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ZOBGY (an important statement by the most respected polling group)

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hangloose Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:13 PM
Original message
ZOBGY (an important statement by the most respected polling group)
Votergate 2004; We Don't Need Paper to Prove Fraud, But We Do Need Money and Leadership, NOW.



Since last Tuesday there has been a justifiable uproar about the major differences between the exit polls in Ohio and Florida and the actual results. Democrats and Republicans, who both saw the same exit polls that showed an electoral landslide in favor of Kerry, have confirmed this. Investigative reporter Bob Parry confirmed from his sources that the Bush campaign was convinced they were going to lose. George H. W. Bush also confirmed this in an interview with The Today Show. So why have the exit polls been so wrong in the last two elections? It is clear that there must have been manipulation in the voting machines. While there's been a lot of talk of problems with not having paper trails, computer fraud is uncovered most of the time without paper trails.

As a former C.P.A and auditor, I have used statistical sampling throughout my career with great confidence. With electronic record keeping, it's easy to create a program to falsify the books. But there are ways to uncover that. Auditors have developed statistical ways to cut right through corruption in companies. You don't even need a paper trail. These statistical approaches can be used with almost 100% accuracy to uncover fraud. With the votergate 2004 it's a numbers game just like it is with corporate accounting, even easier. All you're talking about is one number-- total votes for each candidate.

There's a huge difference between polling what WILL happen and polling something that has already happened. The reliability of polling something that has already happened is highly reliable vs. predictive polls, like Gallup or Zogby, which is very risky. The reliability can be, not plus or minus 4 percent as we see with predictive poplls, but rather a much more reliable plus or minus one half or one tenth of one percent with exit polls, because those are based on asking people who already voted. I would even say that if the exit polling were done in the key precincts of Florida and Ohio, which it was, then these results should be practically “bullet proof.”

It is important that people know how accurate random sampling of historical events can be in order for them to understand how unlikely it is that the exit polls were wrong. So if you want to fight the battle correctly, you must get more statisticians and forensic accountants involved as well as the lawyers. These statisticians can show with great credibility the probability of manipulation within the computer programs used for counting the ballots. They do this kind of work all the time to uncover fraud based upon computer manipulation in commercial and corporate activities. And these types of expert analyses are admissible in a court of law. The problem with all of this is determining who is going to fund such an investigation. Where will the money come from? Perhaps the Kerry/Edwards campaign fund has some surplus that can be used. It is possible that the DNC has some excess funds. How about the 527s and PACs who spent millions on ineffective political ads, coming up with a few million? In addition, who is going to lead the process of getting this done? This kind of an effort requires solidarity along with an organized coordinated effort. It's easy to come up with the forensic and technical people to get this done, but we need a strong leader and solidarity. Leadership and funding-- these are the two real challenges that must be dealt with in the coming days. We have a Watergate story here that could give the media a post election explosive news story that could make the 2000 Florida vote debacle look like small potatoes. We need to get the media to see that votergate 2004 is huge news and we need to quickly fund the investigation and get Democratic leaders behind it.


(http://www.zogby.com)
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. direct link:
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MidwestTransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:17 PM
Original message
This is not a message from Zogby
did you see who the author is.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. However, zogby saw fit to copy the article onto their site, not link it
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GregD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. This is not Zogby's statement
Look closer, this is an editorial or such. They post various items there.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Zogby has to remain impartial and non-partisan - but his placing an Op-ed
on his site is his way of letting "we the people" follow up and its a call to action...the mere fact that they place it on their site shows that they agree with its conclusions and assumptions...

:kick:
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GregD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I agree
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. So do I... it indicates that he takes the issue seriously
.. which is probably a big call for him to have had to make.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. What kills me...
...all the corpomediawhores citing exit polls to say "moral values" voters took to the booth, and saying exit polls are reliable for demographic information, but not for actual fraud-check and comparison to actual vote tabulation. If it's flawed in one sense, how is it not flawed in the other?
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lizzieforkerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Thant is exactly what I have been screaming at my tv since last Tues!
All of these rep saying exit poll this exit poll that and then saying the exit polls were wrong! Unbelievable!
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MatrixEscape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. Aha!
This is good news. When a major player calls a foul, then that lends more credence to the issue.

I would think Zogby is pissed about this one after their call for Kerry.

Now, we can watch the major media ignore a major item like this one I guess.
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. A couple thoughts
One, Kerry has about $45 million available for recount efforts.

See: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041102/ap_on_el_pr/recount_fund_raising

Two, have the statistical validation techniques you refer to been used in court before? In other words, are these generally accepted as valid in courts of law the way say DNA evidence is?

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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. This is true...possibly more...I worked on fundraising for GELAC....
They money wasn't spent yet...they have it still...I have a lot of pissed off donors who are not happy, especially when I and the Kerry campaign appealed to their already emptied wallets for more with the pretense that it was for the inevitable legal battle....In fact, here's the text of an email that we sent out to people - Oct. 28th (note- two days later the FEC ruled that there was an extension on the deadline beyond Nov. 2nd to raise and collect funds for GELAC):

AN EMERGENCY APPEAL FOR GELAC FUNDS!

With only a few days to go in a very tough race, Mary Beth Cahill, our Campaign Manager has asked that I contact you with one last fundraising request. We need your help to raise an additional $100K in the next few days. Please ask your friends and colleagues to donate any amount they can! We cannot afford to have this election stolen from us! https://contribute.johnkerry.com/gelac.html?team=4602 or fax donor form to (202)712-5000 Attn: Jennifer Pharaoh at campaign headquarters in Washington, DC.

On September 30th,, the Federal Election Commission granted the Kerry-Edwards campaign’s request to raise funds now to cover recount expenses through its General Election Legal and Accounting Compliance Fund (GELAC). This is why this appeal is so timely and so important.

It is absolutely crucial that we fully fund GELAC so we can be prepared in the event of a recount. Given the GOP's unseemly efforts in Ohio and in other battleground states, we now need to raise at least $1.5 million more before Election Day. Your assistance is critical to our success.

In addition to recount expenses, GELAC funds help pay for legal and accounting expenses incurred by the campaign. By paying for these expenses with GELAC funds, the campaign is able to spend more of its limited public funds (the $75mm from the federal government) on vital campaign expenses such as media, candidate travel and direct contact with voters.

To date, our GELAC team has raised approximately $8.5 million out of our $10 million goal. This number has been accomplished with few events and minimal internet fundraising, in an effort to avoid any conflict with Battleground or DNC Victory Fund raisers.

A husband and wife may each contribute $2,000, and because this is a contribution to the General election, primary campaign contributions don’t count against this $2,000.

We cannot raise GELAC contributions after Election Day. I ask that you send your check (and your spouse’s) made out to Kerry-Edwards 2004 GELAC to the following address: Kerry-Edwards 2004 GELAC, Attn: Lori Bonn 901 15th Street NW, Suite 700, Washington, DC 20005 or fax your credit card information to (202)712-5000 to my attention.

We also have launched a special website so donors can contribute to GELAC on-line. Please go to https://contribute.johnkerry.com/gelac.html?team=4602 or www.johnkerry.com/MatrixFillmore .

Thank you again for all of your outstanding efforts on behalf of John Kerry and John Edwards. We need you and John Kerry needs all us to do this last part.

Many thanks, Lori

Lori Bonn

National Finance Chair for Women

Kerry-Edwards 2004


:kick:
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kcwayne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. This article was written by Sheldron Drobney, co-founder Air America Radio
Zogby is not stating this, although the posting of the op-ed is on their web site.

Just wanted to clarify this information.
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Mixxster Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. Direct link:
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