Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Voter reform wish list - What do you want changed?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU
 
iconoclastNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:26 PM
Original message
Voter reform wish list - What do you want changed?
Paper ballots - NO voting into Black Boxes
Hand count of 100% votes - No hackable electronic ballot counting, it works for Canada
Early Voting - No lines on election day
Election Day is Holiday
Vote at any precinct - No discriminatory distribution of voting machines
Vote by mail
Election day Voter Registration - No discriminatory voter registration disenfranchisement
Nationally linked poll-book registration system to prevent double voting - I wouldn't put it past the cons to vote in multiple states
Instant Run off Voting - No more Nader factor
End of NH and IOWA early primaries - Gives two small states and the media too much power to veto candidates

Those are some of my ideas, but also, what laws need to be changed to make it easier to investigate fraud....IMHO a lot of the reason that this fraud issue was not to put to bed (besides that it as true) was that Kenneth Blackwell was able to squash so many of the investigations.

What laws should be changed to make it so that the whole system is fair and transparent and can be investigated?

I think that we need to fight to get as much as we can because you know it'll get watered down in a bipartisan compromise.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Mandatory poll working
Everyone should be forced to work the polls on a rotating basis. No excuses, no exceptions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. No excuses? No exceptions?
I can see all the Alzheimer's patients from the nursing home running the polls. The GOP would love it.

Poll workers should be drawn from both parties.

Paper ballots, counted by human beings. The media can bloody well wait overnight for results. It won't kill them.

Instant runoff elections for the top two vote getters in any race if there isn't at least a 10% difference between them.

2 week early voting for the general election, one week early voting for any runoff. That means seven day weeks.

Mandatory voting, like that in Australia, would be a good idea.

Life in prison for anyone stuffing a ballot box, discarding voter registration forms, or otherwise trying to influence any part of the process in any way. That includes state party officials who try to scrub registration illegally.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. With all the additional work everyone is asking for....mandatory poll work
You want hand count? mandatory poll work

Longer hours or more days? mandatory poll work

I am tired of people thinking they can increase the workload of a job they refuse to do. I have worked the polls for damn near 2 decades and it is hard enough. mandatory poll work!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Think about it.
Do you really want to work with a disgruntled jerk who doesn't want to be there? I'd rather see a recruitment effort that excites people about working the polls.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Then HIRE MORE PEOPLE and PAY THEM
Slave labor for democracy is still slave labor.

Surely continuing our democratic experiment is worthy of funding.

Thank you for your work. However, dragging unwilling people in to do things they don't want to do won't work. It just guarantees a shitty job.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I say, if you want to bitch about the system, get off your ass
and out from behind the computer and work the elections.

It's real cute wearing little blue paper clips and black wristlettes, but how many have the strength of their convictions to be at the polls at 5:30AM and stay all day? Empty cans make the most noise and I hear a lot off tin rattling.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
41. This could be like jury duty. Just put everyone in a pool.
Those that have already served could be withdrawn from the pool for a set amount of time, so that others could do it the next time. The jury duty system kinda sucks if you have a name that starts with ABCDEFGH. You keep getting called up if you weren't selected. We need to NOT make the alphabetical placing of your last name an issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. I don't know about that.
There are some people I wonder how they tie their shoes in the morning. Sorry, but I'd rather have a well-trained bi-partisan staff rather than draftees who couldn't give a flip if the election runs smoothly or not. Forced to work? Yep, there's a recipe for bad morale and poor performance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marc_the_dem Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. great list
here's one... A system that could handle 100% of the eligible voter population without delays over 15 minutes per voter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Mandatory poll working



Everyone should be forced to work the polls on a rotating basis. No excuses, no exceptions.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. thanks for this discussion
right to the point IMO.
here's a thread from yesterday that also has discussion on what needs to be emphasized, best strategy to approach advocates, finer points of what really is meant by "paper trail" --etc.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. NO provisional ballots.
These things are a joke.

There is no reason why people can't register or re-register on the same day, if there is ANY question about their registration, with proper identification.

NO mail-in ballots with the exception of absentees. And there has to be tighter control of absentee balloting. Why were people able to vote BOTH absentee AND at the polls?

