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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:23 PM
Original message
We have 36 hours to help ensure that every American vote will be counted
I HAVE REMOVED THE NAMES ON THIS EMAIL I RECIEVED! FLY


EAC Public Comment Needed Immediately!


http://www.eac.gov /
View the Proposed Voluntary Voting System Guidelines and other current documents at this website.

Best,
XXXX



NOW IS THE TIME!!! We have 36 hours to help ensure that every American vote will be counted in the 2008 election and beyond. The Federal Election Assistance Commission closes the public comment period on their proposed Voluntary Voting System Guidelines at 5 p.m. this Friday, September 30, 2005.



Please send the following phrase or whatever you would like to express on the proposed guidelines immediately to votingsystemguidelines@eac.gov . Many technical people are submitting detailed comments, but we learned yesterday that governments around the world are WATCHING to see what America YOU think.



I want Section 6.8 to require a voter-verified paper audit trail for ALL voters and voting systems. It should be mandatory.



Sorry for the short notice, but this comment WILL count.



PLEASE SEND FAR AND WIDE AS SOON AS YOU HAVE SENT YOUR EMAIL.



For fair elections,



Nancy Wallace

Co-founder, TrueVoteMD.org



Bobbie Brinegar

Senior Political Adviser, VerifiedVoting.org
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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. kicked and nominated!!!
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brettdale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. kick
kick
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. .
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. Kick & recommended
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. Done...thanks.
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Extend a Hand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
6. done n/t
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. Kicked! Thanks.
I sent my comments, urging paper ballots, hand counted.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
8. Done and thanks. n/t
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. Done, Kicked, And Nominated !!!
:kick:
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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
10. kicked & nominated
:kick:

Ultra-important stuff. Glad to see this is on greatest already!

Thanks, flybaby! :patriot:
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
11. Done
But this is what I said (after a lengthy preamble):

I want Section 6.8 to require a voter-verified paper ballot for ALL voters and voting systems. It should be mandatory.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
12. Done. Thanks!
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KatieB Donating Member (431 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
13. Kicked
Truly easy to send the automatic email once to click the link.
One click to sustain our democracy.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
14. Done...K&R...nt
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
15. Should we also say that the paper audit trail is the "legal vote"
ie it is what counts as a vote, not the electronic count?

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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. Absolutely, John Q.
This has been my concern all along, that we'll get the "paper," but they will still try and give the "electronic" precedence. This is a critical point that we ALL should try and put forth.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
16. kick
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
17. This may fit the bill or not... I'm not sure.
My email:

Subject: Count All the Votes


I'm not completely saavy on all aspects of voting process, but I do know this vote transparency, ability to verify results and accountability to the highest ethical standards in counting the votes that America counts on to assure US that our Democracy functions is crucial to having a Democracy and not just some other country run by rich people pretending to listen to the "little people" while all the while they do as they please with our tax dollars.

Why can't I have an annonymous voter id number magnetically keyed onto my verifiable voter id card and a personal pin just like we use for bank cards and a website that reports vote results by area and voter id, so I can look up my results and see the totals in the general area without any media spin?

Why can't I get a receipt when I vote, just like I get a receipt when I deposit or withdraw money from the bank that has my voter id number on it and my results which I can file with my local party headquarters. Why can't we have that website updatable by the voter id in question if there is any discrepency so we know right away if there is a problem with vote tampering going on?

Why can't we make it illegal for anyone who is running an election campaign to also be in charge of running the election fairly vis a vie Ken Blackwell in Ohio?

