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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:32 AM
Original message
Pastor: “I don’t need to know how the machines were hacked” (EAH report)
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 12:34 AM by Amaryllis
MEDIA CONSPICUOUSLY ABSENT FROM HOUSTON ELECTION ASSESSMENT HEARING

Citizens must once again “BE THE MEDIA” to spread the truth!
by Vickie Karp, Black Box Voting/Coalition for Visible Ballots

Once again, the Fourth Estate has failed the American public: the press, as well as mainstream media in general, failed to show up to cover an historic hearing on the REAL, DOCUMENTED facts about election fraud in November 2004 which were presented at a citizens’ organized hearing in Houston last Wednesday, June 29th. The hearing was held one day before the James Baker/Jimmy Carter Federal Election Reform Commission hearing, which election reform groups agree has successfully avoided confronting the truth about election fraud in this country to this date.

The exceptions were two local KPFT radio journalists, Pokey Anderson and Lisa Cohen, and one Houston IndyMedia representative Lorie Kramer. Otherwise, no media deemed it important enough to cover the amazing evidence put forward by technical experts, journalists, attorneys, and citizens from across the country that could leave no doubt that the Presidential election of 2004 was stolen.

The event was organized by Houstonian Kip Humphrey and his wife Carol who have refused to “just get over ” the results of last year’s election. Kip has been active in election reform since studying the Hart InterCivic machines used in Harris County (Houston) and watching as his son cast his first vote on what Humphrey believes to have been a compromised voting system. Kip discovered a machine exploit designed to deny John Kerry untold numbers of votes, documented reports of which he found in every county in the country where Hart Intercivic eSlate voting machines were placed. Voters attempting to cast a straight Democratic ticket ("Vote Democratic Slate" option) reported that the machine failed to register a vote for John Kerry, sometimes registering a vote for George Bush, sometimes a vote for a third party, sometime registering no vote for president at all.

When he voted, Kip tested for this exploit and found that the machine exploit capitalized on voter impatience. When initially voting, the machine's scroll wheel was calibrated to 17 rotations to scroll down the ballot. In reviewing the ballot prior to casting a vote, the ballot opened at the very bottom with the scroll wheel calibrated to take 25 turns to scroll to the very top of the ballot where the incorrect vote for president could be found. Furthermore, registering a vote for president required correcting the vote twice, scrolling through the entire ballot each time before confirming a vote was registered for Kerry. Humphrey refuses to stand by, do nothing, and let his children inherit a corrupt voting system. This is the third major election reform event he and Carol have organized. The first was the “51 Capital March” of December 12th last year, which resulted in 41 states holding protest rallies at their capitals, denouncing the results of November’s election and petitioning state electors to demand an investigation of the 2004 vote. Largely unknown to the public, for the first time in US history, 4 slates of state electors passed such resolutions. Kip opened the Hearing.

The Election Assessment Hearing had the format of a Congressional hearing. Expert presenters gave testimony from a table facing the stage, where panelists sat to receive the information. The panel consisted of: Larry English, Hearing Chairperson and president of INFORMATION IMPACT. English is a renowned authority on information quality processes; Marybeth Kuznik, a 15 year poll worker from Pennsylvania; Eve Roberson, a retired elections supervisor from Santa Rosa, California; Seth Johnson, information quality improvement specialist from New York (and Hearing Vice-Chairperson); and Tom Oswald, a civil and commercial mediator from Ohio. The venue was the Garden Center at Hermann Park. As Hearing Chair Larry English noted in his opening remarks, this was the first time our election process has been reviewed by true information quality management principles.

The hearing was multi-purpose: to illuminate critical information about November’s election which had not yet been addressed by the Baker/Carter Commission; to assimilate a written record of testimony given by experts that day to present to the Baker/Carter Commission at their meeting the following day; and to compile a CD of this data along with other relevant election data submitted by experts who were not able to attend the day’s event. The CD will be sent to Secretaries of State nationwide, to aid them in their critical decisions regarding the purchase of election systems. The states have been put under pressure by a January 1st, 2006 deadline set forth by the so-called “Help America Vote Act”, which promises significant federal funds to the states in exchange for their upgrading voting equipment.

Many believe that HAVA, in its demand for voting systems that will allow the disabled a private vote, has provided a careless rush on the part of the states to purchase paperless electronic voting systems. Such systems received a severe critique at the Hearing by researcher and journalist Bev Harris of Black Box Voting, who has successfully executed numerous hacks on such systems which all resulted in the “flipping” of elections from one candidate to another in a matter of 60 seconds or less and completely without detection. More on that to follow.

