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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:32 AM
Original message
Jeff Fisher - sounding real and real scary... Reader Beware
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 01:58 AM by jsamuel
I suggest not sending this to the media yet. It is still very sketchy.

http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com/Campaign2006/index...
Thanks to Activism over at commongroundcommonsense.org:



From Jeff Fisher personally sent tonight...



"Please tell everyone that Jeff Fisher will not give up. I am posting a
letter that I sent to Ralph Nader today on my website. The letter is only
changed to protect the sender( who is afraid of being put in harms way) (the
FBI, Ralph Nader, Al Sharpton and Russ Baker of The Nation know the senders
name.) Its time that John Kerry and the DNC realize that this election was
stolen and Americans were virtually raped of their voting rights. The
website is http://www.JeffFisherforCongress.com "




TRANSCRIPT OF THE LETTER


"Re: xxxxxx (the Sender) see rense.com article
Cover-Up of 2000 and 2004 Florida Vote Continues
(Press release VoteFraud.org, and Blackboxvoting.org) 11-1-04
For more statistical info, visit http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com and click on the link labeled Surprising Florida Presidential Election Results. The data reveals that the election results are inverted/cross-party voting.

On July 27, 2004 xxxxxx showed me an email dating from 1999 which stated that a successful run of posting felons names to electronic voting went without any problem and leaving no audit trail. Mr. xxxxx also showed me information that it was done during the 2002 Florida Gubernatorial Democratic Primary as well. (Visit http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com and click on link labeled Thank you Michael Moore from Jeff Fisher and Thom Hartmann). He then told me that due to this success and the improvement of programming that it would probably be used in the General Election on November 2, 2004. This was relayed to me on July 27, 2004 in the mid afternoon in a parking lot leading from a McDonalds to the local county library in the Kendall area of Dade County. He also mentioned to me that he was living in fear. He believed his family might be killed if they found out that he gave this information to anyone. I tried to get this information to John Kerry on many occasions through Charles Figley. All attempts were fruitless.

Additional information:
Regarding conversation with xxxxxxx

xxxx also told me that day (July 27, 2004) that hardware and software for voting systems such as Sequoia, ES&S and Diebold could be compromised via computer coding (source) that was perfected at Bay Point School(s) and other locations throughout the United States over the past few years. This was learned by the interception of inter office emails that were located within the computer network and hard drives. Mr. xxxxxx informed me that he was hired to secure their Internet and Intranet system. During this time of securing the system he became aware of pertinent information that was not erased from the system regarding the production and development of computerized manipulation procedures to use on a national level for the 2000 general election. He told me and showed me that the 1999 email verified that a test run was conducted for Florida only, and was a great success due to hiding any visible audit trail verifying the posting of votes from the felons list. He also told me that the purpose for the casting of votes by felons without leaving an audit trail was the easiest method because they knew that no one would be looking at the list with interest as a possible form of voter fraud. The perpetrators knew that it was going to disenfranchise thousands of voters throughout the state of Florida. When I asked him how that would be accomplished he said that would be done by computer source coding that would appear random to the average person yet it was to create under and over voting and create a bias toward a specific candidate. I was unable to attain these documents because, as xxxx explained, someone had been killed and he felt it could happen to him also or to his family. xxxxxx told me that he informed Dr. Piotr Blass of these facts and that they had yet to find someone whom they could trust with this information. He also said that he would, over time, show me more if I could prove myself to be reliable, loyal and trustworthy to Dr. Blass.

Later on during our conversation xxxxx showed me another email memo dated after the 2002 Florida Democratic Primary (Mid to late September) stating that the felons procedure was a success in the election of Bill McBride over Janet Reno and Darryl Jones. xxxxx also told me that he had recently read an email that he could not show me for security reasons and the threat of possibly being killed. According to xxxxx, this email would reveal new electronic procedures that were being perfected in other facilities out of state and would possibly be implemented in the General Election this fall. I asked xxxx what it was and how it could be done. He said that it was an intricate network that has been developed since the mid 1990s and it would take place in several states to divert attention from a centralized location.

In August, Dr. Blass informed me that he knew that xxxxx had knowledge of how the coding was being distributed throughout the United States due to xxxx being the MIS Director at Baypoint School. He told me that xxxx had revealed this information to him in bits and pieces in the early part of 2004 (Jan-March) via personal contacts at Baypoint. Dr. Blass also told me he was friends with Joe Klock even though he was made aware that Mr. Klock was allegedly having sexual relations with some of the male students.

During the month of October Dr. Blass was asking via email and on radio for financial support to free his son from Growing Together (see Rense article). His efforts were fruitless until approximately ten days before the General Election. Dr. Blass even had me advertise on my own website that if they contributed to my campaign I would donate 10% to the David Lopez Blass Defense Fund. Dr. Blass had my communications manager, Al Rogers, living in his home for several days promoting a petition to free his son, which would be given to Governor Jeb Bush. On Monday October 25, 2004, Dr. Blass informed me that he no longer needed Als services or mine, for that matter, because he had Joe Klock assisting him in the release of his son, and that he had received the needed funds. When I asked him from whom he received the funds he first stated to me that it was none of my business. Then, a few minutes later he told me his brother provided the funds, but to not tell anyone.

In late October, Dr. Blass informed me, while at Key College (Dania Beach, Florida), that he had spoken with xxxx again and that more information had been obtained as to how Bay Point School was getting additional funding for computer training and equipment in 2001 and 2003. Dr. Blass thought that it was interesting as that Ambassador Sembler was a key factor in funneling funds to Bay Point School via Joseph Klock as well as to Connie Mack and Michael Bilarakis. I asked him how he knew this and he told me that xxxx had told him in April or May of 2004.

Russell Baker (Nation Magazine) has interviewed Mr. xxxx on Nov. 12, 2004 and had Mr. xxxx verbally confirm that there is documentation regarding election fraud. Mr. Baker can be contacted at 917-907-2433."




Jeff Fisher has been in contact with officials, law enforcement, BBV and numerous investigators.....The evidence he has officiallized shows Peter Blass knew about the underground hacking schools, and out of loyalty to Rove and Klock would not come forward with it......Due to losing his senate seat and carreer Blass is coming out of the shadows...
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lavenderdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. I don't want to sound stupid, and I guess I will but....
are they saying they used the felon's list that was talked about so much (the ones that were taken off the voters rolls) to somehow manipulate the electronic voting? This is really frightening. I wonder who was already killed in regards to this information? I wonder if he/she was also trying to let others know...
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Fascinating concept...
Take the felons OFF the voting list so they can be used to create dummy votes.

Those tens of thousands could have been enough votes to tip it in 2000.

Wouldn't that still be easy to trace? We know the names of the felons and have a list of those who voted...
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Jasper 91 Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
103. Plane crash claims another 'victim'
Diebold's COO dies in plane crash

NORTH CANTON, Ohio -- Wesley Vance, Diebold's chief operating officer, died over the weekend when the private plane he was piloting crashed southeast of Columbus, Ohio.

Vance, 45, is survived by his wife Melinda and five children, according to a news release.

"We are deeply saddened by this sudden, tragic event. My heartfelt sympathy and prayers, as well as the condolences of the entire Diebold family, go out to Wes' family," said Walden O'Dell, Diebold's chairman, president and chief executive, in the release.

Since joining Diebold less than three years ago, Vance has spearheaded extensive cultural and operational changes throughout Diebold, O'Dell said.

Vance joined Diebold in October 2000 as president of Diebold's North America business unit and was named chief operating officer in 2001. He managed the company's global operations, including research, development, manufacturing, purchasing, human resources, sales and service.

O'Dell is assuming the company's day-to-day, operational responsibilities until a successor is named.

http://www.atmmarketplace.com/marketplace_storefronts_c...

I'd be worried too if I was the 'whistle-blower'.

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restorefreedom Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #103
125. "sudden"??? yeah right.
Man, this is creeping me right out.

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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #103
143. Um, there's no date on that article
I googled his obituary - he died in April 2003.
http://www.crainscleveland.com/news.cms?newsId=978
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. WTF? This sounds like a bad dream.
It sounds incredible.

Quite frankly, this sounds loony (not saying that it actually is). Fisher better have solid proof and then some for this story to fly.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. Scary... I know.... This seems too strange to be true....
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 01:43 AM by jsamuel
That's why I think we should wait before "mediaing" this...

Isn't this strange... scary too...
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Who are the students at these underground hacker schools?
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YellowDoginthehouse Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
77. Juvenile Detention Facilities
These kids won't serve serious time if caught because they're juvies.

One more thing-One of these guys is accused of having sex with the imprisoned male students in that facility-this is a frighteningly common situation. If that part sounds loony to you, trust me on this-it happens everyday.
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I doubt we'll have to wait to media this.
I'm sure most of the media have already read it. I'm sure a number of them read the DU. Much of this has been out there already http://rense.com/general59/FLORID.HTM

New information though seems to be that Sharpton is aware of this and someone from The Nation. The Nation did write a rather favorable editorial about all this business this week. Maybe that's because they know there's something to it?
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
88. Isn't posting here to this open forum
mediating this?

i mean, are you going to put your tax returns on here next because it's so safe and secure?

The whole thing sounds bogus to me, from your advice to "hold back" to what's in the letter, obviously the "protected name" is not needed to be kept secret because presumably whoever hired him for security would know who it is.


SOUNDS VERY BOGUS AND TINFOILISH TO ME
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #88
113. How did the Watergate accusations sound in the beginning?
It is very strange and on the sensationalistic side, but I wouldn't dismiss it, and don't think its tinfoilish.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #113
142. I think when you claim to be hiding someone idenity
for their safty, yet you openly reveal their position and when they were employed you are leaving yourself open to charges that your story doesn't make sense.

Whoever hired the guy knows who it is from the description.

So why act coy?
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #142
163. You are right.
I think the less this story is spread around the better. If this is a legitimate issue, let the ones involved in this on a deeper level than we are get it sorted out and present it in a more legitimate manner.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #142
274. Know what a 'red herring' is?
It's another form of protection.
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TexasChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
6. jsamuel , the letter seems like it's from rense.com, is it not?
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 01:49 AM by TexasChick
I don't know if I trust anything from rense.com. They are a lot like conspirator types. How can we verify this information?



On edit: I didn't mean to imply that rense.com are conspirators, but you know what I mean. A lot of their stuff seems far fetched to me unless I'm getting them confused with someone else?
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I got it directly from Jeff Fishers official website
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TexasChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Oh, okay. Sorry, I didn't realize that. Thanks! n/t
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. This is the article...
from rense.com. http://rense.com/general59/FLORID.HTM It contains some of the same general ideas but this e-mail contains a lot more details. And I think that I had read somewhere else that the 2002 primary with McBride/Reno was rigged. (Was that the commondreams.org article?) I also read somewhere that there was suspicion that Max Cleland's senate race and the Georgia 2002 governor's race were also targeted. I believe those both showed the same exit poll vs result differences that we see here. (Don't quote me on that part. I don't remember the source.)
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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
246. Yes. So many here say they haven't heard of Bev Harris
but she is the same person that brought to light the Max Cleland ousting. She found the RobGeorgia.zip file. It has been completely downloaded, copied many times over and is in safe keeping. That's how BlackBox voter got started.
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BansheeDem Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #13
277. Interesting take ... but
even us Dems in the state thought that Cleland had been largely ineffectual in bringing home projects and funding for Georgia and that he had aligned himself too closely with the very left wing of the party - and I believe that the state turned against him largely for that reason. Remember that Georgia is a very "Red" state comprised of a LOT of moderate Democrats, and Max was not as popular as we might have liked. Was there a great conspiracy to gt rid of him? (possible for certain) but his declining popularity was a more likely event. Sad to say, but true.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
27. on rense...
the articles he cites are not written by him, but submitted or he finds them. He puts alot of everything on that site. I don't think any time is put into credibility. He pretty much lets the reader decide that.

I will say that I first came across leaked info on the Palme lead on rense, wasn't even on mainstream media yet. Had a friend forward it on to major media connections and the story broke nationwide after that.

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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #27
38. Whats the Palme lead?
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #38
95. Plame, its a typo.
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #95
150. Oh duh!
And look what the Plame lead has given us....
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
7. A couple questions...
Anyone from Florida know about Baypoint School? Who are Blass and Klock?
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
21. I'll just talk to myself....
since no one raced with an answer to this....

Apparently Bay Point is a real facility - or facilities. They apparently have two campuses in south Florida.

http://www.djj.state.fl.us/djjservices/residential/resc...

http://www.djj.state.fl.us/djjservices/residential/resc...
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Well, the guy who wrote this is a real congressman from Florida, so
I would expect his info would at least be accurate as far as the bare facts are concerned. I just can't believe the whole thing yet... to weird. WAY too weird.
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. I thought he was...
just a candidate for Congress in Florida. Besides, being in Congress hardly enhances your credibility with me at this point!
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. GOOD POINT!
:puke:
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TR Fan Donating Member (160 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #22
131. Actually, he lost 68-32 n/t
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floridadem30 Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #131
292. I live in this county and I don't think so.
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
35. I'll keep talking to myself...
Apparently Dr. Piotr Blass has his PhD in Computer Sciences and Mathematics.

http://www.floridian.biz/DrPiotrBlass.pdf

http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com/Campaign2006/blass...

I find it strange that a copy of his CV is hosted on Jeff Fisher's website.

Apparently he's a professor at this technical college. http://www.keisercareer.com /
(No faculty pages to confirm though.)

His website seems to be the same as Fisher's CV page of his...
http://www.pblass.com /

And what is this drama about Blass' son being kidnapped by the state?
http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com/indexlinkshumanrig...

More weirdness...
http://capwiz.com/wagingpeace/e4/dnets/?sid=113478&id=1...

At last! A picture of Blass with more info...
http://www.congress.org/congressorg/dnetstatements.tt?i...


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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. I'll bite. You did some good Googling. This story reads like...
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 02:54 AM by Fridays Child
...a political thriller. I honestly can't figure out what to make of it. Maybe it'll become clearer in the morning.
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. You're right....
I googled for answers. And instead I have more questions about the reliability of these characters.
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #35
49. This whole thing with Blass' son in the cult is really weird
and his Congress page is just as strange, full of semi-incoherant, all caps rambling and a photo of him in a graduation cap which looks like it must be at least 20 years old.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #35
178. Blass was a "Write-In Candidate" sounds disturbed..but here's a snip
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 02:44 PM by KoKo01
of his Curriculum Vitae....I doubt he attended Harvard...or did half of what he said here, because frankly he sounds bizarre...but here's a snip.

Curriculum Vitae
Dr. Piotr Blass
Curriculum Vitae
Dr. Piotr Blass

(Click on this picture of him with his "Cap" on....sheesh...
http://images.capwiz.com/img/photos/145860.jpg?size=147...


113 West Tara Lake Drive
Boynton Beach, FL 33436 Citizenship: United States
Phone: (561) 523-1701 (cell) Three Sons: James, Oscar and David
Email: pblass2002@yahoo.com
Education
Ph.D. University of Michigan, 1977
M.A. Harvard University, 1976
M.A. University of Michigan, 1969
B.A. (equivalent) Wars... (more)3 West Tara Lake Drive
Boynton Beach, FL 33436 Citizenship: United States
Phone: (561) 523-1701 (cell) Three Sons: James, Oscar and David
Email: pblass2002@yahoo.com
Education
Ph.D. University of Michigan, 1977
M.A. Harvard University, 1976
M.A. University of Michigan, 1969
B.A. (equivalent) Warsaw University, 1968


Professional Experience
2004- US Senate Candidate for the State of Florida
2004- Professor of Computer Mathematics at Keiser Career College in South Florida.
Implementing state of the art school for professional students. Presiding over Ettinger University for staff development. The School is well known in Florida as one of the best career schools in the state.

2003- Professor of Computer Mathematics at Baypoint Schools in South Florida.
Implementing state of the art school for teenagers at risk. Presiding over Ettinger University for staff development. The School of sponsored by the Governor
of Florida as one of the best in the country.
2002- Chief Architect, Alenet Inc. Miami, Florida. Designed and constructed a complete CRM system using PHP and Mysql. Several major contracts resulted from this work.

2001- Computer Science, Florida Atlantic University, Devry University Orlando
Teaching the class of Data Base, Principles of Software Engineering and Data Structure and Algorithms

Chief Architect, Zeosync Inc. Data Compression, Financial Software, Controlled Fusion
Research. Video on Demand, HDTV. Simultaneously teaching Software Engineering and Data structures classes at Florida Atlantic University as well as Mathematics classes at Broward Community College. Several patents are in progress. Developed software for Time Warner AOL and for Sony. Lead a group of developers including top national and international experts in data compression, financial computing and controlled fusion research. Multimillion-dollar revenue for the company resulted. Chairman of Zaamen Inc a newly established industry leader.