We need COMPLETE transparency. No withholding of ANY election records. Pollbooks, registration lists, and tally sheets as well as ballots must all be public information.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Absolutely, all private voting info should be public!
I want access to everyones political affiliation, home address, name and HELL YES social security number! Sounds like a great idea.
sarcasm off

The idea of ID I like but I have heard that is just a poll tax because even State ID's cost money and this is a burden on the poor.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
11. Secretary of State CANNOT be involved in Political Campaign
No more Katherine Harris or Kenneth Blackwell.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iconoclastNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I agree but it needs to go farther than that
Ken Blackwell would not have acted differently had he not been the official head of Bush's campaign. Frankly I can't see why the GOP allows this to happen. Seems like a bad PR move. Well only for a Democrat, whom do not own the MSM.

So I say make the position a committeee, 2 republicans, 2 democrats and it requires 3 votes to pass a directive. Or something like this but better.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. 2 dems, 2 republicans, 2 independents
on the committee, or two of any third party.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Riding this Donkey Donating Member (658 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
15. Numbered Paper Ballots
To curb any ballot box stuffing. Police use numbered citations to monitor tickets.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Pens, not pencils
Ballots are to go in a box in the middle of the room. When said box is full, another is placed on top of it. Ballots are emptied onto a table and counted in that very same room with observers. Then the totals are posted before notifying the county.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. No calling the election until all votes are counted in every
precinct, in every state.

Election night parties okay, no victory parties on that night until ALL VOTES ARE CAST AND COUNTED. None of this calling it while folks are out voting.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
19. I think you're on the right track, but need to get practical...
...and local.

There is absolutely no way that the keystone cops we call our elections officials are going to overhaul the entire elction system to our liking before 2008, much less 2006.

But a "wish list" like yours is a good idea. Just we should have an organized list of practical steps to be taken, and it should be specialized to fit local scenarios.

For example, in an opscan county, one wish might be that the technicians that calibrate or otherwise service the machines not know what precincts those machines are going to go to. Having all machines calibrated in a central location, after they have been assigned, randomly, to precincts, but before their precinct assignments have been released to the staff at large would be best.

But having this wish on a list given to a paper voting county clerk would just be distracting, and giving it to a precinct captain who has no say in the matter would likewise be distracting.

So if we intend to canvas the elections officials with our wish lists, we should develop customized wishlists where each item is germain to the individual county, and where people are only asked to do what it is within their power to do.

Developing these lists IMO would be worth the time of our movement.

One place such development might go on would be if a "legacy" group were to form for these people here:

http://open-vote.org /

...these guys are not developing code or machines, but standards. Unfortunately, they are only taking on e-voting. A "legacy" subcommittee of this group, if formed, would be responsible for coming up with standards that apply to other current technologies.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. This is for those who think that a Touchscreen witha paper trial
will work---NO it wont--They say that a sample will recounted to prevent fraud---after the Ohio recount that argument dont hold water.

US Touchscreens use a proprietery source code. Protected under Corp. Law-
Venezalua--touchscreens had paper trail and---OPEN source code in the public domain.
Italy-IIRC hardwired chips in touchscreens--try and hack that folks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Agreed, but...
...mainly what I'm talking about is damage control in the short term.

In the long term, no question about it, we don't want these types of closed-source DREs in play. How many counties, though, are going to say, "well it's what we've got and we don't have money to replace them" when the issue of switching is raised. How many are going to even seriously try? More if we pressure them, but not 100%.

One thing that we should have been taught by Ohio is that a balanced election board is only balanced if our seats have their act together and are on the lookout for every one of a hundred flavors of fraud and disenfranchisement.

So we must pressure not only for a move to voter-verified, transparent systems, but also for competance and alertness in the meantime.

