At one time, I was certain fraud had occured...

[redsoxliberal]

but now it seems that everything has a reasonable explanation...
Cuyahoga county extra votes = solved
florida dem counties voting for bush = solved

what else do we have on them? I know the exit polls thing... but where is our evidence?

Thanks for any and all help.

[StClone]

1. Those pesky exit polls...

are a good thing to keep in mind.

[jsamuel]

2. There is sooooooooooo much more

There is sooooooooooo much. Those things were bonus red hairings.


http://www.wnbc.com/politics/3902820/detail.html

"As the recount progressed on Monday, election workers, closely watched by representatives of the campaigns, compared vote totals recorded on machines with the tallies reported by poll workers on Election Night.

Jonathan Rosen, director of the state Democrats' campaign committee, said Berger told him that nearly every machine had a higher count for Stewart-Cousins than was recorded. However, Spano also gained votes, including 80 from one machine, Rosen said."

If you notice, the vote swung by 1.5% with only 15% of machines being counted. THAT IS HUGE!
That means that if the same ratio keeps up, the vote will change a total of 10%!!!!!!!

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. Reasonable Explanation.

LOL! sniff.

Yep. Question not, citizen. Question not. The chocolate ration will be here soon.

[ParanoidPat]

21. LOL!

Starting to see a lot of new posters wanting to know what evidence "we" have that can help "us". :evilgrin:

And a lot more who are helping tremendously! :toast:

Chocolate you say? mmmmm chocolate! :)

[AmyCrat]

4. Interference by Intimidation

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x39021

[Verve]

5. The Big One! Are "optiscan" counties looking significantly different

from surrounding counties that use other voting methods? I don't know the factual answer to this but I think that is the main reason Bev Harris wants a recount in N.H. (These machines are all over the country!)

[eowyn_of_rohan]

31. Opti-scaM

As I understand it, the votes from the opti-scans were sent to a central computer for tabulation. That is where the hanky-panky probably took place. Some say the Repubs thought, since all eyes would be on the touch-screen machines, which were the ones that had all the bad press before the election, they would pull a clever trick, and hit the opti-scans. But that would have been dumb, because opti-scans have paper trails. (Hopefully. I have this nightmare of repub hacks staying up all night, burning the ballots and coloring in new ones for Bush...). I am wondering if they ACCIDENTALLY hit the optiscans--forgot to differentiate between the ones they SHOULD and should NOT hack!?

Anyway, I posted this somewhere else, but since you are talking opti-scans, here is some more "dirt"!

In the Florida charts, 16 of the counties had results that look as if they had been transposed, or flipped (eg Suwannee Co: 4,236 expected Rep -11,145 actual Rep votes, and 10,035 expected Dem - 4,513 actual Dem votes). All those counties used the opti-scan machines, and Bush won in all 16 counties.

24 Counties had results that looked heavily padded, and/or skimmed, or both. 22 used Opti-scans and 2 used touch-screen. Bush won 22 of the counties (inc the 2 touch-screens counties), and Kerry won only 2.

The remaining 27 counties (unless I missed 1 or a few) had votes that seemed reasonable (or at least somewhat) based on numbers alone. Of those counties, 9 were won by Kerry.There was a mix of OPti-scan and touch screen, which didnt seem to correlate to any pattern...

Bottom line is that in 38 of 40 opti-scan counties with the most messed up, flipped, padded and/or skimmed results, Bush won.

In the 27 counties with results that were reasonably in line with the demographics (that I know of), Kerry won 1/3...

[WhoWantsToBeOccupied]

34. Leaving GOP a face-saving way out?

Very interesting analysis. If they hoped to trick us into challenging the touch-screens while they were screwing with the optical scan machines, they made a huge error.

Your theory dovetails with mine. I have posted this on another thread, but there are so many threads that I want to put this out and get everyone's reaction...

Assume for the moment that the Reps did steal the election.

Assume also that they fear they may be exposed, tarnishing the party's image, ruining careers, and possibly landing people in prison.

The ringleader could tell the GOP lackey running Ohio's election to throw Ohio to Kerry, possibly after reaching a behind-the-scenes agreement not to expose the fraud.

Remember, nothing is yet official in Ohio. And as Ohio goes, so goes the presidency (unless Florida flips first).