2000- Chief Scientist, Grasshopper Central Inc.
Distance learning universal patented software. Web enabled courses and universities. National
Traffic Safety Institute course for all fifty states. SQL Server 2000, ASP, Cold Fusion, E Commerce, XML.Data Warehousing and Data Mining. Assured a long-term multimillion-dollar contract for the company with NTSI. Coded data driven Search Engine software. Responsible for a team of developers, academic consultants, visual artists and business leaders working on creating, testing and implementing the proprietary educational software. Developed a new proprietary web highlighter using MFC. Implemented web enabled asset allocation and options trading software. Designed a proprietary inventory control system.
1999- Senior Developer, Claimcard, Inc.
Stored Value Card Authorization. Data Warehousing SQL coding, OLTP and OLAP Systems design and implementation. Created a system with several million credit cards on line. Database tuning. Index tuning. Query optimization. Normalization Issues resolved. Constructed from scratch a complete data warehouse using SQL Server 7 OLAP tools.
Used ROLAP, MOLAP and HOLAP techniques. Radical simplification of the system resulted from this work. Considerable revenue and recognition for the company followed. Used Platinum ERWIN tool for data modeling and presenting the terabytes of data necessary for this project
1998 - Chief Technical Officer and Database Administrator, Airtime Technologies, Inc.
Designed and coded a proprietary SQL 7.0 database for POS Transaction processing. Interface with Verifone terminals and printers. This system is currently processing up to a million transactions daily. It is flexible enough to accommodate a variety of terminal loads and to sell a large selection of products such as cellular phones, calling cards, foreign exchange cash cards, etc. Patent is pending. The system is also implemented using Oracle and UNIX environment. Created, coded and delivered a complete reporting system for merchants, carriers and ISO?s.

1998 Systems Analyst and Senior Developer, ADT, Inc.
Implementing CORBA Solutions in the context of a very large ORACLE database. Testing financial interface with Melon Bank. Tools used were IDL, PS/SQL, C++, Developer 2000, and FTP Servers, UNIX Shell scripts.
1998 Senior Developer, AIE, Inc.
Developed a system applicable to lotteries and options trading. Three tier architecture including an MS SQL 7.0 database, IIS Server, ASP, ISAPI programming, seamless integration with Macromedia. and Shockwave multimedia interface. Considerable revenue resulted, several patents are pending.
1998 Webmaster, Search Engine Analyst, Director of Scientific Marketing Research,
Web Marketing, Inc.
Designed and developed Websites for a variety of products and companies and maximized web traffic by developing a proprietary analytical statistical tool focused on the AltaVista and Infoseek Search Engines. Considerable increase in web traffic was achieved. Daily work with Windows 98, MS Office 97, PFT, UNIX web servers. Multiple Statistical Regression tools, clustering analysis tools and web traffic analysis software.

1998 Database Project Director, Bank Rate Monitor, Inc.
Designed an industry-wide database to describe the entire financial industry in the U.S. including BRM Publications, Financial Institutions, and Financial Products. The database is being implemented using SQL Server 6.5, Visual Interdev 6.0, Visual FoxPro 6.0, Visual Studio 6.0, Visual C++ 6.0, J++ 6.0, and Visual Basic, 6.0. Coordinated a seminar of users and database administrators. Added new products such as variable annuities, exchange rates to BRM products. The database is producing for example for Federal Reserve, New York Times, Kiplingers, Money Magazine, etc. Created proprietary asset allocation software. Performed statistical studies of bank concentrations. Developed new timing and scheduling implementations. Coordinated training of students by BRM from top universities and high schools.

1998 Director of Engineering, Click Flood Express, Inc.
Developing a system for electronic commerce nationwide in scope. Distributed databases. Verisign credit card security Internet faxing gateways. Coordinating work with subcontractors. Access Crystal Reports, Cold Fusion, Active Server Pages, Actibase, Oracle, JavaScript, VB Script, Java, JDBC, ODBC, and Database normalization and optimization techniques are among tools used. Organized scientific advisory board including top scientists. Active in shareholder relations and fundraising for the company. Worked closely with artists and webmasters to maintain artistic appeal of the GUIS multimedia, streaming video, streaming audio and advertising tickertape were employed with state of the art compression methods. Designed an event tracking method for advertising and accounting purposes.



1998 Director of Computer Science, Digital Crossover Systems DXO
Development of the backbone structure for a large telephone and data network. Utilizing PBX, ADSL, ATM and compression techniques. Design of global routers and other aspects of the network topology. Coding in C, C++, UNIX, PSOS, and Linux. Programming microcomputers and chips. Coordinating scientific advisory board collaborating with local phone contractors and with Sprint scientists. Effective fundraising work for the company.

1997 Developer and Project Manager, Galacticomm, Inc.
Developing a Web enabled database super system, Actibase, based on ODBC, Visual C++, Data Base SDK, and Visual Basic. Production Manager for Actibase. An application to catalogues and finance. Work with major companies including AT&T, Simon & Schuster,
and Standard & Poor. Techniques used include ISAPI, Active HTML, CGI, Cold Fusion,
advanced SQL, Borland C++, Microsoft and Netscape
DNet profiles are provided by candidates and have not been edited by
DNet or Capitol Advantage.

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freeplessinseattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
10. truth can be stranger than fiction
the question is, is it possible? and has this been investigated before this info was sent and posted? or can the rethugs try to cover their tracks now that they know they've been caught out? I don't think they can though, unless they hack in and erase the names, but taht would change the vote numbers, so they are screwed-ha!
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TexasChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. I love your member name! It rocks! n/t
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freeplessinseattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #12
33. Thank You TexasChick! :) and maybe, just maybe
hope is still on the way. it really is hard to believe in a naturally occuring karmic world when scam artists corrupt the system and throw the natural order of things out of whack.

"raped of our voting rights" indeed.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
43. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
freeplessinseattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #43
58. Pardon Me! You are one rude person, sounds more like a freeper than
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 03:34 AM by freeplessinseattle
myself! Seriously, this is incredibly rude-have you read any of my other posts, or these ones here for that matter??

this is uncalled for, I'm contacting a mod right now.
Your attitude is shmaeful to be associated with this board. learn some manners.

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milkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
14. You should refrain from posting totally undocumented posts from
other boards. Where did this come from? Who says this came from Jeff Fisher personally?

This seems like total nonsense. Why on earth would any responsible person include Russell Baker's personal cell phone number (if it's true).

I believe this is the second thread you have started tonight using an unverified posting from another board. Please save the gossip for those other boards. While the people here at DU are highly opinionated, we try to back up our claims with evidence. If you are here at DU for a while, you will see that there are a lot of serious people here that try to present their arguments in a sound manner.

And I noticed you have made 131 posts in your three days here. How did you manage that?
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Again, I got it directly from Jeff Fisher's official website
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 02:00 AM by jsamuel
http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com/Campaign2006/index...


And for the 3rd time, I AM SORRY ABOUT THE SOURCE BEING WRONG IN THAT ONE POST!!!!
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milkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #15
30. That was not a "source" you used in the other thread. It was only a post
on one board, referring to a post on another board, which was using wrong information.

You were simply passing along bad information from somebody you were unfamiliar with, and without checking out that information. At a time when the corporate media is trying to dismiss our arguments about the election as simply wild rumors by "conspiracy theorists," we need to try not to confirm their suspicions of us.

DU has been mentioned in the mainstream media several times lately, and the number of new members is growing rapidly. I would hate to see DU become simply a dumping ground for unsubstantiated gossip. In the time I have been posting here (and lurking before that), I have been amazed by the talents and knowledge of the people on this board. People here sure do get passionate sometimes, but when making charges they try to base their arguments on sound reasoning and verifiable evidence.

I checked your link to Fisher's web site, and I must say that I'm still confused by this whole thing. What is this letter, and why on earth is Russell Baker's personal phone number being passed around on the Internet? I am by nature skeptical, not only of the bush administration and the right, but of anybody making claims while offering no evidence to back it up. We shall see if there is any forthcoming.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #30
39. WTF?
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 02:41 AM by jsamuel
Regarding my previous post:
Ok, for the 4th time now, I AM SORRY! WTF MORE DO YOU WANT!

Regarding not posting false information:
I KNOW THAT! I saw that same information on 2 different places and I thought it was legit, I was wrong. FOR THE 5th TIME SORRY!

Regarding Fisher being crazy or not:

I HAVE NO IDEA! THAT IS WHY I POSTED IT SO THAT WE COULD LOOK IT OVER AND DISCUSS IT! IF THE DU WAS JUST FOR ABSOLUTELY SOLID INFORMATION THEN WE WOULDN'T EVEN BE TALKING ABOUT VOTER FRAUD! I GAVE YOU THE DIRECT SOURCE AND IF YOU HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THE INFORMATION, GO YELL AT HIM.
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TexasChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #39
138. Don't apologize, man! This is what makes DU great! Discussing things
and sorting things out! If I don't agree with something, I just politely ask questions on where you got it. Don't fret!
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. I was a 1500+ poster at johnkerry.com
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 02:03 AM by jsamuel
Ask NEM, if you know him, he would know me. I am no type of freeper.

Skip that, go to http://commongroundcommonsense.org and search for my user name jsamuel

Also go to http://forum.johnkerry.com and search my user name jsamuel

As you will see if you look through my posts I am a very SOLID Kerry supporter, however I am an independent.
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #17
40. I can vouch for jsamuel
I was on the John Kerry forum as FL_Indy_4_Kerry and jsamuel is a regular and respected member there.

There was something posted here about the Bay Point School connection last week, I think. It was pretty well dissed (I didn't believe it myself). But on second thought, if you're going to have someone hack for you, then detained juvenile delinquents = plausible deniability. Who'd believe any of them, even if they found a way to speak up?

Not saying I buy this story -- and jsamuel does include a caveat emptor in his post -- but we KNOW what Rove is capable of. This is not beneath him or his cronies.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. THANKS! Great to see you here!
I don't know how credible Fisher is, but so far I haven't seen anything to discredit him...

Let me know if anyone has anything...
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #40
85. After Dan Rather and CBS were taken in,
I was just thinking that myself.
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #17
96. I CAN CERTAINLY VOUCH FOR JSAMUEL ALSO !!!!!
Several of us flip back and forth from CSCG, JK/JE, to DU. Where is Halo and AIndependentTexan ??????????? They can vouch also!!!
We all started out on the JK/JE forum and learned how to utilize the information here as well. WELCOME US!!!!!!
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #96
102. Charles Figley - THIS FITS INTO THE PICTURE
I recognized the name. If it is the same Charles Figley that I know. He is (or was) a Ph.D professor @ Florida State University, Tallahassee, in the School of Social Work (where I received my masters). Go to Amazon.com. He has written books on children and abuse. This fits folks!!!!!!!!!!!! It fits that Dr. Charles Figley (more than likely a democrat) would be looking into TRAUMA AND CHILD ABUSE in these institutions, if he knew what was going on. Is the the same Charles Figley? Don't know. My GUESS is that it is! He is HIGHLY respected!!!!!!!
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #96
110. Welcome to DU BamaBecky.
Don't let the other poster unnerve you, folks are very touchy and tend to take it out on others. We apprecciate your imput and welcome your posts.

Welcome to DU :hi:
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #96
140. Welcome!!
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 11:31 AM by senseandsensibility
Sorry it's late, but I slept in out here on the left coast! I am enjoying most of the new members that have posted on DU since the election. As far as I'm concerned, we need their energy right now. Welcome, and I look forward to reading more. :hi:
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #17
112. Welcome to DU jsamuel.
Thank you for the very interesting links. Don't let others bother you. You cannot be held responsible for the contents of the links you post, just know that rense is not considered a credible source by many on DU.

I am not sure about fisher, but at least he is a legit candidate and is fighting to get the votes verified and counted.

Welcome :hi:
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ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #17
128. Vouch
I can vouch for jsamuel as well. He is and has been a great contributor to the Kerry (now Common Ground) Forum.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
228. Excuse me but who the heck are you?
Take a look at my post count. I have been here almost from the first month it opened. I can assure you that all kinds of stuff gets posted here and not all of it is perfectly documented before it is posted and discussed.
You don't get to tell people what they can post. I realize that a few people are afraid of what "we look like" to the media or people who might be dropping in to read here. But the media sucks and they will write the tone of the story they are doing based on everything BUT reality. We certainly can not be bothered to cater to them.

Get over your control issue. Information is information and eventually it will all get sorted out.
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Cobalt Violet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
16. WTF! Just tragic.
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 01:59 AM by Cobalt Violet
Who got killed. How much blood is on Jeb's hands.

Our poor country! We have won in 2000 and 2004 and the legitimate president has not been able to serve. Something better come of all this and quickly!

It sound to me like we are at War. We are coup victims and most don't even know it.

What would our founders think?

:cry:
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
18. Additional info and more of the same...
http://truffula.net/~e/rhizosophy/archives/000044.html

Apparently Joseph Klock was Katherine Harris' attorney in 2000? Can we confirm this?
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shelley806 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #18
79. See post #73 below: CNN archive: Klock was Harris' attorney
for the Florida recount dispute! That is strange to me. (I don't believe coincidental)

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/11/16/harris.discretio ... /

Judge rules Florida Secretary of State did not abuse her discretion in denying recount

A Florida judge ruled Friday that Secretary of State Katherine Harris did not arbitrarily refuse to accept hand recounts of Florida's presidential ballots in some counties. Vice President Al Gore's lawyers and other plaintiffs filed a combined lawsuit claiming Harris abused her discretion in refusing to accept further recounts.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Lawyers for Democratic presidential candidate Al Gore asked a Florida judge Thursday to rule that Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris arbitrarily refused to accept hand recounts of Florida's presidential ballots in some counties despite a court order to the contrary.


See rest of snip below; #73





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blitzburgh55 Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #18
80. Klock was Harris's lawyer
HMMMM

Joseph Klock, attorney for Katherine Harris, Florida's Republican secretary of state, said "the only problem we have here is people who did not follow instructions." He added: "A ballot that is not properly punched is not a legal ballot." Pressed about the issue of standards, Klock said ultimately it is a question for the state legislature. "The Supreme Court of Florida cannot sit down and write a standard," he remarked.


http://usembassy.state.gov/islamabad/wwwh00121201.html
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nodictators Donating Member (977 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
167. Yes, it's true
Klock even argued in one of the cases before the US Extreme Court.

He made a fool of himself when he kept calling one of the 4 sane Justices Justice Brennan, who had died several decades before.

It may well be that Idiot Klock meant his mistakes to be a right-wing insult, since right-wingers hated Brennan because was a supposed "Liberal".
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mdb Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
19. Joseph Klock Jr.
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:07 AM
Response to Original message
20. Who would believe a bunch of juveinal deliquents?
<i>Adjusting tin foil hat</i>

Okay when I first read this I thought that the HAD to be kidding, "This is rediculolus."

But who would they have more power over than kids who are prisoners?

Who would believe that anything they might have to say was anything more than a grandiose dream or nightmare?

But why would they need the kids?
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Who knows?
This theme keeps popping up though. The first time it popped up I think it included a link to the Yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ElectionFraud2004 / and onto the rense.com article http://rense.com/general59/FLORID.HTM .

I agree that this seems a little far-fetched to say the least but we do have to acknowledge that Jeff Fisher was cited in the Thom Hartmann article on commondreams.org and reprinted on Michael Moore's website. If Jeff Fisher called the FBI, Al Sharpton, and Ralph Nader, maybe there is something behind all of this.

What about Jeff Fisher? Is he a credible source? Anyone?
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. I wish I knew, as of yet I don't think we know, but he could be
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. thanks for posting this ..if even 50% of this is true
we are in deep shit.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #20
34. let's dissect this
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 02:34 AM by m berst
I shouldn't respond to this, but it is such a work of art that I thought it might be useful to analyze. NLP in action!

"Who would believe a bunch of juveinal deliquents?"

This opening sentence gets the post off to a good start. It implants idea of "a bunch of juvenile delinquents" in the reader's mind and couples it with "who would believe..." implying that the reader would have to be pretty deranged to believe (any of)this. Clever work. It could have said "welfare queens" or "crack heads" just as easily. It uses a common technique now used in what passes for reasonable discourse - the creation of an artificial and automatically discredited group that the writer or speaker is supposedly assigned to, so that anything they say is suspect regardless of its worthiness. The real irony of this is that it flies, while the statement "who would believe anything George Bush says given his track record for falsehoods" does not. So a real person, with real evidence of their untrustworthiness is given the benefit of the doubt, while a person arbitrarily given membership in some made up group presumed to be unreliable is not. There is a lot being said in this sentence.

"<i>Adjusting tin foil hat</i>"

This is pretty obvious. The unanswerable charge. It shuts down any and all detailed analysis, since it is impossible to prove any point without developing and communcating a theory and this pre-emptively discredits all theories. I have a theory as to how bread gets to my table. If I tried to explain that to you, and you had already been told that I was wearing a tinfoil hat, you might dismiss my explanation of how farmers and millers work cooperatively, and then bakers and truck drivers get involved - it is a massive conspiracy!!

