There's nothing to contest

[ramapo]

The Democrats lost...not just Kerry but Democrats.

Forget the vote for President. Democrats lost Senate seats and gained nothing in the House (we'll disregard the Texas redistricting fraud).

You can make an argument that had a few tens of thousands of votes gone our way that Kerry would be President. Was there fraud? Probably, maybe definitely, but there's still no way he would've won the popular vote.

Democrats failed, plain and simple. If Kerry won the electoral vote we'd be faced with an ugly situation. There would be a very Republican Congress backed by a popular vote loss. There'd be no honeymoon, no cooperation. Kerry would've been in deep shit from day one.

I'm not sure what Amurika voted against. Was it Kerry's policies, personality, the North vs South, urban vs. rural?

The election was based on image and trivial issues (gays, abortion, the flag, prayer, and other cultural wedge issues). Kerry did not diffuse these issues. The middle-class seems to have voted against their self-interests and may now pay a price for it. too bad.

Critical issues were ignored, especially the environment which is really the crazy aunt in the attic. We've had an easy time of it over the past 40-50 years. I don't expect it to last much longer. Neither Kerry or Bush had the guts to address the real problems facing us: environmental degradation, economic emptiness, imperialistic folly, et. al.

We spent the USSR into ruin. Now we're going to spend the USA to ruin. The cultural wedge issues will be meaningless when we've spent ourselves to death and destroyed the environment in the process.

[still_one]

1. This has nothing to do with Kerry or the Democrats

This has something to do with the integrity of our vote

[ramapo]

7. There is little integrity

If it couldn't be fixed after 2000, I doubt it will be. Hard to believe but true, many other countries have a much simpler, transparent, consistent, and believable voting procedure.

[DELUSIONAL]

Well amen bro -- this is OUR message!

This has nothing to do with Kerry or the Democrats

This has something to do with the integrity of our vote

-------------
Simple -- to the point -- a talking point!

(bro = brother = brada -- how is this spelled in Hawaiian pigeon?)

[peabody71]

43. I totally disagree.

Fraud is Fraud is Fraud.
1/3 of all voters voted eletronically.
You really believe that they stopped with Bush's reelection?

[HEAVYHEART]

52. EXACTLY

I don't believe any final numbers or election outcomes, or polls or any results of the election. If the numbers can be manipulated based on the voter fraud stuff that we've uncovered so far (to favor rethugs), then none of this shit is legit. Not to me anyway. The bastards cheated, nation wide.

I get really angry when I hear talks about what the dems can do better, moral issues, even our own people talking about what we did wrong. Screw all of that. The only thing that we did wrong, is we didn't stay ahead of the rethugs' game with regards to, how to manipulate the voting machines.

[madmax]

2. Well that certainly was uplifting.

Guess I can get back to my real life now. What's the use of trying anymore. Next time I won't bother to vote or maybe I'll just vote Republican. This way I can always feel I had some control. :hi:

[ramapo]

4. Sorry, reality sucks

[ParanoidPat]

13. Yeah! Don't you just love these people who just accept this crap.......

.......and are just too self involved to even stand up for their most basic right to self determination through representative government by, of, and for the people? :)

Yeah, why bother, I give up! :(


NOT!
:evilgrin:

[ramapo]

20. I don't give up

I've been watching this crap for too long....but it is a much more difficult problem than we think

[ParanoidPat]

25. I know how difficult the problem is.......

.......and you're attitude is of NO help in moving us toward the solution. :(

Lead, follow, or just get the hell out of our way. We are not going to stop. :evilgrin:

[bullimiami]

3. mad as hell i think you are wrong as hell

this whole election was a fraud.
it was not just the presidential race hacked. they hacked senate and house races and god knows what else. they did it in 02 as well in florida and georgia and probably elsewhere.

no we have not lost this, it has all been stolen. there is no democracy just a christo-totalitarian right wing coup.

[ramapo]

5. Maybe, maybe not

There just might've been more of those crazies who went out and voted than we'd like to believe

[ParanoidPat]

21. There were certainly more of them out there disenfranchising dem voters

in multiple states while spending over a half million RNC dollars.

