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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 12:14 PM
Original message
LA TIMES editor on lack of 2000 & 2004 vote rigging & suppression stories
I've had an ongoing email exchange with the California editor of the LA Times about their non-existent to tepid coverage election abuses, and this is his latest response.

He finally got to the point of saying he COULD NOT explain the very belated coverage of black voter disenfranchisement in Florida except to say it was too low on someone's to do list.

In discussing the difference between the Ukraine and here, he mentions suspicious turnout levels of 98% were a bigger factor than the exit polls although exit polls became the signature of the story since it was the piece that came out first. I seem to remember 100% plus turnout figures in some precincts. Does anyone have the specifics and authoritative sourcing on that?

You can see more of this exchange on my blog:

http://professorsmartass.blogspot.com/






From: David Lauter(LA Times California editor)
Subject: RE: exit polls and evoting
Date: May 26, 2005 8:01:22 PM PDT
To: yurbud, aka Professor Smartass


I have no idea why we were so late in covering the story about black voters in Florida. If I had to guess--and this is only a guess--I'd guess the usual answer, which is never particularly satisfactory: it was on someone's list to do, and they just didn't get to it fast enough. No one (including us) ever likes that answer, but generally when we're late on stories, that's what it is. There's always a lot to do and never enough people to do it all, and sometimes folks just make bad decisions on what to do first.

You asked which pollsters I think are reliable -- there are actually several. Gallup is generally pretty good, so are the three major media polls (CBS/NYT, WashPost/ABC and our own LATimes Poll). Mason/Dixon does a lot of polls for local TV stations around the country and tends to do them with small samples to make them inexpensive. As a result, they're often not very good. Zogby got a big reputation because he was very close to the mark on the 1996 Clinton/Dole election, and Republicans, in particular, thought he was great because he didn't have Clinton as far ahead as some others did. But his overall track record is very mixed, and his methodology is questionable. (If you're interested in the details, there was a good profile of Zogby in the New Yorker back in the fall; it's available from the magazine's web site). No one's right all the time and even a blind pig gets a truffle every now and then.

As for the exit poll issue. The Ukrainian exit poll showed Yuschenko with a 54%-43% lead -- and those were final results, not preliminary -- as compared with the official results that showed Yanukovich with the victory margin you noted. But that was hardly the whole of it. There was widespread evidence of significant irregularities. To give just one example of many, there was the district in the Donetsk region that reported a turnout of more than 98% (compared with 75% in the first round of voting) and an overwhelming margin for Yanukovich. The exit poll came first and therefore got the headlines, but it was concrete evidence of widespread, large-scale fraud that brought about the reversal of the election. The election was more than six months ago now, and lots of people--including reporters from this newspaper and others--have spent huge amounts of time examining it. No one's come up with anything in Ohio (or other states) that comes close to the sort of irregularities that were glaringly apparent in Ukraine within days.

Does that conclusively prove that nothing was amiss? No. You can't ever prove a negative. There's always a chance there's something that everyone's overlooked, or something so well hidden that no one's found it despite extensive searching. But I doubt it. In such things, I'm a staunch believer in Occam's razor.





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libertypirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. You should ask him to look into the 3 million vote discrepancy
between how many people the census says voted and how many people the house clerk said voted.

Then send him here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x372831

BTW: I think this GLITCH is a lousy excuse.

If I had to guess--and this is only a guess--I'd guess the usual answer, which is never particularly satisfactory: it was on someone's list to do, and they just didn't get to it fast enough.

He takes no responsibility for his double speak answer.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. Have to chk that blog sometime, but meanwhile,
have you ever asked him about the LA Times' own National Exit Poll (as I bite my tongue for advocating the wasting of more precious brain power on this)? :)

But seriously, did you know they did one?

It was heavy on CA, but it was national.

They came up with a result similar to Mitofsky in the end, but how about their RAW DATA? If he's serious about this, maybe he'd be willing to release that to USCV or some of our own DU Exit Poll Aficionados.

One key factor in Bush's "win" of the popular vote was that Repubs outnumbered Dems in the Western region, or so we are expected to believe from Mitofsky's poll. The midnight run had more Dems and than Repubs, while the 11/3 adjusted version totally reversed this! Is this something that the LA Times picked up on?