"Okay when I first read this I thought that the HAD to be kidding, 'This is rediculolus.' "

First read it, middle read it, and last read it. "First read it" suggests (falsely) that the poster started on this "venture of truth-seeking" with an open mind.

"But who would they have more power over than kids who are prisoners?"

Just confusion and distraction here.

"Who would believe that anything they might have to say was anything more than a grandiose dream or nightmare?"

Now we introduce more self-supporting statements as though they were actually a logical train of thought. "They" have been established by the opening sentence to be unreliable, regardless of what they say. Now we further dress them up with "grandiose dream" and "nightmare" to advance the mental picture being created in the reader's mind.

"But why would they need the kids?"

Yeah!!! Explain that one! At this point in the post, one little piece of the article is pulled out that can be, in isolation and out of context, harped on and used to disprove the whole thesis. We can see that happening now out of the RNC on the Florida panhadle counties.



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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #34
54. See Nordic's post below
I have seen them make the truth strange enough that no one will believe it.
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Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #20
36. the CIA and blackops folks always do this and here's why
they always recruit people with shady backgrounds and sketchy lives to do their dirty work.

Why?

Because when these people get caught, when they start saying "well the CIA paid me to do whatever", the authorites look at them like they're insane and say "riiiiiight ..."

Once they're busted, they have no credibility and the CIA can successfully abandon them.

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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #36
51. That was my point
But why did they need the kids?

Or more to the point, how many people did they feel they needed?

Centeral tabulator hacking would concievably take only one or two coders.

What were they up to for it to be worth the risk of involving more people?
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Good question, considering it could have as easily been one script...
that could be uploaded to all the tabulators. If that was possible, and I believe it was, then why would they need so many kids for this? Why involve more people?
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. The only thing that I can think of
is that there are so many different modles of machine and tablulators that they could hack some from afar and some had to actually be physically tampered with.
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #56
69. And we still don't know...
Were enough tabulators connected to the Internet to make a difference? There didn't seem to be all that many in Ohio to be sure.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Maybe thats why there were glitches in other places. We've never had a concrete explanation for Gahanna's 4000 votes here in Ohio. And Auglaize county had an inappropriate intrusion from someone from ES&S. I don't remember where I read that article. The numbers there look fairly standard though. Auglaize, Clermont, Clinton, Hancock, Holmes, Mercer, Putnam, Shelby, Van Wert, Warren. All of those counties broke 70% for Bush. We have anomolies in Auglaize with the ES&S intrusion. An anomoly in in Warren with the lockdown. And a possible anomoly in Clermont with absentee vs election day deviation.
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lizzieforkerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #69
98. THERE IS NO WAY BUSH GOT 72% IN WARREN CO
Sorry for yelling, I couldn't help it. Seriously though, it didn't happen. I don't know what they did, but Kerry got a higher percentage of votes than 28%
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nodictators Donating Member (977 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #98
171. Both Auglaize and Warren counties had late plunges in Kerry's percentages
I took snapshots of both the Ohio and Florida statewide county-by-county election results from about 9:30 pm EST to 9 am the following morning.

There were 3 Ohio counties that had Kerry's percentage of the votes plunge more than 5 percentage-points in the dark of the night.

The two in the post header and Hamilton County (includes Cincinnati).

I sent this info and much, much more factual info in an Excel workbook to the DNC last week. They never even acknowledged it.


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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #171
176. Send it to crew@blackboxvoting.org also
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #171
182. Warren county, where they locked everyone out...
Claiming Homeland Security issued a #10 level Terrorist threat ...
I had wondered if perhaps this was a staging area for some of the electronic voting manipulation, but then found out Warren Co. used punch-card ballots. Wonder just what was going on in that room?
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #171
225. This is strange enough....
that it deserves its own thread!
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lizzieforkerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #171
236. Can you pm that to me? I have been looking for it and haven't been
able to find just Warren County results. Thanks!

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milkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #171
264. Do you have a link for that info? It's interesting because Auglaize County
is where an ES&S employee was caught tampering with a voting machine a couple of weekends before the election. Here's a discussion of it:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #36
115. You mean like the fellow arrested in Afghanistan for abuse
and torture of suspected terrorists? When arrested he said Rumsfield and CIA hired him to try to find Usama. Of course, Rumsfield and CIA denied it and said he was a kook, he is now left hanging in the wind.
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Robert Oak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #20
48. it doesn't make any sense
I went and did a quick google on this guy and didn't come up
w/ anything.

but in terms of hacking the letter itself and the terms do not make
sense.

Using all of those kids? Why? The system is so corrupt any 1 guy
sitting in Russia can do this all just fine...BBV and others
have shown just how easy it is...you do not need a herd of hacker
kids, especially hackers stateside, even if they are in prison.

Talk about loose lips sink ships disaster waiting to happen...

it just doesn't sound right on mulitple fronts.

but, I also have a hard time believing a guy with that kind of resume
who ran for a state seat magically developed paranoid schizophrenia
overnight and decided to forge a letter...

so conclusion, wtf.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #20
94. Because they can manipulate and control these kids
The conditions in these detention facilities are horrible. Life there is miserable and dangerous. Oh course, in any group of people you will always have a few smart ones. A few that are good at computers and have no qualms about doing illegal things. Now take those handpicked smarties and turn them into hackers. Then give them perks and an easier life, a shorter stay, and you have a very loyal kid who is willing to do whatever you want.

Google Bay Point School and Jeb and you will see that Jeb seems to really favor this particular operation. He mentions them a lot it seems.

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pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:26 AM
Response to Original message
28. I would suggest dropping this.
We have no way of verifying any of this. It could be completely made up for all we know. Could even be a "plant" intended to discredit information coming from the internet. Regardless, various investigators and law enforcement has supposedly been contacted, so if there's anything of merit, it'll come out. Does us no good to spread this around without any way of verifying the information.
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milkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. You are absolutely right. nt
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kristndem Donating Member (346 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #28
92. I'm with you
If there's something to it, good people are working on, if not let it go!
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
168. I suggest discussing what we want to here.
:)
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pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #168
184. I'm trying to be helpful to our cause.
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 03:43 PM by pointsoflight
I'm not trying to tell anyone what to talk about and what not to talk about. Some are, however, already saying they're going to send this to the media. That, in my opinion, is not helpful to our cause given that we have no way of knowing if there's any truth to this. As I said in my original post, it could even be a made up story that's intended to discredit us. Why make it easy for the media to dismiss and belittle us as wacky conspiracy theorists?

It's one thing to forward statistical analyses and the like to the media, since we're talking about actual data that they can confirm for themselves. It's a whole other thing to forward a supposed letter that's circulating on the internet.
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pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #184
186. Oops...double post.--deleted.
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 03:14 PM by pointsoflight
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #184
192. Well I just sent it to the media. Thanks for your concern.
I'll leave it to "them" to contact Mr. Fisher and his sources.

It's not just "a letter circulating on the internet" it's a letter by a former congressional candidate in Florida who has names/dates/places.

As for being "dismissed" by the lazy media ... I'll take my chances. I always do.

:hi:

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pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #192
206. Your perogative, but the original poster himself thinks this is a bad idea
See the very first sentence of his original post and his latest post, #196.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #206
221. OH well. I don't feel I should have to ask permission as it's not a
copyright violation. The link is to a website of one Mr. Jeff Fisher who has been in contact with the FBI over this matter.

Jeff Fisher is a Congressman from Floridas 16th district.

"I will continue to fight for the people of District 16, for Florida and the entire nation."

Here's Jeff with his dog.



Looks harmless to me? :shrug:

I also sent it to the House Congressional Committee Democrats and the GAO and asked for them to investigate. ;)

I pass no judgement on Mr. Fisher or his story, but I do hope it is investigated none the less.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #168
272. I also suggest discussing this..
.. I've always been an advocate of the newbies here, but I get a bit wierded out when I see scads of new people coming on board telling us to let something drop. I've noticed that a lot with this thread, lots of people don't want it discussed.

It's almost too illicit an affair to be untrue. So many strange twists and turns...

I don't discount the scattering of the code work in this. I maintain that the election was embezzled, not stolen. If you take 1,000 votes here, 600 votes there, it's MUCH harder to trace, than to take hundreds of thousands from one computer system. That would lend credence to why they'd have many hands in this.

Could be a total fantasy.. but there are too many questions to ignore. Weren't all big crimes at one time 'conspiracies'???
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
174. I would suggest if you don't want to discuss this
then don't post here. There's a lot that can be verified, if one bother to read some of the links.
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pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #174
189. I'm just suggesting not to send it to the media at this point.
Of course, by all means everyone should discuss whatever they want. I just don't think it'd be a good idea to send this stuff to the media at this point, given that we have no way of verifying whether it's accurate, inaccurate, made up, or even a trap intended to make us look bad.

The original poster agrees with me. Note that he edited his original post to say that he, too, suggests that we NOT go to the media with this stuff, not yet anyway.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
29. Kick
eom
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #29
37. Putting the story aside for a moment,
I would like to know if anybody has any background on Fisher.
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #37
45. I agree... What's his deal?
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. FWIW, there's this...
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1106-30.htm

As far as I know, Thom Hartmann is a credible individual and, while he's not necessarily vouching for Fisher here, he does seem to be saying that there may be something to this.
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #37
62. Collecting links on Fisher
HeraldTribune - Candidate Q&A

ExpressGayNews

Good Progressive Candidates

Nothing marking him as a tin-foil hat man that I can find. Married, an outspoken liberal, not afraid to get his hands dirty...a progressive Dean would be proud of, writes one supporter.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. A man Dean would be proud of.... hmmm, doesn't sound bad... wait and see..
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #63
68. Darnit, I don't have the hang of the threads here yet!
But yeah, you get the gist, jsamuel. I can't find any "dirt" on the man.

Btw, I changed him from 'married' to 'activist' in my second post because I realized the way I wrote it the first time made it sound like being gay might be a detriment. NOT my intent! My best friend is gay. :)
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. Ha
:P
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westcoaster Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
46. This makes no sense
Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't figure out what having a list of names such as a disqualified felons list would have to do with e-voting. Maybe if someone could hack the election registrar's computer to change the list of qualified voters - yes - but that would work or not work no matter what the actual voting system. When people arrive at the polls, the pollworkers either allow them to vote - or not - by reference to a printed list. The votes recorded on the e-voting system is not correlated to names - they are just numbers -- and at a minimum to avoid detection the total on the machines from a given precinct must correlate to the manual count of the names checked off on the paper list maintained by the poll workers.

So what does a felon's list have to do with anything? Again - I can think of many ways where such a list could somehow be used to attack the actual registration lists - and of course those are computer generated -- but that's got nothing to do with the e-voting systems.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. Do you think it may have something to do with that "cage" list that was...
emailed within the Repubs in Florida in Jacksonville. I remember a story about that. There were some 1,700 people in Jacksonville alone on that "cage" list.
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #47
52. I never heard about that...
what was that all about?
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. From the BBC, if THAT IS A GOOD ENOUGH SOURCE FOR EVERYONE!?
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 03:16 AM by jsamuel
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3956129...

I wonder if those same people were stopped from voting... hmmm...
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #55
60. Oh I remember this article!
I remember thinking how much I LOVED Corinne Brown in that picture. I can just imagine her being like in that picture, "Look at that creepy Republican guy over there! Do you like my hat?"
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neohippie Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #55
97. Is it legal to film voters even at early voting?
That BBC article talks about a private detective filming voters, is that legal?

Also how hard could it be to identify who the MIS director was at Baypoint School? It doesn't sound like they are doing a very good job at protecting Mr XXXXX's identity.
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TexasChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #52
141. jhgatiss, from what I understand, www.georgewbush.org, a parody
site, accidentally received real correspondence from www.georgewbush.com with some very confidential information, which contained attached "cage" lists (Excel spreadsheets) and some more stuff. Go to www.georgewbush.org and they may still have the correspondence up for you to read.
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floridadem30 Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #47
287. The link for the cage list is www.blackboxvoternetwork.com
And DU and BBV are listed there
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #46
91. It checks list checking - so if the game is double voting absentee GOP
this test sees if folks really check list - plus sets up the already voted absentee list as something not that important to check.

We know GOP used this double absentee game in Ohio - having a list of Gopers to offer rides to the polls to on election day - despite knowing they had voted absentee.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:19 AM
Response to Original message
57. WOW!! all of sudden there is an interest in this whacko
conspiracy nut. And everybody gets in line to pay tribute. Jeeeee fackin' wizzzzz!!!!


:eyes:
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. So you can vouch for Fisher being a nut?
Could you show us what you know about him?

I would love to throw this in the waste basket!
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. As sad as it is....
This is the best thing we seem to have for an answer to the "who" question of this little mystery. We have some odd statistics and a couple circumstantial bits that suggest something happened. And so far our mutual suspicions seem to have fallen on Rove himself. If something did happen, I doubt that Rove could have done it all by himself. He must have had some lackies to do it for him. If not the deliquents at Bay Point then who?
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #61
64. Possibily a red herring?
To take the fall for a group of 40 year old master technicians and programers from the CIA?
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YellowDoginthehouse Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #64
78. Hey True....
:hi: It's me, Dawg...
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #78
173. Hey Dawg

Hi old friend!!
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YellowDoginthehouse Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #173
243. I like it over here...
Very lively!

:bounce:
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #243
256. Welcome to DU, YellowDoginthehouse!
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 10:31 AM by merh
Enjoy the discourse. :hi:

If you can, donate what you can to DU and get a star, the advantages to being a donor are tremendous. You can review your posts without having to review the entire thread, you can use the search function and let me tell you there have been some tremendous threads written here on a wide variety of things.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #173
253. Hey truehawk, welcome to DU.
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 10:33 AM by merh
:hi:

If you can, donate what you can to DU and get a star, the advantages to being a donor are tremendous. You can review your posts without having to review the entire thread, you can use the search function and let me tell you there have been some tremendous threads written here on a wide variety of things.

Welcome to DU and enjoy - be careful, it is very addicting! :hi:
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #57
65. Sorry for the double-post
but I put this in the wrong place and I didn't want it to be missed.

HeraldTribune - Candidate Q&A

ExpressGayNews

Good Progressive Candidates

Nothing marking Fisher as a tin-foil hat man that I can find. An activist and outspoken liberal, not afraid to get his hands dirty...a progressive Dean would be proud of, writes one supporter.
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freeplessinseattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #57
66. wait, are you flip-flopping? or playing "freeper's advocate"?:
Carl Brennan (439 posts) Sun Nov-14-04 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #10

43. Hello freeper fuckbrains. Thanks for focusing


Sounds like Fisher might be the real deal. Hope he lives long enough to explain it all.


Kiss my ass!



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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. I don't know, he has been a real A$$ to me so far...
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #67
71. This just doesn't add up for me. Maybe Fisher's been had.
I don't know. But my gut reaction is to not trust this. It seems really illogical to me.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. Me too
I will just wait for some real solid info to come in one way or the other.
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #72
76. I think that its bigger than Jeff Fisher now
We've got a few people getting this letter and if we see anyone pick up this story and run than we can consider the merits of the case... For starters the MO of each of the players checks out and now that the nation is involved... There is mention in one of these emails that the Washington Post is fact checking this material for a story in the next couple days. We won't have to wait too long...

Heliarc
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Cobalt Violet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #71
109. Funny , my gut reaction is that it is true.
And that these people will do ANYTHING to stay in power. Even over through the government.Which is what they have been doing.

What makes anyone think they have any respect for the way America has been voting for all these years.

Personally I chose to believe it's all true until I find out it's not with these people.

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YellowDoginthehouse Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #109
144. I have the same gut reaction
n/t
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #71
197. My HUNCH is the CONNECTION between Fisher & Bay Point
may possibly be a personal one. I'm guessing that somehow Fisher KNOWS what has been going on at that school for a long time. Just a guess.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #66
230. "Freeperless"? What's amatta, you lonely for a freeper?
bwaaaaaa!
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #57
215. Sorry I guess my sarcasm didn't come across very well
I think Jeff Fisher is a real deal.
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shelley806 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:16 AM
Response to Original message
73. Guess what case Klock represented Katherine Harris in? The Florida

recount!!! CNN Archive

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/11/16/harris.discretio... /

Judge rules Florida Secretary of State did not abuse her discretion in denying recount

A Florida judge ruled Friday that Secretary of State Katherine Harris did not arbitrarily refuse to accept hand recounts of Florida's presidential ballots in some counties. Vice President Al Gore's lawyers and other plaintiffs filed a combined lawsuit claiming Harris abused her discretion in refusing to accept further recounts.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Lawyers for Democratic presidential candidate Al Gore asked a Florida judge Thursday to rule that Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris arbitrarily refused to accept hand recounts of Florida's presidential ballots in some counties despite a court order to the contrary.