I want my country back, so do what it takes to count all the votes so Americans can do their jobs and keep politicians on their best behavior with our ability to actually vote them out of office if they don't do the job we elected them to do.
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jasmineblue Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
18. Done & kicked! eom
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
19. Done!
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
20. Done, nominated! n/t
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ohtransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
21. Done! n/t
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
22. Done, kicked, and nominated.
:kick:
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blue4barb Donating Member (367 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
24. Done, kicked and nominated. eom
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freedomfries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. kick & done
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
26. PLEASE KEEP KICKED!!! NEED LOTS TO DO THIS!!
:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

THANKS ..FLY
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Hun Joro Donating Member (511 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
27. Done! n/t
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il_lilac Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
28. done
but is anyone listening?
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kimpossible Donating Member (785 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
29. Done. Kicked and nominated! nt
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
30. done. . . . kick and nominated... n/t
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organik Donating Member (217 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
31. done n/t
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
32. Done!! You betcha! Thank you.
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
33. no trail
say ballot
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
34. done.
Peace. :hi:
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
35. Done! Here is my short and not so sweet response:
I want Section 6.8 to require a voter-verified paper audit trail for ALL voters and voting systems. It should be mandatory.
If I can get a receipt from my ATM, then voting machines can provide one too.
The only reason for not creating a paper trail is to steal the vote.
The American people are fed up with the vote fraud and dirty tricks. Only those who are afraid of the truth or who stole elections themselves are against a verifiable paper trail.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
36. Done! Thanks for the heads up! nt
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skipos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
37. done nt
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
38. do people not remember what Andy was always yelling about?
Edited on Thu Sep-29-05 02:55 PM by Faye
not a paper trail, a paper ballot. there is a huge difference legally. please please say ballot in your emails.
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Melissa G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
39. Done !!! Thanks flyarm ! my email below....
I want Section 6.8 to require a voter-verified paper ballot for ALL voters and voting systems. It should be mandatory.I want transparent voter verifiable paper ballot elections. I want to be SURE that the tabulators are accurately tabulating votes and not the programs that some partisan company that owns the software might have put in there. I want to be sure there are
Democracy requires this to function. America must Demand this now! No more stolen elections!!! No more reason to wonder if it is stolen.
Sincerely
Melissa G
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
40. For Andy: NO FREAKING TRAILS: PAPER BALLOTS!!
Ask for what you want: A voter-verified paper BALLOT!

An audit trail is not enough and it is NOT the same! We want a ballot that can be used if there is a recount.

VVPBs are legal ballots.

ASK FOR VOTER VERIFIED PAPER BALLOTS, folks!

Kick this for Andy and all those who have worked on this.

I will send this out tonight to all the groups on my list but I will ask them to ask for VVPB not paper trails.
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. thank you!!!!
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. yes i agree 100% but i did not write this and obviously this is
a crunch time..i wrote in my email paper ballots as well...and i sent out to many today to write paper ballots...but this is not my forum..i can only write mine as i see fit...those doing this are saying paper trails..i can not rewrite what they have asked..only clearify what i write..i also ask those of you sending an email write vvpb...

fly
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #43
52. Sorry, fly. I really wasn't fussing at you
I just want us to get want we deserve and not some sham of a thing that they want to give us.

I have much love for you, fly! :hug:
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. OH SWEET ARNHEIM..I KNOW..
i was concerned about this when i posted but it was sent to me to get on the boards..and i wasn't at liberty to change the words...but i knew it was too important not to post, regardless of the words they chose......

i can not for the life of me understand why anyone working with voting reform continue to use the word "trail" instead of "ballot"

i can scream till i am blue in the face in my state of fla..and i can explain it ..and explain it..and explain it..and what do they go on the radio or newspapers with?? you got it.."trail"....

i feel like sometimes its self abuse!! lol...

i just wanted anyone who knows me to know ..it wasn't my words..and do say... " ballots " ....in all your emails ..

for our Andy...and his life's work...
Arnheim..i know he is smiling down on us today!!

so lets keep this kicked and get as many emails out as possible!!

everyone send to everyone you know pleaseeee..5pm deadline today!!

fly
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #40
50. Also send a 2nd email --- one "From Andy"
Just past his speech in it.

What is a Ballot?
By Andy Stephenson:

In order for me to vote, I must have faith. Faith in the system, faith in the process, and it's faith that makes me believe that it matters that I participate at all.