At the very least, you could compare the CA results which I'm sure would have small MoEs in both polls.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. When I read Mitofsky report, numbers looked like DU floaters
pretty much the same as the unauthorized ones that were floating around here. They admitted the numbers but just added lame excuses.
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pgh_dem Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. That guy sure has a great implementation of Occam's Razor
It really is the simplest explanation to say "Nothing happened" when you never give an honest look at the evidence.

Lazy, lying garbage. Par for the course in the corporate media.

Lemme guess, his extensive searching includes, "I called my friend, who visited Ohio, he says NO FRAUD."

and "Yes, it was the same friend who told me there was nothing wrong with disenfranchising thousands of African American voters in Florida in 2000...why do you ask?"
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. People misuse Occam's Razor all the time. It's a HUGE pet peeve of mine
Occam's razor should only be applied to theories of equal validity.
In other words, if faced with (say) two theories of equal validity, choose the simplest.
It has no application in the election fraud situation, or politics in general, because (but not limited to) it does not take into account any actual agendas.
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myschkin Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. Why
Edited on Fri May-27-05 02:13 PM by myschkin

he didn´t wrote a piece on the Conyers Report (and now the new book) if he is concerned about democracy? Gore Vidal says clearly: Ohio was stolen... This should be at least a front page full side article...

For your info (and also that of your editor): Even the OSZE commission which watched the elections will meet John Conyers... (and take the whole thing in their report)
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I'm sending him Conyers report and some of the other tidbits I saw
ten GOP poll watchers who had to be chased off by cops (on video)

the fake terror report to get rid of election monitors planned a week in advance.

anything else fairly simple and easily digestible I can think of by the time I send it Sunday.
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. The OSCE is meeting with Conyers?
That is good news!
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myschkin Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Yes!!

Yes, I already emailed it to Coilin. Barbara Haering, which is the leader of the OSCE watchers group emailed us that she want to meet John Conyers in July. She couldn´t build in a lot of his report in their official report because there was a big time pressure of the U.S. and she received these informations just recently. But she is now informed ... and I guess her view will change. I emailed her also a lot about the other facts (like the double function of Blackwell a.s.o.). It´s a true highlight - and I have to thank my friend Daniel, who wrote to her.

Not Barbara Boxer, Barbara Hearing will be the new star... ;-)

Maybe you post this at DU - I hadn´t time yet...

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AtLiberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
7. 100 percent voter turnout?
Heck, there were precincts and counties with much higher turnouts than 100 percent. Wasn't there a county in Ohio with more votes than the county's collective population over the past century? That "glitch" was caught. I'm far more concerned about the below-the-radar glitches...those subtle shavings.
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KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Wyoming had 106% turnout -- because, they said
they had "same day registration" **


Results http://soswy.state.wy.us/election/profile.htm

http://www.rense.com/general60/106.htm

and this site states numbers in ohio I've not heard before http://www.netctr.com/election.html

(I though the overvotes were in like one or two machines, not spread out over so many!)



**(I'm still looking for the place I found this quote-- it was posted/linked on Bradblog in November, but I can't get his site up (I sent him the link -- but I din't book mark it -- not doing so great with searching for it right now)
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Fly by night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Which means that, if they had the same registered voter turnout as Ohio...
... (69%, as I remember), that 37% of the Wyoming voters would have had to have registered on Election Day.

The original source for the 106% figure was the Casper Star Tribune. I believe someone told me that Wyoming has now "adjusted" its figures down into the reasonable range (around 70%). But I haven't looked at their SOS website lately.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 03:17 AM
Response to Original message
11. Fuck him, royally.
"It was on someone's list to do and they just didn't get to it."

He is not a journalist, he's a corporate bureaucrat!

What a total asshole!

Thus endeth the sermon.
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. A friend of mine in Ojai had a long conversation w/ an LAT reporter
in November and December. The reporter was very interested and said that info was definitely being gathered and was coming out in a few days.

Finally, what was published was a quite derisive story about Arnebeck and his challenges.

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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
15. The LA Times have been in Bush's pocket since the 2000 Repub Primary
And I have seen no evidence to convince me that they are not still in BushCo.'s pocket.
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