But that was just a 'glitch', no fraud there! :evilgrin:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=923494

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ParanoidPat]

26. Hey, aren't you the one who was calling someone else a 'freeper'.....

.......about an hour and 30 posts ago on another thread? :shrug:

You are just way too obvious friend. :evilgrin: LOL!

[DELUSIONAL]

35. the fraud is so damned obvious -- only an idiot can't see it

Here are a few:
1. ALL the glitches and errors are in bushie's direction.

2. The exit polls are highly reliable -- yet the ones that deviate from the mean -- ALL are in bushie's direction.

3. Take a look at Truth is All's statistics -- or how about trying to remember basic high school math.

4. Do you understand the ODDS -- well the ODDS that these faith based voted changes happened by chance are something like 1 in 87 million or 1 in 200 million -- depending on how it is calculated.

Well golly gee -- bushie won the lottery -- who knows we were running a lottery instead of a Presidential election.

Why the fuck bother to get out the vote and vote -- when we don't control the vote. The computers were connected to the INTERNET -- don't you understand the issues involved in BBV?

Kids -- the PsyOps have descended upon DU.

We are being told that the oceans are red -- the sky is green, night is day and peace is war.

[David Dunham]

6. Bush's Court picks overturning of Roe v. Wade will backfire on Reps

[ramapo]

9. Let's hope so

Lots of women I know vote Repub not believing they'll ever really touch Roe v. Wade. I think they're naive. This goes back to Reagan.

[EndElectoral]

8. You miss the point..We don't know how massive this was with no paper trail

No abiltiy to recount....with the refusal of mainstream media to address these questions...and yes, with Kerry's reluctance to get involved directly.

This is about democracy, and our faith in our ability to trust in valid voting. I thought this was the big thing they wanted in Iraq. If people beleive it is all corrupt, we simply have more disenfranchised people at the mercy of the rove's of the world.

And as to the popular vote, I'm all for going with it, but the EC is what we have. THe popular vote is irrelvant in this.

[ramapo]

11. Popular vote issue would've killed Kerry

The Repubs (unlike the Dems) would've beat the popular vote loss to death. That's all you would've heard, probably for four years. That's why they win.

[bullimiami]

38. mad as hell you still.....dont......get........it

its the popular vote too.

they skimmed votes all over the country. NH is going to get a hand count. I anticipate it will be 10-15% deviated from the machine count. NH that kerry won but they took votes to make it look like a mandate. This election was not just small scale fraud it was virtually every state with insecure voting machinery, plus all of the old school dirty tricks, suppression, voter roles etc...

Bush lost this one big. As big as the exit polls rightly show. They flipped perhaps 5 million or more votes.

mad as hell. you dont seem that mad. take the blue pill buddy. go back to sleep, have a nice life.

[ramapo]

16. But Dems failed in getting paper trails

Four years to fix the voting problems and if anything they are worse...more obscure than in 2000.

[ParanoidPat]

29. "Dems failed"???

Don't you mean the people failed to get verifiable elections? :shrug:

[bullimiami]

39. the dems failed to get the paper trails. on this you are so right.

a huge failure. not recognizing the danger when it was waved in their faces.
and not fighting for what is right.
for rolling over and giving up.

[ParanoidPat]

41. You don't have a clue as to how many REPUBLICANS are with us........

.......in the fight for auditable elections, do you? :shrug:
Not to mention Greens, Indy's, and voters from every other party under the sun. :evilgrin:

Were you aware that the Bev Harris / BBV suit in California against Diebold had another plaintive, Jim March, a Republican gun lobbyist? I may not agree with Jim on many issues but he really is a nice guy at heart and is just as worried about our elections as we are.

BTW, Diebold just settled the suit for 2.6 million dollars. :toast:

[shance]

10. What is the masochistic compulsion for some Democrats to blame themselves?

even when there is GLARING evidence of voter fraud and wrongdoing which favors George Bush and Dick Cheney?

Why are you more fearful to ask legitimate questions and find out the truth than pointlessly assault and attack a very strong, dedicated Democratic grass roots foundation?

I actually find it comforting to realize there are not near the amount of homophobic Americans racing to the polls that this Administration and media want to promote. *Virtual* votes do not equate to homophobic votes.