Florida law says the statewide vote must be certified one week after the election, and that is precisely what Harris did, said Joe Klock, Harris' lawyer. Harris asked counties to send written explanations as to why she should consider manual recounts to comply with Lewis' order, Klock said. Harris then compared the counties' explanations against a list of criteria drawn from prior court decisions regarding elections and found that the counties' reasons for needing extension deadlines did not hold up to case law, Klock said. "She exercised her discretion reasonably in determining whether or not those explanations complied with the acceptable standards," Klock said. "The secretary of state took enormous care to make sure she did not violate the order."


http://omega.twoday.net/stories/393929 /

Jeff Fisher through a confidential informant alleges that the school has direct connections with Joseph Klock, and that a professor at Key College in Dania Beach, Florida and formally of Bay Point School informed him that his loyalty to Klock is more important than the truth about how the 2000 election was manipulated, and how it is possible for a repeat to occur in the upcoming November general election. Mel Sembler, a powerful fundraiser for the Bush Campaign in Florida, is someone who has knowledge of the activities at Bay Point College. We are sure the talented people of the Washington Post and the Miami Herald will release additional details in the upcoming days. Mel Sembler is Ambassador to Italy and a principal in several drug treatment facilities that are under investigation for gross mismanagement.

Joseph Klock, an attorney who facilitated the release of the professors son from an abusive treatment center was, coincidentally, the attorney for Congresswoman Katherine Harris who was the Secretary of State during the contested 2000 Florida recount which helped put George W. Bush in the White House. State's evidence is being given to FBI on 11/08/04

"coincidentally" I wonder...




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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #73
84. IS THIS PRESS RELEASE REALLY FROM BBV.ORG
It is a new one on me.. and it just doesn't look very bev like to me.

http://rense.com/general59/FLORID.HTM

Cover-Up Of 2000 And 2004
Florida Vote Continues
Press Release
Vote Fraud.org
Black Box Voting.org
11-1-4

A senatorial candidate in the 2004 election is suspected of suppressing vital information regarding the electronic manipulation of votes in the 2000 elections. This system of fraud, if still in place, can be used again in the 2004 general election this coming Tuesday, November 2.

Dr. Piotr Blass, a U.S. senatorial candidate in the state of Florida, is reported to be withholding evidence which reveals details regarding the manipulation of votes using the names of individuals who have been placed on the felons list. This is the charge being leveled by Jeff Fisher, who is himself a democratic congressional candidate for Florida's 16th congressional district.

Mr. Fisher believes Dr. Blass is denying the public this crucial evidence in order to protect Joseph Klock, an attorney who facilitated the release of Dr. Blass' son from an abusive treatment center. Mr. Klock was, coincidentally, the attorney for former congresswoman Katherine Harris who was the Secretary of State during the contested 2000 Florida recount which helped put George W. Bush in the White House.

"Dr. Blass obtained this information when he was on the staff at Bay Point School," Fisher stated. Bay Point School is a juvenile correctional facility in the Miami area. "I was told the school is a suspected training ground in computer science and programming for juvenile delinquents who manipulate electronic voting, without a true audit trail. It is believed that this activity is taking place not only there but in several schools like these nationwide. If true, then Bay Point School could be the Florida connection."

Fisher alleges the school has direct connections with Joseph Klock, and that Blass informed him that his loyalty to Klock is more important than the truth about how the 2000 election was manipulated, and how it is possible for a repeat to occur in the upcoming November general election.

"This is unacceptable and, in my opinion, borders on treason," said Fisher, who was visibly upset that someone might help cover-up more election fraud in Florida. "Over the last few days I have been in direct contact with progressive investigative journalist Greg Palast of Gregpalast.com, with the information that was supposed to be delivered to Greg Palast," he added. "But the sender was told by Dr. Blass not to send it. I then informed Greg's senior researcher, Mr. Oliver, about this critical development. I have had partial information in my possession for the past three months. Unfortunately, Dr. Blass has prevented me from releasing it to the general public."

Fisher stated that Dr. Blass claimed his ex-wife had their son falsely imprisoned in a facility called Growing Together, located in Lake Worth, Florida. "Dr. Blass implored me for help to get his son released, which I was able to do without any thoughts of compensation whatsoever," Fisher said. "Then, during the next few months, Dr. Blass began telling me of this vital vote tampering information. Together, we developed a plan to get this information to John Kerry, and Dr. Blass asked me to contact Mr. Kerry through Charles Figley, a campaign liaison."

According to Fisher, those failed efforts influenced Dr. Blass to seek assistance from Klock.

"Dr. Blass is obstructing justice by withholding vital vote tampering information. I would greatly appreciate the help of the American Civil Liberty Union or a competent vote fraud investigator to address a serious and potentially ongoing voting problem in Florida..

Mr. Fisher can be contacted at Jefffisherforcongress@walkingwithfisher.com .

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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #84
86. hmmm...
Well -- I'm looking at the letter on Jeff Fisher's website, seems real enough to me -- I don't know if the rense.com thing is correctly sourced -- If the letter on the Fisher's website is to be believed, just by connecting the dots by way of six degrees of separation(or in this case, one degree-- NADER) -- Blackboxvoting.org is alligned with these allegations in some sort of way--

That being said, the press release does not appear on blackboxvoting.org -- frankly, if I were her I wouldn't touch this far left field story with a ten foot pole in public... not if she wants to be taken seriously --


On a somewhat critical sidenote: Who's doing that site at blackboxvoting.org -- it's slap dash and it's for lack of a better word(s) it's agonizingly hokey... it doesn't ring of professional -- with all the nutty pictures and captions it screams... 'here's a bunch of people sitting around nude with underwear on their heads' ... but that's just me -- maybe if she wants, someone with some web design experience can help her out as a donation.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #86
204. Yes, personally I think this whole thing is a setup.
One odd thing about this PR is that it purports to have come out before the election. How come we have never seen it before?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #84
107. Al maybe you could find out from Bev if this is really from her?
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 09:09 AM by seemslikeadream
I've been wondering the same thing. Randi Rhodes has talked about him and so has Mike Malloy. They both seem to be standing up for Fisher.

Hoea ra te Waka Nei
:hi:
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #107
203. Bev has sent me to coventry unfortunately...
If I send this to her.. she will probably think I made it up.

That said someone should definitely draw it to her attention.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #203
207. So sorry Al
Hard to keep up with all the troop movements! Seems to be a bit of that going on.

:hi:
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #207
224. It happened ages ago actually.. and I don't really mind...
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Digit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #84
148. Let us know if it is, okay?
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:21 AM
Response to Original message
74. Well...
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 04:35 AM by Woo
I don't know what to believe anymore -- I haven't believed my lyin eyes since November 2nd -- to that end, is it that illogical? The majority of these boards assert that electronic voting machines were compromised in some fashion, that's seen as nutty by most people --

So question... I don't think I have my head around this concept yet... but if this is true, will it show up in a hand recount -- in effect this guy is saying they created thousands of dummy voters with these felon list? Is that what I'm getting --

When I read the first generation of this story... it got a huge 'uh huh' -- but in this letter the use of the juvenile delinquents is framed differently -- they weren't hacking into voting machines -- they were developing software for a specific purpose -- I get that it might be possible they might not have known what they were developing... or what they were testing -- etc etc...

Ya know that movie with Val Kilmer... 'Real Genuis' when he as a student is challenged to build a high powered laser -- then once he does it he starts to think about what application would they possibly want that for...

Anyway... I haven't looked at the source of this yet -- but it says at the end of this post that the point person in this AMAZING story has been interviewed by The Nation -- so if that's true, you better believe their are some journalist working round the clock to verify all this info before this story breaks --

BUT -- first things first -- anyone call John Grisham to see if his idea notebook has gone missing?

Oh, btw, that number for Russ Baker seems to be openly circulated -- so I don't believe that's an issue -- just google the number.


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shelley806 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. What do you think about the Katherine Harris Klock connection?
Her attorney was Klock in the Florida recount case (Gore vs...)
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #74
82. On seecond thought...
Ok ok ok... I'm starting to kind of believe this -- at least when I put it in its own microcosm -- I'm still going with the sensible approach that if you can do a hand recount something will come up -- but then again this thing claims it can't be audited -- so now I'm scared when it comes to doing recounts they're going to come up with nothing.

Think about this -- he's been openly making these allegations for about a week or more -- maybe even longer than that. Wouldn't Klock and Blass come out and openly refute this if it were the ravings of a madman... couldn't they sue this guy?

Instead, if my intuition serves me correctly these people have obtained lawyers... and they're staying quiet until/if this breaks.

ANd another thing -- just my observations --WHERE IS EVERYONE?? I know Al Sharpton... not personally, but I've watched him at work since his ambulance chasing days -- after the election he has been silent -- so has Jesse Jackson -- I know and you know that they would have been on the minority voter suppression cases in Ohio like a dog to a bone, if that's the only thing they could hang their hat on -- but something else is brewin, me thinks.

I'm sorry, I'm convinced... not of the truth of the allegations(because they are far fetched) but that something is going on around this and something very ugly is going to come of it.
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YellowDoginthehouse Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:29 AM
Response to Original message
81. Truth is stranger than fiction...
Life experience has proven that to be true...

I betcha this story is the truth, just because it makes very little sense. Look at it this way-who would have believed that the Republican party was dumb enough to burglarize Democratic HQ at the Watergate? It was just too weird to be true.

But it happened.
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #81
83. But why would they risk involving any more people
than would be absolutely necessary?
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #81
172. Remember Watergate was called a "Third Rate Burglery?" Wigs and
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 02:19 PM by KoKo01
fake mustaches worn...yet these were "independent contractors" with CIA...Bay of Pigs..etc. No one could believe that story was worth anything when it first broke. It was played in the press and on networks like the "memo's" that were hacked from the Senate Demomocrats "shared computer." "Just a bunch of jokers fooling around with the Democrats." Anyone remember that story? Has Orrin Hatch and his "Computer Advisor" ever been brought to justice? But, Watergate's just a bunch of jokers fooling around..brought down a President. It grew legs whereas "Senate Memogate" died. However, maybe there's a connection between what we think isn't important or sounds foolish and what eventually comes out when the truth is sought. :shrug:

I don't know if all this Fisher, and Bay Point school has any merit, but I do know that the Convicted Felons List was a big deal in 2000 Selection.... The tie in to this story is interesting.

Who knows.... and my gut still tells me Bushies stole another election...so they did it some way. And, I still remember Chimp interview on a plane a few days before "Selection 2000" where he looked at the reporter and said: "I know I'm going to win." There was something about the look on his face when he said that..so cocky, so sure that gave me chills. And, that's before I even knew what a crook he would turn out to be int he four years he's been installed AND the connections to the BFEE! Whenever I get a gut feeling about an expression that haunts me with someone...it turns out that my sense of it was true...always...I've learned to trust my gut through the years.

"I know I'm Going to Win." It didn't have the sound that most politicians have when asked that question. They ususally preface the statement with something like "we've worked hard, we are energized we are confident about the vote." They don't say.."I know I'm Going to Win." Blank...nothing before the statement or after it...
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witchhazl Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
87. Paging Dan Rather. . .
We need to be very very skeptical about this. Read this discussion -- we definitely look like a bunch of loonies This is just EXACTLY what they want. They're dangling that bait in front of us, just like they did to Rather.

Someone posted -- I wish I knew where so I could link it -- just yesterday -- a list of what the opposition would do to beat us. This is right there on the list. They can totally discredit us with a story like this unless we KNOW.

Take a page out of Kerry's book on this. This is too important and too risky to play with. Sure we want it to be true, but we can't afford to be wrong. Take it real real slow. If we go around talking this up to people, we will lose support and credibility even with sympathetic people. Way fast.
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. I say we drop it. And if the MSM picks it up then we know it's a plant.
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #87
90. Agreed
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 07:34 AM by Woo
I've posted like 5 times in this thread tonight-- for some reason it holds a unique fascination to me --

But I agree -- I think we'll just have to see how this is being handled -- it shouldn't be moved beyond the scope of discussion on its merits --(i.e. folks shouldn't start running around and calling the media telling them juvenile delinquents hacked into election computers -- and were trained at a FL detention center -- and it all leads to an attorney who is connected to the former SOS in FL and Jeb Bush, who by the way is alledged to be having sex with said juvenile delinquents...) yeah, they'll dispatch padded trucks to pick up every last one of us --

You just have to wait and see -- you can say if it should ever come out, that you knew about it when...

Here's what I do believe whole heartedly

Jeff Fisher is making these claims and it seems thus far that in the area of sanity... he's on the up and up, but who knows... after he lost his race for congress and Kerry lost, maybe he went off the deep end --

I did read an article ... I think it was coincidentally in 'The Nation' a few days ago...I'll look for a link, but it's about something called 'cyberwarfare' -- developed by the CIA -- it might be possible to attack hundreds of computers from a central location simultaneously -- so after reading this... I have honestly started to think about it... but maintain that working with the anomalies and demanding a recount is the best recourse.

Aha... here it is ... probably already posted somewhere...

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041129&s=corn
A Stolen Election -- David Corn, editorial; THE NATION

<snip>
Clear away the rhetoric, and what's mainly left are the odd early exit polls (which did show Kerry's lead in Ohio and Florida declining as Election Day went on and which ended up with the current national Bush-Kerry spread), troubling instances of bad electronic voting, and curious--or possibly curious--trends in Florida. This may be the beginning of a case; it is not a case in itself. Investigative reporter Robert Parry observes, "Theoretically, at least, it is conceivable that sophisticated CIA-style computer hacking--known as 'cyber-warfare'--could have let George W. Bush's campaign transform a three-percentage-point defeat, as measured by exit polls, into an official victory of about the same margin. Whether such a scheme is feasible, however, is another matter, since it would require penetration of hundreds of local computer systems across the country, presumably from a single remote location. The known CIA successes in cyber-war have come from targeting a specific bank account or from shutting down an adversary's computer system, not from altering data simultaneously in a large number of computers."
</snip>
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #90
183. Enjoyed your post, lol's....and thanks for the snip of Corn's article.
I had read his article when it came out and thought he was opening a window of hope a crack..since we were being ignored or laughed at by everyone except Olberman.

Your pulling this "snip" out makes me almost wonder if he's revealing some information to us. A "central computer"..etc.

I've found David Corn to be extremely careful in what he says...moreso since Shrub and that he would even mention CIA and "Centralized Computer" in this article makes me pause that he's saying something significant to his readers (especially his Washington "insider" readers).

Of course it could just be reading this thread which makes me think Corn is revealing a tidbit to us. After reading all this I want to go back to the sanity of an old Robert Ludlum spy novel. :D

Agree...we shouldn't mail this around.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #87
93. I agree - the kids are unlikely "programers" - but much of the other
stuff smells like it is correct.

better to get 100% correct than to go off on 90% correct so media can infer "scandal" of not quite proven - albeit not disproved but this did not help Rather - "evidence" being presented.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #93
104. Here here
Double second that notion. When fishin, all the smelly, weird and colorful things you can use are much too okay. A few tugs and nips is not a reason to pull it in either. Wait till it pulls hard and then start winding. Unless they are really hungry, you mostly only get one chance :kick:
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #93
199. the actual code
From what I have heard professionals say about the Diebold code - is they would have received a "F" from him if he were their professor. So the code has been "talked bad about" in several places. n/t
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neohippie Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #87
100. This stinks of rove
Rather than getting caught in the same kind of net that Dan Rather did with his documentation, my concern is that this story is just too good to be true.

This could have been Rove's plan all along. He knows that some folks won't let the voter fraud story die so why not hand them a big anchor to grab on to and make sure that they take hold and there real fraud story sinks below the surface with the conspiracy theorists never to rise again.


The part of the letter that sounds especially revealing to me is that the method used to conduct the fraud is described as unauditable, It's like the smoking gun that doesn't really exist.


"He told me and showed me that the 1999 email verified that a test run was conducted for Florida only, and was a great success due to hiding any visible audit trail verifying the posting of votes from the felons list. He also told me that the purpose for the casting of votes by felons without leaving an audit trail was the easiest method because they knew that no one would be looking at the list with interest as a possible form of voter fraud. The perpetrators knew that it was going to disenfranchise thousands of voters throughout the state of Florida. When I asked him how that would be accomplished he said that would be done by computer source coding that would appear random to the average person yet it was to create under and over voting and create a bias toward a specific candidate. "


If this story proves to be true we have nothing to lose by letting it go, if it proves to be false and we cling to it, well... anchors away.
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savetheuniverse Donating Member (455 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
99. Sophisticated GERMAN BLOG DISCUSSING THIS IN ENGLISH!!!
here is an American guy on a VERY INTERESTING German blog/online publication. ...You guys might want to be communicating with him / them rather than through me I'm just too retarded to handle "posting business"--language is not going to be a problem here, but this could prove an important "media" outlet -- hard to believe you aren't already hooked up w/him

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/18/18754/1.html
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
101. Background on the schools themselves
and their connection with the BFEE.
http://www.webdiva.org/fox/
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KeireG Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #101
106. This is one of the most frightening things I've seen...
What is being doen to protect Jeff Fisher?? Is he safe and secure, they're going to try and take him out. Also, somebody said it's too sketchy to take mainstream...at what point should the MSM pick it up?
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YellowDoginthehouse Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #101
157. Just from having a long professional history in corrections
I don't have any trouble believing this story at all. This is probably happening exactly as reported.