And anywhere along the way, if society, our government, elected officials, or individuals damage that faith, or cause me to question that faith, it doesn't just hurt me, it hurts the system itself, it attacks our beliefs and undermines our Democracy.

Democracy can't be bought with guns or bombs. Democracy is born as an idea and grows in the hearts and minds of those who believe in it, those who have faith in the system.

Why is the American Dollar stronger than the Peso? ... at least the last time I checked...

Faith

Take away my ballot, my real life paper ballot, and you've undermined my faith at the most basic level. The tactile level, the level at which I can touch and feel the reality of my vote.

I'm not a Luddite, and I'm not against machines counting paper. But I wouldn't trust a bank without deposit slips, or an ATM without a receipt.

I don't have faith in Corporations, weathermen, or politicians. And I shouldn't have to trust any of them to count my vote.

Referring to arms control treaties with the Soviet Union, Reagan once said, "Trust but verify ". But I say, provide me a way to verify and
then I can start to trust.

And don't tell me that YOU trust the system. There's got to be a way for me to trust the system. I need to be able to understand the process and verify the results in order to gain faith in the process.
This is a new bill of goods those who would take away my paper ballot are trying to sell. They want me to believe in mathematics, a cryptography solution, VoteHere is one such company pushing this
solution. Some fancy math, and a receipt that I can punch into the Internet that shows me that I voted. But no one seems able to explain to me how this works.

Fancy mathematics and fancy words loose my attention. While I might not be able to calculate the weight of the sun, I should be able to understand how we count votes. If we are going to have a Democratic society, it must allow me, and YOU, and any average citizen to be bad at math, but still be able to convince me that the system is valid. The average member of society isn't going to understand a fancy system of cryptography, just as most of us realized long ago that fancy math hasn't helped us predict the weather. A 60% chance of a valid election doesn't sound very good to me. I just don't have faith in fancy math.

I especially don't have faith in fancy "proprietary "math. Another word for proprietary is secret. So when someone tells me they have some fancy mathematics, a cryptography solution, that makes my paper ballot unnecessary, once again, I'm not really that interested. Because I don't have much faith in mathematics that I don't understand. And if you have to resort to explaining the system with metaphor and simile, or if you need several experts to explain it to
me, you've lost me. And I'll have no faith in the system you build.

These machines, these blackbox voting machines. Already in place in Snohomish and Yakima. They require me to trust without verification. Trust the election officials, trust the government, trust the companies, trust the programmers, trust the mathematicians. But frankly none of these people ever had my trust to begin with.

The media, the voting officials, the voting machine companies, even the Supreme Court, is arguing that speed is of the essence, and obviously these machines are far speedier without paper ballots clogging up the process. But I don't care so much about speed, I'm more interested in accuracy. The battle isn't for speed. My faith isn't challenged by slow and steady bookkeeping with proper auditing.
It's challenged by secrets and lies. And once you've lost it, faith is a hard thing to regain.

These companies, and our election officials have lied to us, are lying to us, and will continue to lie to us, they've committed fraud, and it IS a conspiracy. It's a conspiracy to get rid of paper ballots, and I for one am losing my faith in the system.

Don't be fooled though, it's not just about the paper. The devil is in the details, and the details are in the words used. It's a verbal shell game, where "paper trail "and "paper receipt "are used to confuse you.

The words paper and ballot should not be separated. The go together hand in hand, and to separate them undermines the strength they have when unified. Paper is tangible, traceable, hard to destroy.
Electrons, on the other hand are small, we can't see them, most of us would have a hard time really explaining what they are. When I loose a $20 bill, I notice it's gone. When I lose an electron, I don't really notice.... unless my computer crashes, or I can't find a term paper, or my music skips. Scratch a piece of paper, I can still read what you wrote, scratch my new CD, it's worthless.