Much of the division and discord between Americans is manufactured and designed to divide and promote distrust.

Please stop believing the lies!!

[ramapo]

14. The Democratic grass roots failed!!!

The Republican grass roots won...even if they cheated. Look at the vote s from "Red" states. Kerry won urban votes and not much else.

[shance]

37. Mad, are you a fortune teller? Have you already counted the votes?

Help us out. If you know more than we do then please let us know!

[Go_andbe]

50. wow

omigod

[bullimiami]

40. mad as hell. urban outnumbers rural by a landslide.

new york has more population than the entire rural states all combined. all we need to do is win the cities. the cities make this country go. we have the majority of the population and we pay the majority of the taxes.

[shraby]

42. Bye bye Mad as hell

:hi: We don't have time to play your game, we are going to play our own game now.

[ramapo]

19. "Most" people don't care

I don't believe the lies but the majority of our fellow citizens do. That is what matters.

[shance]

33. That is what matters? ONLY if we allow it to matter more than the truth.

Its up to us. We have to stand up for the truth.

If we don't, the bullies will take over and freedom will be a fond memory.

[Cronus Protagonist]

22. Why do you think they're Democrats?

I know it seems that way, and I don't know about this thread starter here, but for sure, most of the "roll over and quit" posters here are not Democratics.

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next business day by first class mail)

[shance]

30. My friend, you and I are both Democrats, we are ALL responsible

for this epidemic. Its up to all of us to flatten this inaccurate, self defeating myth as it is our leaders.

The media assaults, humiliates and degrades and ostracizes Democratic leaders and as a result, many if not most of them understandably suffer from overly weighing their words and actions. Look at how Bill Clinton and Senator Clinton were treated by the press, versus how the Bush Administration is being treated. I actually dont want anyone to be treated unfairly and that would include the Bush Administration. However they continue to demand lack of accountability on their end, and mercilessly target and attack individuals who are telling the truth and/or opposing their policies.

There are so many things being done in the name of the Bush Administration, that being the Executive branch deserves accountability which they continuously skirt, where President Clinton was criticized for breathing and rarely if ever fully recognized for all the accomplishments he succeeded in making. Its a double standard and we have to stop allowing it to happen. We have to dictate our own self image and help encourage and inspire other Democratic friends not to buy what the media promotes and attempts to perpetuate.

[ParanoidPat]

32. What makes you believe that their Democrats?

Could be that they're Independents playing Democrats on the Internets. :evilgrin:

[shance]

36. I hear friends of mine falling for the "lets blame ourselves" mantra

If it were true, Id have no problem with constructive criticism, but it is not true.

The truth is, at this point and from what I can see, is finding out what the truth is. I cant help but see that John Kerry prematurely threw in the towel and as a result has left this country and its citizens further vulnerable to a divisive, extremist path.

What concerns me is the blame the Democrats mentality when we are the ones that have been misled and our votes which were promised to us as being counted, have in fact not been counted, because EVEN IF THEY ARE COUNTED, Kerry has chosen not to fight, thus he has chosen not to become our president, if that facts add up. The blame the victim mindset is a method used by those wanting to invalidate and create doubt in us, thus, making it easier to overpower and dominate us, which is what is happening if we don't meet it head on.

[dmac]

12. Don't you think that

if they cheated to secure Bush's position, that there was across the board cheating to make sure they would have the majority they wanted ? I am actually surprised they stopped short of capturing enough seats to make it fillibuster-proof as well. I guess that is the agenda for '06.

Anyway, the point is, if Kerry had enough electoral votes to win, then chances are just as good some of the other races has discrepancies also and so no one can say whether Kerry would have had a hard time governing against a loaded House and Senate. As for being in deep shit from day 1? Absolutely, but not because of the cards being stacked against him - those cards are stacked against anyone. If there is anything positive to be found in a Bush re-election, it would be taht he would have to figure out his own mess, solve his own problems, and he would have a hard time blaming his blunders on a Democrat-light Congress.