Which is why we need targeted wish lists addressed at the key players: SOS, BOE members, precinct captains, poll judges, poll workers, GOTV workers, and last but certainly not least, voters themselves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beth in VT Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
20. Iowa has a caucus, not a primary,
which should be discontinued or at least not kick off the primary season.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beth in VT Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
22. We really need to push instant runoff voting to
break the stagnation of our political culture that's resulted from having 2 dominant parties.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I must dissagree- IRV will give the 3rd party a leg up
But when the 3rd paryt gets to an even level with the 2nd party--IRV will help the 3rd party--
In other words--
IRV would help the Green Party (lets say) get to an = footing with the Dems. Maybe exceeding the Dems in Congress--wouldnt the IRV then assist the Dems (who are then a 3rd party) to get = with the greens?

So does it fix a thing-long term? Not really. Might foster an envorinment where Dems & Greens would have to forma coalition gov.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. IRV has some down sides, to be sure, but it is the ranked voting
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 03:31 PM by GreenPartyVoter
format most likely to get adopted in the near future.

But remember just as you might see some Dems swapped out for Greens, you will see the same on the right side of the spectrum, so es it might push us toward a coalition type of government.

We are trying, once again, to get IRV here in Maine. Will let you know if it gets anywhere this time.

------------------------------------------------------
Join the new Boston Tea Party!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/index.htm#shopping
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. I dont see Coalition as a solution--IRV by itself is no solution
take the money out of the system--yeah now U R talking
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. We've taken a lot of money out of the system here in Maine
and still have only one Green in our legislature. That was a good start, but didn't go far enough for me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beth in VT Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. Yes, it will give rise to a more vibrant political culture. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beth in VT Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. Isn't the point for the people to have the representation they want?
Many feel the 2-party system has become too fossilized and needs some meaningful competition.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iconoclastNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #24
58. I doubt anyone in the Green Party would have a problem
with having the power to form a coaltion government with the Dems. This is significantly more power than they'll have in the next 20 years without IRV.

IRV would have so many positive effects. Just think about how many more people would vote just becaue they have another choice, or how many people who would not run as Dem might run as a Green knowing that with IRV they wouldn't be aiding the evil R candidate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
25. Verified Voting (VVPB + random audits) is JOB #1! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
26. My list is
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
28. i'd like to start with the campaigning bullcrap and the debates
traveling across the country causing cities to put out for their security just so they can preach to their own crowd is just stupid.
We need more debates and real ones where the person wanting to lead our country can be pressed until we get an answer.
He won't need to have hidden microphones as he can get help from his team. We don't expect him to memorize every number. His team can help with those things. What we want is an answer. A real answer to whatever questions we want to ask.
All that is of course before we get to the polls.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
29. wish list
What if the voter registrations had to be printed in the local paper 1 week before the deadline so that people could see if they were still registered or if their mail in registration was not received. They post a list of everyone in Baltimore who has not paid their taxes before they auction off the property. Every one here reads it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madison2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
32. To meet the international standards set by the Carter center
1.
-- management and administration of elections should be impartial and transparent. No partisan officials administering elections
-- an independent national election authority that administers elections nationwide with uniform processes and standards.

2.
-- uniform voting procedures within states and perhaps nationwide, and antiquated voting machinery should be replaced with more reliable technology in all communities, rich or poor.
--simulations of voting systems would test reliability and accuracy before elections and build confidence in new technology.

3.
-- a way to let voters know whether they have followed proper procedure and a way that they can immediately correct mistakes.
-- a paper record of the vote or a paper receipt for the voter and for the purposes of investigating election challenges.

4.
-- an information-sharing system among counties and among states to cross-check voter registration to eliminate duplications, deceased registrants, and other errors.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. Carter Center: National standards? I see a danger in this!
Carter Center: "an independent national election authority that administers elections nationwide with uniform processes and standards."

You want BushCons setting "national standards" for voting, and stacking a so-called "independent national election authority" the way they stack the courts? (--or putting weak Dems on it for "balance"?)

Right now, our only hope for retrieving our right to vote is the states' authority over election rules.

Bush's Congress is not going to fix this, and could make it worse. The Dems have no power to pass good election standards or to prevent even worse dictates from on high.

BEWARE!

I think we have to do this locally, state by state, where the public still has some influence, and where officials and rules are closer to home.

We are dealing with a junta--a fascist coup. You think they're going to be fair? You think they want you to vote?

Get real.

They could change the Constitution tomorrow, grab all power over elections, and who could stop them? The Dems? The media?