The Hearing brought forth a wealth of information that the general public would probably find shocking, given the massive “blackout” of media coverage on vote fraud. Just a few highlights from some of the speakers:

Bob Fitrakis began his testimony citing case after case of voter disenfranchisement and illegal behavior by election workers in Ohio. Fitrakis holds a Ph.D in Political Science and a J.D. from Ohio State University; is a political science professor at Columbus State Community College, and the editor of the Free Press and freepress.org. He was one of the four attorneys in the Moss v. Bush case that challenged the Ohio election results. He served as an Election Protection Legal Advisor for two wards in the city of Columbus on November 2, 2004, and has recently edited a book entitled, “Did George W. Bush Steal America’s 2004 Election? Essential Documents”.

Among some of the startling data he presented: an estimated 34,000 former felons in Ohio were given incorrect information by public officials regarding voting; (Ohio re-enfranchises felons once they have served their time.) Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell issued a ruling that any voter registration on anything but 80 bond cardboard stock would be invalid (ruling later reversed due to public outcry); absurd design of absentee and provisional ballots, leading to many accidental votes for Bush; private parties processing voter registration; 3 ½ hour waits to vote, frequently in the wrong line, which led to many voters leaving due to time constraints; arbitrary and last-minute switching of polling places; threats of arrest to international voting observers; pre-punched ballots (votes pre-cast for Bush); double counting of absentee ballots. This is just a partial sampling of the documented data presented by Fitrakis to this Hearing panel.

Reverend Bill Moss of Ohio, the lead litigant in the now famous “Moss vs. Bush” lawsuit which attempted to overturn the results of the Ohio presidential election, testified to the panel about voter discrimination experienced by his family, as well as many others, in Ohio in November. “A great crime has been committed against the American people,” Moss stated in his testimony, “and it’s not enough to say that we will prevent this from re-occurring. We must address the cause of the crime”. Moss decried the lack of sufficient voting machines in minority districts, rampant “dirty tricks” committed by election officials in Franklin County, Ohio, and described his surprise upon seeing the five squad cars parked conspicuously at his polling place. He wondered: “Why are the police here? Who are they here to protect?” The only logical answer was that police were there to intimidate voters in his primarily minority district. Moss added that democracy is more at risk today because of election fraud than at any other point in his lifetime.

Dr. Richard Hayes Phillips, retired college professor from New York, and twice a recognized expert in federal proceedings, had analyzed 2004 election results at the precinct level in fifteen Ohio counties. He was a leading statistician in the Moss v. Bush lawsuit. In his Hearing testimony, Phillips identified three major problems with the Ohio election: voter suppression; votes cast but not counted; and alteration of the vote count. He gave excellent examples from each category.

Echoing some of Fitrakis’s examples of voter suppression, he also added: long-time residents removed from the voting polls; broken voting machines (“they’ve been like this all day!”…poll workers said ;) polling stations running out of ballots and turning people away; voters sent back and forth between polling places; long lines not designated by precinct causing people to wait for hours in the wrong line.

Statewide, there were 35,000 provisional ballots and over 92,000 regular ballots that were not counted as votes for president. Most of these are punch card ballots, and are highly concentrated in precincts that voted overwhelmingly for Kerry by margins of: 12 to 1 in Cleveland, 7 to 1 in Dayton, 5 to 1 in Cincinnati,, 4.5 to 1 in Akron, etc. Phillips says, “This cries out for an examination of the uncounted ballots and the machines that failed to count them.”

Quoting Phillips: “In Miami County, after 100% of the precincts had reported, more than 18,000 votes were added to the totals.” “In Mahoning County, the Board of Elections reported that 20 to 30 touch screen machines had to be recalibrated because votes were being counted for the wrong candidates. Voters had to scroll through as many as FIVE TIMES before their choice for president was registered. In some precincts, machines failed to record votes for Kerry and defaulted to no choice at all. In other precincts, touch screens were programmed to default to Bush unless the voter successfully overrode the default choice.” All of this led to his pushing for a criminal investigation into the Ohio election, something that is yet to occur.

Dr. Phillips’ closing remark was notable: “It is my professional opinion, having exhaustively examined the available evidence, that the 2004 presidential election was stolen.”