[kuozzman]

15. Words of Wisdom from FDR:

"In politics nothing is accidental. If something happens, be assured it was planned this way."
- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Gore rejected Democrats who objected votes from FL to go to Bush

John Edwards on 11/3, at 2:30 am, “we will count every vote and we will make sure every vote is counted”


John Kerry in the early afternoon on 11/03: “In America it is vital that every vote count, and that every vote be counted. But the outcome should be decided by voters, not a protracted legal process. I would not give up this fight if there was a chance we would prevail."

All Dems talk about now is how nobody like them, like the lost by a landslide(or at all) or something? It's definitely a coordinated effort. What's scary, is we don't know what they're trying to do.

The Repubs party-wide attitude was laid out years ago in 94, in Newt's "Contract for America", which explains"

The 2004 election made American conservatism the majority viewpoint in the United States, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich said Monday.

He goes on to say the re-election of George W. Bush the fourth stage in the political life of majority U.S. conservatism. The first, he said, was 1980's election of Ronald Reagan, followed by 1994's “Contract with America” and the election of George W. Bush in 2000.

“Bush's 2004 re-election, which also increased the GOP's majority in the U.S. House and Senate, marks the beginning of a sustained Republican majority in that it resembles the 1936 election that saw Franklin Delano Roosevelt winning a second term while bringing new Democrats into the U.S. House and Senate.”

“The GOP has achieved majority status and now faces the challenge of growing past it." To do so, he said, the GOP must begin a serious effort to "drive home what it means to be an American" inside the courts, in U.S. education and in the immigration arena while crafting solutions to public policy questions that, first, work and, second, do not create dissension within the party's ranks.

“The third element of growing the majority is to immediately change the way policy proposals are crafted by making sure everyone, particularly non-traditional Republican voter blocs like blacks and Latinos, are included around the table when the plans are being drafted rather than at the point which they are being marketed.”

[ramapo]

17. Democrats now need an "event"

Democrats will not be able to change mindset on their own, going after each voter or even voting bloc.

Something must happen to shake up the now status quo.

[susanna]

18. DELETED by poster.

Thoughts need more work. Sorry!

[freedom_imperative]

27. Uh oh...

I think we just lost another to the whining gaggle.

[freedom_imperative]

23. The voice of reason!

I thought I was the only one in here. There is hope!

[ParanoidPat]

28. Um, you forgot the 't'.......

.......and I'm relatively certain you won't be for much longer. :evilgrin:

[KenCarson]

31. just a thought

people are talking about votefraud...they are picking key places, and i think it's native to say that one side invented it, but it appears republicans have a handle on the votemachine corps.

so if there was widespread votefraud, which has actually been reported for years, but this forum is covering in more detail now because of the election. if there is widespread voter fraud, how do we know the democrats lost?

i'm not debating the argument, just the premise

[ParanoidPat]

34. We don't.....

.....and trust me, we're not just picking 'key places' to look at either. ;-)

Fraud is an equal opportunity endeavor, it seems that it just suits the tastes of one party a lot more than the others.

Welcome to DU Ken. :hi:

[Carolab]

44. Wah wah

Go cry in a corner by yourself.

Right now, we "losers" are trying to investigate an election and reform our voting system. Let us know when you plan to join us.

[magellan]

45. The problem lies within the government itself

not just one political party.

The Republicans began driving wedge issues into this country quite some time ago via the corporate media machine. When Reagan took office, 65 corporations owned the largess of major network and print press outlets. Now it's down to five. FIVE.

I learned this tonight by listening to the only independent news tv available now as far as I'm concerned: Freedom of Speech TV. I had also done some research on this very issue earlier in the week.

All you have to do is go to Wikipedia and look up the network or cable news station (CNN, ABC, NBC, etc.), find the owner corporation, then click on subsidiaries. For example, News Corporation (Rupert Murdoch) owns FOX, Sky News in the UK, DirecTV, The NY Post, The Weekly Standard (a Neocon political magazine), 20th Century Fox and FX Network, among others. Time Warner/AOL subsidiaries include CNN, Cartoon Network, DC Comics, Fortune Magazine, HBO, New Line Cinema, People Magazine, Sports Illustrated, TBS Superstation, Time Magazine, Turner Network, Warner Bros. and WB TV.

That's just TWO of the conglomerates.