Paper trail, paper receipt, what do these terms mean? To me it means someone's trying to put one over on me. Cause when it comes to voting I know what a ballot is. It's been defined by law over hundreds of years. When I go to the grocery story I get a receipt, when I sell a house I sign a contract, and when I vote I get a ballot. Similes mean similar, they don't mean the "same ", and people who know the difference use the wrong words on purpose. They want some wiggle room... they want to change the system, they want to redefine the terms, get rid of the paper, turn the ballot into electrons, and give you a receipt, or a paper trail. Trick you into having faith in the system. So let's be clear here, and let's not mince words, a receipt is something that I get when I buy a banana, a ballot is something with which I vote. I'm not fooled by the verbal shell game. My eyesare still on the ball, and I'm not letting go of my paper ballot any time soon. Too adopt the words of the NRA you'll have to pry my paper ballot from my cold dead hands.

Words have meaning, and meaning builds faith. Faith is built on a foundation of trust. Take away my trust, and you've undermined the foundation. Bastardize the meanings built on that foundation and you
weaken the structure that holds up even weaker words. And just as assuredly as a house starts to crumble as the foundation is eroded,
and the walls start to fall, democracy is being undermined as the meaning is corrupted and the foundation is slowly torn from underneath. Take away my paper ballot, and you strip away the keystone on which I build my faith in the system.

So all this talk about faith, and really so far, very little about the actuality of how a paper ballot works to increase my trust in the system. You may ask me how a system of paper, in which ballot boxes turn up in Lake Michigan, or are lost in the back of the rooms of King County, inspires my faith.

The key is, that they do turn up later. One might be able to steal a few hundred votes, a few ballot boxes might disappear, but their very physicality makes those ballots hard to destroy. But click a button, and send a few electrons off into the "ether ", who knows if it ever gets where it's going, there's no physicality, and if it's lost, where will we find it. My term paper that I lost in college is still lost, it never turned up in the back of the lecture hall, or under the bed in my dorm room. Electronic votes that are lost will never be found in the back room, and no ballots will ever turn up in the river, or in the trunk of someone 's car. Just because the machine recount tells me the same number when I ask, doesn't mean it's more accurate. Data can be precise and simultaneously inaccurate.

Paper ballots are not a panacea, they won't fix the system. No, they are simply the foundation on which the system is built. There are many layers above the foundation on which the house of democracy is built, and there are many checks and balances that must be in place to assure that our votes are counted accurately. Random audits, checking the paper against the machine counts, correlating the number of votes with registered voters, all good and necessary ways to double check the accuracy of the process. And any system is going to have a certain calculable margin of error, and if any of us are going to be honest about what just happened in Washington State, the margin of victory fell well inside that margin of error, regardless of the recount, neither side can statistically claim victory, so the only victory left is a legal victory. There is obviously more than one way to lose faith in a system of belief.

But without a solid foundation there's nothing for me to build my faith upon.

Voting in this country use to be a public process. We voted in public, the vote was counted in public, by the public. We trusted in the system, because we the people were the system. And every battle we the people fought was to increase that trust, either to increase the number and types of people that voted, or to increase the validity of the system by reducing the influence of others on our personal choices. But now we vote in secret, using a secret ballot, on machines with secret code. I think something has been lost here, don't you?

~Andy Stephenson
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liberalla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
42. Done!
Good God! I hope they hear us!
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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
44. I added my two cents worth and sent the email giving my riff on this. Glad
to see it got 32 recommendations. Every day we're drawing closer to restoring democracy in this country.
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cyberpj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
45. Done and sent far and wide. nt.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. oh thanks you all!! please kick and keep kicked till 5 pm tommorrow!
:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:
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dalaigh lllama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
46. Done n/t
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
48. Done, K and R
:kick:

My short email:

Section 6.8 must require a voter-verified paper audit trail for all voters and voting systems. Anything less leaves our precious franchise vulnerable to fraud and manipulation.

