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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 12:44 PM
Original message
The Bev Harris story for newbies and those who have forgotten
I have noticed recently that we have some folk trying to rehabilitate Bev Harris's reputation by explaining away her erratic and toxic behavior as some kind of "misunderstanding".

Access to DU is critical to Bev since it was an important source of cash, helpful researchers and credibility in the past and even more important now that she has been disowned by folks like Randi Rhodes, Keith Olbermann and Mike Malloy.

For those who do not know or have forgotten (or have no access to the archives) the reason Bev was banned from DU, I recommend to you this official post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

The responses to this thread are numerous, but vitally important to read, especially if you are contemplating giving your time or money to Bev Harris and her organization.

Bev painted herself as a liberal activist (lately she strives for the status of a non-partisan) which she is not. She ran an anti-Clinton product site (Bev Dudley is Bev's real name and Talion is her company):

http://web.archive.org/web/19991112034903/http://www.ta...

She claims Bush supports her cause and was currying favor with freepers:

http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/bushbought.htm

She also counts people like Jim March as one of her most invaluable aids (and a board member of her foundation):

Happiness is a confirmed kill
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Diebold is gonna make me rich
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90961...

She invents "crisis situations" where she claims to be attacked by "The Forces of Evil", when nothing of the sort has happened:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

She has routinely smeared fellow activists, allies and colleagues:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/blame_andy.htm
(in this post she fires her staunchest ally for things she herself actually did, not Andy)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

She refused to cooperate with other activists putting her ego ahead of stopping BBV:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Her most egregious sin on DU was her publicly denouncing fellow anti-BBV activists and researchers, accusing them of seeking to profit on "her" work and file a qui tam law suit, when in fact, she herself had done precisely that after swearing she would NEVER do that:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Bev Harris has done more damage to this issue by her pursuit of cash and fame. She has alienated countless reporters in print and TV with her legal threats and abusive rants which makes legitimate activists job that much harder.

Keith Olbermann
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6533008

Randi Rhodes
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/14/182917/13
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

(Bev claimed that Randi's show raised only $23,000 for her. Insiders put the figure at $300,000)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

This is not about opinion or points of view, it is about fact. The links above discredit Bev with her own words. Bev's rebuttals to this evidence is denial, distortion and new lies, either directly on her site or here by proxy.

Bev has damaged people's reputation, cost them large sums of money with her legal bullying (and I am not talking about Diebold and election officials, I am talking about her former activists and helpers) and wasted much of their time dealing with her foolishness. she has impugned the integrity of established liberals on this board and elsewhere and accused even John Kerry and the Democratic party of conspiring to suppress evidence of vote fraud (huh????).

I know I will take heat from some folks for bringing this up again, but unfortunately it needs to be brought up to keep people from wasting time and money on this woman. Bev was banned once, then allowed back on after pledging better behavior. She was then banned again for abusing her fellow DUers and threatening Skinner et al with litigation. To allow proxies to post here and promote her agenda violates the spirit, if not the letter, of the ban. Our moderators have chosen to allow this and I will not fault them (they are trying to be fair). I will, however, rebut her proxies at every opportunity.

Some of the posts above are archived on other sites because Bev has a habit of purging her earlier posts when they contradict her current story or to remove embarrassing statements (Jeff Gannon anyone?).

The above links are by no means exhaustive and others are free to add their own emails, links and experiences. If you are going to defend Bev, please spare us the following:

1) "It doesn't matter if Bev libels people and lies as long as she stops BBV". (the ends justify the means).

Do I really have to explain to liberals why this is immoral?

2) "Bev said..."

We have heard Bev's claims. We have seen no evidence to back up these claims. We have been very careful to document our claims with links, and emails (Bev's own words). The word of someone caught in multiple lies is not "proof".

3) "Bev has saved the world, what have you done?"

*sigh* If you really wanted to know (and I don't think you do) you could avail yourself to Google and find out what we are doing. We never claimed to be saving the world, just fighting paperless voting the best we can.

4) "After all Bev did..."

Bev didn't do it on her own, she had help, LOTS of help. She rewarded the people who helped her by publicly smearing them.

5) "Prove to me that Bev..."

I've posted the proof. Read the links.

6) "No, point me to a summary or specific post that proves your case."

Sorry. Unlike Rush Limbaugh, we require our proofs to be read IN CONTEXT. Anything else would be unfair and deceptive. Reading and thinking is hard work. It's why we are liberals and not freepers.

It is regrettable this is necessary, but Bev's "help" is making our job harder.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. I once was a big supporter of Bev Harris
but I have never been a blind follower of anybody. I think, I watch, I research and then I decide. Sometimes I change my mind, as I did with Bev Harris.

For me, the research led me to remove my support for her. I agree that she is a detriment. I also think she is pretty much marginalized at this point. Am I wrong in that belief?
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. You are correct
in that the mainstream anti-BBV groups are ignoring her. The trouble is the active efforts by her to rebuild her reputation, to "recast" her sins as a trivial misunderstandings.

Her proxies here are "explaining" how she never did what people saw her do and her critics are misguided, ignorant of fact or have an axe to grind. They appeal to folks to avoid divisiveness and join Bev to fight BBV. They praise her efforts and talk about all the wonderful things she did.

Bev is out at "teach ins" and similar events talking to people completely unaware of her actions.

As far as I can tell (and I could be wrong) a lot of the posts about her and her actions which endorsed Bev have been purged from the Mike Malloy and Randi Rhodes site. Randi's contentious exchange with Bev about money and Bev's actions was deleted from Randi's archives (though I have an MP3 for those interested).

I made this post to warn folks that she is still a danger to our cause and it will be interesting to see if the proxies show up to defend her.

That said, not all her defenders are proxies. Some folks refuse to grok the evidence and support for Bev should not be automatically viewed as the words of a proxy.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
62. Factual corrections
Ah -- let's see. Invited to Ohio, people from all over the state attended a 3-hour workshop, representing several groups.

J30 and Ohio Vigilance both in frequent contact, and Black Box Voting participated on a panel last week with Ohio's Bob Fitrakis -- oh yes, and BBV provided funds to the Ohio lawyers to help stave off a sanctions effort.

Hmm -- Volusia County is continuing to develop, and BBV just provided a whole satchel full of new records for local activists there.

Wait -- Palm Beach County Coalition for Election Reform just hosted an event where Black Box Voting was featured, it was covered by the Palm Beach Post, who was impressed at the efforts made by BBV to create a more nonpartisan movement. Oh yes, and the "mainstream rejection" apparently misseed the new supervisor of elections in Palm Beach, Arthur Anderson, who attended a private meeting with Harris and Wynne.

No -- can this be? The Miami-Dade Election Reform group meeting for dinner to discuss strategies and actions?

Woops -- is that SAVE-Democracy in California, and a whole coalition of groups that just hosted five consecutive events with BBV? Oh, wait, mainstream rejection again, San Diego mayor Donna Frye (well, she would have been the mayor except for a technicality) -- she met with Harris last week, promised whatever support she could give on the city council.

Omgosh -- would that be a major teach-in in Los Angeles, with local voting activists -- no, mainstream rejection was omitted again, Maxine Waters was the opening act. Harris participated with Fitrakis, a leader from the Green Party's recount efforts, and a lawyer who also did the bus thing in Ohio.

Sheesh -- those Riverside activists must not have gotten the memo. They had a sold out event which raised and surpassed their goal.

Goodness. No groups will work with Harris anymore, except, well, everyone.

And that, folks, is the most positive thing I've seen in this thread.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #62
136. hmmm...ohhh....gosh...sheesh...
there is NOTHING more annoying than people who feel like they have to write like they speak. Throw a burp or two in there if you were eating a sandwich. Sheesh.
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MichaelHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #62
140. Please don't address us as if we we're children
posts like this are just condescending to say the least. If you want to talk to us about facts just use the facts, the "attitude" implied in your post really just turns me off, not that I would give money to a fraud in the first place. Now sue me.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #140
161. That attitude does more than turn us off, yet again,
it is a scent clue...my nose picked it up. You are right, the attitude taken in that post is condescending to say the least.

SSDD
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #62
174. ...
BBV provided funds to the Ohio lawyers to help stave off a sanctions effort.

How much? And how could BBV contribute when they can't have anything to do with recounts?
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #174
182. And to who?
I keep hearing these claims of donations and they certainly may have occurred, but with Bev I require cancelled checks.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #182
197. I don't think
"baily" will be answering anytime soon.
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demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. I was completely turned off
...when Bev was soliciting non-stop right after the election and seemed to promote the idea she was going to get the election overturned in Florida. And a lot of DUers bought right into it...

I think Randi Rhodes got the same idea as she helped fundraise on her show for a week. I was watching closely and knew there was no way this was going to happen, and I thought it horribly deceptive. Bev of course, came back later and "clarified" that she wasn't trying to overturn the election, but many donations had already been given.

Randi felt so badly burned that she says she will never do anything like that for any progressive organization again. Thanks, Bev, for stealing opportunities for the rest of the progressive community.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. This is one of the ways Bev has hurt US
And by US I mean the liberal community. One of our most ardent supporters now doesn't trust us.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
63. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. You seem to be the only one here posting Bev's BS
Someone contacted the BBV group and said you sounded unhinged and spent the entire conversation obsessing about BlackBoxVoting.org and Bev Harris.

Sure they did.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #63
137. Someone contacted the BBV group and said you sounded unhinged
Sheesh
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Fud Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #63
244. This is outstanding
How someone like bailey without knowing the history at all defends this person. Lemme give you a little hint there. If you fall for everything Bev says then you must be a bush supporter too. Since you listen and believe every claim he puts out. Did she send you out here on a mission or something?

I guess all the tons of links posted of the lies just don't count because you were too lazy and waiting for bev to throw you off the turnip truck.
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #244
245. I think we've all come to the conclusion
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 07:01 PM by ohio_liberal
that bailey77 was actually Bev.

on edit:

forgot to add that bailey77 got the tombstone earlier.
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
64. Accidentally duped my own post
Edited on Tue Mar-08-05 11:14 PM by bailey77
As opposed to duping casual readers of DU with ridiculous crap.

Okay. I'm off to bed. Enjoy your backstabbing, perhaps I'll join the party again tomorrow.

Erin
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Fud Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #64
246. Good idea
Get some sleep because you will need it working for a libertarian that backstabs everyone. Rest up man because you will have to be ready when a woman kicks you in the teeth.

What a joke maybe some dense people still don't know she isn't a democrat.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. I thought she was going to try to get florida overturned...
She even flew Lowell Finley in from California. I had Common Cause volunteers lined up...ready to pick up the FOIA requests. Bev thought they were "infiltrators" and that they could not be trusted. So instead we made many unnecessary trips up and down the highways of Florida. When we could have been auditing the election and gathering the evidence needed to challenge the election.

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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
41. factual errors in above post
Edited on Tue Mar-08-05 08:48 PM by bailey77
Harris never indicated she could get the Florida election overturned, and nonprofit 501c(3) status of Black Box Voting specifically prohibits getting involved in recounts or overturning elections.

Randi Rhodes' fundraiser was not arranged with the knowledge of Black Box Voting, unless Andy Stephenson arranged it in secret. In fact, it was so unexpected that it shut down both the web site and the donation server, with a flurry of $1 and $5 donations.

Randi Rhodes did the fundraiser on Nov. 5; Black Box Voting did not even decide to go to Florida until Nov. 11. This decision was made not to "overturn Florida" but to see if evidence could be found that the GEMS tabulator was dialling out. That was Andy Stephenson's idea -- and Stephenson is a very good "idea man" and has many creative thoughts. (And in this thread, he engages in creative writing as well).

All voting reform groups did fund raising around election time. The financial planning for election reform groups is challenging, in that interest peaks only every four years, with a small spike each two years. With payroll, accounting, office, Internet, travel and activism costs, everyone was fund raising, and thank goodness they did. If they had not done so, you'd see a lot more silence right now.

The hardest fund raising job is for local groups, and Black Box Voting is now helping local voting reform organizations raise money. You'll soon see explosive public records documents from Riverside, California appear online -- because citizens of Riverside were able to raise money to get a scanner during the Black Box Voting citizen meetup held last week.

Public Records cost money. You'll soon see the $4,000 spent on the first full set of Sequoia Voting Systems documents put to work. In fact, listen to the Mike Webb show tonight to see what was found in these documets.

By all means, don't give money if you don't want to -- or better yet, make donations to your local groups, who need it the most. Whatever you do, do get involved.
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rockedthevoteinMA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Who are you bailey77?
And why are you consistently defending Bev, as if you are her? Were you there when all of these events went down?

And what happened to ALL of the money Bev solicited from everyone via Randi, DU, etc? Everyone would really like to know, and seeing as you appear to be so in touch with her, let her know that we've all been waiting to see the accounting on that, which she promised on her last appearance on Rhandi's show - back in December.

I eagerly await your responses. :eyes:
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #43
57. Wasn't the accounting posted on the web site?
I have an idea:

Ask for an accounting from all of the following organizations and have them all release the info together (in other words, hold everyone to the same standard)

Organizations who raised a shitload of money on the voting issue:

VerifiedVoting.
Common Cause
People for the American Way
VoteWatch

Organizations who also raised money:

Black Box Voting .org
CASE Ohio
VotersUnite
California Voters Foundation
Open Voting Consortium

And while you're at it, how about:
Andy Stephenson's personal PayPal account
Black Box Voting .com's PayPal donations "to help Bev Harris" which was on their site until Nov. 4, when they finally did a disclaimer.

Oh, wait, please issue the same demand of Democratic Underground. And -- now here's a thought: ES&S, Diebold, Sequoia, Hart Intercivic, the ITAA.

It is easy to toss barbs out at a lone target. Simple. Anyone can do it.

In fact, people who can't get attention any other way do it.

Bev Harris is doing a killer audit of Snohomish County tonight, with the results to be announced on Mike Webb. After more than 2,000 pages of unrebutted spew on DU, and after the site's management made a decision to ignore its own rules against personal attacks -- but only when the attacks are against one individual, and apparently now, also against a charming person named Penny Little -- well, it was decided that occasional people might actually like to hear the other side.

Yes, Mikey, it's true: There are two sides to every story. It's only David Allen who finds it personally offensive to allow both sides to be told.

Both sides, or no sides, should be told. For a time, DU moderators seemed to abandon even that basic tenet of decency. They banned a whole slate of moderate members, including -- and for the life of me, I never figured this one out -- ParanoidPat.

Recently, they seem to have decided to allow just one person to provide another side of the story. That seems fair enough to me.

However, I do hope they finally lock this thread for the flamebait that it is. It's not facts, folks. Just spew.

You can tell the real deal by who is actually out there working, publishing new material, talking with congresspeople, meeting with activists, auditing, and basically busting their butts.

Have a nice day.


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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #57
212. Before you even think about bashing Andy, let me give you some advice
Andy is well known on DU and many, many other places for the tons of work that he has done in the field of election reform. He is liked and respected. Futhermore, Andy tells the truth and I am inclined to believe him and David over Bev anyday.

Do not try to come here and cast suspicion on Andy in some attempt to try and make Bev look good. You will not earn any friends that way. Not only that but you will never make Bev look good by dragging Andy or David, for that matter, down into the dirt. It simply won't work.

Many DUers here love and respect Andy. He has acted honestly throughout all of this mess. David has as well.

Bev, on the other hand, has not. Threatening to sue DU and DUers was the last straw for many of us.
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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #57
238. And how will you attempt to discredit ME?
Oh, wait a minute -- you can't! I've already reported on Bev on this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #238
239. Hi Ida!
I had forgot about that post.

Thanks for reminding me.

BTW, have you check out this post?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #239
248. Saw it -- incredibly depressing...:(
Good to see you posting, tho, and thank you for making sure folks know the true story. :) Best, Ida
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #43
278. The lie about the money has been proven here
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #41
80. BTW Bailey77
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 12:03 AM by Kelvin Mace
The strange blue-colored words you see in many of my posts. They are called "links". On the "Internet" they are used to link to other sites and sources. Grownups use them to back up their arguments. Wouldn't you like to back up your arguments?

Of course you don't

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #80
104. Internet sites and especially, forum posts, are not evidence
Sorry, this group seems to substitute online chat for facts. Your links are usually just to other DU chats.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #104
111. Bev own words ARE evidence
They inlclude her posts and emails.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #111
131. Actually, not when taken out of context
Now, if you write something disgusting, then someone responds to it, and you provide their response but not your original disgusting post, that isn't really evidence, because you are portraying something out of context.

Likewise for not showing the whole body of work. Your links are often to posts where Harris didn't do a single post. Others are incomplete, or lacking context.

Good heavens, David, if people saw some of the incoherent and peculiar emails you have sent, they'd conclude you had personality disorders yourself, or worse.

Fortunately for everyone, that also goes for public officials. So how about applying your own little clipping service to the emails from elections officials.

Public records requests for those get really interesting. And hoarding them would do much more to help the voting reform movement than hunkering over specially collected tidbits from two year's worth of correspondence with Harris.

You will thrill us all when you actually get back into the business of tackling the issue, instead of obsessing about Bev Harris.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #131
145. This is just too funny
"Out of context" when a link to the entire thread is provided. Only Bev Harris' special english language dictionary would provide that kind of distortion of the truth.