If we apply sufficient pressure, Ohio may "stumble upon" more glitches or votes that election officials had hid in a mattress somewhere. The more crap we uncover, the riskier it becomes for the GOP to grab Ohio.

If Kerry had come out accusing the GOP of fraud, he would have left them no face-saving way out of their self-created mess. This might be why they appear interested in learning everything we have uncovered but seem to avoid saying anything in public.

Not sure I believe my own speculation, but it might be a clever strategy. It could also potentially explain the absurd silence of the media and Democratic leadership. Perhaps the media's trying to help both sides broker a peaceful agreement rather than provoke Civil War II. This would also potentially explain why we can't get the raw exit poll data.

Any agreement would likely include other provisions, possibly including avoiding pursuit of the Valerie Pflame matter and other ugly potential scandals. It might also involve an agreement to avoid looking retrospectively at past elections in which, many of us have argued, the Reps may have stolen many more elections, such as those in Georgia 2002. I hope Kerry would not give the Reps a free pass on such things, but letting them off (at least partially) would kind of be like pardoning Nixon. I'm simply speculating about what might happen. Everything above is pure speculation.

[Verve]

40. Wow! Interesting theory.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redsoxliberal]

9. i think you're a freeper.

[ROH]

24. Justify your conception of "wasting time and money".

Bye! :hi:

Edit ... in reply to NJ_Blue

[rman]

39. i think you're a freeper.

-

[Cronus Protagonist]

7. Locked doors at key counting location in OHIO

What were these partisan Republicans doind behind closed doors with access to a central tabulating machine?

Doesn't that bother you even a tiny little bit?

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next business day by first class mail)

[milkyway]

8. It won't be obvious. If they hacked machines to add 5% to bush in every

state, how would we know?

I looked at some of the Dixiecrat counties in Florida. bush had 69% in one county where he had 59% in 2000. 69% seems within reason, but so would 64%. How would we know if they had added 5%?

Hopefully, Bev and her FOI requests can discover something.

[jsascj]

12. They would only have to add on average about 70,000

to each state to win. That's not much when you divide it between all of the precincts.

[redsoxliberal]

10. I BELIEVE!!!!!!!!!! You have re-convinced me. those motherfuckers stole it

[jsascj]

11. The exit polls are RIGHT...

Why would this year's exit polls be so different from any other year? Why would they suddenly be so wrong when in the past they have been right? They complained about Florida in 2000 when Gore actually did win FL...polsters just didn't take into account the butterfly debacle.

[RaulVB]

13. Careful with the so called "explanations"

The BIG issue is exit polls vs vote counting, BTW.

[Jack_Dawson]

14. Kerry 52 Bush 47 Final Ohio Exit Poll

Exit Polls are deadly accurate.

[jsascj]

15. Karl Rove got a little greedy in Ohio

Maybe...hopefully too greedy.

[RaulVB]

17. That's what I say

They are in a huge problem now. Rove's numbers were the ONLY "ACCURATE" FIGURES ON NOVEMBER 2ND.

[txindy]

16. How many "reasonable explanations" have we had @ the lack of WMD?

I lost track.

They're trying to cover what they've done. "Nothing to see here! Move along?" :eyes: They think we're not going to catch them. They're wrong. And not too bright.

[Carolinian]

18. It's more a case of casting doubt on the voting process especially on

the possibility (not probability) of fraud. The story needs to get to the point that Americans see just how easy it is to fix an election on these machines.

[glugglug]

19. Cuyahoga county = NOT SOLVED

Not by a long shot. I can buy the FL small county explanation though.

The BIGGEST problem IMO, which the media has chosen to almost completely ignore, is the rollover and "counting backwards" (probably really counting negative), after 32767 votes in a touch screen precinct (Happened in Broward, about half a dozen other FL counties using the same system, don't know how many other STATES). Only affected ammendment decisions my ass. Think about it, such a bug will only affect population centers - democrat territory.

[PATRICK]

20. The overt Ohio challenges if any

will be narrow. The context, now buried entails theories that Bev has researched involving possible optiscan tabulations going back many years. It will take a lot of math, presuming unreliability to track results like that for some technologies and into the dim recesses of changing demographics and political scenes. Work that should have been done and reviewed long before had any of the DNC wonks cared about the "push" to the right.