According to Fisher, this "Straight" facility was holding Blass' son.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
105. Maybe this should be considered when talking about Fisher




HOT!! Florida U.S. House Rep. says he has evidence of hacked voting.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #105
108. I don't get it - is that him?
I'm sorry everyone but this guy sounds like a paranoid schizophrenic.
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neohippie Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #108
114. why do you think that?
Do you find it hard to believe that children are abused in drug treatment centers?

I have met children that have survived such experiences. There are parents out there who become so frustrated with their childrens' behavior that they will have their own children committed into such programs without any understanding of what actually goes on behind the doors of these facilities.

Do you think that kids run away from these facilities because they are happy with their treatment?
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #114
119. I was referring to his letter of complaint above
It doesn't make sense - he confuses the felons' list with the vulnerabilities in the software.

I'm not familiar with the story about the treatment centers - first I've heard of it.
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neohippie Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #119
122. sorry there is confusion here on my end too
I thought that you were talking about the article that linked Jeff Frazier and John Kerry together for being responsible for the release of Dr. Blass's son from the cult like treatment center.

I am not sure how the felon's list ties into the plot, but according to the letter there is documentation to support the claims made.

I still think this whole matter stinks of Karl Rove, it just seems too easy, while we are looking for evidence of voter fraud to put out something like this hoping we will cling to it, and the you later discredit it, sinking the whole voter fraud story.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #108
116. No these are the people Fisher is fighting against
They have ties to the bushs, lots of ties. Read about Mel Semler (Straight)in my link starting at #22 post.

Bad people very bad! :scared:
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #116
121. Agreed! Another whole NEW can of WORMS!
No wonder Jeff Fisher was motivated to run for Congress! I have read about shady characters and child abuse in CIA material. AS other posters have pointed out, they use shady characters so they can debunk them easy (or off with them easy). The hacking story that Jeff Fisher is on to AND the child abuse at these so-called drug re-hab places is all BEYOND THE PALE. Nothing, Nothing, Nothing surprises me anymore. I believe both of these stories, but the Sunday School class at the local Baptist Church would not. I have been asking about the Jeff Fisher story ever since I first heard about it. This is the second time I have seen information come out about it. I do hope and pray that this will see the light of day, and the criminals prosecuted ALL THE WAY UP TO THE TOP OF THE CHAIN !!!!!
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intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
111.  A link that has current news about Straight, Inc.
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momzno1 Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #111
117. this link says Kerry helped release Dr. Blass' son too!
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momzno1 Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #117
118. I thought this was important enough to copy and put at the end of the list
Oh my GOD

Diebold's COO dies in plane crash

NORTH CANTON, Ohio -- Wesley Vance, Diebold's chief operating officer, died over the weekend when the private plane he was piloting crashed southeast of Columbus, Ohio.

Vance, 45, is survived by his wife Melinda and five children, according to a news release.

"We are deeply saddened by this sudden, tragic event. My heartfelt sympathy and prayers, as well as the condolences of the entire Diebold family, go out to Wes' family," said Walden O'Dell, Diebold's chairman, president and chief executive, in the release.

Since joining Diebold less than three years ago, Vance has spearheaded extensive cultural and operational changes throughout Diebold, O'Dell said.

Vance joined Diebold in October 2000 as president of Diebold's North America business unit and was named chief operating officer in 2001. He managed the company's global operations, including research, development, manufacturing, purchasing, human resources, sales and service.

O'Dell is assuming the company's day-to-day, operational responsibilities until a successor is named.

http://www.atmmarketplace.com/marketplace_storefronts_c ...

I'd be worried too if I was the 'whistle-blower'.



This is the DU member formerly known as Delightful.
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MileHiStealth Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #118
134. What's the date on this story ???
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Magic_Cookie Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #134
158. April 28, 2003
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #117
185. Kerry helped release Blass'sSon??? Blass seems very odd, I posted
above on this thread a link to his running for congress....with a picture. :wtf:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #111
120. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
momzno1 Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #120
123. bite me repuke
You cannot stop us. We won't go away.
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neohippie Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #120
124. Joke refers to your own post obviously
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 10:09 AM by neohippie
You are a fool if you think that election reform is a joke. We lost an election in 2000 and people said reload and wait for 2004, our party has moved towards the center and we lost another election, now with even less accountability than the previous one. How is waiting until 2008 going to solve the problem of ELECTILE DYSFUNCTION?

The real joke is that you feel this way and that you feel that posting this kind of nonsense on this board will have any impact on our efforts!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #124
132. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
restorefreedom Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #120
129. welcome, new freeper
my, my, we certainly have had quite an influx lately...

enjoy your stay at DU....

try not to get sucked in, though - us librels are pure evil....

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restorefreedom Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
126. pretty shrewd scam actually...
strip felons of their voting rights so they can be used to create "extra" votes.

Then, if they give you any trouble, they can conveniently suffer a "drug-related" fatality somewhere.

Is anyone else gonna have trouble sleeping (again) tonight?

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momzno1 Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #126
127. you should check out their suicide stats too!
pretty freaky that so many kids are killing themselves...
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #127
130. Just understand Mel Semler (Straight)
and then it's not hard to believe a lot of other things.
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ChrisW Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #130
133. Jeff Fisher?
Jeff Fisher is the football coach of the Tennessee Titans, I did not know he was also a wacko socialist cospirator. :wtf:
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #133
137. You're confused we are talking about this Jeff Fisher


not this one!
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #130
135. Yep...
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 10:59 AM by Woo
I don't have the patience to go through that site -- I'll take your word for it --

This could indeed be a planted story -- someone convinced this Jeff Fisher and he's running with it... but nothing from this Joe Klock, this guy is being accused of a lot -- there's nothing from anyone.

From my perspective the stars are aligning like Fisher says -- Nader, The Greens and Others all of a sudden came out for recounts in NH and Ohio... Al Sharpton is MIA, which is strange in itself ... seeing the number of reports of minority voter suppression, he should have his face all over the tube. In fact... ALL of the democratic activist are quiet. It's strange I tell ya --

One thing, whoever wrote that email can't write -- the story, as incredible as it is...is confusing as all get out -- but the question is... won't a quick check of the voter roles against the purged felons list... tell you something? Is this why blackboxvoting.org is requesting the logs? Along with other FOI goodies like ... I would assume the felon list is open to the public too, right? THink about it folks -- we thought it was pretty slick four years ago when we found out Karen Hughes had obtained the felons list and were purging names from it... some names were people who weren't even felons, they just shared that felons name -- but in the grand scheme of things, how much could this have helped them... how many felons can you depend on to go to the polls and vote? how many people do you think they disenfranchised by purging felons that shared their name? 50, 100... the answer is not enough to make much a difference. So why would they purge those names?

Sorry, I know many people here are cringing at people even entertaining the thought of believing this story..yes, I kind of believe it, I speak for myself, but beyond that I believe without a shadow of a doubt a whole bunch of cheatin went on, no matter how it happened... this story is just too juicy to resist, I'll shut up now.
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shelley806 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #126
214. Yes, and the weird thing about it is that in 2000 they did just the
reverse, or so it would seem. In 2000 voters from felons lists were purged...and maybe in 2004 added. Katherine Harris's connection to DBT (Database Technolgies) and Klock, her attorney in the Florida recount case, and now the attorney for this ?goofball Blass? ...someone needs to connect the dots, here. I did Google searches on many combinations, including 'Katherine Harris + purged voters,' 'Database Technologies + Katherine Harris,' 'Database Technologies + Diebold,' and 'Sembler+ Katherine Harris+ Klock.'

Who else is concerned about the "coincidental" Klock's representation of Harris and now Blass?

"strip felons of their voting rights so they can be used to create "extra" votes." Your quote

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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
136. Sembler has given hundreds of thousands
of dollars to the bush family. http://www.wesfager.com/people/straight-officials/board...

"Sembler served as Finance Chairman for the Republican National Committee from 1997 to 2000. He also served as Florida's National Committeeman to the Republican National Committee after his election in 1994 until 2000. Prior to his appointment as Ambassador to Italy, Sembler was the Honorary Chairman of the Republican Jewish Coalition and Chairman of the Drug Free America Foundation, and served on the boards of the International Council of Shopping Centers, the Florida Governor's Mansion Foundation, and the Florida Holocaust Museum, and was a resident member of the Florida Council of 100, a business advisory group to the Governor of Florida."

http://sembler.com/MelSembler.php

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yourout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #136
139. kick
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Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
145. BEWARE! Long time/reputable DU members beware!
It sure seems like an awful lot of new posters are talking up this story - and the suspicious part of me wonders why.

No doubt DU has freepers cloaked as legitimate members

No doubt, ever since the "DU under attack" thread which linked to HundredPercenter and a letter written to Homeland Security about DU, even more freepers have arrived to cause mischief.

WE NEED TO CONTINUE OUR EFFORTS TO EXPOSE VOTING FRAUD WITH HARD FACTS AND ANALYSISES, NOT STRANGE STUFF THAT WILL DISCREDIT OUR ATTEMPTS RIGHT NOW TO GET RECOUNTS, ETC.

So beware - I have no idea if there is anything good here in this thread, and I refuse to touch it with a 10-foot pole, because latching on to it could aid those who are trying to discredit our legitimate concerns, and attempts to force action against cheating voting machine companies and last week's election fraud.

And for those who wish to imply something about me, a quick glance at the threads below will shut their ass up quick.

John

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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momzno1 Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #145
146. the straight website has a message board for former students
I have been looking at it to see if there is anything good. Lots of confirmation of Sempler being in bed with the Bush. I don't know if it is worth it to scour the site for clues but here it is

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=7
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #145
147. I agree with you - I think they are trying to "Dan Rather" us
The letter in the first post makes absolutely no sense. There are too many new posters here talking it up. This is an effort to discredit DU.
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #147
151. If you are referring to
BamaBecky or Jsamuel you couldn't be more wrong.
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momzno1 Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #147
153. I am not talking it up at all
I have no idea what it means. I have heard the Jeff Fisher rumor on the yahoogroup message boards for the last week or so, but I had no idea that the Bush connection with this school was so strong. In any case, it is strange, and while we don't want to end up looking like Dan Rather, anyone who wants to look for connections should. Just don't push it with the media.
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #147
159. Touche
I ask that you look at the convergence of media here -- look at the email by Fisher posted on his website-- what you have heard in the mainstream media... Randi Rhodes -- Keith Olbermann, etc, etc... regarding Nader and other parties -- look at the movements of blackboxvoting.org by Bev Harris, who seems to be very well respected on this site -- and you're going to begin to connect the dots that all of this action is tied to this guy Fisher -- it's happening before your eyes --

Is the actual story true, who knows, but call me crazy... or a newbie who's trying to lure you into the lions den -- but with the emergence of all these characters this has finally started to make sense in some respects, whether the allegations are true or not -- everything we have going thus far -- the NH recounts... the possibility for a recount in Ohio -- the fraud alerts -- and countless other things all stem from this guy Jeff Fisher and his wacky story... and that's really my only point here, not to convince anyone of anything... I don't want people to think I'm trying to lead anyone, because I posted a ton on this thread --

I'm a screenwriter and this is exciting stuff to me -- the kind of story you would have a hard time making up...

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #147
160. Why would Randi Rhodes and Mike Malloy
give credibility to Fisher and discuss him on the air?
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #160
161. I'll look into it some more
But the letter in the first post makes no sense at all. Does it make sense to you?
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #161
166. I THINK...
Although, muddled and written very badly --

He's saying that the Republicans purged all the felons from the voter roles in 2000 -- which we know for a fact is true and if you think about that in relationship to this story, it seems a lot more beneficial in this instance than kicking a few people off the roles that have the same name as the felon, which was the assertion Michael Moore made <I believe> in his book.

Then using software/hardware?? they added the felons back to the voter roles creating thousands of dummy voters --

They also put in source code that would randomly cause(someone correct me if I'm wrong, I've read this like 20 times to get this out of it) ordinarily good votes to register under or over votes -- without a hand recount, they are labeled spoiled and never counted.

It's deep deep stuff -- the gravity of this if it's true -- unbelieveable.
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #145
149. You may be right about the freepers lurking around
causing the mischief. I do take exception to the charge personally.
I voted for Clinton both times, Gore and for Kerry. So be careful with your accusations. I know we are all scared that Rove will set us up. A lot of this information about this school was known BEFORE the election. Just relax and let us all investigate this with out calling us names, OK? Or you just might run off some really good people!!
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momzno1 Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #149
154. agreed 100%
I think there are lots of new people here because the outrage over what what happened nov. 2nd and I am one of them.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #154
254. Welcome to DU, momzno1! Enjoy the adventure and discourse
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 10:32 AM by merh
but be warned, it is very addicting. :hi:

If you can, donate what you can to DU and get a star, the advantages to being a donor are tremendous. You can review your posts without having to review the entire thread, you can use the search function and let me tell you there have been some tremendous threads written here on a wide variety of things.

Welcome :hi:
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #149
155. momzno1 BamaBecky I am very sorry
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 01:14 PM by seemslikeadream
please that was only one persons opinion. I welcome you both thanks for being here.

:hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #145
152. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #152
242. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #242
248. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #248
249. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bozos for Bush Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #248
250. Voluntarily deleted
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 09:06 AM by Bozos for Bush
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #145
164. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #145
205. I certainly understand your
caution. I am an administrator at a predominantly liberal political forum and have been for about a year. We have problems with conservative trolls as well. If you would like to check me out I'll be glad to provide a link.

I have some questions about this story....it seems to me it is a VERY drastic move on Fisher's part. The question is why is he doing it? There are any number of possibilities to that question. One being he is just nuts. The people he is taking on are powerful people, so maybe Fisher is nuts and has a death wish. Or maybe he thinks going public is a way to protect himself. Bring it all out in the open and if something happens to him a finger will be pointed at the principals involved. OR maybe it is in fact a Dan Rather type of setup.

I agree that caution in spreading this around is warranted. It reads rather like a John Grisham novel.

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TheNonPanderer Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
156. LOOK at his site
Anyone could hack this to make it look credible.

There is no security on this site hardly,right?

I say Hold off until I hear Jeff Fisher on the radio.

Sorry but Rovians have me skeptical of EMAIL and LETTERS



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a new day Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
162. Could someone help me out here?
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 01:40 PM by a new day
As has been pointed out here before, why the cloak and dagger routine? Mr. xxxxxxx reportedly fears for his and his family's lives, this information being so explosive. Yet, it is revealed that:

"Mr. xxxxxx informed me that he was hired to secure their Internet and Intranet system. During this time of securing the system he became aware of pertinent information that was not erased from the system regarding the production and development of computerized manipulation procedures to use on a national level for the 2000 general election."

and

"In August, Dr. Blass informed me that he knew that xxxxx had knowledge of how the coding was being distributed throughout the United States due to xxxx being the MIS Director at Baypoint School."

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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #162
179. So true!
:crazy:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
165. Holy CRAP! So they are adding felons names to the * column
:wow:

I am so thankful this is coming out, we have GOT to blast this to the media. I don't care if they want to listen it needs to be investigated!
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
169. This Jeff Fisher is hilarious, check out his letter to Katie Couric!
http://www.iammagginkat.com/jeff_fisher_for_congress.ht...

It is so fucking funny! He must be a DU'er.
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freeplessinseattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #169
177. omg, I love it! "..reporters and journalists, which don't include you or M
Matt, you are entertainment hosts"

love it, major burn! take those self-important schills down a notch or two!
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #169
211. I Hope She Read That Letter, It was GREAT and TRUE (eom)
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YellowDoginthehouse Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #169
244. I wish it were funny
Too much truth there to be comedy.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #169
245. Wow he's pretty angry
and into telling it like it is.

Must be a scorpio.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
170. Jsamuel thanks for posting this. THIS OLDTIME DU-ER JUST BLASTED
this to the media.

:hi:

Don't let the BS get you down, everyone gets accused of freeping at one time or another.

Keep posting your interesting information ... were all adults and can make up our own minds.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #170
188. Thanks!
Yeah, I know.