Thank you,
Spiffarino
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vanboggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
49. This is our essential line of defense
from the neo-con types. Nothing else is as important to our immediate future as this one action. I've just sent my request for paper ballots.
Thank you flyarm!
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
51. Also send a 2nd email --- one "From Andy"
Just past his speech into it.

What is a Ballot?
By Andy Stephenson:

In order for me to vote, I must have faith. Faith in the system, faith in the process, and it's faith that makes me believe that it matters that I participate at all.

And anywhere along the way, if society, our government, elected officials, or individuals damage that faith, or cause me to question that faith, it doesn't just hurt me, it hurts the system itself, it attacks our beliefs and undermines our Democracy.

Democracy can't be bought with guns or bombs. Democracy is born as an idea and grows in the hearts and minds of those who believe in it, those who have faith in the system.

Why is the American Dollar stronger than the Peso? ... at least the last time I checked...

Faith

Take away my ballot, my real life paper ballot, and you've undermined my faith at the most basic level. The tactile level, the level at which I can touch and feel the reality of my vote.

I'm not a Luddite, and I'm not against machines counting paper. But I wouldn't trust a bank without deposit slips, or an ATM without a receipt.

I don't have faith in Corporations, weathermen, or politicians. And I shouldn't have to trust any of them to count my vote.

Referring to arms control treaties with the Soviet Union, Reagan once said, "Trust but verify ". But I say, provide me a way to verify and
then I can start to trust.

And don't tell me that YOU trust the system. There's got to be a way for me to trust the system. I need to be able to understand the process and verify the results in order to gain faith in the process.
This is a new bill of goods those who would take away my paper ballot are trying to sell. They want me to believe in mathematics, a cryptography solution, VoteHere is one such company pushing this
solution. Some fancy math, and a receipt that I can punch into the Internet that shows me that I voted. But no one seems able to explain to me how this works.

Fancy mathematics and fancy words loose my attention. While I might not be able to calculate the weight of the sun, I should be able to understand how we count votes. If we are going to have a Democratic society, it must allow me, and YOU, and any average citizen to be bad at math, but still be able to convince me that the system is valid. The average member of society isn't going to understand a fancy system of cryptography, just as most of us realized long ago that fancy math hasn't helped us predict the weather. A 60% chance of a valid election doesn't sound very good to me. I just don't have faith in fancy math.

I especially don't have faith in fancy "proprietary "math. Another word for proprietary is secret. So when someone tells me they have some fancy mathematics, a cryptography solution, that makes my paper ballot unnecessary, once again, I'm not really that interested. Because I don't have much faith in mathematics that I don't understand. And if you have to resort to explaining the system with metaphor and simile, or if you need several experts to explain it to
me, you've lost me. And I'll have no faith in the system you build.

These machines, these blackbox voting machines. Already in place in Snohomish and Yakima. They require me to trust without verification. Trust the election officials, trust the government, trust the companies, trust the programmers, trust the mathematicians. But frankly none of these people ever had my trust to begin with.

The media, the voting officials, the voting machine companies, even the Supreme Court, is arguing that speed is of the essence, and obviously these machines are far speedier without paper ballots clogging up the process. But I don't care so much about speed, I'm more interested in accuracy. The battle isn't for speed. My faith isn't challenged by slow and steady bookkeeping with proper auditing.
It's challenged by secrets and lies. And once you've lost it, faith is a hard thing to regain.

These companies, and our election officials have lied to us, are lying to us, and will continue to lie to us, they've committed fraud, and it IS a conspiracy. It's a conspiracy to get rid of paper ballots, and I for one am losing my faith in the system.

Don't be fooled though, it's not just about the paper. The devil is in the details, and the details are in the words used. It's a verbal shell game, where "paper trail "and "paper receipt "are used to confuse you.

The words paper and ballot should not be separated. The go together hand in hand, and to separate them undermines the strength they have when unified. Paper is tangible, traceable, hard to destroy.
Electrons, on the other hand are small, we can't see them, most of us would have a hard time really explaining what they are. When I loose a $20 bill, I notice it's gone. When I lose an electron, I don't really notice.... unless my computer crashes, or I can't find a term paper, or my music skips. Scratch a piece of paper, I can still read what you wrote, scratch my new CD, it's worthless.

