my short list.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Ditto for me
Like my avatar pic? *g*
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restorefreedom Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. good point. And don't forget..
"Katherine" Blackwell, Ohio's point man for Bush, who conveniently enough, just HAPPENS to be Sec of State.

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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. i am working on a new list for 2004
:thumbsup: and she will be on it. it's too early to finalize it just yet, but thanks for the heads up!
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The Flaming Red Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
22. It'll be like the second generation of airbags n/t
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GettysbergII Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
27. Youbetcha! (nm)
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
30. Sure, but chances of that are 1 in a million...
Basically it ain't gonna happen. However, if Ralph were to magically clean up his own mess (removing the asshole that he helped get elected), then I would forgive him.
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brettdale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
31. WHEN DOES THE RECOUNT IN NH BEGIN ????
Now that Nader has gotton a recount in NH, when do they start recounting????? A week from now?, A month from now??? A day from now????? I cant find an answer anywhere!
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Press Release from Nader:
http://www.votenader.org /

Nader For President 2004
P.O. Box 18002 - Washington, DC 20036 - www.votenader.org
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
November 12, 2004 For Further Information:
Kevin Zeese 202.265.4000
Nader-Camejo Goes Forward with Hand Recount in New Hampshire

Washington, DC: The Nader-Camejo is going forward with a hand recount in New Hampshire. The recount will begin in areas where the vote favored President Bush in anomalous ways.

Nader-Camejo has requested a hand recount of the vote in New Hampshire because of reports of votes favoring President Bush in towns that used the Diebold AccuVote optical scan machines. The Nader-Camejo campaign received more than 2,000 faxes from citizens concerned about the vote count who urged the campaign to request a hand recount in New Hampshire. (Review the request for a hand recount in New Hampshire.)

A hand recount will either rule out the possibility of machine error or show a discrepancy in the Diebold machine and the actual vote either way voters need to know, said Nader. Regardless of whether it changes the electoral outcome, the Democrats should join us in this effort and follow through on their repeated promises to make sure every vote is counted in Ohio and other states.

Voting-rights groups and others have identified trouble spots and irregularities in several states meriting further investigation. The Nader-Camejo campaign is working with voting rights activists on these concerns.

Turning over the counting of votes to corporations gives new meaning to the term corporate power, said Nader. Three or four proprietary corporations being given the authority to count the vote on trade secreted software undermines the transparency of elections. With other obstructions and massive corporate campaign cash, they threaten the very foundation of our democracy its elections.

The Nader-Camejo campaign does not view the election to be over merely because concession speeches, which have no legal effect, have been delivered. Rather they are over when every vote is counted and legally certified.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Go Nader
Wouldn't it be funny if what Nader finds leads to fraud on the part of Repubs? They funded him and now he bites them back.
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libertypirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
34. If Nader saves demorcacy
Give the boy a face on rushmore...
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Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
39. Well the Democratic Party sure ain't saving democracy
They sold us down the river on this one.

They obviously cut some kind of deal to backoff and let Bushco steal this one.

There can be no other explanation for their behavior
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