Even in bad states like Ohio and Florida, it's better to leave state power in tact, because that way public has a CHANCE to get control of it again. If BushCons grab that power (urged on by Dems wanting "national standards"), look out!

I know some of the Dems like this as an issue (and J. Jackson wants a Constitutional amendment), but I think they are being blind to the realities of the situation, and do not perceive this danger. I'd just as soon Congress keep its hands off of election reform. Look at the goddamned mess they created! --and the result, four more years (or more) of the Oil Cartel running our government!

Maybe some correction of abuses okay--like reinforcement of the Voting Rights Act(!), and calling off the Blackwell dogs. But forcing the states to do this and that carries the huge risk that the "this and that" will be dead wrong!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madison2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. wow you read a lot into that
Independent means independent. We'd have to think about how to do that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. OK, here's the problem. If we continue to have state controls
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 06:39 PM by bush_is_wacko
No Federal court will deal with potential legal issues. Just as in the past. There has to be a solution. Federal regulation rules enforceable at a state level maybe? I have wrestled with this many times. We have to have NATIONWIDE standards. That way if fraud does occur, EVERY American citizen can easily see what law has been broken. And , hopefully, we would then all be on the same page regarding prosecution of those crimes. As it is now the standards are all over the place and the average American can't make heads or tails of what should or should not be investigated and/or prosecuted.

On Edit: India is the largest Democracy. Does anyone know how they do it? It might be interesting to research that countries methods and see what we can incorperate here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. Is this what you are getting at?
This post below is from the thread yesterday.
I am trying to get a handle on how you make "federal regulation enforceable at a state level"...(like in a hurry)--I'm no scholar of government or laws, but it strikes me this is a feasible approach.
Any other input?
marions ghost

-------------------------------
from yesterday
anaxarchos (107 posts) Wed Jan-12-05 11:22 AM
Response to Original message

8. One approach to the tactical problem...
is to package up the applicable provisions of a national program (registration, voting standards,etc.) into a generic states program. The tactic then is to fight for conforming to such a national initiative at the state levels using referendum and legislative mechanisms where they make sense. This gets us into the game in the next year to two years and eliminates waiting for anything other than the drafting of such a program. State conformance has limits and becomes redundant if comprehensive national legislation is passed but in the meantime:

1) It pushes the program of a national VRA (?voting rights ammendment?) immediately without waiting for a congressional majority.
2) It makes the fight for such an effort both very broad and geographically distributed (i.e. "grassroots").
3) It links directly to the fraud in the 2000 & 2004 elections and starts practically eroding Republican fake majorities very quickly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #51
60. Yes, Yes, Yes!
This is exactly what I'm trying to get at. If the riles and regulations are universal prosecutions of those that try to get around the rules will be MUCH easier for the average citizen to understand and back. This type of legislation needs to be started now. If it is on the ballots in EVERY state come the next election, I'd bet it would pass with the proper advertising. Americans want simple, easy to understand legislation and in Colorado citizens initiatives are the way things get done. Do we have someone with the knowledge to get something like this going?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. am on your wave
but lacking in knowledge.

bushiswacko, could you post this as a thread of it's own--seems we need to get discussion going--I know I have a general confusion and ignorance about the best way to pursue a state/federal strategy, so plenty of others out there probably do, too. I would like to get a clear picture of how it might work in a practical sense, with priorities.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Sure, and welcome to DU!
Will post in this forum for you. Hope you get some bites.
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
33. Exit Polls as fraud check. Ban corporate media from elections.
EXIT POLLS AS A CHECK ON FRAUD.

Exit Polls are used worldwide to verify elections. Why not here?

Our exit pollster (Mitofksy), hired by the TV networks, did what he called a demographic poll (how many rural black men voted for Bush? etc.). But Steven Freeman, who did one of the most important Exit Poll analyses, reports that Mitofsky said there is no reason his Exit Poll data can't be used to the verify election. (See Freeman: 2nd paper, below)

Still, what they did on Election Night is to CHANGE the Exit Poll data on everybody's TV screens, "adjusting" those figures (which showed a Kerry win) to fit the "official results" fed through AP to the networks from BushCon-controlled central electronic vote tabulators (which showed a Bush win late in the day).