Then start digging into the owners and who they and their companies contributed to in the 2004 elections over at Political Money Line. Again, no surprise. For the most part their money went to the Republican Party and its many PACs, including ARMPAC (Americans for a Republican Majority).

It should scare all Americans that these few corporations control what most of us learn about the world and daily events. As many here know, it isn't a pretty picture. It's News-Lite at best, not real news. Absent alternative mainstream sources of information to consider, it fits the definition of propaganda.

The Democrats have been ineffectual in fighting this bias for two reasons. First, they want to control the news too, so they haven't done what they should to shape laws that keep the government OUT of the media and vice versa, period. And of course the Dems aren't known as a "corporate-friendly" party the way the Republicans are, so the GEs and Time Warners of this world aren't going out of their way to fund Democratic Party campaigns.

So we have an American populace that's largely kept ignorant of any view not endorsed by the government, by media big money interests who have a huge financial stake in keeping the Republicans happy. (For example, GE, along with Westinghouse, provided many of the parts for weaponry for the first Gulf War.)

I truly believe we're seeing the culmination of this now. After many years the US media has finally fallen into lock-step with the Neocon propaganda machine. It's a daily dose of "Here's what you have to believe to be a true Patriot." Anything short of that is described as somehow defective, i.e. anti-American.

This election wasn't won by moral values or anything else the Bush administration claims to have in superior abundance. It was won by the one thing they won't admit to having, the one thing the Dems can't get: media control.

[Carolab]

46. NOT JUST THE MEDIA

It was won by the one thing they won't admit to having, the one thing the Dems can't get: media control.

The VOTING MACHINES

[magellan]

48. Yes, the voting machines too, but

my point is they wouldn't be able to get away with using these machines in the first place if the media was doing its job properly. For example, how much national coverage was given to the ongoing problems of non-existent security and glitches in the vote-tabulating software? Or the political/$$ entanglements with the corporations behind the machines?

I learn lots about the Laci Peterson case and the Michael Jackson allegations by watching cable/network news. Everything I NEED to know about Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia I learned online and by watching Democracy Now.

[tngledwebb]

56. True.

And unless the corporate media pushes the vote fraud story like the Michael Jackson story or all the other BS they push, we're f****d.

[rainy]

55. you have a gift for explaining what we already know.

Maybe you should write this up in an article and send it out. This sould be public.

[Chicago Democrat]

47. Maybe so, but I still WANT AN AUDIT!!

GIVE MONEY

[masshole1979]

49. Missing the point completely...

Getting every vote counted is not just about throwing the vote to Kerry. It's about getting every vote counted. That is, in itself, the bedrock of democracy, and if you believe that NBC, CNN, and the rest should be able to inaugurate a president, then go start a movement to get our revered television networks written into the Constitution and see how far you'll get.

The big talking point you should push with people who don't quite believe it's fraud (and of course, this is pretty incredible stuff until you've seen the numbers, and remember, many Americans don't have the requisite education to understand them), is that there were proven irregularities and we need to get to the bottom of it all because the vote is sacred. Just stick with the points raised by the Dem Congressmen who wrote to the GAO. You can push them into making the bigger leaps once they've made the small leaps.

Because ultimately, the president isn't chosen until all the votes have been thoroughly counted, and that hasn't happened yet. Otherwise, we're letting NBC crown the president. And who couldn't be opposed to that?

[rman]

51. no, not "democrats failed" but rather "republicans succeded"

in realizing the next phase of their scam.

[rainy]

53. Come on. They cheated in 2000, and 2002 so they could

have the majority in the house and senate. In my opinion the even got rid of Paul Wellstone to secure his liberal seat. So we must fight the good fight. It will be hard and we will lose some battles but we had better win the war or else we parish.

[tinanator]

54. who's we?

People who accept theft do deserve what they are asking for. People who would stand up and fight for whats right dont. Lucky for you.

[KoKo]

57. People standing at polls from 2 to 8 hours in all kinds of weather and

Early Vote lines stretching for blocks? All those folks just couldn't wait to cast a vote for Bush? :crazy: Don't think so....no way. Only people who really care about an election are going to stand in line like that. What about the Chimp would have fired up Democrats to vote for him that they would stand in line that long?