The same freeper argument could be made about the posters telling us not to talk about this story at all...
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
175. I also just sen this to John Conyers and the House Committee on the
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 02:34 PM by mzmolly
Judiciary "dems" and the GAO = "General Accounting Office"

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KeireG Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #175
180. Woo may be right
Notice BBV said it was awaiting statistical analysis on the suspicious results, then it comes out and announces it is doing FRAUD AUDITS. They are being very careful about what they release on the site, Conyers was very guarded in his appearance on Countdown, and Olbermann did mention Fisher going to the FBI, BUT NOT BY NAME. I believe that Fisher's evidence is the smoking gun that everyone is guarding, and IF 60 minutes is in fact investigating, then this will be the greatest story break in recent history.
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lamp_shade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
181. BOY.. Do I smell plants.
Repeat... BOY, do I smell plants.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #181
190. Are you smelling yourself?
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lamp_shade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #190
193. Funny
Funny, indeed, that YOU would respond. Hmmm
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #190
194. Hi Jsamuel!
These guys/gals are really suspicious aren't they. Some are real friendly and welcome us warmly. Some....well...treat us like we are Karl Rove incarnate! :yourock:
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #194
195. Yeah and I love that the guy with 17 posts treats us like we are freepers
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West Coast Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #195
198. Well, you did start a thread earlier about Palm Beach County...
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 03:38 PM by West Coast Democrat
in which you "accidentally" flipped the numbers. So why do you find it so hard to imagine that some are skeptical of you?
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #181
191. Most of us came from JK/JE and now the CSCG forum
come on over and check us out if your that SCARED of us. We welcome new comers over there. We will be glad to have you! :scared: :hi:
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #191
200. What's the CSCG Forum and where were you before the K/E Forum?
Just asking...And Welcome to DU! :hi:
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #200
208. CSCG is Common Sense Common Ground, after the JK/JE ....
closed down. We all moved over to the CSCG. We lost some folks. It's just not as "active" as it was prior to the election. I joined the JK/JE in August. Prior to that I had never been in a chat room in my life. I'm a Social Worker, MSW. Voted for Clinton twice, Gore, and now Kerry. I have been researching like crazy ever since I discovered the PNAC and all that they have been up to since 1983. I have alienated Republican family and friends with my "obsession" as they call it. I'm also following the 9/11 situation with the help of Karl Schwarz . His research is ASTOUNDING! This vote fraud is just the latest in a long string of "Bush family" events. The New World Order stuff scares the begebbies out of me. Does anybody out there know how to research Brady Bonds that matured on 9/12/01? That's a key piece of information I'm told.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #208
233. Thanks...I will go over and check it out...again "Welcome to DU." (eom)
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #208
257. You should consider donating whatever amount you can
to DU so that you get a star and can used the My Post function (to review your posts without having to review the entire thread) amd the search function. There have been some tremendous threads written here about the New World Order, the 9/11 MIHOP or LIHOP, the Plame outing, et cetera.

Welcome again! :hi:
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chomskysright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
187. Here is Zogby FL data (OH too)
I Smell a Ra http://www.zogby.com/soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=10398


I smell a rat. .....

I work with statistics and polling data every day. Something rubbed me the wrong way. I checked the exit polls for Florida--all wrong. CNN's results indicated a Kerry win: turnout matched voter registration, and independents had broken 59% to 41% for Kerry.

Polling is an imprecise science. Yet its very imprecision is itself quantifiable and follows regular patterns. Differences between actual results and those expected from polling data must be explainable by identifiable factors if the polling sample is robust enough. With almost 3.000 respondents in Florida alone, the CNN poll sample was pretty robust.

The first signs of the rat were identified by Kathy Dopp, who conducted a simple analysis of voter registrations by party in Florida and compared them to presidential vote results. Basically she multiplied the total votes cast in a county by the percentage of voters registered Republican: this gave an expected Republican vote. She then compared this to the actual result.

Her analysis is startling. Certain counties voted for Bush far in excess of what one would expect based on the share of Republican registrations in that county. They key phrase is "certain counties"--there is extraordinary variance between individual counties. Most counties fall more or less in line with what one would expect based on the share of Republican registrations, but some differ wildly.

How to explain this incredible variance? Dopp found one over-riding factor: whether the county used electronic touch-screen voting, or paper ballots which were optically scanned into a computer. All of those with touch-screen voting had results relatively in line with her expected results, while all of those with extreme variance were in counties with optical scanning.

The intimation, clearly, is fraud. Ballots are scanned; results are fed into precinct computers; these are sent to a county-wide database, whose results are fed into the statewide electoral totals. At any point after physical ballots become databases, the system is vulnerable to external hackers.

It seemed too easy, and Dopp's method seemed simplistic. I re-ran the results using CNN's exit polling data. In each county, I took the number of registrations and assigned correctional factors based on the CNN poll to predict turnout among Republicans, Democrats, and independents. I then used the vote shares from the polls to predict a likely number of Republican votes per county. I compared this expected' Republican vote to the actual Republican vote.

The results are shocking. Overall, Bush received 2% fewer votes in counties with electronic touch-screen voting than expected. In counties with optical scanning, he received 16% more. This 16% would not be strange if it were spread across counties more or less evenly. It is not. In 11 different counties, the actual' Bush vote was at least twice higher than the expected vote. 13 counties had Bush vote tallies 50--100% higher than expected. In one county where 88% of voters are registered Democrats, Bush got nearly two thirds of the vote--three times more than predicted by my model.

Again, polling can be wrong. It is difficult to believe it can be that wrong. Fortunately, however, we can test how wrong it would have to be to give the actual' result.

I tested two alternative scenarios to see how wrong CNN would have to have been to explain the election result. In the first, I assumed they had been wildly off the mark in the turnout figures--i.e. far more Republicans and independents had come out than Democrats. In the second I assumed the voting shares were completely wrong, and that the Republicans had been able to massively poach voters from the Democrat base.

In the first scenario, I assumed 90% of Republicans and independents voted, and the remaining ballots were cast by Democrats. This explains the result in counties with optical scanning to within 5%. However, in this scenario Democratic turnout would have been only 51% in the optical scanning counties--barely exceeding half of Republican turnout. It also does not solve the enormous problems in individual counties. 7 counties in this scenario still have actual vote tallies for Bush that are at least 100% higher than predicted by the model--an extremely unlikely result.

In the second scenario I assumed that Bush had actually got 100% of the vote from Republicans and 50% from independents (versus CNN polling results which were 93% and 41% respectively). If this gave enough votes for Bush to explain the county's results, I left the amount of Democratic registered voters ballots cast for Bush as they were predicted by CNN (14% voted for Bush). If this did not explain the result, I calculated how many Democrats would have to vote for Bush.

In 41 of 52 counties, this did not explain the result and Bush must have gotten more than CNN's predicted 14% of Democratic ballots--not an unreasonable assumption by itself. However, in 21 counties more than 50% of Democratic votes would have to have defected to Bush to account for the county result--in four counties, at least 70% would have been required. These results are absurdly unlikely.

The second rat

A previously undiscovered species of rat, Republicanus cuyahogus, has been found in Ohio. Before the election, I wrote snide letters to a state legislator for Cuyahoga county who, according to media reports, was preparing an army of enforcers to keep suspect' (read: minority) voters away from the polls. One of his assistants wrote me back very pleasant mails to the effect that they had no intention of trying to suppress voter turnout, and in fact only wanted to encourage people to vote.

They did their job too well. According to the official statistics for Cuyahoga county, a number of precincts had voter turnout well above the national average: in fact, turnout was well over 100% of registered voters, and in several cases well above the total number of people who have lived in the precinct in the last century or so.

In 30 precincts, more ballots were cast than voters were registered in the county. According to county regulations, voters must cast their ballot in the precinct in which they are registered. Yet in these thirty precincts, nearly 100.000 more people voted than are registered to vote -- this out of a total of 251.946 registrations. These are not marginal differences--this is a 39% over-vote. In some precincts the over-vote was well over 100%. One precinct with 558 registered voters cast nearly 9,000 ballots. As one astute observer noted, it's the ballot-box equivalent of Jesus' miracle of the fishes. Bush being such a man of God, perhaps we should not be surprised.

What to do?

This is not an idle statistical exercise. Either the raw data from two critical battleground states is completely erroneous, or something has gone horribly awry in our electoral system--again. Like many Americans, I was dissatisfied with and suspicious of the way the Florida recount was resolved in 2000. But at the same time, I was convinced of one thing: we must let the system work, and accept its result, no matter how unjust it might appear.

With this acceptance, we placed our implicit faith in the Bush Administration that it would not abuse its position: that it would recognize its fragile mandate for what it was, respect the will of the majority of people who voted against them, and move to build consensus wherever possible and effect change cautiously when needed. Above all, we believed that both Democrats and Republicans would recognize the over-riding importance of revitalizing the integrity of the electoral system and healing the bruised faith of both constituencies.

This faith has been shattered. Bush has not led the nation to unity, but ruled through fear and division. Dishonesty and deceit in areas critical to the public interest have been the hallmark of his Administration. I state this not to throw gratuitous insults, but to place the Florida and Ohio electoral results in their proper context. For the GOP to claim now that we must take anything on faith, let alone astonishingly suspicious results in a hard-fought and extraordinarily bitter election, is pure fantasy. It does not even merit discussion.

The facts as I see them now defy all logical explanations save one--massive and systematic vote fraud. We cannot accept the result of the 2004 presidential election as legitimate until these discrepancies are rigorously and completely explained. From the Valerie Plame case to the horrors of Abu Ghraib, George Bush has been reluctant to seek answers and assign accountability when it does not suit his purposes. But this is one time when no American should accept not getting a straight answer. Until then, George Bush is still, and will remain, the Accidental President' of 2000. One of his many enduring and shameful legacies will be that of seizing power through two illegitimate elections conducted on his brother's watch, and engineering a fundamental corruption at the very heart of the greatest democracy the world has known. We must not permit this to happen again.
(11/12/2004)
- By Colin Shea, The Freezer Box

BACK TO ZOGBY IN THE MEDIA


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milkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #187
201. This is NOT from Zogby. It is simply on Zogby's site because the
article refers to Zogby. He has a section called "Zogby in the News" where he posts copies of articles that mention Zogby. The proper author and web site is at the bottom of the article.

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shelley806 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #187
234. Thanks chomskysright...truthisall has this posted on the front page
now. Welcome to DU!
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
196. Just to reinterate, I don't feel comfortable sending this to the media yet
I have never said otherwise and it is up this forum to come to a conclusion. I say wait for more info. People will disagree.
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #196
202. You know what Jsamuel?
I have been asking questions about this Jeff Fisher thing ever since he called in the FBI. After that, things about him went silent - till your post. Maybe that means that the Feds are all over it? At least we can hope thats true. I wish somebody could contact Charles Figley at FSU to see if he is willing to talk - provided he is this Charles Figley.
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liam97 Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #202
209. The page link of JF
may not be authentice.Read the letter to Senator Bowles- it has quotes from Stalin and Ignatzmouse's DU analysis - no one would cite these things in an official letter. This may well be a trap, although Fisher may be working on something real we don't know.
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neohippie Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #202
210. I am a Seminole
I have friends at FSU and in the Florida Department of Juvenile Justice. Let me know if I can help you get anything done.
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #210
212. What I would like to know....
Is Figley friends with Jeff Fisher?
Is this the Charles Figley that enlisted the help of John Kerry to secure the release of Dr Blass's son?
How hot on the trail are the feds into all of this?
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neohippie Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #212
213. I don't know Charles Figley
I will start asking some questions.

I have a friend who used to be a number cruncher for the Department of Juvenile Justice, I am trying to contact her now. I know she is a Democrat and she might not be aware of the ties to the detention center or any investigation, but she is a great place to start.
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #213
216. Dr Charles Figley is a well known FSU professor who has
conducted extensive research in trauma, child abuse. He has books out on Amazon.com. When I was at FSU he was also known for his work in PTSD. That's why it makes sense to me that Dr. Figley would know all about these so-called drug rehab places owned and operated by Republican Ambassador Sembler.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #216
217. Thanks BamaBecky for being here
Sorry for the rudeness of a few.

:hi:
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #196
218. Related topic on Fisher
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #196
219. The media are grown ups. I sent it, they can investigate.
We don't have the resources they do right? They can send people all over the US to interview Fisher and his sources.

:hi:

You aren't vouching for this information, neither am I. But, I trust the media will do some digging before running with it anyhow.

Fisher makes the claim on his website, WE are not making this claim HE is.

So, don't sweat it jsamuel. ;)
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #219
220. Good point!
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milkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #196
222. Too late. You already sent it to the media. Do you think this is a
private board?

DU has been mentioned in the media several times lately, and even before the election some of the mainstream media would undoubtedly come check out DU. They will use a few postings that seem as if they are from the "lunatic fringe" to discredit all the excellent work and discussions that go on here. There are other boards that pass along wild, unsubstantiated gossip as being "proof" of something. DU has, for the most part, not been one of those boards. That does not mean we can't take seemingly extreme positions--but they should be backed up by evidence and sound reasoning.

A couple of DUer's provide excellent examples. DUer Paul Thompson soon after 9/11 began a site where he kept a detailed timeline of the events surrounding that day. His timeline became so thorough, and credible as a source of information, that it is universally regarded as the best reference for those events and the media coverage of them. A couple of months ago, his timeline was published by Random House. http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp...

Thompson made one decision early on when compiling his timeline that made it powerful and credible--he decided to only include mainstream media sources. While he states that he considered much of the alternative media very credible, he knew his work would not be viewed in the same light; some would dismiss it as the rantings of wacko leftwingers.

In this thread, I have seen references to numerous web sites that I have never heard of before. That doesn't mean they aren't credible, but the Internet contains every lunatic ranting imaginable (for example, I've seen a site that's convinced the U.S. has military bases on the dark side of the moon). I would hate to see DU become a dumping ground for this kind of stuff.

Another DUer, Bev Harris, is currently at the forefront in the battle against unverifiable electronic voting and election fraud. She is collecting evidence, building her case, and will present it publicly at the appropriate time. And when she does, you can be sure that the charges she makes will be backed up with solid evidence.
http://www.blackboxvoting.org /
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I view everything I read or hear with a strong dose of skepticism, whether it comes from the right or the left. Whether a journalist, politician, blogger, or poster, credibility is something that must be earned over a period of time. In my time here at DU, there are many people who I have learned to trust and respect. To me, these anonymous people have earned their credibility, and I value what they say much more than the highly-paid so-called experts in the mainstream media.

Regarding the bizarre Fisher letter--if I had come across the Fisher letter on his web site and it had not yet been posted here at DU, I would have posted it. After all, he was a Democratic candidate for Congress. I would have made sure to post it with a lot of skepticism.

Fisher makes wild allegations while providing no evidence other than he heard it from an anonymous person, and it is nearly incoherent at times. And why is Fisher posting this private letter to Nader on his web site? If he has the evidence he says he does, and he has the people involved that he says he does, why does he feel compelled to scream about it on his site? And why does he not give the name of his source for all this because the person fears for his life, but then Fisher proceeds to give a detailed job description of the person that would certainly out him to the alleged bad guys. And why does Fisher say if you don't believe me, give Russell Baker a call...and then he posts Baker's personal cell phone number for the whole world to see! What is up with that?

Perhaps my doubts about Fisher may be proved wrong, but I think it's much more likely that if we are going to nail the repugs with election fraud, it is more likely to come from the work of Bev Harris than from Jeff Fisher.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #222
223. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
milkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #223
226. Nice reply. Yes, it's a discussion board, but you didn't discuss anything
I said. You ask if I can read, but that was because you misread my post. The only time I referenced your original post on this thread, I agreed with you in posting the letter from Fisher. I said I also would have posted it, and when I did I would express my skepticism. Nowhere did I say that you had not done so.

Also, my original post in this thread (reply #14 at 2:56 am est) was in response to your original unedited post, in which you gave no source or link for this bizarre letter. Because you later showed it came from Fisher's site, and not just something anonymously bouncing around the Internet, I changed my thinking on this and agreed it should be posted.

In fact, in my latest post the only time I pointedly disagree with you is your statement that you don't think we should release this to the media yet. I say it's too late, the media is already here (and some are DU members). Anything posted at DU has already been released.

Feel free to disagree with anything I have said, in this reply or any other. Please give your reasoning for doing so.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #226
227. There is a difference between making information available to people and..
telling them you agree with the information presented. We can present all sorts of information here. I left it up to the people of this forum to decide whether they believe it or not. I did not feel comfortable advocating anything in the letter and I still don't, but that doesn't mean that no one should be able to make up their own minds about it.

I would never want my wife to have an abortion but that doesn't mean I would want to make any law saying no one could or make a law saying that no one could talk about it.
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #227
229. The Monsters are Due on Maple Street
You folks are turning on each other --
This is already in the news... you can go to every blog and find this story, it's been reported on the TV and radio -- undoubtedly it has crept out to the media in many more places than this one -- so why are people pointing fingers and asking people who they are and where they come from... it's absolutely ridiculous -- from what I can see, with the exception of one or two post, I do believe you're fighting with your allies -- I wonder which looks worse if your concern is keeping up appearances, discussing one out in left field story or pointing fingers of accusation and paranoia.



'THe tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. They are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices - to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejudices can kill and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all it own..." -Serling
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #229
231. I have no problem with him, I just wish he would leave me alone
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
232. You know what?
Perhaps all the other allegations of fraud being trumped up as conspiracy theories is an attempt to preeptively discredit this story. Now that people on DU blasted all the hyperbolic claims of fraud involving Florida's Dixiecrat counties and such, no one wants to listen to us anymore when we blast this seemingly real claim about Fisher. If the Florida counties story didn't seem like a conspiracy theory, than this certainly will.

Maybe Rove and his minions started the Florida Dixiecrat story to completely take the ball out of our hands. Who knows?