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #131
152. How can you claim the text is out of context
when I have made the entire text available IN context? In the course of this thread I have quoted a snippet here and there such as your claim that you wouldn't soil your hands with qui tam money, but the entire post is in the very beginning of this thread. They are called links, they lead to your actual words.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #152
158. It's a pattern, David
She thinks because she denies her own words to herself that others will simply disregard them.

She's slipped from liar to delusional. The problem is that the only one buying her attempted PR is Bev.
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demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #41
91. Andy said he thought Bev was going to overturn Florida
So apparently, people inside Bev's organization were similarly confused as I was about this 'overturning Florida' thing.

Are you saying that Andy is lying?
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #91
92. When Bev brought Lowell Finley
to Florida...I was under the distinct impression it was to challenge the results. I had coordinated with heddafoil to get Common Cause volunteers to pick up the FOIA requests. Bev said she could not trust volunteers to get the information.


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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #92
106. Factual correction: Bev didn't bring Lowell Finley to Florida
I believe he was brought there by countthevote.org or helpamericarecount.org.

It was Finley's idea to go to Florida and he went there on his own dime or on behalf of one of the recount organizations.

Also, it wasn't Andy coordinating with Joan Krawitz of helpamericarecount.org to get common cause volunteers. It was Lowell coordinating with them, and it was Lowell's decision not to go forward with it because none of the major population centers were willing to provide their records, and without those counties, there was no point.

Andy helped to make a series of last-ditch calls trying to prod the counties into giving up the records. His phone bills are now in possession of Black Box Voting, as are his notes indicating that the counties were refusing to give up the documents.

Now, it makes no sense to send Common Cause volunteers all over the state making visits to offices that do not have any records ready. Think about it. (And why would Black Box Voting have sued Palm Beach County, if they were giving up their records?)

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #106
113. Stating "factual" doesn't make Bev's lies true
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #106
148. Back it up, Bev.
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 08:07 AM by Boredtodeath
I believe he was brought there by countthevote.org or helpamericarecount.org

I know ALL the co-founders of countthevote.org and they have NEVER ONCE had anything to do with the shyster lawyer Lowell Finley. Nor would they EVER have anything to do with the attorney who brought Bev Harris' Qui Tam lawsuit while allowing her to continue her lies that the founders of that web site were filing a Qui Tam.

In addition, countthevote.org has never had anything to do with any state other than Georgia which is their home state.

You're skating on VERY THIN ICE here, Bev. And you damned well better be able to back this up with something other than your imagination.

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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #148
164. I believe it was Finley who incorporated helpamericarecount.org
Lowell Finley was working with Joan Krawitz's group - he is an honorable attorney. Your post is an excellent illustration of how poisonous these posts are.

Finley did the work for Joan to set up Help America Recount, and I'm pretty sure it was on their behalf that he came to Florida. He may have paid his own way.

Finley also worked with Joan (HeddaFoil) in the New Mexico recount.

Countthevote.org -- I was getting that mixed up with auditthevote.org. Just went over to that site, and I see the confusion. Auditthevote.org is a new site, started around the time HelpAmericaRecount.org was set up, and I couldn't remember off the top of my head which was which, and I did get them mixed up.

It was HelpAmericaRecount.org that was working with Finley.

Now, you just called Lowell Finley a shyster. That is not a compliment. Do you feel the same now that you know he was working for Joan Krawitz's group?
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #164
167. I most certainly do
And the facts support the claim.

An ethical attorney would have forced Bev Harris to stop spewing lies at the same time he was undertaking her lawsuit to do exactly what she was lying about.

The man is lacking in ethics. I don't care who he works with, he's still an unethical shyster.

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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #148
269. Man...
Lowell Finley sure gets around.
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #91
105. Andy is engaging in creative writing. Yes, lying.
BBV went to Florida to find out if there was any evidence in the Windows Event logs that Diebold central tabulators dial out.

The idea is to overturn the whole flawed election system, not just Florida or Ohio.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #105
112. There is only one liar around here
and you are channeling her.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #105
227. Prove it. Prove to all of us that Andy is lying.
You can't because Andy wasn't and isn't lying and neither is David.
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Niche Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #227
274. PROVE TO US that ANDY ET AL has done anything to...
expose and get indictments AGAINST BBVOTING MACHINES! F*ck all the drama. How much $ are they asking for this time? Oh that's right the 1000+ posters are in on the Pay Pal account.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #274
275. Start with these.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0312/S00156.htm?mode=p...

Today I call on these officials to make a clear and public accounting of their own systems. The public has a right to know when uncertified, and unapproved software is counting an election, and it also has a right to have those elected officials explain clear violations of the law. For the law states that software running these machines must be approved, and tested, and analyzed by independent testing authorities (ITAs) before it is used in voting machines. And when a software technician installs a patch or does an upgrade to any part of the system, then that system has been compromised, unless that patch or upgrade is also approved and certified.


http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,117911,00.asp

"We were using the real software that's going to be used in several counties around the country," Stephenson says. "There is no security."

Black Box Voting officials say the change can be made quickly without detection. "You simply open any text editor, like 'Notepad,' and type a six-line Visual Basic Script, and you own the election," according to the Black Box Voting Web site.


http://www.rense.com/general59/diebold.htm

On Aug. 18, 2004, Harris and Stephenson, together with computer security expert Dr. Hugh Thompson, and former King County Elections Supervisor Julie Anne Kempf, met with members of the California Voting Systems Panel and the California Secretary of State's office to demonstrate the double set of books. The officials declined to allow a camera crew from 60 Minutes to film or attend.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0405/S00163.htm

In the first pre-emptive lawsuit against voting machines filed by a candidate, Andy Stephenson -- a candidate for Washington Secretary of State -- has filed for an injunction to decertify Diebold GEMS central count software used in four Washington counties. The suit alleges that current Washington Secretary of State Sam Reed improperly certified the voting system. Stephenson is also suing King County over the use of uncertified optical scan software.


http://www.kucinich.us/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=2542&high...

'To the people of NJ from Andy Stephenson. I just spoke with Frank Lautenberg in the elevator. I first asked Senator Lautenberg if he had a few minutes to talk to me. He said yes. I began to talk to him about the voting issues I found in FL and OH. He couldn't get out of the elevator quick enough. Being the tenacious person I am, I followed him out and asked, "Senator won't you please look at the evidence? Won't you please stand with Mr. Conyers? Won't you please stand for the American People?" Mr. Lautenberg said, "I don't want to hear this." I said, "Mr. Lautenberg, I have seen the evidence, I've seen it with my own eyes. I discovered it." To which he replied, "If you don't leave me alone and stop harassing me, I will have you arrested." I said to Mr. Lautenberg, "If you stand with Mr. Conyers, you will be a hero." He said "I am a hero. I was in World War II." I replied, "You won't be in the eyes of the American people if you don't stand up with Mr. Conyers tomorrow.'

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0817-12.htm

When they're in road-trip mode, Harris and Stephenson are a high-tech public-interest group on wheels. The phone rings frequently with leads to be investigated. As they drove through San Bernardino, California, Harris took a call from an official in Indiana who claimed a voting-machine salesman picked up a top elections official in a limousine and took her on a shopping spree.


http://politics.guardian.co.uk/egovernment/comment/0,12...

Stephenson also discovered that Jeffrey Dean, the senior programmer of the Diebold Gems central tabulator system counting a third of the votes in the Bush-Kerry election in 37 states, has a police record. He pleaded guilty to 23 counts of embezzlement involving sophisticated manipulation of computer accounting records.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #274
276. 1000+ posters?
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Did you change your screen name, David?
I always thought you posted under plan_9_pub?
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. I did
However thanks to a freeper who was harrassing my artists I had to disassociate Plan 9 from DU to spare them problems.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thank you, David
For all your tireless work on this issue.

We must not allow Bev Harris to attempt to re-write history yet again. She has done more damage to this issue singlehandedly than imaginable.

You have my support and backing.

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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. She is trying to write me out...
I am sick as a dog...could be dying...and she tries to steal the only legacy I have to leave. I hope ya'll remember what I did.

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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. I'm waiting for your biography.
Any writers out there???

Patriotic Portraits, Protests, and Profiles: The Andy Stephenson Story


Or something cool like that... :)
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Why should YOU be different?
Edited on Tue Mar-08-05 01:32 PM by Boredtodeath
She's already written out all the first activists, you're in the 2nd round.

on edit:
Didn't mean this to sound ugly - just factual. Re-reading it I realized it may come across badly.

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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
47. Factual errors in the above
Please refer to the acknowledgements page of the book. It is still online for free at http://www.blackboxvoting.org .

No one was "written out."

Several people have, however, tried to claim original research done by Harris as their own. Harris kept meticulous notes, including the original documents and sources for each of her stories, her original interviews, her contact lists, and all raw material notes (as well as any raw material provided by others).

In writing the book, she reviewed all of her notes and the copious email files she had collected, and on the last page of the book, provided acknowledgements. Specific sources are credited in the index.

One individual, who appears frequently in this thread, at one time attempted to take credit for the work of protected sources.

For the record, it was Dan Spillane who identified the source code and guided Harris through it; That was in Feb. 2003. Later, in June, Roxanne Jekot provided information; she requested that her name not be used in the book, but her efforts are chronicled in the chapter leading up to Rob Behler's chapter. The man who provided the GEMS hack to Harris has not fully gone public.

Spillane, Jekot, and the still protected source went through considerable risk to analyze the Diebold files before it was "okay" to do so.

David Allen did not identify the source code (as he claims in "The Nation" magazine). He did not provide any meaningful input on the Diebold files. Roxanne Jekot did provide very helpful information, especially in the areas of computer programming protocol.

Andrew Gumbel, in an article in the Guardian, did an outstanding job of interviewing Jekot, and reported her remarks with the flair she delivers them.

Harris has also done a gargantuan amount of research herself, including on the computer files. A writer interviews sources. That's what all journalists do. Harris worked fairly closely with 23 computer programmers in writing the book, and has at least 25 more working with her now.

Some of the hoo-rah about being "written out" seems to be from people who did something of greater (or lesser) value early on, who think they should still be part of every story.

Ask any news editor: Yesterday is yesterday. What have you got for us today?

It's about moving the ball forward each week. Harris, and Black Box Voting, and many other voting reform advocates, are doing that.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. She can't steal your legacy, it's not a solid thing she can carry away
Now your LAPTOP--THAT she can steal. (Did you ever get it back?) But what you have done is known by a LOT of people, and that number is growing all the time. Did SHE get a Golden Spine Award? (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... ) The idea that she could somehow take from you the public knowledge of your accomplishments -- I just don't see how she can do it now. Try, yes--and discredit herself still more in the process.

And the word "legacy" has the wrong flavor here because it looks backward and what you have is growing. You will be well again, and then the blivet**-monsters of the Administration election fraud machine had better watch out.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. Ultimately, the real story will be known
and the press, know the real story. They know how Bev treated them. I have spoken to quite a few reporters who covered this and they known the story. At some future date, it will be written.

On the "15 minutes of Fame" clock, it is 14:59:55

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
48. Here's an idea:
Instead of living and breathing an "I'll get even with Bev" theme, why not research and publish original new stories to help with voting reform.

Recapping news stories already published, and interspersing them with sarcastic comments, is something anyone can do.

Move the ball forward in a measureable way in voting reform. Much better use of your skills.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #48
69. I'am not interest in talking about voting reform
I have been rather busy working on it in my own state. Countering Bev's lies is something I do in my spare time.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #69
124. Good., Please share a listing of what specifically you have done
There is a set of updates at Bev's site. On your site, all I see is recaps of other people's news stories with sarcastic comments.

Every time someone asks you what you actually do for the cause, you mention a single speech you made, or point to one lonely meeting.

OK. Harris made seven speeches last week, and met with two reporters and two politicians, in addition to telephone calls with three members of congress and an audit of Snohomish County. Her schedule began at 5 a.m. and finished at 1 a.m., for days on end. Same with others from BBV.org.

She's walking the walk. What exactly did you do last week?

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #124
127. Honey child
I don't have to justify my existance to the likes of you. Unlike Bev, I don't find it neccesary to pat myself on the back and issue a press release every time I go out on this issue.

Your sad attempts to bait me have failed. Does it still piss Bev off that she couldn't bully me out of my domain? How about the fact that her attempt to portray my site as "deceptive" blew up in her face?

I'm off to bed, so why don't you go activate an eagle or some such silliness to keep yourself amused.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #127
132. If you are expecting people to follow your lead, show what you do
You collected money via PayPal for over a year without disclosing that it was not going to buy a server (which you said it was for) or that Harris was not affiliated with you (until Nov. 4, when you finally issued that disclaimer).

Many donors contacted Black Box Voting.org, dismayed that they had given money to your paypal, never realizing that it never made its way to the nonprofit organization, having gotten stuck in your pocket.

You claim Harris is out soliciting funds from other Web sites, but she's not, nor is BBV, and when asked to prove it, you simply dodged the question.

You claim Harris is "damaging the movement" because she killed off the media, but when evidence is shown that the media is still covering the issue, you then say she's seeking publicity. Well duh. Can't have it both ways, can you?

You claim Harris is busy stuffing her pockets, yet she has been giving her own assets away, and is not wealthy or even financially secure -- at least, no retirement, which is a worry for anyone over 50. Yet she is giving away $76,000 of her money, and her book -- yet you kept not only your own proceeds from the book, but those belonging to Harris.

You say you are doing lots of work in your own state, but when asked what you are doing specifically, you say you don't have to answer.

This thread would be a lot less annoying if you simply focused on the real issues -- voting reform -- and discussed new research you are doing.

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #132
151. You are setting a record here for lies and distortions in a single post
You collected money via PayPal for over a year without disclosing that it was not going to buy a server (which you said it was for) or that Harris was not affiliated with you (until Nov. 4, when you finally issued that disclaimer).

The PayPal button I had was the equivalent of a "tip jar" and at NO time did I say I was "buying a server". I said it was to help pay my bandwidth bill. A disclaimer was posted on my site from July 2004 on. It was in the same text box as the PayPal button. I added TWO more disclaimers and removed the button (and have kept it off) as soon as your started soliciting money. The issue is addressed in the links I posted on this thread and includes a discussion of your accusation that I was being deceptive.

Many donors contacted Black Box Voting.org, dismayed that they had given money to your paypal, never realizing that it never made its way to the nonprofit organization, having gotten stuck in your pocket.

Less than one dozen people donated to me instead of Bev. I know because I contacted each person when I realized Bev was out begging for cash. I refunded ALL of their money and would be happy to post the emails in question.

You claim Harris is out soliciting funds from other Web sites, but she's not, nor is BBV, and when asked to prove it, you simply dodged the question.

Uh, where did you ask me to "prove it". In order to dodge a question I have to be asked it. The more I talk to you the more convinced that this is Bev. The style and tone is now identical to her style of arguing.

You claim Harris is "damaging the movement" because she killed off the media, but when evidence is shown that the media is still covering the issue, you then say she's seeking publicity. Well duh. Can't have it both ways, can you?

Yep, same old Bev. I never said you "killed off the media" I said you made our job more difficult. Also, your massive ego is showing again. You conflate any coverage of this issue by the media as directly attributable to you.

You claim Harris is busy stuffing her pockets, yet she has been giving her own assets away, and is not wealthy or even financially secure -- at least, no retirement, which is a worry for anyone over 50. Yet she is giving away $76,000 of her money, and her book -- yet you kept not only your own proceeds from the book, but those belonging to Harris.

You have given nothing away. You have said you will give it away. The difference between what you say you will do and what you actually do is a major issue of discussion. As to proceeds from the book, this issue has been addressed and the convoluted lies you told in its regard have been laid out.

You say you are doing lots of work in your own state, but when asked what you are doing specifically, you say you don't have to answer.

No, I said I don't have to answer to YOU. I have posted links to my activities in this very thread. Do I have to take you by the hand and point them out to you? This is yet another example of your talent at lies and distortion.

This thread would be a lot less annoying if you simply focused on the real issues -- voting reform -- and discussed new research you are doing.

I have never claimed to being doing any "research", especially if research means what you do. I have said I was working on the issue in my state.

It's called Google, Bev. You can use it to look these things up. If I start posting links to news stories your next tactic will be to pounce on it and pull up my previous post where I say I am not seeking your kind of attention and use the links to accuse me of lying.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #132
218. Actually this thread would be a lot less annoying
if bev, posing as bailey would stop attempting to defend herself by discrediting everyone else who is working toward the same thing she is supposedly working on. I made the mistake of donating to BBV twice. It is the ONLY donation I have made, out of maybe a hundred, that I regret. It is also the only donation I have made which I feel should be accounted for. I TRUST the other organizations.

The thing that sickens me the most is the attempt to discredit Andy, who most of us know, is very, very sick. I can't describe the revulsion I feel reading those posts, and I can't imagine the type of human being who would do such a thing. I read many things about Andy's work with Bev prior to his being fired. She seemed to think highly of his work at that time. I don't know Andy, but I doubt that he has changed. Having read Bev's attacks on so many people, it would seem that no one is immune, no matter how much good they have done.

Honestly it has been Bev's attacking of a good man when he is down that has revolted me the most. The lack of empathy for another human being shows that this person will go to any lengths to make herself look good. It's not working.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #218
221. I know Andy very well and you are absolutely right about him, and
about Bev. I have never seen such cruelty. It's astonishing, and revolting.
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #218
226. Bravo, Laurab! The attack on Andy (as well as David) is pathetic
The fact that this bailey77 person would spread lies about David is one thing because at least David isn't sick. Kicking someone while they are down is the lowest of the low.