Bev Harris of Black Box Voting gave detailed and expert testimony, some of the most shocking of the day related to electronic voting. She first gave a brief history of her accidental discovery in 2003 of the Diebold company’s election software on the internet (the second largest voting machine vendor in the country) while researching for her book, “Black Box Voting: Ballot Tampering in the 21st Century”. After downloading and studying the software along with computer programming experts, “stunning security flaws” were discovered which she called “a virtual handbook on how to tamper with an election using this software”.

Since that time Harris has pushed forward an aggressive agenda of vote fraud research, unveiling that a felon with a four year prison record named Jeffrey Dean was the senior programmer for Global Election System which was later purchased by Diebold, and was kept on there as a consultant; demonstrated along with several world class computer programmers and security engineers at two Washington D.C. press conferences last fall six different hacks possible to “flip” election results on both Diebold and Sequoia machines; sent out over 3000 “Freedom of Information Act” (FOIA) requests to every county in American requesting election records for November’s elections; was handed fake precinct totals by election officials in Volusia County, Florida and then discovered the real totals in a garbage bag outside the building; and also sued Theresa LePore, then-election supervisor of Palm Beach County, for failure to provide the requested “FOIA” requested election documents.

More recently, Harris was invited by Ion Sancho, Election Supervisor from Leon County, Florida, to attempt hacks on real election equipment using Diebold systems. Sancho wanted to see if his Diebold system was as secure as the state officials and Diebold company claimed. Harris invited two world-class computer programmers and security engineers, Dr. Herbert Thompson, of Florida, and Dr. Harri Hursti of Finland to execute the attempts. Within 90 seconds they had broken into the system and changed the vote totals any way they wanted. Harris claims, “The architecture of the Diebold Optical Scan voting system inherently supports the alteration of results,” and added Hursti’s remark: “If you liken the security of this system to a house with a door, this is like a house with an unlockable revolving door”, and called it a voting system designed for “flexibility, not security”. The programmers executed three separate “rigs” in less than five minutes; wrote their own program and fed it into the machine. The number of exploits possible with this design is “staggering”, said Harris.

Harris called into question U.S. computer programmers who have been studying this software for the past few years, asking, “Who knew about this, and when did they know it?” …and, “What did election systems certifiers know, and when did they know it?” Paul Craft, a Florida state election systems certifier, has already admitted when asked that he knew of the above stated flaws in Diebold software, and told no one.

Harris concluded her shocking testimony with the statement that, “Without 100% hand-counted paper ballots, you’ll never find the hack”. Elections held with paper ballots, hand-counted would have approximately four to five “attack vectors”, according to Harris, while any election held with electronic voting equipment has as many as 50 or 60.

When asked by a panelist, “Is there any way you believe this software could be repaired, or printers added, that would give it security and integrity?” her answer was a definitive “NO!”.

Lynn Landes is one of the nation's leading journalists on the subject of voting security. She is and has been for years an ardent supporter of PAPER ONLY/NO MACHINES/NO ABSENTEE ELECTIONS. She has filed two federal lawsuits challenging the use of voting machines and absentee voting in elections for public office. Lynn’s articles and research can be seen at her website www.EcoTalk.org .

In her testimony, Landes stated that transparency is the most critical feature that should be demanded in the election process. In her research, she has found problem incidents with electronic voting that go back as far as the ’80’s. She stated that voting should be a public process, and that instead our own country has made voting a “privatized, mechanized system, a clandestine back-room process.”

Once considered a radical even among voting activists for her stand on “paper ballots ONLY”, Landes noted that this position is now gaining popular support. “PAPER BALLOTS, HAND-COUNTED ON ELECTION NIGHT—it’ll take about 12 hours. It is not rocket science, and it’s not expensive!” she declared. “This is the only option we have left that is transparent”, citing the total lack of integrity in our current voting systems.

Hearing participants and audience noted with interest that three newcomers appeared around 2pm who were later introduced as Robert Pastor, the Executive Director of the Carter/Baker Commission, and two other Commission senior staff members, Kay Stimpson and John Williams. Pastor requested a summary of events up to that point in the Hearing, which was almost laughable to several of us, as it would be akin to trying to summarize “War and Peace” in 60 seconds or less. Nonetheless, Co-Chair Seth Johnson did a commendable job of doing just that. Pastor requested and was granted a few minutes to make some remarks.

He made an attempt to create common ground by giving his own background in voting rights and election reform work, crediting himself as being one of the creators of the Help America Vote Act, (Thank you?!) and stated that “the most important element is that we are trying to improve our voting systems”.