I still have yet to hear from someone who knows Fisher personally and can vouch for his sanity and reliability. And I hope he is safe. Whether he is right or not with these fraud claims, it would be advisable for him to watch his back.

This whole thing is so wierd, with BBV and Fisher. People seem convinced they have evidence of fraud. But I never seem to see anything other than funny statistics and speculation. If there is fraud, I keep having this uneasy fear that somehow these investigtions will never go through, like the Kennedy assasination.

It's just wierd how everyone is connected in this. GWBush, Jeb, Katherine Harris again, this lawyer Klock, Kerry helped that guy's son get out of juvi...isn't Bev Harris Bush's distant cousin, too?

If even half of this is real, it will be the story of the century.
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #232
235. Follow this if you want but I think we're going to win this with MATH.
Even the nuttiest of the Evangelicals still understands that one Bible plus one Bible makes two Bibles.

We need to catch up to Rove before we can get five steps ahead of him. Isn't there a line in some bad movie that goes something like, "Smarts can only get you so far and luck runs out"-? WWKRD?
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yourout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #235
237. As I posted earlier....Phone records will tell the tale..
If the tabulators were hacked via modem the phone records will have entrys that are wiped from the audit logs. With luck the perps phone number will be in the records.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #237
238. Very good point, especially with war dialing... that will be evident...
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #238
239. I was told that phones don't have logs anymore...it's all digital...????
At least in our building there are no more boxes in the basement that the phone company has to monitor. We are Digital with Verizon...they don't keep records...

It's something to think about...and put in the hopper. What kind of phone systems to the Election Centers have. If they are old buildings maybe analog...but maybe not. When phone companies were split up here in NC there are "territories" one can't go beyond.
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ORprogressive Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
240. I hope there is truth in this,,,,
..but ponder this for a moment. They duped almost everyone, but those of us who are paying attention are starting to make some noise as well as some progress. They WILL try to discredit this movement. If you put on your asshole-who-helped-steal-an-election hat, you would take a page out of their playbook and have an anonymous source float a bogus story to someone capable of pushing it to the forefront. Make sure the media covers it well, and then unleash the debunking bomb. I could be wrong, but isn't that what happened to Rather?

Know what smells funny to me? Schools of young hackers across the country working on this for years. Don't we already know there is no security in these systems? I read earlier this year that they were using Microsoft Access for the database. You wouldn't need schools of hackers to accomplish what the did. Furthermore, if it was THAT well orchestrated, their work should not have been as obvious as it is. The parties who pulled this off were pretty sloppy, but if you control the media, that doesn't really matter.

I'm not trying to take the wind out of anyone's sails, but we have to be careful and not walk into a set up.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #240
241. yes and no
You are right that it would be EZ to get to the systems. The hard part is changing the numbers so that they look right and you candidate still wins, without leaving a trace. That could require many people working on gathering election information from 2000 and using that in computer code to predict what each county "should give" to Bush to have him win down to each machine and precinct. It could get complicated when you take it down to that level.

That being said, I still have no idea if this is true or not.
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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:59 AM
Response to Original message
247. Ok I think I understand but not exactly sure.
But this is particularly weird to me because I worked on the campaign. I had a voter list from an outside organization (not Kerry camp) I had so many felons on my list that had NEW VOTER next to their name.

How do I know? Well, there was a large number of people at the same address and before I began to canvass by foot, I goggled it and came up with "Missouri Sex Offenders". No, I'm not kidding. I talked to the people at the facility and they said they can't vote. They are felons on parole. I could not get anyone to discuss this with me. No one would touch it. And there 3 pages of names. And this is just one small precinct. WoW.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
251. Fisher's story is much bigger than fraud IMO.
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 09:37 AM by Carl Brennan
DU has had numerous discussions about child abuse,sex rings and the REpugs involved in them. BCCI's head Abedi commented once that he could get a boy or a girl for his clients easily.

Somebody needs to investigate that school.


http://www.konformist.com/2001/pedophocracy2.htm
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #251
255. $11,545,000 for abuse
Medvin & Elberg get past statute of limitations
Insurers & licensers of newage* health care programs beware!story
*newage, one word rendition of New Age. It rhymes with sewage


Reverend Doctor Miller Newton has maintained his residence in Maidera Beach, Florida since leaving Straight. He once ran unsuccessfully for mayor. Now calling himself Father Cassian, he is being reported on by an organization that monitors abusive priests.

Newton settles with Lulu Corter for $6.5 million just before case was to go to jury dateline Newark, New Jersey July 8, 2003. This story will break your heart. After Dr. Newton fled Florida for abusing kids at Straight (though he has maintained his Maidera Beach residence all these years, even running unsuccessfully for mayor) he opened up his own second-generation Straight in New Jersey called KIDS of Bergen County. In 1989 after CBS' Meredith Vieira and West 57th Street did a story exposing the abuse at KIDS, and after Newark Judge Edith Klinger published a study recommending suspending KIDS license until certain problems had been fixed, Newton fled to neighboring Hudson County and changed the name to KIDS of North Jersey. In 1993 Secaucus Judge Emil DelBaglivo convicted three KIDS counselors for assaulting a client and recommended that someone look at Newton. In 1996 Newton settled with the federal government for $45,000 in return for not being prosecuted for 254 counts of insurance fraud. In 1999 another KIDS counselor was convicted for assault. Also in 1999 Dr. Newton settled with former client Rebecca Erlich for $4.5 million.

But nothing was ever done. In fact for 10 years Republican Governor Christie Whitman ignored Judge Klinger, Judge DelBaglivo, the newspaper and television reports. For 10 years Len Fisher, Governor Whitman's Commissioner of Health and Human Services, granted Dr. Newton a special certificate to operate.

Throughout all this time there sat a client in KIDS named Lulu Corter. Nobody remembers anymore what she went in for. But it was not drug addiction. Eventually Newton convinced her she had a sexual addiction. He forbade her to touch herself down there. They watched her toileting to make sure she did not touch herself. She was allowed but three wipes afterwards and was painfully restrained if she used four. They use to sing a song to Lulu. As best she can remember it went:

Lulu is here to stay
because she's in a blue chair
for seven years now
and she will rot more and more
till she makes a bigger change.

Lulu Corter went to Dr. Newton for help in 1984. She finally escaped 13 years later; totally destroyed. She had been on First Phase for almost five years. Lulu Corter's trial
more
http://thestraights.com/articles/newton-settles.htm



The Rebecca Erlich Story: the first printed book about theStraights
.
In 1999 Straight's former national clinical director Dr. Miller Newton and his team of psychiatrists settled with a former client named Rebecca Ehrlich for $4.5 million for the abuses she sustained at the Straight-legacy program Kids of North Jersey. Now Rebecca's mother Harryet has teamed with Rebecca's consulting psychiatrist Dr. Lewis Opler to publish Rebecca's medical nightmare. The book is Resurrection and Redemption: Overcoming Mental Illness and Regaining Dignity. The book is a well written account of the tragedy of a misdiagnosed little girl being treated in a quack medical facility.
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #255
259. that's terrifying
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #259
260. THE BLUE CHAIR
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #255
262. What a nightmare!
Why aren't these people in jail?
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #251
261. Here is the link to BCCI head Abedi
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/business/articles/ti ...

Bank officals had 'talked elliptically about special services to rich clients' from the BCCI boss. 'If you wanted little boys, you got it, if you wanted little girls you got it, money in suitcases or seats at the opera.'

Where are they getting these children from?

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EMP Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
252. kick
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stirringstill Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
258. Reality-based or Fiction

Perhaps Fisher's communications are nothing more than a distraction or some form of disinformation but the fragments are intriguing.

Mel Sembler was Bush I's ambassador to Australia, Bush II's ambassador to Italy, and a formar RNC finance chair. He also owns the Straight Inc run program Growing Together. Piotr Blass's son was in this allegedly abusive treatment program and only released with the help of Klock (to hush Blass?), the same lawyer who once represented Katherine Harris. The posting also notes that Sembler funneled money to Baypoint Schools through Klock. Interestingly, in 2003 Pieter Blass was a PROFESSOR of COMPUTER MATHEMATICS at Baypoint School according to the web posted CV. This is the very school that supposedly has a secret department of election engineering. And stranger still, Piotr Blass was a write-in candidate for FLA US Senator in this 2004 election. http://www.vote-smart.org/bio.php?can_id=MFL88959

Alas, Blass wasn't elected, but he claims to know how Bush won. If one could manipulate vote tallies by computer, then to define the magins to avoid over-reaching one would need access a database containing a list of living (and dead), registered (and non-registered) voters, their addresses, a record of their signature and yes, felony status. Accessing such a database would enable one to more safely stuff electric votes or old-fashioned paper ballots, including provisional and/or absentee.

How best to compile/CONTROL such an important and empowering list? According to Greg Pallast in Salon '02, the FLA registered voting list was initially scrubbed of felons by Database Technologies in '98 (a unit of company Choicepoint) under a no-bid $4 million contract. The year prior FLA spent just $5 thousand. Ahhh, those no bid contracts are the best. It seems Choicepoint is like a private sector provider of TIA (total information awareness) with profits of $700+ million last year. For example Choicepoint was given the contract and solemn duty of DNA matching the human remains of the victims of 9-11-01 and it offers the government and business services such as the "Patriot Act" package (not being sarcastic), background checks, and financial record info.

Tinfoil hat on? Check! Another plane crash.
http://www.choicepoint.net/choicepoint/news/feature0425 ...
>snip<
On April 1, 2002. Dan Rocco, a dear friend - and one of the senior statesmen of the ChoicePoint organization - died in the crash of his vintage airplane. Dan, an executive vice president who led ChoicePoint's Property & Casualty Insurance Commercial lines business, embodied the culture we value so strongly here at ChoicePoint. He made good things happen through sheer determination, hard work, and a passionate belief in this organization and its people. All of us miss him, and we're dedicated to carrying on Dan's legacy.
>snip<

It will be interesting to see if the cryptic threads from Jeff Fisher's missives develop into reality-based narrative.
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milkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #258
263. Thanks for providing a well-written and reasoned take on this story.
The choicepoint link isn't working.

I knew of ChoicePoint from their scrubbing of the felon lists, but I had no idea that they were involved in "cleaning up" 9/11 also (I'm a firm believer in LIHOP).
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rockedthevoteinMA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #263
269. What is LIHOP or MIHOP?
(sorry newbie)
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #269
271. Let It Happen On Purpose, Made It Happen On Purpose. nt
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #269
273. rockedthevoteinMA check out the 9/11 room
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 04:51 PM by seemslikeadream
Like this
9/11 Commission: There Must Be 93 Ways To Blow Your Cover
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
:hi:
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milkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #269
275. Referring to U.S. government complicity in 9/11:
LIHOP--Let It Happen On Purpose
MIHOP--Made It Happen On Purpose

A substantial number of people do not buy the official version of the events surrounding 9/11. They think there is a lot of evidence showing that the official version is a coverup, and that, in fact, some of the bush administration and/or the Pentagon were involved in 9/11.

LIHOPers believe our government was not actively involved in 9/11, but they deliberately "looked the other way"--they at least had a general awareness that we would be attacked, and they intentionally did nothing to stop it. They let it happen.

MIHOPers take it further--they believe that parts of our government were involved in the planning and/or execution of the attacks of 9/11. They made it happen.

At first, for many it can be a tough idea to even think about. But to simply accept the official version is to ignore a lot of facts and contradictions. A recent Zogby poll, commissioned by a 9/11 Truth organization, found that 49% of the residents of New York City believe our government was complicit in 9/11 (I'm one of those New Yorkers), and that 41% of the residents of New York State believe likewise.

There are many offshoots of these ideas, some admittedly quite far "out there." A person does not need to agree with all of these ideas to believe in LIHOP/MIHOP. Here at DU there are strong proponents of government complicity, while there also is a substantial number of people here who do not go along with this at all. They believe instead that 9/11 was the result of the gross incompetence of the bush admin (which certainly is a very valid, and reasonable, argument).

LIHOP/MIHOP people point to PNAC's "Rebuilding America's Defenses" paper in 2000 that says that because the U.S. currently is the world's lone superpower, we should use this power to extend our imperial domination of the world (my words, not theirs). A big problem with this, though, is that the public would not go along with it, unless we had a "new Pearl Harbor" (their words) that would rally Americans to war. Invading and conquering Iraq was a centerpiece of this plan. (PNAC is the Project for a New American Century, a bush empire/neocon think tank that included Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, and a host of others).
http://www.newamericancentury.org/publicationsreports.h...

One compelling piece of evidence is that the our nation's defenses seemed to be on stand-down on the morning of 9/11. We have fighter jets ready at all times to take off almost instantly and defend our nation from attack. Yet, strangely, on the morning of 9/11 we did nothing until it was too late.

For myself, the one simple thing I think points to LIHOP (or MIHOP) is that since the end of the Cold War, we have spent probably $5 trillion dollars on our military. On the morning of 9/11, the FAA knew at about 8:20 am that a plane had been hijacked. By the time the first plane hit the tower, we knew three planes had been hijacked, and the one had attacked us. So by 8:46 am our government knew, beyond any doubt, that our nation was under attack by hijackers, and an unknown number more were on the way.

Yet the Pentagon--the headquarters of the most powerful military force the world has ever known--was successfully attacked nearly an hour after we knew beyond any doubt what was going on (9:38 am).

With almost an hour's advance warning, our military could not even protect its' own headquarters from a bunch of horizontal-flying nitwits with boxcutters? I refuse to believe our military could be that incompetent.

9/11 discussions at DU can be found here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

DUer Paul Thompson's authoritative timeline of the events surrounding 9/11 can be found here:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=...

His timeline was recently published as a book.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry...
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rockedthevoteinMA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #275
279. oh okay - thanks so much all three of you
I have some knowledge of PNAC, (they make my skin crawl) and I think most everyone I associate with agrees the gov. knew about 9/11. Thanks so much for the detailed answers - I'll have to check all of this out. :)
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savetheuniverse Donating Member (455 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
265. kick
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savetheuniverse Donating Member (455 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #265
266. kick
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savetheuniverse Donating Member (455 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #265
267. kick
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #267
268. Kick!

This is a very interesting thread. Thank you to everyone who has participated, both with news and skepticism. We need both. Keep up the great work.
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
270. kick
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Justyce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
276. Just went to Jeff Fisher's website
It has a lot of info & links on it -- really good site. http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com /
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JD Lau Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
278. Nader Joins Florida Recount
is the title of the message I received
from another election forum tonight. The message states:

Kevin Zeese, Ralph Nader's media spokesman, officially announced that
Presidential Candidate Ralph Nader will be consulting with Jeff
Fisher and Jan Schneider regarding the investigation of voter fraud
and a statewide recount for the state of Florida. Jan Schneider was
the Democratic candidate for Florida's 13th Congressional District in
2002 and 2004 vs former Florida Secretary of State, Katherine Harris.

Then there are links to congress sites to contact for Fisher.

Since I don't know anything about the other election forum or if the post is valid or not, and since I don't see a thing posted here about Nader getting involved with this in Florida, I am asking...any news on this front?

Sorry, I don't have time to search through all the DU postings, so please excuse if there is something relative that I have missed.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
280. New letter from Fisher's website
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 11:05 PM by jsamuel
http://www.sandovalcounty.com/BureauElection/votingresu...



Attn Beverly Harris Sunday 11-14 2:30 AM
BlackBoxVoting.org
HelpAmericaRecount.org

Re Epicenter of Vote Fraud Scandal, Florida "The Smoking Gun " you've been looking for.

Beverly,

WE BELIEVE WE HAVE THE SMOKING GUN OF THIS VOTER FRAUD SCANDAL AND IT ALL POINTS BACK TO FLORIDA 2000 AND NOW 2004 . WE KNOW WHO DID IT, HOW THEY DID IT AND WHERE IT WAS STARTED FROM.

I IMPLORE YOU WHILE IN FLORIDA TO MEET WITH JEFF FISHER.

SEE www.JeffFisherforCongress.com

You can reach Jeff at 561 889 2165 cell or 561 865 9548.

His assistants are Al Rogers and Ben Roth.

Here's a brief outline

Jeff has specific evidence of a widespread vote fraud perpetrated through a Juvenile Detention / Rehab facility called Bay Point Schools In South Miami, with connections to Mel Sembler and possibly Joe Klock atty to Katherine Harris.

These connections lead directly to Jeb Bush and of course the White House. By using Juvenile Detention & Drug Rehab facilities and under the guise of criminal computer retraining, we believe Sembler has financed a well tested vote fraud scheme to assure his cronies Jeb & George Bush, among others, guaranteed elections.

Specific evidence includes copies of internal memo's and emails as well as testimony of the MIS Director of one Florida facility where much of the hacking was perpetrated. The work was replicated and limited to one location to avoid easy detection.

The MIS Director is currently in hiding. Jeff can reach him.