What's next? Going to go to the hospital to kick sick children? Maybe a round of puppy kicking?

Bravo, bailey77. Maybe you'll be as well "liked" on DU as Bev. Then the two of you can put us all on your list of "evildoers."

Pathetic.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #218
243. Until she attacked Andy...
I thought Bev was a basically decent person with personality issues. Lots of very strong, energetic, and dedicated people have bad and abrasive personalities, so I forgave her that she often came off like a witch.

But after what she did to Andy, there's no forgiving. I'm beginning to think she's a plant, someone put in place to hijack the BBV movement and drive it into the ground.

i mean, what do I know. But that's how it's feeling to me.

(She sold Clinton cigars!!)
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MichaelHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #48
141. Good Idea
I'm doing a story about how a woman mislead thousands of people while taking their donations just so she could get some "face time" on TV. I think I'll call it "Bev Harris; After the Laughter"
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #141
142. Except that your story would be inaccurate.
Do your homework first.
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MichaelHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #142
143. I have
read testimonies from people who have worked with her, and I've seen quotes from hundreds of people who donated money to her cause. What I haven't seen is one single person who is happy they have given money.

I've read articles and posts from a person who seems to find prestige in glorifying herself and her actions. I've seen a person who has, in the same thread give credit to Andy and then deny that same credit. What I take from that is a woman who has some personality disorder who can't seem to find her own truths let alone the truth of a story.

On one word, grandstanding.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
78. Damn right we will remember you, Andy. You are one of my personal heros.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
83. Nobody is going to forget
Forget about the bullshitters, Andy. They have been discredited and disowned. Work on getting better.
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #83
107. My goodness. Don't ask him to forget about bullshitters.
He'd have to forget about himself!
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #107
114. Your mask is starting to slip
Your starting to show your true colors, the incivilty and vicious temper that lurks just below the surface.

What's the matter? Can't Bev scare up enough folk to come over and rally to her defense? That's the way she usually does it.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #114
125. Aw, calling a bullshitter a bullshitter isn't vicious.
That's just telling it like it is. Andy was in sales before he came to Black Box Voting. Then he was in politics. Both professions reward bullshitters.

Of course, calling it as it is might be incivility.

Wait -- calling someone a thief, liar, embezzler, claiming they are stuffing their pockets with money -- now that's vicious.


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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #107
219. You are simply cruel Bev
You can't spin that away. You've shown your true self today. You make me sick.
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
193. Andy
I hope that when you're better you sue the shit out of her and her crummy 501(c)(3). You're documenting everything right? Need someone to do screen grabs and such?
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
213. Don't you worry, Andy - you'll be fine and we certainly know
We know what you have done, what you are still trying to do and we are waiting to see what you will do in the future.

Bev will be merely a footnote in the story of your life.

Don't worry about this stupid shit and concentrate on getting better. We've got your back.

:grouphug: for Andy!
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
42. Factual corrections
The only evidence presented that Harris "rewrites history" is that oft-repeated phrase from David Allen.

Her body of work is prodigious and respected. The proof of this is continuing to break new stories. See today's story, which I will post at DU.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Oh, she TRIES to rewrite history
But it doesn't work because so many of us correct her with the truth.

As for her "breaking news" of the day, it's just more allegations and story telling; not an iota of proof in anything she says. Just another "pretty soon someone is going to tell you how wonderful I am."

I know several of the people she tried to write out of the real history of this issue. Too many watched her try and know it's truth.

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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #46
67. not one iota of proof -- except a videotape
and six witnesses.

Wait, make that two videographers.

Eating crow isn't that bad. (Tastes like chicken)
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. Now she starting to sound more like Bev
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #67
144. Now THAT'S funny
video no one has ever seen, accompanied by witness testimony which contradicts the story completely.

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!

You know, Bev, you could prove your point on national television with Keith Olberman if only you'd bring this infamous videotape with you.

Oh my, let's hear the excuses why that video hasn't been released. Evidently, it took a real slow boat through China "on it's way to California for editing."

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. Who takes up the cause, then?
Wow, this is all inside baseball to me, but it is so unfortunate that she has ticked off a large segment of her former supporters.

Who will do the work, who will expose the problems? She's the only one I've ever heard of addressing the issues associated with e-ballots. Is there anyone else on this? They need a publicist, if they are hard at work...

How do we counter the trend? Everyone take to the street waving pen and paper, demanding paper ballots? Or do we just give up and say oh well, Stalin has won?
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Where do you live?
I'll be happy to point you in the direction of a local/state group.

There are plenty of dedicated and sober folks working on this.

http://www.verifiedvoting.org /
http://www.votersunite.org /
http://www.evoting-experts.com /

I am sure others can post other groups.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. More
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. Another
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
214. She is NOT the only one!!
I have a bunch of links to other groups:

Name Website
California Voter Foundation http://www.calvoter.org
Californians for Electoral Reform http://www.cfer.org
Case Ohio http://www.caseohio.org
Coalition for Verifiable Voting http://www.ncvoter.net
Cobb for President http://www.votecobb.org
Contest the Vote http://www.contestthevote.org /
Count Paper Ballots www.countpaperballots.com
Count the Vote www.countthevote.org
Demos http://www.demos-usa.org /
Electionline http://www.electionline.org/index.jsp
ExitPollz http://www.exitpollz.org
Fair Vote http://www.fairvote.org
Miami-Dade Election Reform Coalition http://www.reformcoalition.org /
National Ballot Integrity http://www.ballotintegrity.org
National Voting Rights Institute http://www.nvri.org
Nov 2 Truth http://www.Nov2Truth.org
Ohio Forward http://www.ohioforward.org
Ohio Vote Suppression News http://www.ohvotesuppression.blogspot.com /
Oregon Clean Vote http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OR_Clean_Vote /
Progressive Vote http://progressivevote.org
Project Vote Smart http://www.vote-smart.org /
Recount Ohio http://www.recountohio.org
Solarbus http://www.solarbus.org
Stolen Election 2004 http://www.stolenelection2004.org /
The Open Voting Consortium http://www.Openvotingconsortium.org
True Vote MD http://truevotemd.org
Truth in Voting http://www.truthinvoting.org /
United For Secure Elections no site found
US Counts Votes http://www.uscountvotes.org
US Voting Integrity Project http://www.usvip.org
Verified Voting http://www.verifiedvoting.org
Verified Voting New Mexico http://vvnm.org
Vote Watch 2004 http://vote2004.eriposte.com /
Voter Choice http://www.voterchoice.org
Voters Unite http://www.votersunite.org
We Do Not Concede Coalition http://www.donotconcede.com

Need more? I'm compiling a list of more and more every day.

Don't believe the hype. Bev is not the be-all, end-all of election reform.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
7. One of my major concerns looking forward
Edited on Tue Mar-08-05 01:19 PM by Nothing Without Hope
Is that there could be an unfortunate conjunction of Bev's fondness for media interviews and the widespread desire to discredit the whole idea of significant election fraud and derail attempts to prevent it.

If she is caught in public lies or overstatements, especially on TV or in some other "big" interview, this could be loudly proclaimed as "proof" that people seeking to combat election fraud cannot be believed and are a bunch of unstable tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists. This meme is already out there, and she might march right into this role of solidifying it, doing a lot of damage to the effort to gather support. (This is looking forward, so there's no point in speculating on whether she might deliberately do something like this. Who knows her mind?)

So if it hasn't already happened, it seems to me that a reframing campaign to remove the mantle of legitimacy and stardom from her and prepare for a discrediting attack like I've described would be a valuable proactive step. The Administration wants very badly to discredit any unsuppressed statements or implications that the election was stolen and they also want to make sure they can KEEP stealing them. They will use whatever convenient tools come to hand in their smearing, distortion, lying and suppression campaign against exposure and election reform.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Already happens every day
The Georgia press calls the activists "Bev Harris conspiracy nuts" in every article they publish.

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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
51. Ah! Could you email me such an article?
I have a very good media search subscription, and have never seen such an article.

I did see one of the only Atlanta Journal-Constitution articles to truly take a chunk out of Georgia voting machines, the article on the chimp hacking the election.

email erinbailey77@comcast.net

I did see the "conspiracy theorist" label applied once to Dr. David Dill. Got a chuckle out of that.

It has also been applied to Lynn Landes -- a journalist often quoted at DU. The Palm Beach Post did that one.

Most articles nowadays refer to Harris as an expert on voting machines, or as the executive director of Black Box Voting, Inc., or as an activist.

I did hear from a staffer from John Conyers' office last week that they take Harris's research seriously, because they know if she write it, it will be well documented.
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rockedthevoteinMA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Okay bailey
Edited on Tue Mar-08-05 09:24 PM by rockedthevoteinMA
I did hear from a staffer from John Conyers' office last week that they take Harris's research seriously, because they know if she write it, it will be well documented.

If this is so true, then why couldn't she be bothered to show up at the forums Conyers held? In DC and Ohio? Rhandi asked her - and, believe it or not, she didn't answer! Oh what a shock - your darling bev - no, she isn't the saint you make her out to be!

On Edit: I bet I'll be waiting a long time for an answer.
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #53
60. I'm still waiting for the email.
Straw men, knock them down.

That hearing was a nice TV bit, but didn't change the world. The niche Harris chose to carve was evidenciary, real documents, public records, internal computer logs, real answers.

Usually, vote suppression can't win a court case, because the courts try to make you prove actual damages, which are difficult to quantify or prove. An argument can be made that you do actual harm when you take away a civil right -- and that is the brilliance of what Conyers is suggesting, with a Constitutional Amendment for equal, federal rights to vote. Right now we don't have such a right, causing states to hide under their own rights, which causes the civil rights argument to fail in court.

Very few states allow statistics to overturn elections, or even open up a successful challenge. Florida is an exception, and Harris worked until 4 a.m. with attorney Lowell Finley, all the way up to the wire, to see if Florida could be challenged using available evidence. As a 501c(3), BBV could not get involved directly in a challenge, but could provide research.

It was determined that stats couldn't prevail on a Florida challenge. It was not correct, what Stephenson wrote -- maybe he has deleted it by now, surely he knows it is wrong. The failure to obtain public records in time for a Florida challenge had nothing to do with Common Cause picking them up.

The major population bases -- Broward, Miami, Hillsborough, Pinellas, Orange, Palm Beach, ALL stonewalled on the records. Without their records, it was not possible to make a case.

It wasn't the time. It would not have made a bit of difference in the presidential election, whether Harris was at the hearing or not. In fact, Harris was on a radio show with Conyers shortly after the hearing, and he also said that the hearing was a fact gathering hearing, not an effort to change the election result.

For all the hoopla about Harris being all about publicity, what she was doing was developing a case, and it was not necessary to go to hearings in Ohio to do so. Instead, she was working. Later, Jan. 4-5, she traveled to D.C. and she has communicated with several congresspersons just about every week, on issues and research of substance.

Issues she has raised -- and delivered papers on -- include the crisis in public records compliance, where a secretary of state like Blackwell tells all the counties not to allow citizens to see basic substantiating documents. She has also raised issues about election security and, of course, the new story now up on Black Box Voting.

That story has elements and individuals that are being protected, but the specifics of the hack and the people involved are being provided to the appropriate public officials.

Sorry. You can't win this thing just by hanging out on the Internet. Nor with a single hearing. Not even with lots of publicity.

It's going to take proof, and part of that is developing the audit documents.

Listen to Mike Webb tonight for new information, detailing some of the meat-and-potatoes research that will help to either remove Sequoia touch screen voting systems, back up the need for paper ballots through legislation, or both.
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #60
181. TV bit?
I was there, and I'll tell you if you don't think it was important you are sadly mistaken. I seem to remember Randi Rhodes asking Bev later why she wasn't at the Ohio hearings and her answer was that nobody asked her to come - like someone should've asked her to bring her evidence? People came of their own volition to make their testimony part of the public record. Why is BBV still holding on to all the "evidence" they found in Florida? They wouldn't be thinking of another Qui Tam, would they? I know the first time around didn't make "ole Jim a millionaire".
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #51
149. February 17, 2004
Front page of the AJC. It never appeared online. Research Lexus, Bev. Or better yet, ask your buddy Russell Michaels - he was in Atlanta the day that was printed.

Multiple references to "Bev Harris conspiracy theorists" in there.

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #149
208. Once again,
hard fact trumps not very competent lies.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. that was part of the plan, but it didn't work
proof that it didn't work is that credible people such as John Conyers have proposed reforms.

(and the BBVers -- they're still here at DU, post-Bev -- have made stabs at discrediting Conyers, but that's going to be tough for them).
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. NO ONE has tried to discredit Mr Conyers cocoa .
Unless you have. But, I for one, have huge problems with his Bill. It is no secret that I am not a fan of the Conyers legislation. It is flawed...and until major changes are made that protect my vote...I will not change that position. But this thread is not about Conyers...Me...you or legislation. It is about Bev and how she has hurt and continues to hurt the movement.

Oh and BTW...the only BBV'er I know of posting at DU now is...Bailey77.
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
32. "...whether she might deliberately do something like this..."
Someone has their thinking cap on, although if you actually were serious about that speculation being pointless, we disagree about that
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
49. factual corrections
(note that one one hand, people here are writing that the issue needs more media attention, and Kelvin Mace seems to claim that Harris has killed media attention -- despite daily interviews to the contrary)

Significant election fraud must be proven, on paper. It is precisely for this reason that Black Box Voting did so many public records requests. The evidence from those public records is helpful in proving fraud.

Harris has an excellent reputation with the press, precisely because her work is documented (with paper source documents, like SEC statements, corporate documents, and computer logs) and nowadays, usually videotaped.

Much of the most legitimate work done in the voting movement is due to Black Box Voting.

Understand one thing, though: There is absolutely no reason to believe that the Bush Administration is the only one stealing elections.

In fact, election stealing is usually done for profit motives, among county commissioners, supervisors, council members. It is there that the infrastructure is put in place to do grander manipulations. Kill the local corruption and you put a big crimp in national corruption.

Although it is simplistic and perhaps fun to find one person to hate and blame all your political frustrations on, the answers that will help truly reform elections are more complex.

Bev Harris didn't invent election manipulation. Neither did the Bush administration. And don't expect people put in power using a broken system to repair the broken system.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. Lets here it for the moles
:puke:

Thanks for bringing us up to date on this person, I never could believe a person could try to stoop as low as *, but I guess it takes all kinds
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demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. Opportunistic "progressives"
We're seeing more and more fake progressives that are trying to capitalize on an audience of people motivated for political change. They're either in it for money or greed or acknowledgement. Bev Harris described her strategy on her Talion website (see Kelvin Mace's link).

Another "progressive" is doing a similar thing: look what Penny Little, who is going around promoting a version of the film "Electile Dysfunction," has been doing to Take Back The Media:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/2/26/93323/3792

How can someone claim to be for progressive causes and fighting fraud, and do what she did to a pregnant woman who poured her life savings into the film, slept in cars?

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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
52. I have heard that 'Electile Dysfunction' is a very good film
I haven't seen it -- but heard that it is quite good. If you have information that discredits the film -- not personality tiffs, which certainly happen every day among artists -- but real problems with the factual basis of the film, I'd like to know.

Better yet, I'll watch it and decide for myself.
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demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #52
157. How can you talk about something you haven't seen?
And by what you are saying, it's okay for one "progressive" to steal another person's life savings and destroy their property and break contracts. That doesn't fall in the realm of "personality tiffs."

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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #157
165. Well, people on this forum throw around complete fabrications
about theft and so forth.

I can only say that I've spoken with people who saw the film (not quite complete, I gather) who loved it.

Now, I heard the same thing going the other direction about that film -- didn't pay much attention to the details, but the gist of it was that someone originally involved with the film tried to steal it from the other producers.

This kind of thing happens, unfortunately, in both the film and the music business and there usually is a bad guy and a good guy, but I wouldn't know which is which in the case of that film.

I do know that in the case of the Black Box Voting book, Allen agreed in the contract to send monthly sales reports and royalties, but he has not sent sales reports for over a year and he never sent a monthly royalty check.

Yet, Allen calls Harris a "thief."

In that situation, the contract is pretty clear, and nonperformance criteria are equally clear. Without seeing the contract and the books for the film electile dysfunction, none of us can know who is in the right and who is in the wrong.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #165
178. Show me:
Yet, Allen calls Harris a "thief."

where I called you a thief.

The word "thief" appears twice in this entire thread and both times they are YOUR posts.

In psychology, this is called projection.


David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #157
166. Facts never got in Bev's way
You should know that by now.

The other thing is this - when facts don't support your version, you have to make it about "personality" because nothing else is left.

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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
11. Keith Olberman wrote on Dec 1st...
"It has been pointed out that Bev Harris was scheduled to be on Countdown back on November 8 but her appearance was cancelled. I havent addressed this before, either. But we didnt cancel on her - we wanted, on that first night raising this touchy subject nobody else had previously covered, to have more mainstream guests. And we wanted her back another night. And since then weve wanted her to come back with her video. And she hasnt."

I was in the office the day she was to go to the Olberman Show. Right after they called her she was sure it was a "CIA attempt to silence her". The CIA operative was a woman named Pam Meeks...a wonderful woman who is an activist here in Seattle. She was in the office that afternoon to help...instead Bev and Kathleen lit into her...brelittled her and derided her to the point that she left and withdrew all support from BBV.org.