Thus American voters were denied the information that there was a conflict between the Exit Polls and the "official result"--unlike in the Ukraine, where they had two separate, conflicting figures, and knew right away that something was wrong.

Then, Pugs used the easy, meaningless line that our Exit Polls were demographic to pooh-pooh the Exit Polls.

And none of this answers the question: With a new and highly controversial voting system, never before used in a national election, being tested for the first time (not to mention with BushCons owning the source code as secret, proprietary information), and with all the doubts about '00, WHY DIDN'T MITOFSKY, THE NETWORKS, THE DEMOCRATS or **SOMEBODY** commission a poll SPECIFICALLY to verify this election...???

...instead of all this bogus talk of demographics and polling samples!

Cripes--they don't have these problems in Germany or Canada or anywhere else (except in the former Stalinist Russia!).

Germany: Paper ballots placed into glass containers, sealed and guarded 24 hours a day until the count. All tallies, changes in tallies, exit polls and everything else is done right out in the open where everybody can see. (Freeman, 2nd paper.)

---------

BAN CORPORATE MEDIA from any election reporting during the election. Non-partisan Public TV only. No other reports (until it's all counted and over with).

Public TV: No reports of vote tallies or exit polls until all votes are counted.

One of the REASONS our system was so easy to mess with is the corporate news media's desire to have instant results.

Thus, they would be telling CA voters who were still casting votes that it's all over in FLA and the east coast. And other abuses.

This final abuse--their ALTERING the Exit Polls in an election that CRIED OUT for verification--is too much. In my opinion, it's the worse journalistic crime of the age, bar none--and I will never forgive them for it. (They claim it's always been done this way. B.S.! It SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN DONE THIS WAY **THIS TIME** and they damn well know it!)

In fact, I would not only take these corporate war profiteers entirely out of the loop on elections, I would dismantle them completely and charge them with war crimes.

But that's another discussion.

------

Dr. Steven Freeman's papers on the exit poll discrepancies:
(1st paper) http://www.truthout.org/unexplainedexitpoll.pdf
(also at: http://www.buzzflash.com/alerts/04/11/Expldiscrpv00oPt1... )
(2nd paper) http://www.appliedresearch.us/sf/epdiscrep.htm



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
4democracy Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. We need exit polls to expose fraud, but the pollsters should be
accountable to the American public and no one else. There has to a way to have a group that is non-partisan that could be trusted. From what I understand Germany uses exit polling and knows the results in hours but they still take a week or so to hand count each ballot to confirm the outcome. We should be able to do that as well.
As far as counting is concerned,if each precinct openly counts its own votes on election night,it would only take a few hours.
Those numbers should also be published openly so that the final totals could not be manipulated without anyone being the wiser.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
34. check the voting bill of rights
at nov3.us
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iconoclastNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #34
59. That is good but they are OK with electronic voting
I will never have confidence in any election that was touched by electronic machines.

No machine can be made non-partisan. It is too easy to screw with them. Even with open source.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
39. Federal, enforceable, election standards and laws.
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 05:47 PM by bush_is_wacko
It will do us no good to have all the things we are asking for without federal rules and regulations governing ALL states. Those should include precluding all election board officials from contributing or receiving monetary contributions and career boosts from either candidate.

These officials should have a minimum waiting period before running for any office (4 years would do nicely) so that we can assure they have gotten nothing in return for doing their job.

Standardized poll worker training would also be a positive. Right now states can pretty much train these people any way they want to.


With regards to counting the votes, I think it is either Sweden or Switzerland that votes on colored paper (small 3" by say 7" or 8"). Each issue and each candidate has a different color paper. During counting there is a representative of each side of every issue and a representative of each candidate. They put thier tables in a big circle so they can watch each other and they just sit there and count. Any side can object, but that usually doesn't happen because everyone KNOWS they are being watched by the other side. I think this sounds fair and reasonable. There are also outside observers that can walk from table to table, but can't touch the votes. They ALSO have the power to object, but agin, it never happens because everyone KNOWS they are being watched.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. bush_is_wacko, please see my post #38 re National Standards and...
...the danger of BushCons taking election control away from the states.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
44. Source code. $$$ in campaigns. Old fashioned values.
Source code.

