Who's counting the votes ?

[kster]

There's new evidence that computer hackers could change election results without anyone knowing about it, WESH 2 News reported

http://www.wesh.com/news/5542983/detail.html

Howard dean hacks an election video.

http://www.canofun.com/blog/videos/bevharristopica.wmv


Computer programmer Clinton Curtis testified at the December 13th, 2004 Congressional hearing in Columbus, Ohio naming Republican Congressman Tom Feeney as the person who hired him to prepare vote-rigging software.

http://www.iwilltryit.com/fixed1.htm

2005 AD--After Diebold we get to pick from these companies to get our votes counted.

A thread about problems with ES&S.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=404972&mesg_id=404972

A thread about the problems with Sequoia.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x400389

From the looks of this line up, I think we should consider Paper Ballots Hand Counted And Recorded By The People At The Precinct level. You?

[GuvWurld]

1. Let's talk logistics

I tried to do a thread recently that didn't exactly go in the direction I had hoped. I think you may be starting one here that could cover some valuable ground. In talking to County Supervisors and election department people, it is challenging enough to get them to admit there are problems with machines. In addition to needing to get them there, they also need to see a viable alternative. I'm not looking for talking points. I'm looking more for an outline of the logistics and costs that would be the beginning of a plan to present showing exactly how we would transition from current setup (whatever that is for you) to hcpb. This is smart and essential preparation if we are going to seriously have a chance at getting decision makers to make the decisions we want.

[kster]

2. County Supervisors and election department people,

Don't they work for us, If your boss says there is a problem with the way the machines are counting, so we are going to change, heres how we are going to do it, do you turn to your boss and say no I need to see a viable alternative before I will do it your way.

No, you would do it his way.

[GuvWurld]

3. Let me try this another way

Yes the Supes and elections people work for us but they don't always act like that. We have to persuade them to make the choices we support. We are asking them to genuinely be our representatives. If we know what we want them to do for us, we can simply tell them. They may ignore us. If we show them how to do what we want and what it will cost and why it is smart, maybe we can persuade them. We need their cooperation. This will also create a vehicle for informing and persuading the community.

[kster]

4. I'll try again

Are these facts correct

http://nightweed.com/usavotefacts.html

[GuvWurld]

5. I believe those are true facts

I'm not sure what you are trying discuss with this thread. I am saying, like you, that hcpb are the way to go. I'm trying to open a pragmatic discussion about how to convince the people who could decide to let us vote that way. Is this off base for you? Have I missed something?

[kster]

6. Just wondering why Sanchez didn't decide PBHC

seems like a battered wife, that keeps going back for more beatings Diebold beat him up, so he goes directly to ES&S. Doesn't add up.The information is out there on all these corrupt vote counting companies. Why not get completely away from the abuse.

[GuvWurld]

7. Good question and analogy

The whole country sometimes seems like the battered wife. Certainly ES&S is a false alternative that cannot deliver Democracy. This accounts for why it is so important to take the approach advocated above. We want to make sure that elections officials who do decide to walk away from Diebold will not make another bad choice. We should make it as easy as possible for them to make a good choice. I'm suggesting this goes beyond just having talking points about machine problems or hcpb benefits. If we show what is involved in the transition to hcpb it will help overcome objections to doing it. Also, if the transition is going to happen, this stuff is going to have to be figured out anyway. Knowing how it would be done would allow us to talk about it knowledgeably and convincingly, to officials and the public. Again, I'm trying to be pragmatic.

[Neil B Forzod]

8. here's why

There's a small chance he still has at least one or two neurons firing, even if he appears to be otherwise brain-dead.

Neil

[Wilms]

9. kster. I think Guv is onto something when he says your on to something.

I'm guessing he's seeing, in your post, a way to get through to BoE types.

Of course we'd think that they'd just "get it" about electronic voting. Well...many don't. Despite "working for us". And this will be for a range of differing reasons. Guv asks how to get to them.