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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
54. Several factual inaccuracies
Edited on Tue Mar-08-05 09:31 PM by bailey77
Harris was scheduled to be on Olbermann on Nov 5 and Olbermann cancelled, then scheduled again Nov 8, and Olbermann cancelled.

Harris never turned down the show. What happened was that Olbermann's producers never reached her after the Nov 8 cancellation.

Kathleen Wynne was in the office on Nov. 8, but Harris was not in the office. There was no discussion of CIA. Harris has met Meeks only once, in June, when Meeks was urging Harris to persuade Andy Stephenson to stop running for secretary of state because she didn't think he would be good for the job. Meeks invited Harris and candidate Laura Ruderman to her house. Harris declined to do any persuading of any candidate, explaining that it shouldn't be done as a nonprofit 501c(3).

Apparently Meeks came to the office without an appointment, but Harris was out returning a rental car. Harris was in a car with Votergate filmmakers at the time of the Olbermann cancellation.

There was no "belittling" or "deriding" because Harris was not even in the office that afternoon.

Stephenson wasn't in the office most of the time either. Perhaps he was there that day. What doesn't hang together in this exercise in creative writing is the quote of "Harris" and the description of that afternoon. Harris was in Renton at that time, about 20 miles south of the office where Black Box Voting was stationed at the time.

Soooo... was the "belittling and deriding" on the telephone? Who did it?

You see, stories told on the Internet are only that. They need rebuttals, or at least, the other side should be told.

Actually, this all seems like a colossal waste of time. Is anyone working on the issue tonight?
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #54
267. If I had to choose whose version to believe,
I'd take Keith's word over Bev - ANY day.

Sad, this. I had hoped Bev was buried on DU long ago. I'm not a believer in reincarnation, Bailey77, but after reading this, I'm going to have to re-think that.

If anyone wants me to perform an exorcism, I'm available.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #267
268. Actually, the Mods banished her foul spirit
Wednesday, bless their overworked souls.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
18. kick
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
25. As Demobabe mentioned
there are other "Progressives" employing the same tactics and the real shame is that groups and orgs are being mislead and utilized for them to climb the progressive ladder and as a resume so that the thieves and conwomen can get someone like MoveOn to support them..

However, they don't realise that once they form a cluster (which they are doing - I call it the "Sucker Club") and go out and get some orgs to back them that the chickens will eventually come home to roost..

When the big boys find out that these are actually thieves and "fringe" folks who have screwed everyone in their path to try to get notoriety or repsect - that they will only be EXPOSED to the rest of the ACTUAL Progressive community, which is a small world really -

and in the end their names will be MUD.. Unfortunately, the poor groups and orgs they used and are using to promote their personal unethical practices will end up with egg on their faces as well..

which is too bad, because there are some caring and passionate ethical grassroot groups that will get "mowed down" just for being USED by these people - Penny Little and Bev Harris are two peas in a pod and the truth will come out, and it doesn't have to be at the hands of the true victims of their fraudulant actions - it will be someone like Randi or Wes Boyd who won't buy into their bullshit, they are delusional and stupid and our joy will be unbounded when they are unmasked, and they will be - what they say doesn't add up and in the end the truth WILL win out..

I feel sorry for the Votergate folks, a good group, I've spoken to the director and he's joining these "teach in's" and showings and has no idea WHO he's sitting next to, and what they've actually done --

Once they start spinning their web of lies it becomes more impossible to keep track of them, and they get caught -- the truth is never a problem to remember, and always adds up --

so I'll stick with the truth and in the end the truth WILL Prevail..

THanks for the update for the newbies, they also need to be aware that Penny Little is NOT the director and sole owner of the film "Electile Dysfunction" so if they see this embarrassment of a hodgepodge of incomprehensible films clips they should understand that most of the best parts of that film - (co owned by Takebackthemedia.com, who concieved the idea, got the ball rolling with their contacts, and continued to bring stars in the field and screen, invested every cent they owned, wrote the script, scheduled months of travel and interviews, WROTE the questions for the interviewees, created at least 10 supurb animations for it,etc and basically directed the film as well) - most of the best parts ended up on the cutting room floor..

Once takebackthemedia.com had been exhausted of funds and most of their contacts (we held some biggies back as insurance) we were abandoned, at which time the "director" took anyone's money she could and stuck them and their clients in the film so as to lose the message almost entirely -- it became a PR person's vehicle to promote THEIR clients - and that's why it makes no sense - except for the first 20 minutes which were ON script (the one we wrote) and most of that was supplied by another film maker as well, Bud Clifton..

GO watch it, let US know what you think (we like the honest answers we get, rather than her handing out cards and getting the audience to feel sorry for her by making statements like, "This film may live or die depending on your responses.."..

That's sort of like stuffing the ballot box and creating SPIN to save your ass - making people feel sorry for you is not what I call test marketing a film - if you don't have any real vision then I guess you need the audience to make the film for you..

These are just general statements for folks to digest, considering that both Penny Little and *I* are considered "Public Figures" just like Bev Harris then it's not really calling someone out (a violation of the rules here) - as public figures we get to take our lumps from anyone in the media or any group - part of the price of fame..

Please let Takebackthemedia.com know of any and all screenings of Electile Dysfunction - we've already got folks attending them and if they are public, documenting them so that we can tell the whole story at some point, and people will no longer be mislead - especially well meaning groups that aren't getting the whole picture..

David, you are doing the Progressives a great service, remember folks, we cannot demand others be ethical if WE ARE NOT OURSELVES.
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Ruthless, shameless, ambitious people in politics? Shocking!
You ain't never going to change that. Politics is about power and money and thus attracts the bevs of the world like moths to a flame.

i've always thought that the organizational success of the rethugs has been in part ecreated by their noin-queasyness about harnessing ruthlessness, shamelessness, and ambition. Where Dems reward only club-member status, the rethugs trade power and money for results.

Bev is a perfect example. If BBV was a rethug issue, the rethugs would have immediately recognized both her drive and the potential liability of her self-serving streak--then they would havemade it work for them. There would have been no need for her to, say, short diebold because she would have been funded by scaife, given noteriety by FOX, had her book published by regency, and been given grass roots help by the RNC.

She would have gotten what she craved and they would be in complete control. One false move by bev, and it all would end, complete with a well orchestrated smear campaign (see David Brock) They do this with all their activists (see David Brock) and so should the Dems.
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
27. Anyone who didn't recognize Harris' schtick from day 1 is,
quite frankly, a dope.

But that being said, it's important to focus on the goal, not on the fact that Bev's reputation has, as it was destined to, become a small liability to the cause. Minor is the key word:enough non-pretend players are involved in this that The Antics of Bev Harris are damn near irrelevent.




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demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. I wouldn't agree with that
If you didn't know Bev's background and just started talking to her say, today, most people would consider her a knowledgeable and nice person dedicated to her cause.

You don't see all the people she's used and discarded to appear to be knowledgeable about the subject.

And right after the election, so many folks were in complete shock over the result, we wanted somebody - ANYBODY to fix the wrong we saw. Bev came in saying she was going to go after Florida, and unless you were following the elections really close, it wouldn't have been obvious that she was barking up the wrong tree and was not going to be able to deliver what a lot of folks were thinking she would.

Most humans are a sucker for nice, assertive, smiling people that tell them what they want to hear. I'm one of them, unfortunately, though I didn't contribute to Bev's organization.
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Equating personality with trustworthiness is a newbie mistake
If a healthy cynicism about the motives of everyone involved with politics wasn't enough to raise some eyebrows then the fact that someone posted the cigar thing and her repeated employment of PR for Dummiestechniques should have been.

What explains Bev's recent activites or lack thereof? Put your thinking cap on.
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demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. That's exactly it
If only everyone who sees Bev's posts or talked to her could know the history - the cigars, etc., then they might see through it. This is exactly why David posts threads like this and why we need them!

But when you have Randi Rhodes, syndicated radio host on Air America lending credibility to Bev --- if Randi trusts Bev, why shouldn't we, if we trust Randi as a credible source?

We saw what happened with Bev on Randi's show and Randi's reaction to the whole thing - she felt duped, and she's not stupid!

She didn't get it from Day One, just like me...
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #30
55. Harris is a knowledgable nice person
surprise.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #55
76. And so was Atilla
The Hun...
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Now, now Andy
Comparing Bev to Attila the Hun could get you sued by the Hun family.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #55
146. Sure, she is nice (NOT)
As long as you are worshiping at her feet as if she's a GODDESS. The moment you dare to question anything she says, she becomes a vicious, lying animal.

Any reporter who DARES to question her sources or methods is labeled part of a "CIA conspiracy." Just 2 weeks ago, I spoke with an international reporter who dared to do just that.

Poor Bev, she's slipped from liar to delusional.
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #146
168. Have you met her? (Didn't think so)
Harris does not use terms like "CIA conspiracy." She does refer to the CIA in a PowerPoint presentation, and in that, the word conspiracy is not used, but an emblem of the CIA is used with two bullet points -- one about the CIA's second largest budget expense in the 80s (influencing foreign elections) and the second bullet point, sourced to the congressional record, is that the CIA requested (and got) voting machine software in 1984.

Name the reporter. The exchange you indicate -- that an international reporter questioned sources or methods and was met with a vicious lying animal who said the words "CIA conspiracy" -- this, like many other posts here, is a fabrication.

Now, you should actually meet Harris, or at least call her and interview her yourself.

It is shocking to me that individuals like you will make up such drivel. It does not help the movement at all.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #168
176. Now I have to go pull the post where you tell
people that if they don't hear from you for more than two days (i don't remember exactly the time period) people should assume something happened to you.

Now, you should actually meet Harris, or at least call her and interview her yourself.

And you'll get RIGHT back to him, just like you did with Keith Oberlmann and Randi Rhodes.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #168
200. Sadly, I have
And watched her perform for the cameras. I was truly sorry I watched such an embarassing display of hyperbole and spin.

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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #200
205. this is probably the cue for "bailey" to say you never met her
... because she knows everything Bev Harris ever did! Even in private conversations with no one else present! And she certainly never used hyperbole, right?

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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #205
211. Uh huh.....
just like those private conversations about her bank accounts. :evilgrin:
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Alpharetta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. I agree
I am an embedded software developer here in Georgia who got totally turned off during her challenge of Georgia's voting machines. I really wanted to help but she did not know how to build an organization she could trust.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #35
134. "did not know how to build an organization she could trust"
This is the key here. Why should any of us have ever assumed that someone good at publicity would necessarily be good at organization building? Whatever her skills at the former, it's plain that she seriously sucks at the latter, and furthermore can't possibly admit to herself any shortcomings.

I don't think it's a good idea to try to stop her from speaking on the subject of BBV--just don't give her any money. It's more than clear that she hasn't a clue about what to do with it, or what do do with a big influx of possible volunteers.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #134
155. She can talk about BBV until she's blue in the face
but when she starts lying about the facts to make herself look glorious and by trashing other people, that cannot be permitted.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #134
173. Organization building takes a financial base and personnel
Black Box Voting was financed for only two employees until shortly before the election. The two employees were Andy Stephenson and Bev Harris.

Black Box Voting is now funded for more employees, and has been building the proper infrastructure for a larger, more permanent organization.

You can't build an organization without salaries, and the initial seed money was only for direct investigation. Investigative reporting is a one or two person job.

Permanent nonprofit status is a bigger job, and requires grant writing, a business manager, an accounting entity, and an office space.

The confluence of election-related deadlines, which required hitting the ground with investigative work immediately after the election, with an increase in funding -- and for the zillionth time, this did not come primarily from either DU or Randi Rhodes -- well, that was challenging.

The organization was not funded for nor did it have a volunteer manager. As other organizations have learned, volunteers can only play certain roles anyway. For example, you can't have a volunteer do your accounting, and as Harris learned (the hard way) you can't have a volunteer as a webmaster.

Volunteers can't be given mission-critical work unless very closely supervised, and that supervision is not trivial.

For anyone actually interested in the facts, it is the infrastructure of Black Box Voting that Harris concentrated on from Christmas through the end of January. That organization, which had operated on a shoestring with only two people working on their own computers out of their homes, was converted into a more formal organization.

That involved leasing a small space, putting in a multi-line phone system, hiring personnel, in the case of Kathleen Wynne, relocating her from Ohio, getting modest office furniture, upgrading the Web site to a more secure environment, redoing the forums, which had been continuously trolled and penetrated by unauthorized "admins"; setting up the computer network, getting the right software, getting a fax machine, a document scanner, beefing up the board of directors, setting up a petty cash account, and a million other administrivia details.

The accounting and business infrastructure was placed on higher priority than hiring a volunteer coordinator. Members of the BBV Cleanup Crew, who had been communicated with every couple weeks with do-it-yourself projects, like the "be your own media" campaign, are gradually being brought in as helpers in scanning and project helpers.

Black Box Voting still has two investigators, but they still divide their time with infrastructure work in order to create a more stable and permanent organization. BBV also has other personnel now, and has built a more stable Web presence.

The audits are beginning to show results, and new investigations are still being published regularly.

This was a challenging task, in that the organization building could not take place until the funding was in place; peak interest in funding coincided of course with the election, which was also the peak for investigative deadlines.

Have patience. The permanent organization is evolving nicely.
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
28. thank you for this thread, David
for newbies and those who have forgotten .

very important to keep people reminded of how "Bev" is !
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
34. Sad but all true! Good job David!
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
36. Kick it up
I bought into Bev's bullshit for a little while, but it became painfully clear that she wasn't what she pretended to be.

Thanks for this thread.
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
37. Nice try, guys.
The timing, given what's just been posted on http://www.blackboxvoting.org and what Teresa Heinz Kerry is now saying, is mighty transparent.

Unlike our elections.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. So, what dire deed are you accusing us of?
Have you forgotten? John Kerry is in on the conspiracy according to Bev.

I notice you didn't miss and opportunity to pop in and plug Bev with a URL.

Sorry, we have enough links here. All discreditng Bev.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. I was the one that sat down in GLADES county
and made a copy of their entire system. As a matter of fact I am looking at the Disk as we speak. Harris would not have had her data to play with...Had it not been for me. She has no clue how to copy a system as I did. All she did was yell at the election official.
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #44
56. factual inaccuracies
It's all on videotape. There was no yelling.

You should not have outed this official, who is a sweet lady only trying to do the right thing. She was taken advantage of by a greedy vendor. Your judgement in making this post was poor. The story is important, because it shows how vulnerable our voting system is in the small counties.

It was not important or a wise choice to out the public official who didn't know any better -- not until she is given some cover by congressional officials or others have done the same thing.

I hope you will go edit the name out of your post. I will then delete this post.

Harris can obviously copy files -- she downloaded 40,000 files from Diebold. It was Stephenson who sat at the computer, but Harris who got permission for him to do so, and Harris who tested the password (which is 'diebold'). A team of investigators works together.

Investigators are also use good judgement about what information to release, and the consequences of releasing sensitive information that can hurt someone, just to get attention.

The name of this public official is available to the judicial committee and to others who have a real need to know.

Please edit your post, Andy. You can make your point without making that person lose her job -- she's at least trying to run a clean election, and she represents hundreds of other hapless officials trying to run complicated systems when they know nothing about computers.



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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #56
75. Bev Be Gone!
did it work? or is she still here?
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #75
87. Still here I am afraid.
I am waiting for the mods to bannish her yet again.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. Notice that when her attempts to dodge the facts failed
she resorted to personal accusations and smears. Classic Bev tactic, so while it may not be Bev, Bev is in the room with the typist.

She hopes to provoke one of us to an outburst, so she starts by calling me "unhinged" and then insinuating you malingering. What a piece of work this clown is.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #88
90. She won't answer me though

:shrug:
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #90
133. Stephanie: What are you doing to further voting reform?
Having someone for a house guest for a few days doesn't give you any real insight into how they perform as an employee.

Some of the most charming people do the least work.

You really are making a lot of assumptions about who and what to believe based on very little first-hand information.

Of course, you wouldn't even need opinions on this if you were busy working to keep the Sequoia touch-screens out of New York, where they are headed.

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #133
156. Classic Bev question
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #156
215. It's a nice way of turning things back around, right?
If you don't want to answer a question, simply attack the questioner with an attack question. "What have you done?" It's meant to intimidate the other person so that the original question is forgotten.

"What have you done for election reform?" is kinda the "Want to buy some wood?" * question, isn't it?

Thanks for this post, David. DUers need to never forget what happened here and to you and Andy.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #133
169. Bev, what I am doing at the moment is trying to keep you from duping
any more people. When are you going to publicly account for the money you raised here at DU and on Randi Rhodes' show? How much did you raise, and what have you done with it? As a non-profit you should have nothing to hide. Where's the money, Bev?
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #169
175. An accounting firm specializing in nonprofits was engaged
the holdup is reconstructing several months worth of accounting records that Andy Stephenson was supposed to have been doing, but didn't, or at least, didn't provide to the organization upon departure.

This meant new bank statements had to be ordered. The accounting firm is preparing the statement as of the year-end for nonprofits, and after the year-end statement is complete, it will also be submitted to an independent auditor from a reputable accounting firm.

I take it you have also asked for -- no, make that demanded -- financial statements ahead of schedule, from VerifiedVoting.org -- with over 200,000 members, they raised far more than Black Box Voting. And you regularly ask for DU's financials, right? Or is it that you don't hold anyone else to the same standard?

The appropriate steps were to work with a professional firm to do the first year-end statement. To the extent that previous work needs to be re-created, it delays things while bank statements are ordered and so forth, but not by much.