Upon the conclusion of Pastor’s somewhat predictable, though amiable remarks, Chairperson Larry English asked the audience if there were any questions. When Lynn Landes, Bev Harris, Robert Hayes Phillips, and others lined up at the side of the room, the rest of us had an idea about what was about to ensue. As for Pastor, he appeared clueless. But he soon took on a “deer in the headlights” look as the questions began: He could not aptly answer Landes’ question about why major voting machine vendors’ ties to the Republican party had not been addressed by his commission; when asked by Harris why she and her team who had executed hacks on the voting systems had not been invited to testify, his response was “I don’t need to know how the machines were hacked,”; when Phillips stated his qualifications and his analytical conclusion that the election was stolen, and asked if he was going to be invited to testify before the Baker Carter Commission, and if not, why not, Pastor’s response was “We don’t need such detailed information. We are trying to keep our focus on more generic issues.”

Such was our comic relief for the day. But don’t expect to see any of this on mainstream media. It’s just not important enough!

Many thanks to all the organizers, our many wonderful presenters, and panelists. JOB WELL DONE!

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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. It was stolen
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. What ? The election?
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. The election was stolen ! Thanks so much Amaryllis



Keep this important information coming for us.

The stolen election and the way that it was done, I don't care who exposes it, needs to be exposed.
Unless we get the lack of paper trail fixed nothing is right in America.

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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. Hurumph! A Harris PR person?
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 12:37 AM by saracat
This is not a real report. Anything associated with Harris is suspect. Credibility is doubtful.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. This report was reviewed and approved by a number of people who were at
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 12:39 AM by Amaryllis
the hearing.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. But Harris is no longer welcome at DU.
Many at DU feel that she destroyed her crdibility with her actions. The way Andy was treated alone make her behavior suspicious. Promotion of Bev makes many uncomfortable as they feel they were taken advantage of.
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thjay Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Don't shoot the messenger
This was a really good report, very informative. I've followed the Bev-Andy saga here on DU. I'm not apologizing for Bev. She sounds like a power hungry ego maniac. BUT she continues to work on election reform and investigation into electronic voting machines. That is a good thing.

Don't automatically discount every report you read that has Bev's name attached to it. Be objective. Take what you can from the report and question only the details that you suspect.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. This isn't about the messenger. This report seems to be affiliated with he
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 01:09 AM by saracat
organization. Her organization is not credible.Any report initiated from an affiliate of Bev Harris is automatically not credible. The lies that were posted on her site support the lack of credibility of her organization.I discount any report that is generated by MS. Harris.
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starmaker Donating Member (520 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. This is an accurate report of EAH
It was peer reviewed by those at the hearing and is credible.I was there and
am grateful for her work to put out this report.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Thank you for your comment and for taking
part in the hearing! I am so grateful to everyone working on this. Do you have any idea what would have to happen to get this issue pushed out into the corporate media (TV, radio,...)?

Welcome to DU! :hi:
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starmaker Donating Member (520 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Get the issue out
Forget corporate media.
Grassroots all the way.
Any ideas?
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
27. Accurate YES, but NOT ALL-INCLUSIVE
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 08:07 AM by demodonkey
There were many excellent presenters, too many to include everything in one article. And MANY different viewpoints and electoral issues (other than just hand-counted paper ballots) were presented.

It was a wonderful, educational day filled with much information about our electoral process. Be sure to watch for the full transcripts and final reports. Will be an excellent and diverse body of knowledge for anyone interested in the many ways our elections can be improved.

http://www.electionassessment.org

Election Assessment Hearing Presenters

Issues Identified in Electoral Processes:
Rev. Bill Moss, Plaintiff, Moss v. Bush
Bob Fitrakis, Editor, Free Press
Richard Hayes Phillips, Legal Statistician
Richard Winger, Ballot Access Expert
Kathy Dopp, US Count Votes
Judy Alter, Election Investigator
David Griscom, Adjunct Professor, Materials Science and Engineering

Impact of Digital Voting Systems on Electoral Processes:
Bev Harris, Black Box Voting

Causes for Electoral Process Issues and Recommended Solutions:
David Cobb, Green Party Presidential Candidate
Linda Curtis, Independent Texans
Lynn Landes, Freelance Journalist
Jo Anne Karasek, CASE Ohio, J-30
Cynthia Test, Coalition for Election Integrity
Heleni Thayre, Citizens for Voting Integrity
Sharona Merel, National Ballot Integrity Project
David Wager, Verifiable Votes Coalition of Houston
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. I agree. This report was reviewed and approved by others at the
conference. Don't automatically discount anything associated with BBV.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:49 AM
Original message
Excellent report Amaryllis keep them coming...Thanks...nt
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. DUPE
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 12:51 AM by kster
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
9. Very nice exploit!
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 01:26 AM by Bill Bored
Also possible with the Diebold junk, among other things.