I haven't yet seen Gary Beck's CD. I think it's aimed at voters more than targeting, technically, decision-makers, which is what I'm guessing is what Guv is on about.

A compilation, not about stolen elections or Bush v Kerry or Gore, but of nuts and bolts "Election Management Systems" stuff.

I think.

[GuvWurld]

10. Thanks Wilms, that's correct.

We are trying to influence more than one group of people. Each group might need a different approach. In particular, elections officials and County Supes are going to need to see costs and logistics to be persuaded, otherwise we are easily dismissed as pie in the sky idealists or tin foil hatters or whatever else we are not. This is part of how we can show we are not these things and at the same time address and overcome at least some of the obstacles that prevent us from getting what we want.

[FogerRox]

11. I spent 6 months talking myself blue to our county Freeholders

as well as nearly 100 other people. Instead they voted to buy the Sequoia Advantage, a 30 year old cpu in a 20 year old plastic case. Our state- NJ is already 62% Sequoia Advantage. Some fucker some place got paid off.

I have heard similar stories from other locales. Election reform acitivists need to recognize when the fix is in. And how to react. At that point talking doesnt work. Pardon my blunt language, but ya got fuck their world up. Ya gotta know your HAVA and your state election law. If local officials fuck up-- take their asses to court. Write a criminal referal to your local District US attorney.

At a certain point I realized I was pissin into the wind, essentially pissin on my self. YOu see the fix was in. The county Freeholders waited untill 2 days after they got re-elected-- then scheduled the vote to OK the contract. 5 DEMS voted yes.

What may be needed is funding-- the average activists group doesnt have it.

1) funds for investigating lobby monies coming into your state. Who paid the lobbying firm, and who got what from the lobbying firm.

2) Know your HAVA and state election law- look for any ways to nail their asses to the cross. Was state and Federal law followed to the tee, concerning certification of voting equipment,contract to purchase voting equipment and the Bidding process.

3) The Fuckers violated a LAW. In my case, HAVA. HOW TO GET A LAWYER? One who has experience in Superior court, even better Federal court- Since HAVA is federal -- I think a HAVA violation comes under the purview of that court.

You see, at a certain point ya gotta play hardball with the fuckers. They are out to fuck you-- might as well fuck them before they fuck you.

[GuvWurld]

12. I agree with that too. See our hardball campaign...

It has been getting quite a lot of attention this week. Here is a DU thread that announced it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2310273

It refers back to this post in the GuvWurld Blog. Hopefully you've also noticed the threads about media coverage of my call for the County Election Manager's resignation. That is happening in conjunction with pressure on our DA and Grand Jury to investigate who in our elections department may have allowed Diebold to install uncertified software in voting machines, as reported in this CA Secretary of State Staff Report. 16 other CA counties should be raising the same questions which is why I presented this as a coordinated statewide campaign.

If we are going to root out the truly bad players, we have to give others a way to do right by us and stay in the game. Think of how blatant are the tactics used to divide the public. Perhaps you can think of this as a way for us to return the favor. If local government is to be successfully divided, those standing on our side would benefit greatly from having not just what we want presented to them, but an action plan for how to implement what we want. This is no guarantee, of course, but if we want to consider ourselves determined to achieve our goals, we have to know how we can actually do that and how we can make it possible and easier for elections officials and County Supes to give us what we want. Your point is well taken that such an approach would be lost on many. But it would help greatly to develop alliances with those capable of and willing to stand with us, plus it would assist in gaining public support.

[kster]

13. I think you are on to something when you say

"I think Guv is onto something when he says your on to something" after typing that, I feel like I'm -ON- something. :rofl:

[FogerRox]

14. whos on what? LOL

[FogerRox]

15. Who's counting the votes ?

I am and you are all fucked LOL LOL LOL -- ok its not that funny. When I heard it in BraveHeart -- it was funny