A general accounting of the Randi Rhodes money was published on the Black Box Voting web site shortly before year end. The formal statement is being prepared by an accounting firm. It will be available on the same schedule as all the other nonprofits follow.

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #175
184. Would this be the same fake CPA
you tried to fob off on me?

the holdup is reconstructing several months worth of accounting records that Andy Stephenson was supposed to have been doing, but didn't, or at least, didn't provide to the organization upon departure.

Andy has turned into a terribly useful scapegoat hasn't he? Any discrepancy in the books and Andy will take the blame.

Sneaky, she is, sneaky.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #184
217. Andy is also responsible for the Hoffa killing, dontcha know?
That Andy - he's one bad dude.

(As are you, David.)
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #175
201. Here's the thing
VerifiedVoting.org wasn't actively fundraising on DU, nor is there the type of scandal and bad business that is attached to BBV.org. The difference between VerifiedVoting and DU and BBV.org is that two have earned the public trust, and one has done anything but that. So it's easy to see why people are questioning where the money went and the motives behind it all.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #75
153. Psssst, Steph, I think ya gotta drop a house or toss water
:evilgrin:
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #153
160. ROFL!!!!!!!
havocmom, that was priceless.

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #153
163. or "Activate the weasels!"
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
39. Paranoia.
That seemed to be a constant theme in her posts here and it sounds like her inability to trust anyone during the post election BBV campaign contributed to her ultimate failure. And her ego, of course.
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
40. Your job, David, seems to be personality disputes.
Bev's job is voting reform.

However, here is the other side of the story: Your post is replete with factual inaccuracies. With "proof" like you offer, no wonder your work isn't in the mainstream media.

erratic and toxic behavior

Note that David Allen never met Bev Harris, and hasn't spoken to her on the phone for a year and a half. Adjectives aren't the same thing as "proof."

Access to DU is critical to Bev since it was an important source of cash

Though donations from DU members were appreciated, the most substantial part of Black Box Voting revenues comes from grants, not from DU members. Randi Rhodes fundraiser also did not comprise the main part of BBV revenues. Black Box Voting is not, and has never been, dependent on DU for donations. That is not to say donations were not needed and appreciated -- but they are not and were not "critical" to BBV.

helpful researchers and credibility in the past

Actually, Harris broke the Hagel, Urosevich, Ahmanson (such as it is), and 100 miscounts stories, and found the Diebold files, before she had heard of DU. Most real journalists consider that research to be highly credible. Since that time, Harris has broken dozens more stories, primarily from shoes hitting the pavement. You can only do so much on the Internet, folks.

she has been disowned by folks like Randi Rhodes, Keith Olbermann and Mike Malloy

They may or may not have "disowned" Harris. News is news, and honest journalists report it regardless of personality tiffs. Media personnel are known to have large egos, and both Olberman and Malloy have had more than their share of "tiffs" and being "disowned."

Among those who have not "disowned" Black Box Voting and Harris:

Tonight: Mike Webb Show, 10 p.m. Pacific
KCFP
Air America affiliates throughout the USA
Seattle Post-Intelligencer
Palm Beach Post
Fox TV News
NBC News
Miami Herald

Though the election is over, Harris is interviewed 3-4 times a week, more often when traveling.

this official post:

An 800-page unrebutted trashfest. DU moderators broke their own rules and banned the moderate voices, who can now be found in the forums at http://www.blackboxvoting.org, where the elections reform dialog is lively and cerebral.

The responses to this thread are numerous, but vitally important to read, especially if you are contemplating giving your time or money to Bev Harris and her organization.

Please don't give your money to the organization. Instead, give your time to the cause of voting reform.

Bev painted herself as a liberal activist (lately she strives for the status of a non-partisan) which she is not.

David Allen has never met Bev Harris and has no idea what her politics is. However, the facts are: She voted for Kerry, but would have preferred Dean. She trends Democrat but maintains no formal party affiliation, and usually votes a split ticket, mostly Democrat with an occasional Green or Republican candidate, based on who she thinks is best for the job.

She ran an anti-Clinton product site (Bev Dudley is Bev's real name and Talion is her company):

Talion Publicity was a company owned by Bev Harris. It was a publicity company she gave up when she found the Diebold files. She had over 300 clients, mostly authors and entrepreneurs, with some politicians. She represented both left and right wing politics until Oct 2002, when she stopped representing anything but progressive causes. Among the authors she promoted: Thom Hartmann and Greg Palast. She also handled works opposing the Patriot Act, publicized a book on Hispanic politics (which is not a unified block, despite stereotyping). She never had an "anti-Cinton Web site" but she had a client, a cigar company, for a four-week stint which marketed Clinton cigars. Nothing in the site was anti-Clinton except that the cigar was a joke, with the press release a series of double-entendres. Harris voted for Clinton.

She claims Bush supports her cause and was currying favor with freepers:

A thread on Democratic Underground is opinion, not journalism. Bush had his personal librarian order the book. Harris reported that (and that they asked to have it overnighted, but she waited two weeks before sending it). Spinning that into "Bush supports her cause" is inaccurate reporting. Harris does not "curry favor with freepers" but she does interact with people from all political backgrounds. Voting reform is not an issue owned by the Democrats.

She also counts people like Jim March as one of her most invaluable aids (and a board member of her foundation):

Black Box Voting, Inc. is not a foundation. It is a nonprofit 501c(3). Black Box Voting has seven board members. Jim March is one, and has been very effective in many ways, especially with litigation and lobbying. The Black Box Voting directors are seven people: Four African American civil rights advocates, three voting machines activists.

She invents "crisis situations" where she claims to be attacked by "The Forces of Evil", when nothing of the sort has happened:

I've never seen Harris use a term like "the forces of evil." I have seen members of DU -- the person who now goes by "Kelvin Mace" in particular, use hyperbole, including comparing Harris to the dark lord of Mordor. (!) Much of what is reported here is actually just opinions and posts from people who have never met Harris.

She has routinely smeared fellow activists, allies and colleagues:

at last printing, the DU one-sided hatebag prints out to 2,000 pages of smears. While you see the denizons of this thread posting personality smears, what you see Harris reporting -- and what I have been posting -- focuses on the issue, on important investigative work, and on the nuts and bolts of election reform.

She refused to cooperate with other activists putting her ego ahead of stopping BBV

Harris spends most of her day cooperating with other activists. Just in the last six weeks, she has worked with at least 20 groups in four states. Harris's activist Rolodex has over 10,000 active election reform workers, most of whom are out working in real life, not on the Internet. There are egos, everyone has them. Watch what people DO, not what they post on Internet forums, and you'll get a better feel for who they are.

qui tam

Harris has never profited from any qui tam action. She did win $2.6 million for the taxpayers of California. Of this, there may be a payment to Harris for her work in bringing the suit -- estimated at $75,000. It has not been paid yet, and there will be a hearing March 11. Harris agreed at the outset of the case, and has gone on record with the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, that the proceeds will be donated as a restricted donation and must be used for further litigation for voting reform.

Harris arranged to donate $2000 to the lawyers in Ohio, to help pay for their defense against a sanction effort. She has already launched the next lawsuit, a consumer protection suit in California, and in another hearing, also on March 11, will seek to prevail over Diebold's motion to dismiss. If successful, Harris and Jim March will be able to take Diebold into discovery this spring, another first.

Bev Harris has done more damage to this issue by her pursuit of cash and fame.

There has been no pursuit of cash. Harris shut down a lucrative business to make sure to push the voting issue into the mainstream. A publicist, she did this effectively. She went without income altogether for a year and a half, and when the nonprofit was formed, took a modest salary, about half what she had been earning before, of $60,000 per year.

Harris has never collected any money from any lawsuit, and any money collected in a qui tam will be turned over to the nonprofit and used for additional litigation.

She has alienated countless reporters in print and TV with her legal threats and abusive rants which makes legitimate activists job that much harder.

The mainstream media continues to call and interview Harris every day. Olbermann continues to report on the issue. Within the last 10 days, in addition to Fox TV News (San Diego) and NBC, and Mike Webb, Harris did an interview for the magazine "Colors" on the issues of voting and minority rights.

(Bev claimed that Randi's show raised only $23,000 for her. Insiders put the figure at $300,000)

Real insiders -- the board of directors who actually handled the deposits and manage the checkbook -- put the figure much lower. Five people from Black Box Voting did media nonstop for 4 months, and the $300,000 figure represents fund raising over that period of time among all media venues.

Additional monies were raised through grants.

Andy Stephenson was not an insider on any financial dealings after October 2004, when he was taken off of accounting. Black Box Voting has yet to get his "books."

This is not about opinion or points of view, it is about fact.

Yes, and the facts are not what you are reporting.

Bev has damaged people's reputation, cost them large sums of money with her legal bullying (and I am not talking about Diebold and election officials, I am talking about her former activists and helpers)

Um, post an invoice? Complete b.s.

Harris reserves legal wrangling for voting machine companies and uncooperative public officials. She had her attorney send one letter to David Allen for nonperformance. She has pointed out the most egregious examples of defamation in the past, but has never taken any action on those. She hasn't sued anyone except Diebold and Teresa LePore, though those entities may soon be joined by Sequoia and Riverside County, CA.

It is regrettable this is necessary, but Bev's "help" is making our job harder.

Your "job" would be much easier if you focus on the issues, instead of spending all your time attacking Bev Harris, who continues to break story after story. (listen to Mike Webb tonight for two new breaking stories).
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rockedthevoteinMA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. Huh?
Five people from Black Box Voting did media nonstop for 4 months

What are you talking about? Her personality alone caused the one MSM o
outlet who was interested in covering the issue to refuse to do so.

Perhaps you should do some reading of the threads David has been so kind to provide before you try and tell him what way is up?
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #40
50. Really???
"Andy Stephenson was not an insider on any financial dealings after October 2004, when he was taken off of accounting. Black Box Voting has yet to get his "books.""

Really?

I have all the credit card deposit transactions from July...Which I sent to Bev...I do have the emails and send dates.

Has yet to get my books? Umm you state...

Real insiders -- the board of directors who actually handled the deposits and manage the checkbook -- put the figure much lower.

How can you sit there and say I handled the "books"??? Either I handled the books...or the "real insiders" handled the books Which is it?

"Harris has never collected any money from any lawsuit, and any money collected in a qui tam will be turned over to the nonprofit and used for additional litigation."

No it will be used to pay her comfortable salary...and first class travel.

Randi Rhodes fundraiser also did not comprise the main part of BBV revenues.

BULLSHIT. Until Randi and Mike started fund raising for BBV...it was hand to mouth! Trust me...I heard Bev bitch about money often!.



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #58
73. Amusing...
Is it true that you deposited over $6,000 for bookstore sales when your contractual agreement required you to turn them over to the author? Wait -- you, too, had a PayPal account. Raised thousands and thousands, saying you were going to use it for a dedicated server. Where is the server?

Is it true that Bev Harris actually deposited many of the checks intended for her "501(c)3 into her own bank account? Is it true that Bev p
Two can play that game.
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #73
109. Nope, it's not true.
That one lie should make Andy Stephenson fear to meet his maker.

By the way, Bev Harris hasn't had a personal bank account since July 2003.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #109
117. My, you know so MUCH about Bev
you think you live with her.

Did you major in Bev Harris trivia?

By the way, there is another fire you need to attend to:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

So much truth to bury with lame lies.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #117
162. Awww, David, you tell EVERYONE about personal finances
Don't you? I mean, seriously, don't you tell anyone who asks all about how many personal bank accounts you have? That's dinner table conversation, dear! Come on, now, admit you tell everyone how long it's been since you had a dime in your accounts and how long you've had them!

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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #109
258. WOW! You are one SICK, SICK woman, Bev!
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 10:01 AM by Stephanie

I missed this post before - just re-reading and came across it. If anyone ever, ever defends Bev Harris in any way, please direct them to this post. Bev this remark is going to haunt you for the rest of your life - I will make sure of it.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #109
260. Well, given the fact that her bank
revoked her ability process credit cards through her Talion PR business for chargeback problems, this might be true on one level. This dates to the time she was asking me and Roxanne to use our accounts to process credit card charges for her (which is illegal and we declined).

On another level it is a weasel lie. She does have an account in her married name through her husband's credit union at Boeing.

This remark:

That one lie should make Andy Stephenson fear to meet his maker.

Was what convinced me this was Bev posting. She is given to these religous-type comments when she starts losing it.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #109
270. Please do not speak on behalf of God.
And I think that to make such statements when Andy is fearing for his life is the epitome of sadistic behavior.

Although I would not presume to speak on behalf of God, I am fairly certain that this kind of personal attack won't gain you any favors in the other world. If anyone here has anything to fear, you might try looking in the mirror first.

To quote a bumpersticker: "Mean People Suck"
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #270
271. Thank you
That one lie should make Andy Stephenson fear to meet his maker.

What a remarkable phrase to post on a progressive message board. It sounds Freeper to me.
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #50
236. You Did, Until 10/04
And Black Box has requested several times that you return all the records- more than just credit card deposit receipts.

The Rhandi Rhodes fundraising was not approved. BBV didn't even know about it. I was contacted by another activist to warn me the site was down. RR didn't even have a snail mail address to send to.

Does this sound like a "planned" fundraiser?

BBV did not ask for this. Bev did not ask for this. If we had, I think we'd have made sure the site could handle it, that alternate addresses were given out, and that folks were told how to direct what the donations were for.

And no, it was not the RR fundraiser that put BBV above hand to mouth existance. Plans were in the works to organize before the RR show that had to be scrapped at the last minute while everyone went to Florida. I got the task of cancelling an appointment for that very purpose. I was there.


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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #40
66. Lies, distortions and dodging the questions
"Your job, David, seems to be personality disputes."

Bev's job is voting reform.

Actually, Bev's job is self-enrichment. My job, such as it is has been voting reform. While Bev runs around the country and runs her mouth, some of us actually are trying to fix things. And we do it while not talking people out of money with stories of imaginary gag orders and claims of being Bush's pal.

http://www.ncleg.net/committees/jointselectcomm_/2004me...
http://www.ncleg.net/committees/jointselectcomm_/2005in...

However, here is the other side of the story: Your post is replete with factual inaccuracies. With "proof" like you offer, no wonder your work isn't in the mainstream media.

And when have I ever sought a position in the "main stream media"? I'm a comic book publisher. Before that I was a systems engineer who wrote the odd technology column. Only person claiming to be something she isn't is Bev who ran around telling people she was an investigative reporter. Hmmm... someone pretending to be a reporter who isn;t. That's familiar.

Note that David Allen never met Bev Harris, and hasn't spoken to her on the phone for a year and a half. Adjectives aren't the same thing as "proof."

Actually, I last spoke to Bev on the phone Feb 12th, 2004 at 10:40 PM EST. I keep good records. A year and a half ago would be September 2003. If Bev can't avoid lying on such a basic easily provable issue like this, she's pretty pathetic. So, that's lie #1 for you.

Randi Rhodes fundraiser also did not comprise the main part of BBV revenues. Black Box Voting is not, and has never been, dependent on DU for donations. That is not to say donations were not needed and appreciated -- but they are not and were not "critical" to BBV.

If DU were not important to Bev, you wouldn't be wasting time here. That's lie #2

An 800-page unrebutted trashfest. DU moderators broke their own rules and banned the moderate voices, who can now be found in the forums at http://www.blackboxvoting.org, where the elections reform dialog is lively and cerebral.

Lie #3 and please note she plugs bbv.org with a link yet again.

Actually, Harris broke the Hagel, Urosevich, Ahmanson (such as it is), and 100 miscounts stories, and found the Diebold files, before she had heard of DU. Most real journalists consider that research to be highly credible. Since that time, Harris has broken dozens more stories, primarily from shoes hitting the pavement. You can only do so much on the Internet, folks.

She did this while being paid to do research and PR for Steve Hertzberg. She found the Diebold files but had no clue what they were until it was explained to her. "Most real journalists"? Depends on your definitions, so we'll just call it Lies #4 & #5

They may or may not have "disowned" Harris. News is news, and honest journalists report it regardless of personality tiffs. Media personnel are known to have large egos, and both Olberman and Malloy have had more than their share of "tiffs" and being "disowned."

"May or not"? Damn, are you taking lesson from Scotty McClellan? I have posted Olberman's words on the matter and there is no question about it. As for Malloy and Rhodes, I don't hear Bev on these shows any more.

Tonight: Mike Webb Show, 10 p.m. Pacific
KCFP
Air America affiliates throughout the USA
Seattle Post-Intelligencer
Palm Beach Post
Fox TV News
NBC News
Miami Herald

Oh please. You actually have the gall to come on this site and claim you have credibility because you are covered by FOX NEWS????!!! What next? The Weekly World News?

David Allen has never met Bev Harris and has no idea what her politics is.

That is like someone telling me I have no idea what Ann Coulter's politics are because I have never met her. No, I haven't met her, but I can see the company she keeps and the way she made her money pandering to the Rush Limbaugh crowd.

However, the facts are: She voted for Kerry, but would have preferred Dean. She trends Democrat but maintains no formal party affiliation, and usually votes a split ticket, mostly Democrat with an occasional Green or Republican candidate, based on who she thinks is best for the job.

OK folks, anyone want to check the voter registration roles and see if Bev was registered? As I recall Bev admitted in one interview that she voted for the first time in 2002.