This is the biggest problem, and why we still have Bush as president. BushCons control the central electronic vote tabulators, run on secret source code that they hold as proprietary information. No public review! ( Incredible!)

If I could change one thing (and one thing only) it would be this.

Absolutely violates all principles of transparency and good government.

----------------

$$$ in campaigns.

Before they stole our right to vote, the big problem was the overwhelming influence of money--especially corporate money--on political campaigns and politicians, and, consequently, on elected officials. That problem has not gone away. And one of the biggest, most corrupt influences on it is corporate TV, which is the biggest beneficiary of our campaign donations (in very expensive TV ads).

So...like Diebold being the chief beneficiary of our hard earned tax dollars for providing this piece of shit of an election system (and then contributing some of those big $$'s to Bush!)...

...the TV networks that have screwed our democracy over in uncountable ways ALSO get fat on our money, and in exchange provide stupid, shitty political commercials that keep the public ignorant about anything important, and furthermore include hit pieces on progressive politicians.

Nice set up.

But I don't think there is much we can do about until we get back our right to vote.

Then: Constitutional Amendment (#28) banning all private money in political campaigns, devoting a percentage of the federal budget to candidate communication with voters, and reclaiming some of our public airwaves for political debate.

Campaign finance reform has failed because it is not the law of the land. BushCon courts have ruled that it violates the 1st Amendment ($$$ = free speech) (didn't you know that's what it says?). So....we have to put honest elections on the same footing as the 1st Amendment. Then we can all battle that one out in the courts--but at least it will have a chance.

We also need a Constitutional amendment to do this, so we can override whatever corrupt arrangements have been made, contractually, between the TV networks and the FCC.

Require of the networks, say, 8 hours of prime time TV per day for six weeks prior to the election (or some such formula). Have six week campaigns--no campaigning before that (except for conventions). Candidates maybe can speak with news media, say they're running--free speech, after all--but they don't get money, and can't spend money except during the 6 week period. Maybe pay the networks for studio/production facilities. Maybe require that all production professionals (for creating candidate broadcasts) be volunteer.

Need some definition of in-kind contributions, and limits on those.

The spirit of the amendment should be stated clearly: To remove private money from politics so that the political interests of the rich do not have more influence on government than those of the poor.

-----------

Old-fashioned values.

Really, I'm feeling great nostalgia for the days when I strolled into my polling place, signed in (in my experience, by people who knew me well), filled out a paper ballot, and watched some silver-haired little old lady volunteer (they are the most vigilant people, truly) place it into a sealed box, which was guarded by those same, vigilant silver-haired, little old lady volunteers, and we all personally knew the guy with the truck who would be driving that box to the county seat, accompanied by...you got it!

Now I would add one element to that old-fashioned picture: I'd have the vigilant, silver-haired, little old lady volunteers COUNT THE BALLOTS, right there, at the end of day--with any voter or citizen observing who cared to do so--post the result next to the sign-in sheet (so that anyone could add up the numbers), phone the totals into the county seat, and then send the box of ballots in the truck.

That way, WE know what the count is--and any potential shenanigans on the trip to county seat would be moot.

The BushCons are always talking about "moral values" and "family values." So let's throw that back in their faces--the hypocrites!--and talk about the old-fashioned, moral value of: HONESTY.

------------

While we're wishing: I really like the idea of Instant Run-off Voting. It makes sense in so many ways. Saves the taxpayers election money. Gives people more choices. Puts the fear of God into our corrupt, entrenched, warmongering Republicrats! I say "Yes" to that!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
45. 2 Independent counts.
One must be of a paper ballot By hand. The second must be counted by a different group of people, or other method.

-Hoot
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NationalEnquirer Donating Member (571 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
46. 100% ID check.
Perhaps a voters registration ID with picture on it and hologram. Cross checked with something else, like a drivers license if possible.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ouabache Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
47. No contribution$ from voting machine makers to ANY candidate
Whatsoever. That is money that should be OUT of politic$ entirely. No one from the board of any voting machine company may be associated with ANY campaign whatsoever, either. They have to be above even the APPEARANCE of partiality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
48. Re: the discussion of national standards...
I'm just really wary of what these people might do next, is all. Really, really wary.