By internally tampering with Diebold Optical Scanners as well as Diebold Electronic E voting machines, the hacking, ( done from remote locations under the control of Mel Stembler's facilities ( see below ) , votes were altered, switched , deleted or detroyed in numerous Florida, Ohio and New Mexico counties and then switched from John Kerry to George Bush.

It is very likely that other races have been effected as well such as Georgia, Nevada, North Carolina , etc.
WHERE POLL DIVERGENCES WERE NOTED IN RECENT POST ELECTION STUDIES.

Mel Sembler's Drug Rehab and Juvenile Detention Center's are under investigation and are and have been sued for a huge laundry list of extremely abusive behaviors ( see www.thestraights.com or search under www.melsembler.com ) .

The vote fraud system was first tested in 1999. Used in the Florida Presidential Election in 2000. Tested again successfully in Jeb Bush's race against Janet Reno and then Bill Mc Bride and finally in the 2004 Presidential Election. Also Georgia.

The second part of this scheme seems to be that they also cover their tracks by using the names of Felons and others purged falsely onto the Felon voter roles. This I believe allows them to seem to use legitimate numbers by first inflating the roles and them flipping or using them in some places with out drawing to much attention. This also may be why we saw so many overvotes in places where there weren't enough felon votes. This last sentence is my speculation.

The scheme used computers at their facilities, an MIS director who trained juvenile delinquents under custody as well as others to hack into Diebold systems around the country and place software kernels that would raise votes for one candidate while deleting the others.

This would explain both the erratic polls discrepancies reported in especially swing states but also here in North Carolina.

These software fixes are supposed to leave no audit trail. This also would explain the seemingly random gltiches of people voting Kerry and getting Bush on review or the strrange over vote errors. I believe by the seizing of evidence under your FOIA we will be able with the help of experts to discover the audit trail and other evidence of tampering.

Our specific evidence centers around Bay Point School in So Miami as the epicenter facility.

Mel Sembler made his money, hundreds of millions, building Shopping malls. This was not enough as he wants much more power and influence and has been willing to donate millions to the Republican Party over almost 20 years to buy his access and influence.

And now due to his complete disregard for basic civil and human rights ( his abusive facilities are legendary ) he is willing to exploit drug addicted juveniles and others under his companies custody to do his dirty work under threat and penalty of death or semi permanent incarceration. After all who would believe a junkie right ?

Mel has been awarded for his Ranger level contributions to the Republicans and other misdeeds a prime cherry,
the Ambassadorship to Italy by George Bush.

He and his wife have been on Anti Drug Boards going back to the Reagans despite their appaling reputation in the recovery field.

Information being gathered through the investigation launched by 16th Congressional Candidate Jeff Fisher of Florida currently has the attention of the FBI, DNC under Cam Kerry, Ralph Nader, Dennis Kucinich, Al Sharpton, 60 minutes, The Nation & others.

Please contact us as soon as possible

You can reach Jeff at 561 889 2165 cell or 561 865 9548.


Beverly, Bless you and your family for 100 generations. May you travel safe surrounded by light. Thank you for being such a strong warrior and seeker of truth. You will always be remembered in our hearts and dreams.


r.g.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #280
281. "The MIS Director is currently in hiding. Jeff can reach him."
That explaines two questions...

Why would he release all this info so they would know who Mr. xxxxx was? - because he is already "protected"

Is this being treated seriously by the FBI? - If someone is in their protection, probably...
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #281
284. Again, I really have to question why this completely unsubstantiated
and grandiose story is apparently a much more realistic possibility to you than Niel Bush's software connections.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #284
286. Again, I say it isn't any more serious.... HELLO?
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #286
288. With no PROOF whatsoever to verify these claims, NO
but it's been a nice distraction. Thanks.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #288
289. WTF, these are not MY claims, IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT, CALL FISHER
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 12:29 AM by jsamuel
Get off of my ass!

Or would you rather this board be Nazi Germany where we only let the information out that you as a 50 poster deem to be credible?
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #289
290. get a grip
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #290
291. Aerosmith, Great Album!
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #280
282. Is this guy for real?
If something is really up then why is he blabbing it all over the web like this? This guy seems a tad unstable.
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jhgatiss Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #280
283. It is evident from the Bowles letter...
on the website that Mr. Fisher is evidently a DU'er. If that is the case, why doesn't he just say what he's got to say in plain English here. And why does he need to post or send letters to Bev Harris to get her attention? And if he has the FBI involved why does Bev Harris need to be involved?

If this is all true its going to make one damn good movie!
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #283
285. haha!
good movie... hahahaha
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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
293. I posted this on the Kos thread:
"I would definitely be cautious about this; it's just the "crazy-talk" bait that they'd love to pin on the "internet conspiracy theorists" to completely taint the recount process - and there's an aspect of the media that would just love to pile on and mock us all. I'd sooner slit my wrist than vindicate that pompous twit Peter Jennings.

If someone knows of a private source who could quietly investigate the legitimacy of these claims, the site, and the involvement of those people mentioned... it would really help. An ambitious young journalist, preferably, LOL. Or even a private investigator. I'm just as eager to expose bullshit as I am to expose fraud. With no disrespect intended towards the candidate, I've never seen a more amateur site representing someone running for public office. Funds could've been low, true, but that really doesn't look like a professional website. Danger, Will Robinson."

The problem with all this info is this: considering Iran Contra, the rationalization and attempted coverup for the torture at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, the entire Arkansas Project - all true, all proven - then it would be easy to scoff at these kinds of stories. But... it's impossible to dismiss it so easily, now that we know what these people are capable of. Honestly, we don't know WHAT they would or wouldn't do to retain the power they hold - they control EVERYTHING. If their ambition is any indication, we can't hold them to the same measurement of morality as we would most politicians or political movements. They are capable of anything. And that's the tragedy - and the trap.
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
294. The Rathergate memos worked bec. rang true
They basically said everything everyone already knew, if they were honest with themselves . . . but were detectably forged, so gave everyone an excuse to ignore what they knew.

Two req'ts to be effective: (1) plausibility and (2) can be proven false.

I'm not sure where I come out on this, except to say we need first-rate investigation, and I don't think the media are in that category.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #294
295. You make some very good points
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 03:18 AM
Response to Original message
296. I have decided, THIS MUST BE HANDLED
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 03:19 AM by jsamuel
Freepers would hate it if this were true and will probably attack me.

Many of you may attack me, the messenger, because you are scared of another Rathergate or Dixiecrat thing happening. I understand and go ahead and do so, however this man has never changed his story at all and all the information is his letters pan out.

NOTE: Bob Graham has nothing to do with any of the letters, that was a HORRIBLY BAD rumor. r.g. stands for Al Rogers (I know, bad nickname)
http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com /

The schools exist:
http://www.baypointschools.com/academics%20frames.htm

They are located in the Miami area. The other information also pans out. Feel free to refute, but don't be a freeper.
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AnIndependentTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #296
297. more information to support jsamuel
http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com /

They tried to hide this from the public and the truth always comes out.....


A woman named Diann Kelleher may testify.....She works for Diebold...

Bay Point School, and possibly other schools like Cal Tech, were used and trained illegally by these criminals in order to help hack election databases.....Imagine common students being converted into thugs and criminals....We now know where the real absolute evil lies....Imagine if one of these hackers who's been found hacking verified voting and BBV is tracked down, and testifies against his whole group......

---------------------------------------------------------------------
PaineInTheArse

Nancy Pelosi's website is believed to be a false website. See link.
Is Fisher's?

http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/index.php?showto...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Activisms

That "lady" is on the head council of several boards and the investigators have said directly that they are, getting a hold of her.

It means they took names of felons and criminals and added them to the vote tallies, in other words, the taking of names of people who didn't actually vote or are registered to vote. Even numbers of criminals who were made up, as its part of the sime computer rigging on the election. So the "example" of a successful run is, a script that displays the felon's names in electronic voting repeatedly through-out the entire tabulator.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
gduval
Also this alleged Caltech claim is based on CNN's "revised" exit polls and goes to debunk the previous UPenn ( Dr. Freeman) study that bases the earlier exit polls.

Also makes claims about the domographics of the early polls being weighted with by women mostly and democratic responders. The point about "women only" being polled is not true because the exit poll takers are trained to keep the tally ballanced. Meaning they stop asking women after they reach 52 percent and seek only male responders. And to dispell the issue of the democrats more eager to respond thn republicans, the randomized selection fo every 6th or 8th voter seems to debunk that you'd think. I guess that's why we see no names with "PHD" on the end of this report.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

It all seems to get uglier and smellier by the hour.....

Katherine Harris makes decision

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/004317.html

Bay Point College Reports

http://www.djj.state.fl.us/djjservices/residential/resc...

Dr Peter Blass adds information on his website

http://www.pblass.com /

Cirulating information points to strange connection for Ambassodor Sembler

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=7

I don't think this evidence was planted.....the depth of the reports is getting frightening....
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From http://www.baypointschools.com/index.htm

Our mission
Dedicated to building a safer community through positive peer pressure and education, one youth at a time. To guide troubled, anti-social youth to become positive productive young men through participation in a positive structured, nurturing and consistent positive peer environment where education is the primary focus. To focus on building self-esteem through positive behavior.

Hmmpositive peer pressure to guide troubled, anti-social youth to manipulate voting systems?

From: http://www.baypointschools.com/academics%20frames.htm

Computer Lab Rebuild Project
During January, 2004 the K5 main computer lab located on the West Campus was completely rebuilt and rewired from the ground up. In conjunction with IT services, Dade County Public Schools Alternative Outreach Program, twenty new computers, a new server, switching equipment, high speed networked printer, and educational software, were installed and networked for lab use. Students are afforded the regular use of state of the art hardware and software to enhance their educational experience.

Interestingly, the heads of the students shown in the photos on this page have been blurred while pictures elsewhere on the site have not. Why?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting continuing story on the hacker coalition...


Expert analyzes how to hack the vote using a team of hackers in as simple as 1-2-3


http://www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevote.htm


There is also a letter adressed to Bev Harris, now on www.jefffisherforcongress.com but the page has not yet been updated.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Found the real name of Mr. XXXX and was looking up some info he was working with alot of young african americans and poor whites, this is not good news...

Voting machines hacked: Logs showing modem activity
MONDAY Nov 1 2004: New information indicates that hackers may be targeting the central computers counting our votes tomorrow. All county elections officials who use modems to transfer votes from polling places to the central vote-counting server should disconnect the modems now.
There is no down side to removing the modems. Simply drive the vote cartridges from each polling place in to the central vote-counting location by car, instead of transmitting by modem. "Turning off" the modems may not be sufficient. Disconnect the central vote counting server from all modems, INCLUDING PHONE LINES, not just Internet. In a very large county, this will add at most one hour to the vote-counting time, while offering significant protection from outside intrusion.

It appears that such an attack may already have taken place, in a primary election 6 weeks ago in King County, Washington -- a large jurisdiction with over one million registered voters. Documents, including internal audit logs for the central vote-counting computer, along with modem "trouble slips" consistent with hacker activity, show that the system may have been hacked on Sept. 14, 2004. Three hours is now missing from the vote-counting computer's "audit log," an automatically generated record, similar to the black box in an airplane, which registers certain kinds of events."


http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/11/301607.shtml

Link to an african americans board they know alot about Bush....... (some of them...possible witnesses, go to school near Bay Point)

http://community.allhiphop.com/showthread.php?p=1842447...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Uh oh Bush is into this thing stinky deep....He came up with the first program to launch full computer cyberwarfate

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A38110-2003Feb...

President Bush has signed a secret directive ordering the government to develop, for the first time, national-level guidance for determining when and how the United States would launch cyber-attacks against enemy computer networks, according to administration officials.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
His brother owns the educational rights to the software

LATEST NEWS
January 28, 2002
Neil Bush to introduce Web-based learning at local school
Neil Bush, brother of President George W. Bush, will be at Shroder Paideia Academy in Kennedy Heights Jan. 29 to introduce Ignite, a Web-based learning system.


Bush is the founder of Ignite, which combines a unique instructional design for teachers with Internet-based technologies.

According to Humana Health Plan of Ohio, the community sponsor of Ignite, the system builds on students' individual learning styles and strengths, letting them customize their learning experience.
http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/20...

His brother and Jeb are two of Diebold's highest contributors
---------------------------------------------------------------------
But this is particularly weird to me because I worked on the campaign. I had a voter list from an outside organization (not Kerry camp) I had so many felons on my list that had NEW VOTER next to their name.

How do I know? Well, there was a large number of people at the same address and before I began to canvass by foot, I goggled it and came up with "Missouri Sex Offenders". No, I'm not kidding. I talked to the people at the facility and they said they can't vote. They are felons on parole. I could not get anyone to discuss this with me. No one would touch it. And there 3 pages of names. And this is just one small precinct. WoW."

Jeb Bush hired Joseph Klock to attempt to make it legal for all felons to be put on voting rolls.....Its been declared in an official press report.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.steelhector.com/attorneys_display.php?id=75

Bush Paid off Florida Election Theft Helpers in 2000 with Jobs - in 2004 with FEMA Funds?
12-Oct-04
Stolen Election 2000
Right now, millions of FEMA money is being channeled to residents of Miami-Dade County in So. Florida where there was little hurricane damage. A pay off in advance to help Bush steal election 2004? Think that's far-fetched? Think adgain! The Miami Herald discovered in 2002 that Bush had lavishly paid off FLA operatives who helped him steal election 2000 with plum federal jobs: "Although they now serve Bush in sharply different roles, they are among more than 50 political appointees {this is OBSCENE!] found to have served as troops in the frantic Florida recount battle that followed the Nov. 7, 2000, election. Political patronage has long been a reward for campaign loyalty. But the distribution of plum jobs to those who worked in Florida after the 2000 election suggests that that service became a kind of political merit badge that carried a special benefit." And now Bush may be using a Florida tragedy as a source of payoff.

http://66.218.71.225/search/cache?p=Joseph+Klock+to+leg...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://66.218.71.225/search/cache?p=Jeb+Bush+hires+Jose...

Jeb LIED About Felon Purge Warning
17-Oct-04
Jeb Bush

Florida's Herald Tribune reports Jeb "Bush said Friday that he was never warned about any problems before the list was released. But his denial contradicts a May 4, 2004, e-mail in which Florida Department of Law Enforcement computer expert Jeff Long describes how election officials told Bush the list needed to be abandoned. 'Paul Craft called today and told me that yesterday they recommended to the Gov that they 'pull the plug,'' on the voter database, Long wrote in an e-mail to his boss, Donna Uzzell. Long added that state election officials 'weren't comfortable with the felon matching program they've got.' 'The Gov rejected their suggestion to pull the plug, so they're 'going live' with it this weekend,' Long wrote." Jeb is lying - IMPEACH Jeb now!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
According to the data search it shows the entire school was renovated....

Now to point out what I'm talking about: Blow up the picture using Photo studio. See that large black box outline on the bottom? That isn't a powerstrip, the power chords are going out the back of this area....Also there is wedged inbetween the routers, a wireless NIC card, and you can't see what brand it is which is why superimposing the picture is helpful


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http://www.coolgear.com/productdetails1.cfm?sku=509329&...

That isn't the same model of intellenet, if you look at the sharpened picture you can see it ends right on the door of the cabinet. The one in this obvious photo above would extend and keep going: It doesn't. That means that, the model in this picture is not matching of the models they are selling for Intellenet, the code on the front says the model number: It was blurred out but using sharpness contrast it shows a "T" model followed by a number of 2 digit

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Bob G. is Al Rogers, that is simply his alias everyone already talked about it. Al Rogers is involved in this. Bob G. has absolutely nothing to do with Senator Graham, and I don't think anyone has contacted him at all.

More updates: Conversations from today
http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com/Campaign2006/joesa...
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The stink gets so bad you can taste it

Parents fight Jeb's biased test, don't want Ignite! learning


http://www.pww.org/article/articleprint/3725

http://www.thestraights.com/news/index.htm#jeb-dfaf

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/nbushmug1.html

Noelle Bush, daughter of Florida Governor Jeb Bush, was arrested by Tallahassee police in January 2002 and charged with trying to fill a fake prescription for Xanax. After entering a court-ordered drug treatment program, Bush was rearrested in July 2002 when a counselor found her in possession of unauthorized pills. In October 2002, an Orlando judge ordered her back to jail for another violation of her treatment program.


His own daughter sure liked the program......
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When Students get USED by Ignite! learning

http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com/Campaign2006/lette...

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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #297
298. Thanks, Great Job
Thanks to Activism too
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Woo Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #298
299. HEY
I believe it jsamuel --

Started thinking about it and it seems just as plausible as anything else -- AND it's the ONLY complete theory as to how it was done we have...

Just don't know if it will ever see the light of day past the blogs(wonder who Bush will fire tomorrow?)

But in the end... no matter how it is proven, through this investigation -- or through statistical models and recounts it all comes down to one thing... fraud.
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #298
300. MY THANKS TO ALL OF YOU !!
You guys are something else! So when do you think this will blow out into the "mainstream media"? :nuke:
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