She never had an "anti-Cinton Web site" but she had a client, a cigar company, for a four-week stint which marketed Clinton cigars. Nothing in the site was anti-Clinton except that the cigar was a joke, with the press release a series of double-entendres. Harris voted for Clinton.

Claiming that selling Monica cigars is not "anti-Clinton" is Lie #6. Claiming Bev did this for a client is Lie #7. If we review the web site (damned inconvenient this internet) we note that the ordering address and FAX and phone numbers are all Bev's. If Bev had done this for a client, she would have produced evidence by now to prove this. I am also sure that if I dig back into the archives I will discover posts on newsgroups spanning much more than a "four-week stint".

A thread on Democratic Underground is opinion, not journalism. Bush had his personal librarian order the book. Harris reported that (and that they asked to have it overnighted, but she waited two weeks before sending it). Spinning that into "Bush supports her cause" is inaccurate reporting. Harris does not "curry favor with freepers" but she does interact with people from all political backgrounds. Voting reform is not an issue owned by the Democrats.

I'm being lectured on journalism by the representative of a fake journalist. I wasn't quoting DU, I was quoting Bev.

BevHarrisadmin
Member since Jul-11-03
1718 posts Dec-03-04, 10:17 PM (PST)

8. "Please do not bash 'freepers' -- here's why"
In response to message #7

that is a term that comes from Free Republic, a political forum. Free Republic has had some outstanding discussions on voting machine integrity in the past. I have gotten some good consultation from "freepers."

We are nonpartisan. Everyone who's not a criminal wants clean elections. One of our board members, Jim March, has done some fantastic work on this issue, and I guess you'd describe him as a "freeper" -- he's a gun lobbyist who supports George Bush.

You may be very surprised at who's in our corner on this issue. In fact, George Bush ordered my book, had it overnighted.

Thanks.

Bev


Her own words which you are trying to dance around.

Black Box Voting, Inc. is not a foundation. It is a nonprofit 501c(3). Black Box Voting has seven board members. Jim March is one, and has been very effective in many ways, especially with litigation and lobbying. The Black Box Voting directors are seven people: Four African American civil rights advocates, three voting machines activists.

Ooo you got me. I called your organization a foundation instead of what it is, a 501c(3) gravy train for Bev Harris.

People are judged by the company they keep. Mr. March has made it quite clear he is in the for the money.

And having black people on your board proves what? I'm a civil rights advocate and a voting machine activist and a liberal activist of long standing. I'll put my credentials up agains Bev's any day. Surrounding yourself with a few minorities does not confer legitimacy.


I've never seen Harris use a term like "the forces of evil." I have seen members of DU -- the person who now goes by "Kelvin Mace" in particular, use hyperbole, including comparing Harris to the dark lord of Mordor. (!) Much of what is reported here is actually just opinions and posts from people who have never met Harris.

It's Forces of Evil. Do get it right as Karl Rove can get very cranky about his trademark. You know, like BBV Clean Up Crew Wouldn't want anyone to get sued.

Did I compare her to Sauron? Gee, I'll have to look that one up.

Now you are deliberately misreading sarcasm. I assume this means you would like me to post the emails from Bev where she claims she fears her phone is tapped, people have bugged her computer etc. Does Bev REALLY wish these emails to become part of the public record? They don't reflect well on her soundness of mind.

BTW, I do not go by "Kelvin Mace", that is my user name. My real name appears at the bottom of my posts. Your snide remark here was meant to imply that I hide behind a pseudonym. Looking around I only see one person in this conversation hiding behind a fake name. Any idea who that could be Bailey77? (Your real name isn't Guckert by chance? Damn these Jeff Gannon parallels just keep coming.)


the DU one-sided hatebag prints out to 2,000 pages of smears. While you see the denizons of this thread posting personality smears, what you see Harris reporting -- and what I have been posting -- focuses on the issue, on important investigative work, and on the nuts and bolts of election reform.

No, what you have been posting has been attempts to lure innocent DUers into Bev's scheme. If you don't like what I write, go elsehwere. If Bev doesn't like what I write she can sue me. Then we go to court trot out our documents and witnesses and see who's lying. Would you like me to post a list of ALL the people Bev has threatened to sue? It's pretty long. (and I don't mean Diebold)

Harris has never profited from any qui tam action. She did win $2.6 million for the taxpayers of California. Of this, there may be a payment to Harris for her work in bringing the suit -- estimated at $75,000. It has not been paid yet, and there will be a hearing March 11. Harris agreed at the outset of the case, and has gone on record with the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, that the proceeds will be donated as a restricted donation and must be used for further litigation for voting reform.

It's Bev foundation, er I mean 501(c)3 gravy train. Money goes in and Bev benefits. Of course you are skipping the point that Bev SWORE she would never file a qui tam:

"We aren't soiling ourselves with Qui Tam money."


There has been no pursuit of cash. Harris shut down a lucrative business to make sure to push the voting issue into the mainstream. A publicist, she did this effectively. She went without income altogether for a year and a half, and when the nonprofit was formed, took a modest salary, about half what she had been earning before, of $60,000 per year.

I have number of Bev's former clients who beg to differ on her effectiveness as a publicist. We only have Bev's word about salary and that is worth about... mmmm... NOTHING at the current rate of exchange.

The mainstream media continues to call and interview Harris every day. Olbermann continues to report on the issue. Within the last 10 days, in addition to Fox TV News (San Diego) and NBC, and Mike Webb, Harris did an interview for the magazine "Colors" on the issues of voting and minority rights.

Interviewing her and actually publishing stories are two different things. Since you have had the audacity to cite Fox News again I will point out that a local Fox affiliate in San Diego is NOT Fox News. Olbermann still reports on the issue but Bev is not mentioned.

Real insiders -- the board of directors who actually handled the deposits and manage the checkbook -- put the figure much lower. Five people from Black Box Voting did media nonstop for 4 months, and the $300,000 figure represents fund raising over that period of time among all media venues.

Additional monies were raised through grants.

Andy Stephenson was not an insider on any financial dealings after October 2004, when he was taken off of accounting. Black Box Voting has yet to get his "books."

Who said it was Andy? I can't wait to see the financials.

Yes, and the facts are not what you are reporting.

Hmmm... I have provided multiple links and emails to buttress my case. Other than links to Bev's site you have not produced a shred of evidence to support ANYTHING you have said.

Harris reserves legal wrangling for voting machine companies and uncooperative public officials. She had her attorney send one letter to David Allen for nonperformance. She has pointed out the most egregious examples of defamation in the past, but has never taken any action on those. She hasn't sued anyone except Diebold and Teresa LePore, though those entities may soon be joined by Sequoia and Riverside County, CA.

No, Bev doesn't sue me because any attorney with half a brain will tell her (and has told her) she will lose and lose badly. Also, why should she endanger the gravy train she is riding by having the truth come out in court.

Your "job" would be much easier if you focus on the issues, instead of spending all your time attacking Bev Harris, who continues to break story after story. (listen to Mike Webb tonight for two new breaking stories).

Love how you worked that plug in for Bev. You are smooth. Maybe you can give Bev lessons. My moral obligation is to make sure Bev doesn't "relieve" anyone else of their money.
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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #40
209. If anyone thinks this ISN'T Bev Harris, I don't know what to tell you
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
59. Funny, how arsonists always come back to the scene
of their crimes to watch the flames.

I feel like I'm watching "What's My Line." Will the real Bev Harris please stand up? I recognize "her" writing style.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. See ya. Have fun.
We're off to work with people who are in it for democracy's sake, not to fill their own pockets with a fat paycheck.

As Roger Daltrey sang, "We won't get fooled again!"
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. Show evidence of the fat paycheck
Hasn't happened, but who bothers with facts?
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. And now...
...the end is near
And so I'll face
The final curtain
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. Show evidence of how much money you raised at DU and thru Randi Rhodes
And WHAT you did with the money.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #74
108. gee its funny stephanie ...
the minute you asked bev..i mean bailey for an accounting of " our" money ..bev, opps ...i mean bailey dissapeared!!

fly
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #108
115. Oh, we'll get an "accounting"
not the truth mind you. Just a neat bit of self-aggrandizing fiction.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #115
118. An audit by a public accounting firm

is more relevant than your predictions.

Then you can call them the dark lord of mordor as well.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #118
120. Now why would I call them,
a group of people, by a proper title denoting an individual? As they are a group, I would probably call them Ring Wraiths.

You know, I've tried to find the post where I called Bev the Dark Lord of Mordor, but just can't seem to find it.

Would you post a link?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #118
147. DU verses Bev Harris featured at Free Republic
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 07:13 AM by WillYourVoteBCounted
Since freepers and Free Republic were mentioned in this thread, I went over to that site (I am banned from posting there) and found that they had a similiar thread.

FYI
(http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1358796/po... )
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
79. Do you think
bashing Bev helps or hurts our cause? Just curious.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. "Bash"?
Is telling the truth bashing?

Did Bev's smearing and libeling fellow activists help or hurt our cause?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #81
89. "Truth"
I'm tring to fight election theft,Bev is trying to fight election theft.Most people at this website are trying to fight election theft.Its like if I went to a website that specializes in fighting crime and tried to tell everyone that the best crime fighter in their group had a bad attitude,or he smeared this guy or girl, so he must not be trying to fight crime? It don't make sense.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #89
94. Have you actually read
the posts documenting Bev's behavior?

How did Bev's attacks on Avi Rubin, Rebecca Mercuri, David Dill, Doug Jones nd many others help her "fight election theft". How did her shameful temper tantrum woth Keith Olbermann help? How did pissing off Mike Malloy and Randi Rhodes help? How did firing Andy and publicly denouncing him help?

Bev has taken credit for much of the work done by other people, then knifed them in the back and accused them of treachery.

Bev is not our best "crime fighter". She is an opportunist who is making a lot of money and making our job harder.

It is easy to sit back and ignore this when it is not your reputation being smeared.

If you best crime fighter is a crooked cop, he's a crooked cop and deserves no praise and no loyalty.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #94
103. I have
occupied you long enough,now it is someone else's turn,I got to go read some real threads now. See ya. By the way you avoided my first question.Do you think bashing Bev helps or hurts our cause?
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #103
110. And I made the point that I do not consider telling the truth
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 02:25 AM by Kelvin Mace
bashing. Does exposing an opportunist who is damaging our efforts and draining away resources help us?

Yes.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #103
223. Bev hurts our cause.
She is the cause of this mess. She has created this black oozing mess due to her ego and paranoia.

She hurts our cause. There are so many groups out there who are working on election reform without her. She is not the be-all, end-all of electon reform work.
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #89
222. But Bev is not the "best crime figher" in our group
Not by a long shot. There are too many other groups out there working on election reform - not just Bev's, although she'd have you believe that she's the only one and the "best" one to do the job.

Looking for a list of crime fighters? Here are some of them:

ProgGroupName ProgGroupWebsite
California Voter Foundation http://www.calvoter.org
Californians for Electoral Reform http://www.cfer.org
Case Ohio http://www.caseohio.org
Coalition for Verifiable Voting http://www.ncvoter.net
Cobb for President http://www.votecobb.org
Contest the Vote http://www.contestthevote.org /
Count Paper Ballots www.countpaperballots.com
Count the Vote www.countthevote.org
Demos http://www.demos-usa.org /
Electionline http://www.electionline.org/index.jsp
ExitPollz http://www.exitpollz.org
Fair Vote http://www.fairvote.org
Miami-Dade Election Reform Coalition http://www.reformcoalition.org /
National Ballot Integrity http://www.ballotintegrity.org
National Voting Rights Institute http://www.nvri.org
Nov 2 Truth http://www.Nov2Truth.org
Ohio Forward http://www.ohioforward.org
Ohio Vote Suppression News http://www.ohvotesuppression.blogspot.com /
Oregon Clean Vote http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OR_Clean_Vote /
Progressive Vote http://progressivevote.org
Project Vote Smart http://www.vote-smart.org /
Recount Ohio http://www.recountohio.org
Solarbus http://www.solarbus.org
Stolen Election 2004 http://www.stolenelection2004.org /
The Open Voting Consortium http://www.Openvotingconsortium.org
True Vote MD http://truevotemd.org
Truth in Voting http://www.truthinvoting.org /
United For Secure Elections no site found
US Counts Votes http://www.uscountvotes.org
US Voting Integrity Project http://www.usvip.org
Verified Voting http://www.verifiedvoting.org
Verified Voting New Mexico http://vvnm.org
Vote Watch 2004 http://vote2004.eriposte.com /
Voter Choice http://www.voterchoice.org
Voters Unite http://www.votersunite.org
We Do Not Concede Coalition http://www.donotconcede.com
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #79
82. I think it makes no difference
Bev is hurting the cause of ending BBV by trying to co-opt the movement and by damaging the reputations of people who sincerely want to help.

It's time to move away from the toxic cloud.
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #82
116. People who sincerely want to help are actually out there helping
Harris is not hurting the movement. In fact, David Allen is not really hurting the movement either. No one listens to him.

"The movement" isn't owned by DU, nor is much of it fought on DU. It is owned by citizens -- about 350,000 of them at last count -- and fortunately they don't pay much attention to petty turf wars on an Internet forum.

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #116
159. More classic Bev
In fact, David Allen is not really hurting the movement either. No one listens to him.

Then why do your have your knickers in a twist?

It is owned by citizens -- about 350,000 of them at last count -- and fortunately they don't pay much attention to petty turf wars on an Internet forum.

ACTIVATING THE EAGLES!!!

Folks, Bev may not being doing the typing, but she is dictating.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
84. Notice Bailey77
keeps talking about the thread getting locked?

This is wishful thinking on her part. The thread is now damaging to Bev and since this isn't bbv.org it won't be scrubbed. So, the best that can be hoped for is locking.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. The best that can be hoped for is Bev retires with her grifter's loot
and gets the hell out of the way - none of us has time for this BS.

Bev, get a clue. IT'S OVER. YOU BLEW IT. NOBODY BELIEVES YOU ANY MORE.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #85
86. Couldn't have said it better
;) :thumbsup:
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #85
119. What loot, Stephanie?
specifically, what loot?

Is hearing another side of the story so painful that it can't be tolerated?

There is no loot, and Harris certainly has no retirement account. In fact, that's what makes it so ironic that the very thing David Allen keeps harping on -- "cashing in" -- is opposite of the truth.

Now, suppose on March 11, the judge does award Harris the $76,000. If you had no retirement, had used up your savings in this effort, had written a book but the publisher failed to pay royalties or even send sales statements, and the ONLY compensation you could receive for a year and a half's work would be $76,000, would you then turn around and give it away?

Nope, didn't think so.

Is that what infuriates you so about Harris? That she didn't cash in, and is showing herself to be more pure than most of you?

Stephanie, you don't speak for "everyone." "No one believes you" is not yours to say. DU may not. But there are witnesses to exactly what's been going on, and I notice no one is asking anyone at Black Box Voting -- not one of the 10 people -- for their side of the story.

Doesn't anyone find that odd?

Not a single one of those ten people could possibly have anything of interest to say. Hmm. Strange. The only one who can be believed is the guy who was fired by unanimous decision for -- among other things -- lying to the board of directors.

Strange. They must all be pod people.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #119
121. That's rich
Is that what infuriates you so about Harris? That she didn't cash in, and is showing herself to be more pure than most of you?

Bev pure? God what an ego we have.

Stephanie, you don't speak for "everyone." "No one believes you" is not yours to say. DU may not. But there are witnesses to exactly what's been going on, and I notice no one is asking anyone at Black Box Voting -- not one of the 10 people -- for their side of the story.

We don't ask because we've heard the fairy tales before, from Bev's own mouth.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #121
126. Good. Show evidence that you gave away $76,000
Oh, that's right. You kept all the money from the book, it was Bev that gave away the book and its revenues.

And it is Bev, not you, who is giving away $76,000 to the cause.

Comic book publishers with fat paychecks = 1
Black Box Voting authors with fat paychecks = 0

I guess you win, David.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #119
172. Not the $76,000 from the qui tam, but the FUNDRAISING you did HERE AT DU
and over AAR - we know it's many thousands. How many thousands, Bev? And where is it?

This is hilarious:

Is that what infuriates you so about Harris? That she didn't cash in, and is showing herself to be more pure than most of you?

Is that the best you can do? You're more PURE than we are? ROFLMAO! If you're so pure why are you here at DU pretending to be someone else and praising yourself in the third person. You're beating a dead horse, Bev! Go peddle your tale somewhere else.
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #172
177. AAR - $23,600
That was published in December, along with an accounting.

Total on that accounting was about $300,000 raised, a modest budget for a permanent nonprofit once overhead is worked in. More has been raised since then, and the lion's share of funding has been through grants.

If you do the math, you'll see that one thousand five-dollar donations amounts to only $5,000. That won't sustain any permanent nonprofit with office space and bare bones personnel for even one month.

Typical nonprofit budgets range from half a million to a million per year, and that has to be raised through a combination of donations and grants.

Start adding it up: Lease, Web, webmaster, business or office manager, accountant, development director, and then the workhorses that actually do the work.

When Harris launched Black Box Voting, she knew that it would take a quarter-million just to put basic infrastructure in place, and triple that to form a permanent organization. She took a chance with just minimal funding for direct investigations, a temporary situation, with the plan that the bulk of the money to create a permanent organization would have to be raised from August through December, when interest in the issue would be highest.