Paper trail, paper receipt, what do these terms mean? To me it means someone's trying to put one over on me. Cause when it comes to voting I know what a ballot is. It's been defined by law over hundreds of years. When I go to the grocery story I get a receipt, when I sell a house I sign a contract, and when I vote I get a ballot. Similes mean similar, they don't mean the "same ", and people who know the difference use the wrong words on purpose. They want some wiggle room... they want to change the system, they want to redefine the terms, get rid of the paper, turn the ballot into electrons, and give you a receipt, or a paper trail. Trick you into having faith in the system. So let's be clear here, and let's not mince words, a receipt is something that I get when I buy a banana, a ballot is something with which I vote. I'm not fooled by the verbal shell game. My eyesare still on the ball, and I'm not letting go of my paper ballot any time soon. Too adopt the words of the NRA you'll have to pry my paper ballot from my cold dead hands.

Words have meaning, and meaning builds faith. Faith is built on a foundation of trust. Take away my trust, and you've undermined the foundation. Bastardize the meanings built on that foundation and you
weaken the structure that holds up even weaker words. And just as assuredly as a house starts to crumble as the foundation is eroded,
and the walls start to fall, democracy is being undermined as the meaning is corrupted and the foundation is slowly torn from underneath. Take away my paper ballot, and you strip away the keystone on which I build my faith in the system.

So all this talk about faith, and really so far, very little about the actuality of how a paper ballot works to increase my trust in the system. You may ask me how a system of paper, in which ballot boxes turn up in Lake Michigan, or are lost in the back of the rooms of King County, inspires my faith.

The key is, that they do turn up later. One might be able to steal a few hundred votes, a few ballot boxes might disappear, but their very physicality makes those ballots hard to destroy. But click a button, and send a few electrons off into the "ether ", who knows if it ever gets where it's going, there's no physicality, and if it's lost, where will we find it. My term paper that I lost in college is still lost, it never turned up in the back of the lecture hall, or under the bed in my dorm room. Electronic votes that are lost will never be found in the back room, and no ballots will ever turn up in the river, or in the trunk of someone 's car. Just because the machine recount tells me the same number when I ask, doesn't mean it's more accurate. Data can be precise and simultaneously inaccurate.

Paper ballots are not a panacea, they won't fix the system. No, they are simply the foundation on which the system is built. There are many layers above the foundation on which the house of democracy is built, and there are many checks and balances that must be in place to assure that our votes are counted accurately. Random audits, checking the paper against the machine counts, correlating the number of votes with registered voters, all good and necessary ways to double check the accuracy of the process. And any system is going to have a certain calculable margin of error, and if any of us are going to be honest about what just happened in Washington State, the margin of victory fell well inside that margin of error, regardless of the recount, neither side can statistically claim victory, so the only victory left is a legal victory. There is obviously more than one way to lose faith in a system of belief.

But without a solid foundation there's nothing for me to build my faith upon.

Voting in this country use to be a public process. We voted in public, the vote was counted in public, by the public. We trusted in the system, because we the people were the system. And every battle we the people fought was to increase that trust, either to increase the number and types of people that voted, or to increase the validity of the system by reducing the influence of others on our personal choices. But now we vote in secret, using a secret ballot, on machines with secret code. I think something has been lost here, don't you?

~Andy Stephenson
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oxymoron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
53. Done
kick
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. kick kick kick kick kick
:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
56. I'm going to crosspost on GD
this is very important
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
57. Done! Keep this kicked y'all! And nominated...
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Alizaryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
58. Done and kick
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I Have A Dream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
59. Done & kicked. (Too late to nominate!) n/t
:kick:
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. its been on greatest for 2 days and.......
on Greatest Threads
(Most Popular)

thanks all for doing this!!

fly

kick :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:
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