Face it, Kerry has limited good options and they won't look good to the shut down media. We have scattered bigger stories here and there, false alarms, incompletes, totally lost evidence and Bev and Nader and a few other riding around the landscape.

If one thing proves we are not a professional political site but a loose association of much raw talent, this is it. The public needs clear answers and avenues. Mostly things are multiplying like rabbits in diverse places and we go are merry way piling things together. The best service we can do besides what we are doing is to point to or present ourselves a simple, broad and current picture of the danger, the proof and the crime. Facing the media down will mean more than hoping there are enough chads out there somewhere with the clock ticking.

It would be nice to have a Fraud Underground or something to cure our own site for the attention we are getting, to see live people freeform discussing, analyzing, researching events as they occur, where other websites are mostly bare news reportage or punditry.

That's probably as clear as mud.

[DELUSIONAL]

22. Rove's PsyOps program is working!

The biggest evidence are ALL the errors are in bushie's favor -- NONE in Kerry's favor -- this is statistically impossible.

Errors should break about 50/50 between both candidates -- if the errors are legitimate.

Also the exit polls are reliable --

Another thing the Rove spin -- they keep coming up with different reasons why the exit polls are wrong and why the votes went suddenly for bush.

This is a clear indicator that they are lying -- just like they lied about the WMD.

Same pattern -- they are liars.

You are being lied to -- stop watching the corporate media! They are delivering pure Rove PsyOp propaganda.

Then there is the BBV connected to the internet -- and the KNOWN problems of hacking.

Are you stupid or something?

[jsascj]

23. That's another thing that is ...troubling

It's almost as though the election and subsequent fraud never happened. What happened to REPORTING. When did the media jump into bed with Bush. So much for the "Liberal Media".

[buzzard]

32. Media

The media is in bed with corporate America and Bush is good for big corporations. Much of the main stream media is controlled by big business.

[AmyCrat]

33. Media Blackout

http://www.counterpunch.org/swanson11082004.html
(snip)
Specific evidence of miscounting has been uncovered. And, despite the national media's near-blackout of the issue, local reporting has documented some of the problems. In fact, although you won't learn it from the corporate media, three members of Congress have asked the General Accounting Office to investigate irregularities with voting machines in the November 2 election. The Congress Members, John Conyers, Jerrold Nadler, and Robert Wexler, cited a few of the problems that have already arisen, including a machine in a single Ohio precinct awarding Bush an extra 3,893 votes...

[newyawker99]

41. Hi buzzard!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Jack_Dawson]

35. Prrrrty much

I would love to say Rove has been outed, but that would be too easy...

[Carolab]

25. Gee you're easy

I see they have brainwashed you.

Don't believe it.

[silverlining]

26. The issue isn't whether or not there was fraud

the issue is that we have no systematic way of determining
whether or not there was fraud.  Without replicable results
our democracy is as ephemeral as the static electricity on the
polling place carpet. 

[yourout]

27. Touch screen rigging.

Being a newbie I can not start a thread. Coming from an IT background and having a fair amount of experience with industrial touchscreens. The odds of all the various screens selecting Bush when you press Kerry is very, very very unlikely to be caused by calibration errors. Furthermore Bush being selected when a straight democratic ticket is selected could only be caused by intentional programming. I am not prone to conspiricy theories but this whole thing stinks to high heaven.

[Spiffarino]

29. Welcome to DU

Great screen name.

:toast:

[yourout]

30. Thanks ....

Been a baseball ump for many years.

[Jack_Dawson]

36. "High Heaven" indeed

This thing stinks beyond that. Florida's results alone are putrid beyond this planet.

[newyawker99]

42. Hi yourout!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[EndElectoral]

28. 7% Turnout in one precinct that went 45 to 1 Kerry? Solved...not!!!

[bullimiami]

37. rsl. you can come up with a plausible excuse for anything

in retrospect.
this does not make these the facts.

if they hand count the florida optical scan counties the lame story of those black dems voting overwhelmingly for bush will be blown open.

[rman]

38. solved? then what are the explanations?

where is your evidence for these so called solutions?