After doing over 500 media interviews, spread among five people in the organization, and writing several grant proposals, and meeting personally with many donors, the funds were raised. It is simplistic, naive, and incorrect to think they were raised on Randi Rhodes with $1, $5, and $25 donations.

The organization is still only eight months old, and has been evolving into its more permanent structure. That Black Box Voting has become a viable nonprofit organization seems to drive some people crazy. Well, it's here. There is no money for padding payrolls or lining pockets, because it's being used for public records, investigations, travel to work with local citizens groups, accounting, modest salaries for a lean staff, a lease, and other normal expenditures.

Nothing more dramatic than that.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #172
203. Oh my gawd...
Thank you Stephanie! This person, referring to herself in the third person, sounds completely unhinged. Its as though she exists in the bushworld of spin and BS. Good lord, to think I ever found her credible embarrasses me. Thank GOD I never gave HER a dime.
Oh, and

Myrna Minx is purer then the whitest driven snow. She is the smartest, most beautiful woman in the world. Bow down before her, for she is your queen. :eyes:

Hey, it is fun to self promote in the third person! Catch the fever. ;-)
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #203
206. I have it on the highest authority
that ohio_liberal thinks Bev Harris is full of merda.
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #119
224. Can you not make a point without lying about someone?
Can you make one point, one, without calling David or Andy a liar? Can you make one point without blaming someone else besides Bev?

Can you?

(crickets)
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
93. you can't deny the work she's done
Regardless of what you say, and I realize most of it is true, you can't deny that she's done some very important investigative work.

Her book is very informative and has educated many people on the subject.

Even though she obviously has some kind of a personality disorder, it doesn't change the fact that she's one of the only people that's been able to get on TV to talk about election fraud. The video of her and Dean has been INVALUABLE to our cause.

Obviously she's paranoid. Some paranoia is expected considering what she's doing.

Personally, I tried not to pay attention when all you folks were getting all freaked out about her getting kicked off DU and threatening to sue people and whatever. When it all blew over I tried to absorb the condensed version and I think I got the gist of it.

I just want to see what her "stuff". I don't care about her personality.


She still could turn out to be the one to uncover the smoking gun. Then would everyone forgive her, for being a paranoid b-tch? I don't know and I don't care. I just hope that she does it. Or someone else does. I don't care who.

I'll agree with you on one thing. I wouldn't give her my money. But I will continue to keep watching what she's doing.

Gary
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #93
95. The problem is, you wil never get to see her "stuff"
That's the same trick we all fell for. There is no "stuff."
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #95
97. yeah there is
have you read her book?

that is some stuff, don't you think?

how about some of the articles she's written on the Scoop site?

that is stuff too.

keep it coming, Bev. And while you're at it, get some psychological help. Maybe you'll stop burning bridges with every person you meet.

I'd be willing to bet that she has some kind of emotional problems that started way before she got interested in election issues.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. She went to Fl in Nov. and said she found poll tapes in the dumpster
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 01:34 AM by Stephanie

Where are they? What did they reveal?

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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #98
100. Yes, I know
supposedly they reveal discrepancies. She is still working on this according to her site. it's not like she's done. If she's working on a potential lawsuit, you can bet the best thing is to not reveal what she has. That would be stupid.

If you want to get so down on her for taking too long, I hope you're getting down on Kerry and the Dems too. it took them until last week to file in the Ohio case that was started by the Greens. But some of it is just the fact that judges take a long time to decide things.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #100
259. garybeck, please read this thread
Ida Briggs explains the problem much better than I could.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #98
179. They are in Volusia County, in the custody of Susan Pynchon
The tapes contain minor discrepancies but not enough to flip a presidential race. Of greater concern, the tapes reveal that about one-third of the polling place results were submitted on duplicate memory cards. That is confirmed by a record from Diebold asking Volusia what the hell they were doing with all the memory cards.

The auditing work done by Susan Pynchon has been impressive, and because it is diffult to audit without the full set of records, Black Box Voting has allowed Pynchon to have them for the time being, since she's the plaintiff in a lawsuit.

There are significant discrepancies in the memory cards produced vs. those accounted for. What that means is that electronic ballot boxes can be switched or substituted.

Add to that the significant discrepancies in ballot chain of custody, and even a hand recount cannot prove much anymore in Volusia County. One employee, who recently resigned, had the key to the ballot vault and 24-hour access. Harris found homemade ballots in the trash at the warehouse.

These ballots can be proven to be homemade in two ways: the master for the ballots was also found in the trash, along with items that can provide master copies for dozens of different ballot styles, and actual ballots, but lacking the serial number imprinted by the printer, and not filled out.

Ballots are supposed to be numbered and accounted for, and not thrown away. When you combine homemade ballot-making in the warehouse with a single employee who gets unsupervised access to the ballot vault, with missing and unaccounted for memory cards and a central tabulation system that has now proven to be easily hacked, you have a real boondoggle.
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #95
135. Um, Stephanie?
The book. Who else here wrote a book?
The web site. Read it.
The documents. Who else here has gotten their hands on user manuals for Diebold, Sequoia, and ES&S, along with all the internal computer logs from the voting machines?
The software. Oh yeah, just 40,000 Diebold files and also releasing the Sequoia central tabulator software on the Web.
The Hagel story. The Urosevich story. The Ahmanson story (and backtracking; it was not the same Ahmanson).
The felons (not just Diebold, but Sequoia and ES&S)
The GEMS hack.
The WinEDS hack story.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but you are a writer, aren't you? It would be great if you would apply some of your own skills to helping with election reform. The system is plenty broken for all of us.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #135
170. umm, Bev?
SHOW ME THE MONEY! Where is the money, Bev? How much did you raise and what did you do with it?
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #170
183. You are obsessing with this, Stephanie.
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 10:04 AM by bailey77
A formal accounting is being prepared by a firm. An informal accounting was posted on the Web site. And you are not asking the same question of any other nonprofit in the voting reform movement. There are others with (reportedly) much more questionable dealings than BBV.

However, the information will be provided and audited, according to the year one timetable that all nonprofits follow.

Sorry that the concept of actually funding a nonprofit, which involves tedious PR, fund raising events, and grant writing, makes you so crazy. The amounts raised were exactly what is needed to do the records requests, ongoing investigations, and travel to work with citizens groups and legislators, in addition to obtaining a modest office space, modest furniture, stable web site, basic personnel and the same infrastructure (computer network, etc) that any viable nonprofit has to have.

Most people with a reasonable amount of business acumen can structure a budget and see that the needs of a permanent nonprofit are not trivial, and that a couple thousand $1, $5, and $25 donations (as was raised by Randi Rhodes) does not take you far.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #183
186. A couple thousand? That's what you raised from Randi?
Not even slightly credible. Where is the "informal" accounting - link please? And when will we see this formal accounting and which firm is preparing it?
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #170
187. It doesn't matter, Steph
I've got the scenario pegged. ANY problems with the books will be blamed on Andy. $1 gets you $100 that when the financials are published (if they are published) their will be BIG holes in the Nov-Dec time frame and it will be laid at Andy's feet.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #93
101. Not quite
Regardless of what you say, and I realize most of it is true, you can't deny that she's done some very important investigative work

Most of the work came from other folks. The analysis of the programming was NOT Bev's work. Bev didn't even know what she was looking at when she found the Diebold site and had to call and ask if what she found was important.

Bev was also TOTALLY opposed to my downloading the Diebold emails and threatened me with legal action when I "disobeyed" her and downloaded them. Had I listened to her paranoid drivel a CRITICAL cache of evidence (one that made her $75K in qui tam money) would have been lost.

Her book is very informative and has educated many people on the subject.

And it could have educated quite a few more people if she hadn't deliberately spiked a publishing deal with Champion (a division of Penguin) because she hated me so much and wanted to be sure I did not make a single penny on the book. Champion was ready to sign a deal, but Bev refused to have anything to do with any deal I was party to, even though it would not have cost her a cent. My name on the book and the fact that I would have been compensated for it was enough for her to refuse to sign on.

Please tell me how that helped our cause?

Even though she obviously has some kind of a personality disorder, it doesn't change the fact that she's one of the only people that's been able to get on TV to talk about election fraud. The video of her and Dean has been INVALUABLE to our cause.

Having tantrums and threatening Keith Olbermann does not help our cause. Making abusive phone calls to reporters does not help our cause. Attacking Avi Rubin, Rebecca Mercuri et al, does not help our cause. In the legislative committee I served on in my home state she is considered to be a complete loon. Her vile temper is much discussed.

I just want to see what her "stuff". I don't care about her personality.

I don't think she has any "stuff" to show. Randi Rhodes kept asking her why she wasn't in Ohio with her "evidence". She didnt even seem to know what was going on. Did you listen to her on the show? If not, I can send you the MP3.

She still could turn out to be the one to uncover the smoking gun.

I wouldn't put any money on that horse. <g>

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #101
138. More factual corrections
Most of the work came from other folks.

Nonsense. Harris has always done her own research.

The analysis of the programming was NOT Bev's work.

There is no single analysis of the programming. The book clearly shows the evolution of the analysis, which took place on DU between June 16-18 2003. The GEMS programming was analyzed and written up by a source who still has protected source status, but he is/was a DU member, it is a male, and he lives on the East Coast. The source code was identified by a former voting machine test engineer, Dan Spillane (Not David Allen, as he claimed in "The Nation" magazine).

The touchscreen source code for Diebold was first analyzed by Roxanne Jekot, then on DU, then by Avi Rubin, then by SAIC, then by the CompuWare Report, then by the RABA report.

The WinEDS software from Sequoia was analyzed by Jeremiah Akin.


Bev didn't even know what she was looking at when she found the Diebold site and had to call and ask if what she found was important.

Incorrect. And if you thought it was important and she called you, why is it that Harris downloaded the files, not you? How come the files that appeared in New Zealand were sent there by Harris, not you?

It was Harris who downloaded them, because after examining hundreds of the files, she saw that the folder "rob georgia" contained instructions to replace the voting system.

Bev was also TOTALLY opposed to my downloading the Diebold emails and threatened me with legal action when I "disobeyed" her and downloaded them. Had I listened to her paranoid drivel a CRITICAL cache of evidence (one that made her $75K in qui tam money) would have been lost.

Harris was concerned that it was a honey pot. Are you now saying it was you who downloaded them and distributed them to the Black Box Voting .org Web Site on Sept. 5, 2003? Is that why Agent Mike was asking so many questions about you?

Is that why you are so angry? Because you were the conduit for the Diebold memos to Harris, and because you were afraid to take the consequences, you could not get the credit you feel you deserve?

That would be a fascinating addition to the story. It sounds plausible.

she deliberately spiked a publishing deal with Champion (a division of Penguin)

That would be Chamberlain, not Champion, and the deal wasn't spiked. They decided there wasn't time to go forward with it.

Bev refused to have anything to do with any deal I was party to, even though it would not have cost her a cent.

Now that's a fantasy for you. Harris had no objection to David Allen being part of the deal, for his Internet rights and perhaps for the 16 pages he contributed (out of 286). What killed the deal was the timing. The deal didn't start into discussions until late Spring 2004, and the book catalogs were already past due for fall. Chamberlain thought the selling season was too short. Harris tried to convince the Chamberlain agent that there would still be interest in election reform after the election, but he didn't think so.

In the legislative committee I served on in my home state she is considered to be a complete loon. Her vile temper is much discussed.

Well, since Harris has never met or had any dealings at all with a single person on your legislative committee, one has to assume that your own rendition of her personality is what they are using to assess her. In that case, it would be you that is damaging the movement.

Again, David, the idea that only certain people (i.e., you,) should be working on the voting issue has got to stop. Just buckle down and get to work. I notice that North Carolina still has touch screens and had some very problematic elections. There is plenty of work for everyone. It isn't up to you to be the hall monitor for the entire movement.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #138
196. Again, the record contradicts you
But you seem to subscribe to the Bush doctrine on Iraq.

Again, David, the idea that only certain people (i.e., you,) should be working on the voting issue has got to stop.

Please post where I said only I should work on this?

Just buckle down and get to work. I notice that North Carolina still has touch screens and had some very problematic elections. There is plenty of work for everyone.

And California still has them despite your $76K windfall. Again, if you want to know what I am doing in my own state (and you don't) the links are here.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #196
247. funny but i remember randi rhodes saying she had raised
approx 450,000 by the friday of the week she bagan campaigning for the recount and investigation of the election...
does anyone lese remember that amount?? and that was the first week!!

fly
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #93
128. You can't infer a personality disorder from Internet posts
Nor can you infer paranoia.

Much of the information you've been seeing here is from two or three people, and as far as I know, only one person in this thread has ever even met Bev Harris.

David Allen spoke to her on the phone. But then again, David Allen failed to send sales reports on the book for over a year, failed to pay royalties, and deposited at least $6,000 in book revenues that did not belong to him.

You might be surprised to find that Bev Harris is a perfectly normal person, somewhat of a workaholic, and not paranoid in the least.

The comments about dark forces and CIA are reported by a publisher who owes a large sum of money, and an employee who was terminated for cause.

Don't know what state you're in, Gary, but it would be great for you to meet Bev and size up the supposed personality disorders and paranoia for yourself. I think you'll be surprised at how down to earth she is.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #128
202. We have met many times Bev.
You told me that your cell phone cuts off as soon as you mention something pertinent. That's paranoid. Everybody's cell phone cuts off.

You are nice when you want to be nice and completely rude and dismissive when there are more important people in the room.

You have burned every bridge. You have attacked people I respect. What you did and continue to do to Andy is the last straw. Calling yourself "nice" does not repair the damage you've done.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
96. I dissed many Bev dissers.
I have apologized before and will do so again. ;(

I just wish I was right....
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #96
99. Me too. I used to argue the other side.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #99
102. At least we are able to admit we were wrong.
...... as much as it may hurt.


Personally, I saw Bev as the WALL protecting us from B2. I was deeply hurt to find that she was but a scarf - loosely knit at that.
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #102
122. You didn't 'find' Bev to be anything
You believed a lot of infighting by people who got dropped off the coattails when they failed to perform.

You can choose to believe whatever you want, but don't imagine that you "know" -- especially after reading nonstop one sided posts.

For three months, every individual who even tried to provide the other side of the story was tombstoned. That's a little unusual, and certainly not in keeping with normal forum procedures, much less accurate journalism, which seeks responses from both sides.

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #122
123. So when will Bev
be filing her suit against DU? Why are you wasting your time here stirring up trouble for yourself? If you don't need DU, then there is NO point in being here. The longer you post here, the more truth about Bev will get posted. If you go away no one will have any reason to explain Bev's vile behaviour.

But you need DU. Money is drying up. Word is Bev is panhandling at other sites and coming up empty.

Yes, the truth is getting around and it is very harmful to shaking money lose from us. The freepers NEVER trusted Bev so that well came up dry.

Yes, your continued presence here speaks of considerable desperation indeed.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #123
130. more trash, substantiate it
"word is that Bev is panhandling at other sites and coming up empty"

Name one.

Like most of the assertions you make, this is nonsense. If money was "drying up" why would Harris and BBV be helping other sites fund raise instead of fund raising for themselves?

No one here is being asked for any money. Where do you get this stuff?

Harris and Black Box Voting has never sought donations at Free Republic. If you contend they did, show evidence.

BBV and Harris have not solicited funds at any other site. If you say they have, show evidence.

David, you seem far more obsessed with the Black Box Voting budget than the ten people who actually are employees and board members for that organization.

You are obsessing about fat paychecks that don't exist, and "panhandling" that isn't happening, and you can't imagine that the qui tam bounty, if it ever appears, will actually be donated with restrictions so that it can ONLY be used for additional litigation.

You continually misrepresent things. For example, you stated on this board that all of California is "ruined" for qui tam due to the suit in Alameda. Why are you even concerned about that? More to the point, what evidence is there on earth that a qui tam in Alameda County has any effect at all on a suit in San Diego?

You are so obsessed with money that one must wonder what really motivates you. The facts are that Harris has given away her book, first on the Internet, then to the nonprofit. Harris has already committed to give away any proceeds for a Qui Tam. Her salary, $60,000, is not a "fat salary" given her high profile and expertise.

This just seems like obsessive, almost delusional jealousy, completely out of control. Instead, why not channel the same amount of energy into actually doing something worthwhile?
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #130
139. given her high profile and expertise
which expertise would that be? Rolling clinton cigars?
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #139
185. Anyone can spin. Read the book, the web site, the updates
Better yet, actually meet her, attend a workshop on how to audit your own election.

Reading DU won't tell you anything. Go to http://www.blackboxvoting.org and check out the forums, the document archive, the book (posted for free on the front page) and then make an assessment of expertise.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #185
189. Yet another plug for Bev's site
Which version of the book Bev? The original or the one where you you start altering the facts to support your "new improved" history?

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #185
204. look, here's something you might consider
people's perceptions build over time. The actions of the person being perceived lead to the perception. That doesn't mean a person's perception can't be rehabilitated, but the rehabilitation only occurs through the person's actions. Why not just let her actions speak for themselves. You are pissing up a rope here.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #122
129. You know, it's really creepy to refer to yourself in the third person
I'm just sayin'.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #129
228. Not only that
but to think so HIGHLY of yourself in the third person. This person seems to think she's almost saintly. The only thing that ruins the picture is she follows it up with vicious attacks on everyone else. Makes her look sort of ...unsaintly, if that's a word.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #228
229. And to be so intimately familiar with every turn and twist
of this complex and confusing tale. Just as if you were actually right there throughout it all.