If there's a summary screen, the voter might notice, but if you have to scroll through the whole ballot to see the change, that's brutal!

This is why we need 100% bi-partisan auditing of ALL ballot definition programming!

Oh and I saw a report that said disabled voters really liked that little wheel thingy on the ESlate. Someone really needs to TALK TO THESE PEOPLE.

Well done Kip!

Thanks for posting Amaryllis!
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Kip Humphrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I watched voters voting for an hour and only two took the amount of time
It took to correct my vote after selecting "Vote Democratic Slate". Addi tonally, we were surrounded by liberal teachers a we voted at 3:30pm and many teachers showed up after school let out. There was little question from conversations and attitudes i line that most intended to vote for Kerry.

The untold thousands, perhaps millions, of votes lost to Kerry due to this exploit is indicative of the degree to which our elections have been co-opted by the power to control the outcome of our elections digital voting systems provide. Whether by intent or by sloppy incompetent design (of coarse, Hart blames the voters for using the machines incorrectly! - the nerve of these people!), machines like the Hart Intercivic stole and continue to steal our voices and the will of the people. DIGITAL VOTING SYSTEMS CANNOT BE TRUSTED! Therefore, neither can our elections.

Imagine how I felt watching my son vote in his first election on these crooked machines! We cannot let this stand. This is not the legacy I will leave to my children. I will not rest until we regain our voices and our democracy.

BAN THE MACHINE!

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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Right Kip!
And the interesting thing about this is that it was probably just a configuration "error" having nothing to do with proprietary s/w, etc. They could say the BoE programmed the ballot definitions incorrectly, if indeed they were programmed by the BoE at all and not outsourced.

I think this sort of thing is quite common and has received very little attention, relatively speaking. It shows that open source code is not the panacea that some make it out to be, not that there's anything wrong with it. We need to audit the ballot definitions BEFORE the election!

So what did Pastor mean when he said he didn't need to know how the machines were hacked? Was it an implicit admission that they HAD been hacked, or did he just mean to trivialize the whole notion? It's one thing to say he doesn't need to see every line of code personally, for example, but quite another to say that the whole idea is wrong. What do you think he meant?

Thanks for organizing this important event!
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Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. No Ballot Definitions necessary. No software necessary.
Paper ballots. Markers. Glass locked boxes. Counting in public.

Oversight by independent audit groups of EVERY election.

Hard to know what Pastor meant. Bev Harris and others were demanding to know why he wasn't seeking testimony from them. Specifically on how the hack on the Diebold optical scan in Leon County, Florida was accomplished.

He said the Carter/Baker Commission was a private group seeking to making GENERIC recommendations on elections, and didn't need to know specifics of how something was hacked.
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Chi Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
12. Thank you Amaryllis!! A very nice write up. n/t
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
14. KICK.NT
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
17. Oh, wow! You backed Pastor up against the
wall and grilled him? Go, team! I'd love to get Chuck Herrin and Avi Rubin and Rebecca Mercuri in a room with Pastor -- if details about the voting systems confuse him, he'd pass out listening to these three.

To everyone who made this hearing happen, again -

:yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
18. Thank you for this excellent report - is there a link to an online site
with additional information or a copy of this report?
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. No link yet. I expect there will be. This was sent via email. I'm sure
someone who attended will post a link when it becomes available.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Link available now:
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Thank you!
...and :kick:
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
24. Amaryllis, great report. Thank you.
This is amazing. We'll have a free press in America some day but until then, we have to share this sort of thing in any way we can.

Professor Pastor will need to live with himself for his behavior in this matter.
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pgh_dem Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. maybe pastor needs to hear from another "6 or 7 people" ? n/t
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Apparently the last six or seven didn't do the trick. Maybe 12 0r 13?
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. You got that right
the more I spread the truth, to the people that are not in the know, they are starting to believe me, and starting to ask questions about the media.

Most recent from a couple people,they can't believe I've sent them so many reports from professors and Phd's on the 2004 election theft, and yet nothing has been on TV, they said those professers and Phd's can't all be wrong.

They are starting to question the TV media.

KEEP PUSHING..........
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
30. kick.nt
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