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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 04:32 PM
Original message
Canadian Elections Act
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 04:34 PM by RaulVB
Clear, simple, PAPER ALL THE WAY, precise, democratic.

Why is impossible "for some" to even ask for a similar normative here, in the US?

What is so "dramatic" about it?

http://www.parl.gc.ca/common/bills_ls.asp?Parl=36&Ses=2...
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merwin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. *pfft* those canadians are so 19th century!
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buzzard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Hey I'm one of those 19th century Canadians. Parliament has allowed
some evoting pilot projects to go ahead I believe the machines were ES&S.
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Tell your countrymen/women not to screw it up!
Please, you guys are a model, don't mess around with your system.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. ES&S software
worked on by Canadian ex-felons. Are the Mounties asleep in the saddle up there? there are other crossover connections to suggest Canada is a base and a target for touchscreen voting and has slept on the danger along with the rest of the world.

If we cannot get the American press to act, how about other nations directly threatened on a national security issue of private US company intrusion and worse? The monstrous deflection of critics away from direct action on this issue has to be harder to sustain when another nation's very sovereignty is affected(and perhaps has been unremarked by most DUers. I am thinking of the Netherlands for one, Venezuela of course).
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. How about
our own national security.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
26. What national security?
No one seems really to care enough or Bush would be on the golf links by now- or at the Hague.
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Mistwell Donating Member (553 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'd also look into the Australian system
Australia has a well-known and solid elections system. Their system is so good that it's been used to run the elections of other countries (even 3rd world countries getting Democracy for the first time).
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. Yes
paper ballots, hand counted, should be our goal,Anything less we may as well not vote.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Great...how do you propose to count King County Wa?
A county with the most complex election process in the country. We have up to 1000 splits in this county. How we gonna count em? Give me the scenario wherein we can count the entire county in less than 6 months.

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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Is that not a job for multiple ballots?? n/t
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rerdavies Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Maybe you should get rid of some of the splits. n/t
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Can't do it.
We have sewer districts, water districts, schoolboard districts, Legislative districts etc etc etc etc. It is impossible to do away with those important elections. Vote on different days...nope that wont work only. Why would we want to risk loosing an election because of a lack of voter turnout in a June or a July election.

The splits are there wether we like it or not.

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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Andy, will multiple ballots work in those cases?? n/t
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. Ummm...IMHO multiple ballots are points of attack.
a big red flag for fraud. Personally I am comfortable with optically scanned ballots...as long as stringent controls are in place.

Optical scan ballots are the best of both worlds...Hand countable if needed...standardized ballots...able to be counted quickly and accurately. Look to the Washington State Governors race. The margin of error between the machine count and the hand count was very low.

Also, keep in Mind it took us a month to recount just one race.
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. With all due respect,
You have made up your mind, fine, indeed is your privilege.

I was raised in a country (Chile) where I ACTUALLY USED PAPER BALLOTS AND NO MACHINES WERE INVOLVED IN THE PROCESS. We had 8 miilions of votes average counted in 3.5 hours. No recounts, no fraud, the ACTUAL WINNER WAS ELECTED EVERY TIME.

Your concern about the splits is secondary, IMO.

If Americans are presented with the TRUTH they sure will understand that there are different priorities and some elections are MORE RELEVANT THAN OTHERS.

Presidential elections, for Governor, Senate races, Congress races, State legislature, Mayor of your city can be, should be represented as in a class of their own, and AN ALL PAPER HAND-COUNTED VOTING COULD TAKE PLACE FAIRLY EASILY.

You have, in this country, the advantage of very flexible rules that also, unfortunately, have made the fraud achievable ALMOST WITHOUT EFFORT.

For local matters that affect your daily life, there IS NO OBSTACLE to petition or make referendums or to include ballots with particular issues that affect the community. The votes on those instances could be counted by machine-based voting systems, NO PROBLEM.

As other have already said, WAKE UP.

Your "compromise" will be bulldozed by Republicans sooner or later.

Just my opinion.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. If you think
it can be done in 6 months ,you can double the people counting brings it down to 3 months,and if time is that big of a problem ,bring in 3 shifts count around the clock. There are great mathmeticians at the DU that could tell you how many people you would need to get the counting done in the time frame you want.
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. So you think it could be done or not? (n/t)
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elare Donating Member (243 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. 1000 splits ...
... but how many races are you voting on?

I'm Canadian, so I don't quite understand the "splits" in a county. I do get your point about counting when there's multiple races though. It's easy to point at Canada and say "Do it their way", but you have to remember that when we're voting Federally or Provincially (which are separate elections, held on different days), we are marking one "X" on one ballot, unless we're also voting a referendum question ... in which case we'd be marking one "X" on each of 2 ballots (the ballots are separated and counted separately ... I may be wrong on this, it's been awhile since I've had to vote on a referendum question).

In my city, during the municipal elections (which do involve multiple races) optical scan is used. I believe that smaller cities and towns use paper ballots for that as well though.

The other really big difference is that we simply do not have as many elected positions here (for example, we don't elect judges), so for the municipal races, it's still very workable to use paper ballots and handcount each one. I know another Canadian has posted on another thread that he has had as many as 8 ballots to fill out in a municipal election ... I can't ever remember having more than 5 or 6 (prior to the implementation of the optical scan system)
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harmonyguy Donating Member (589 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I'm that other Canadian....
Hi Elare - I'm that guy with the 'hockey sock full' of ballots.

Splits are a bit of an oddity to us Canucks, since we don't have them. In Canadian terms it would be like having our Civic, Provincial and Federal elections all on the same day. The boundaries of Federal ridings simply don't match the boundaries of the Provincial Constituencies, and the boundaries of neither match the ward boundaries in the City. You end up with situations where people on opposite sides of the street may be in the same Civic ward but in different Constituencies, or in different ridings. Take all those permutations and combinations and you have splits. Now just to really screw things up, try printing all the races on ONE piece of ballot paper. Is it any wonder that optical ballot scanners have to allow for eighteen inch long ballots that are eleven inches wide?

We have the same problem with different boundaries, BUT since separate elections are held for each level of government, the process is greatly simplified - and it helps that we usually don't elect our dog catchers. Changing the US electoral system(s) to allow for separate elections apparently requires a national constitutional change plus also requires changes to the constitutions of each state. AS I've had to learn - it ain't gonna happen any time soon.

In the meantime, while they're stuck with a cumbersome system, it's important to try to eliminate the fraud that occurs within the cumbersome-ness. A cumbersome system CAN be workable, if there is REAL confidence in it.

Hope this helps.
(Andy - please chime in if I missed anything or screwed anything up, eh?)
HG ;-)
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elare Donating Member (243 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Now I get it
Thanks HG! :)

Now I understand what a nightmare it would be to try and do that on paper ballots.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Perfect explanation
You did great.

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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. In Canada,
is voting mandatory like it is in Australia?
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. No, it's not
and we fret about voter turnout just like you do.

Especially since voting here takes less than a minute, and I've never seen anyone having to line-up in my life.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. How did they do
it before all the technology ?
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. We do it in Chile and in most of South America
The vote count MATCHES THE EXIT POLLS, amazingly enough.

Regards.
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Beth in VT Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. Excellent question!! Are things that much more complicated now? n/t
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