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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
150. Baily
you seem to know SO MUCH MORE than any person could without actually BEING that person, and I pretty much recognize writing styles..

tell the truth, are YOU Bev Harris?

I've never heard more delusional drivel in all the years I've been on the DU - it's amazing how wrong you are and the tactics you use to dismiss facts, facts that have been presented over and over..

there's a reason that all those people and Harris got tombstoned.

They were LYING.

It's just that simple.

For instance how would YOU know better than David Allen about what was spent or said in private?

I really laugh when simple minded minions defend to the death unethical people while using logic developed by PEE WEE HERMAN as a JOKE.

60K a year for salary? Think we're stupid? Legally at the end of the year they can all give each other paychecks as large as the bank account is WIDE.

Like Jon Stewart loves to say on the Daily SHow.. "Do they think we're RETARDED?"

Stop insulting people's intelligence with nonsense - Bev's defenders actually sound like CULT people and that's the scariest part of it all..
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bailey77 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #150
188. $60k is the salary, like it or lump it.
And auditors and the IRS tend to frown on unearned compensation, or fat hidden compensation.

Plus, in Black Box Voting, the board of directors has to authorize hiring, salaries, and payroll.

It is really absurd to keep stating that 10 people -- the employees and the board of BBV -- are all dishonest, engaging in some sort of plot.

Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #188
190. There not neccesarily dishonest,
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #190
237. just like me
when I donated. Give my money to Andy NOW.
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #150
232. Give Each Other Fat Paychecks?
As a member of the Board of Directors, you have now accused all of us of mishandling funds.

As a person who gets ZERO compensation for the considerable time and effort I've put into the organization, I'd like to know where you come up with this idea?

Where is your proof? Records? Data?

None of the BOD gets a dime of the money donated to BBV, not one dime.

And as someone who has shelved out of their own pocket so more money can go to investigation and research, I am deeply offended by this:

"60K a year for salary? Think we're stupid? Legally at the end of the year they can all give each other paychecks as large as the bank account is WIDE."

Please explain to me how someone on the BOD can get any kind of compensation, especially when it's written into the organization bylaws that we get none?

As someone who has put countless hours into accountable voting, worked for the last three years to get legislation for that in one of the hardest states to get that accomplished, on my own dime, never taking or asking for a penny from BBV or anyone else, I am deeply offended.

It was due to Bev Harris and the Black Box Voting research that a small group of people were able to stop disastrous legislation three years ago in this state. Without that, we'd be voting by Internet by now.

Black Box is working on several levels, both devastating to those who would wish to control elections:

Revealing the true nature of voting systems in the U.S.

Helping activate local groups, what to get via FOIA, and how to use them.

Black Box Voting is about making elections accountable to every person in the country. Black Box Voting is about making changes to the voting system so that every election produces the will of the voter.

On road, doing the work, getting the results.

And no one at Black Box is misusing funds let alone making gain on this.

Linda Franz
Presiden, BOD, Black Box Voting


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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #232
233. Red Eagle...
Maybe you can address why Andy Stephenson didn't receive a W-2, postmarked Jan 31 as required by law?
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #233
249. Yes, I can
Because after repeated requests, certified mail, sent him the forms, gave him a site to download the forms- Andy still hasn't given BBV his W-4 form. And those kinds of record keeping were part of his duties.



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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #249
251. Bev and I both sent those forms to you
From Huntsville Alabama. Bev herself dropped them into the post office box.
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #249
253. So if you never had a W-4 form
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 07:50 AM by ohio_liberal
You never paid him? Never withheld taxes from a paycheck? This is absolute bullshit. If you gave him a paycheck that had taxes withheld then you had something to base it on. Give him his fucking W-2 or you face serious consequences. You apparently don't know shit about tax law.

Andy, this is for you:

Research Institute Tax Handbook 2004

Non-Receipt:

If an employee doesn't receive a form W-2, he should ask the employer for it. If the employer doesn't provide it, the taxpayer should telephone the IRS at the number on the instructions for 1040 (18008291040). After February 14, 2005, the IRS will help you obtain the missing forms. Be prepared to provide your name, address (including zip code), phone number, Social Security Number, and dates of employment and the name, address (including zip code), and phone number of the employer/payer. An IRS representative can initiate a Form W-2 complaint. Form 4598, Form W-2 or 1099 Not Received or Incorrect, will be sent to the employer and a copy will be sent to you along with Form 4852 (PDF), Substitute for a Missing Form W-2, Wage and Tax Statement, or Form 1099-R, Distributions from Pensions, Annuities, Retirement or Profit-Sharing Plans, IRAs, Insurance Contracts, etc. The copy that the employer receives will advise him or her of the employer's responsibilities to provide a correct Form W-2 and of the penalties for failure to do so.

Andy, the IRS will file a complaint for you. I know you have a lot on your plate right now but I would not put up with this malicious bullshit any more.

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #253
254. Yeah, my thought as well
If you paid him, you know how much you deducted and thus can fill out a W-2.

Petty vindictiveness is very ugly.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #249
255. And while you are here
trying to clean up after yet ANOTHER one of Bev's temper tantrums, please address Boredtodeath's post:

Perhaps, Ms. Franz, your time would be better spent as a board member getting, and keeping, your employee under control. Bev's behavior has, and continues to be, anything BUT professional.

Discussion of private personnel matters on a public web site are in very bad form, not to mention taste.

Vague, unverified claims of new findings which are never followed up, never confirmed, dropped as if the allegations were never made.

Name calling, hyperbole, spin, publicity stunts and overall bad public behavior is something an effective board of directors should be able to handle internally.

Assuming, of course, that the board has any authority........and isn't just a group of figurehead family members and friends......


Any real BoD woul have fired Bev a long time ago for exposing the organization to legal action by repeatedly libeling and slandering people in public forums.

One of these days, Bev is going to smear someone with the financial resources to drag your organization to court and empty its coffers.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #255
256. Thanks for trying, David
We should all note this board member ran like hell when the questions got too tough.

Obviously, the board of directors have no real authority. They're just there to follow the orders of Bev after she gets her ass in a sling, yet again.

Can't you just imagine the phone call Ms. Franz got?

BEV: Linda, why the hell aren't you on DU helping me?

LINDA: Well, Bev, you weren't supposed to BE on DU.

BEV: So what? Get over there and tell "our" truth because I'm getting my ass handed to me.

LINDA: <Sigh.>Yes, boss.

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #256
257. Time and time again
Bev demonstrates a complete lack of insight in how this medium works, which reflects her lack of technical competence beyond a superficial layer (she has learned the buzzwords and can appear knowledgeable to the clueless).

When she had technically competent people with her, she provided actual evidence for her claims because we wouldn't have permitted her to go "live" without it. If you look at her early "work", you see documents, interviews, links, etc. These days you see her reporting with very little sourcing.

I looked back through these posts and I cannot find a SINGLE link, not one from Bev. No documents, posts, emails, NOTHING.

In this medium your credibility lives and dies on your sourcing.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #257
261. You noticed that too, huh?
Especially this latest "discovery."

There's not a single source, not a single confirmable name or reference, just a "I said so" unverifiable PR statement alleging explosive findings.

There's not one verifiable FACT in this latest stunt.

Not that there were many in the earlier ones, but her early researchers demanded the work be sourced credibly.

Not anymore.

Could that be because all the researchers have moved on to real science and not publicity stunts a la Bev?

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #232
235. Perhaps,
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 04:16 PM by Kelvin Mace
But Bev certainly LIED about how much money she raised thanks to Randi Rhodes.

And this time, we have the proof.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Everyone who has dealt with Bev got burned in the end. I would advise you not to join the parade of victims.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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NC Beach Girl Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #232
241. Activate the weasels!
On road, doing the work, getting the results.


You're kidding, right?

The only "results" are in the BBV coffers and Bev wasn't even honest about how much that was.

I haven't seen any results other than that, despite the tried and true BBV method of reposting the same tired story 200 different ways, spiced up with lots of vague nonsense. Oh...and lots of animal references, can't forget about those. Activate the chimpanzees! or eagles....or something.

Maybe a weasel would be a better mascot?
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #232
242. Perhaps, Ms. Franz, your time would be better spent
as a board member getting, and keeping, your employee under control. Bev's behavior has, and continues to be, anything BUT professional.

Discussion of private personnel matters on a public web site are in very bad form, not to mention taste.

Vague, unverified claims of new findings which are never followed up, never confirmed, dropped as if the allegations were never made.

Name calling, hyperbole, spin, publicity stunts and overall bad public behavior is something an effective board of directors should be able to handle internally.

Assuming, of course, that the board has any authority........and isn't just a group of figurehead family members and friends......

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #232
263. Still waiting to hear
why you don't control Bev/


<crickets>

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
154. factuaL errors
this thread is quite funny.
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #154
171. And I get threads locked for discussing Fat Actress?
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 09:20 AM by trumad
David, folks in the know have got your back. Bev... I used to be a big supporter... BUT when every single DUer who has ever been associated with you whats nothing to do with you.... well....
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #171
180. Thank you, Trumad
At this point, locking this thread would be classed a "mercy killing". I keep expecting the ref to through in the towel for Bev.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #180
191. hey, to be fair...
you don't know for sure, that it's bev. :D
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #191
194. No, but my view
is that while Bev may not be doing the typing, she is dictating the posts. This would be typical of the kind way her mind works.

I have started calling her Bev to cut out the middle man.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #171
192. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #192
195. think of all the great work you could of done instead of posting here
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 10:31 AM by thebigidea
why, you could've done soooo much good and instead you indulge in a "nasty little thread."

so what's your excuse?

no worldsaving items on the ol' agenda this morning?

Good lord, all this trouble to defend a paranoid hasbeen.

Or is paranoid schizophrenic hasbeen more accurate?

And with very little due respect, Bev shouldn't be crowing about great press coverage and so forth - or is almost getting on Countdown and being derided as a complete basketcase some sort of coup?
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #195
198. Defense of the truth is never
a dishonorable pursuit.

Hey, I can multi-task can't I? <g>

Ooops, i'd better clarify for the record that I am not characterizing any small contribution of mine as "world saving".

If Bev would just go back to her little fiefdom and stop spreading her propaganda over here, we could all get back to work.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #198
199. I'm talking to that amusingly familiar-sounding poster, not you
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 10:42 AM by thebigidea
I can almost picture her, Miss Havesham-style, disheveled, babbling about herself in the third person. CIA agents around every corner! Betrayal! Backstabbing! Hackers! Secret Service! Oh my!

Her idiocies need to be mentioned, as you've been doing - to dissuade any one not familiar with the backstory from buying her tired con. Betcha you've cost her thousands of dollars in contributions, and boy does she know it.

What she probably doesn't know is that her own actions have cost her countless thousands more.

Oh yeah, and that thing called "a reputation."
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #199
207. Oh, sorry
the thread is getting tangled.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
210. meet the new BBV
same as the old BBV.

Just different cult leaders to tithe to, now that Bev has been outmaneuvered on DU.
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
216. Remember how nasty she was to DUers who only wanted to help?
The term "BBV Cleanup Crew" usage caused her to go into an irrational tirade. All most DUers wanted to do was sign up for tasks and help the cause.

Bev sure turned a lot of folks off with the talk of lawsuits, didn't she?
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TryingToWarnYou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
220. Thanks for posting this
I wasnt aware of the issue with Bev and Ive supported her efforts (although not monetarily, thankfully) and am seriously in a state of shock over all this. The whole affair with Vetwife comes to mind as this all seems similar. Has anyone thought about contacting the Interstate Commerce Commission for possible Federal Criminal charges to be brought against her? Surely she broke laws doing what she did to obtain all this money? What a sick woman.
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #220
225. The thing with VetWife was pathetic
VetWife was tireless and honorable. I'd follow her any day. I wouldn't walk across the road to meet Bev.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
230. bailey77 is no longer with us, friends
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 01:38 PM by Stephanie

She has met a timely demise at the hands of the mods. Thanks mods! :hi:




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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #230
252. Ahh...a mercy killing
My "drivel-meter" was pegged.

Thank you mods.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
231. Before this is locked; for archival purposes, this is what appeared...
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 02:21 PM by understandinglife
....on the www.blackboxvoting.org website sometime in the past ~ 24h.

It should be able to be verified, independently:

TUESDAY MAR. 8, 2005: Investigation Update (Submitted to members of the House Judiciary Committee on Mar. 4 and Mar. 8.)

In mid-February, Black Box Voting, together with computer experts and videographers, under the supervision of appropriate officials, proved that a real Diebold system can be hacked.

This was not theoretical or a "potential" vulnerability. Votes were hacked on a real system in a real location using the actual setup used on Election Day, Nov. 2, 2004.

In October, Black Box Voting published an article on this Web site about remote access into the Diebold system. After examining the Diebold software and related internal e-mails, local security professionals were able to demonstrate a hack into a simulated system.

In February, we were allowed to try various hacking techniques into a real election system. To our surprise, the method used in our October simulation did not work.

However, another method did work. The hack that did work was unsophisticated enough that many high school students would be able to achieve it. This hack altered the election by 100,000 votes, leaving no trace at all in the central tabulator program. It did not appear in any audit log. The hack could have been executed in the November 2004 election by just one person.

This hack stunned the officials who were observing the test. It calls into question the results of as many as 40 million votes in 30 states. We are awaiting the response of the House Judiciary Committee to this new development for their investigation.

In another real-world example, Black Box Voting obtained the actual files used in the Nov. 2 election in a specific county. In this situation, the local officials did not know how to run their Diebold system, so a Diebold tech ran the election in that county. Election officials remembered the Diebold tech's first name, but not his last name.

The Diebold tech had gone home after the election, and no one in the county was able to access their own voting system, leading to some consternation because they could not provide our public records request.

Because local officials could not access their logs, we were given permission to sit down and copy files. (We have since found that this is not an isolated problem -- many local officials are painfully unfamiliar with their own voting systems.)

Local officials did not know their password, so Bev Harris asked if they would like her to hack the password. They said "yes" (!)

Later, to our even greater surprise, Bev Harris found that the password set by the Diebold tech on this real election file, used in the Nov. 2004 election was ... drum roll please ... the diabolically clever password: "diebold." (This took only two tries to guess.)

The significance of these two reports is this: By hacking into the central tabulator so easily, we showed that Diebold has not told the truth about the security of its system. Indeed, the software being used in BOTH examples is still extremely vulnerable, with little or no effort made to correct its security flaws.

We have offered to meet with public officials at several different levels to provide more documentation on these problems.


Peace.

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #231
264. Why?
We have offered to meet with public officials at several different levels to provide more documentation on these problems.

Just post the damn evidence! Or is she afraid to subject her evidence to professional scrutiny?

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
234. And now the final chapter
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
240. kick
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
250. Kick for the newbies.
NT!

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
262. "I'm melting...melting...oh, what a world, what a world!".
Truth and exposure will do that sometimes.

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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
265. David Allen has been working on issue in NC
The fact is that David Allen has been working on the paperless e-voting problem in North Carolina.

Folks may not know it, but paperless e-voting has been in North Carolina since 1986!

It rapidly spread to 40 counties, with the help of The Election Center, a group I have asked DU'ers to help me further expose.

It is really hard to undo a thoroughly entrenched problem.

David has answered requests by the media for an informed opinion on paperless voting, which he has always cooperated with.

He has written opinion pieces that helped to persuade even conservative papers such as the High Point Enterprise to join in to the call for paper backup.

David also has kindly participated in numerous BBV Forums around our state, along with Justin Moore and Chuck Herrin.

Finally, David served as a member on the NC Legislature appointed Joint Select Committee on Electronic Voting, helping to draft the bills that require a VVPB for every vote, audits, and source code to be examined by 3 political parties in majority, as well as by NCBOE.

The bill numbers are: s 223 and h 238, and both are in committee right now.

David was able to work with the other members of the committee to make sure that key issues such as the source code, and audits were paid attention to and understood.

The committee and also the BBV forums have taken alot of time, and this was no small contribution.

David participated at a BBV forum in Pittsboro last night, and will be in another in Greensboro on March 28.

We in North Carolina appreciate having David's help, as we also appreciate Justin Moore's and Chuck Herrin's.

David has certainly been working hard on the issue, giving up alot of his own time at his own expense.

I just wanted to get that out there. I don't provide several links to this, just one - http://www.ncvoter.net /
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #265
266. You are too kind
Joyce McCloy has been the driving force behind anti-BBV efforts in NC.

She drafted me last Summer and kept me focused locally.

But please, don't take my word for it. Visit the NC State Board of Elections. If you inquire after my health you will be met with sudden facial tics and dark muttering.

Mention Joyce's name and they start foaming at the mouth, shrieking profanities and must be physically restrained and sedated.

Kind of like Bev when you mention my name.

Thanks Joyce!

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
272. Crap like this only ensures
that I'm becoming more and more cynical with age. Shame on you Bev.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #272
273. This is exaclty the kind of damage that she has done
that is inexcusable. She also cost us Randi Rhodes help on ANY future project.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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smartvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
277. I hadn't forgotten and think it was wise of you to post this for newbs.
No one else should be duped into sending money her way. I still remember her homepage smear of Andy Stephenson, which quickly disappeared when she got in trouble. And Bush personally ordering her book as she fell out of favor with progressives was a real gem.

Those on the fence here, or new to it all and confused by the controversy, should ask themelves why the people who know her best, along with all the devoted reformists who funded her activities, have written her off BEFORE they donate to her organization.
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