1. 9/11. No protection of our nation's capitol--though they had an hour's time to at least point some ack-ack guns at the incoming plane/missile. Jeez. Air Force stand-down. All standard procedures failed. And we still don't know why, or who is responsible for this unbelievable failure.

2. Millions of people in the streets protesting, 60% of the American public against it, the United Nations against it, major allies of ours against it, no provocation, no harm to us, yet Bush invades Iraq and kills 100,000-plus people with impunity, takes over the country, re-writes their laws, privatizes their economy, tortures hundreds of innocent prisoners...

3. Cheney holds secret energy meetings with criminals and shiesters, at which (it has emerged) they were pouring over maps of Iraq's oil wells...and says "fuck you" to anyone who asks about the attendants or content of this meeting...

4. Bush okayed the torture. But who cares any more? Does anyone care?

I could go on. This list of outrageous violations of laws, treaties and proper government conduct is very long.

And, as each additional outrage comes down, we must not forget the last, and the one before that--and get lulled into a dream, an illusion, that this junta is going to hand us back our right to vote.

And they are especially clever at making something SOUND good that is particularly wretched ("No Child Left Behind," the "Help American Vote Act," the "Clean Skies Initiative").

What we are going to see from them is the "Help America Vote Again and This Time Get It Right (but we really mean get it wrong) Act," and it will either...

a) contain righteous sounding provisions like a "voter verified paper ballot," which, once they have taken away the states' power over elections, they will rescind (who is there to stop them?), or

b) will outright require paperless, electronic voting everywhere in the country, with no-bid contracts to Diebold and ES&S (and who is there to stop them?)

And with no power in the states any more to regulate elections, we--the citizens, the voters--will have no way to correct this situation.

Please heed me. We have gone beyond Germany 1933 (Hitler's rise) to Germany 1934--the consolidation of all government power. BushCons now control the presidency, the Congress, the courts, the military, the news media AND the election system.

Hoping that they will be fair--that they will see the error of their ways and give power back to the people--is naive. Although the U.S. differs from Germany in many ways (much bigger, much more variety in the population, much harder to control), we need to learn from history. Fascists, thugs, mass murderers do not give power back. It's a lot trickier here, than it was in Germany--they have to work harder at fooling people, and keeping up this illusion of democracy. But it's the same M.O.

So that's all I'm saying. Be very, very careful. Be very, very wary. Watch out for trickery.

Maybe the solution could involve MINIMUM standards, but with no particular voting system mandated. It should AVOID requiring electronic voting, and should ALSO avoid bribing states to buy electronic systems by providing money only for those.

But most of all I think it should protect states' rights. It's not the variety in the current system that is really the problem. The MAIN PROBLEM is the electronic voting machines and the secret source code--the non-transparency and lack of verification.

The variety in the system is a problem for monitoring specific cases of vote suppression and voter intimidation. But, frankly, despite how awful those have been, that is not the main problem. Also, we already HAVE federal laws covering those violations. The problem is not what the law says. The problem is that we have a fascist coup running the country that doesn't CARE what the law says and doesn't enforce it. What they did in Ohio is already against federal law!

We're trying to solve a problem--the Bush administration's lawlessness--by passing more laws (or trying to) and expecting THEM not only to obey the law, but to enforce it.

And you think they are going to PERMIT a law to be passed that they don't want (and one that restores our right to vote)?

No way will they do this. But they might do trickery.

And, given the Democrats' lack of power, their miserable record so far with regard to protecting our right to vote, and their seeming obliviousness to the problem, how confident are we that they won't get tricked again?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
49. Election officials should not be allowed to be campaign managers!
that was one of the main points written in the reports by foreign watch groups.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
50. No more PAC's
equal air time for all candidates on a designated station that every american has access to. No more ridiclous soundbyte lying through their rotten teeth ads.

And while we're at it, policy should be voted on, and so should all the cabinet members.

I know, fat chance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Democrat Dragon Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
52. Recall elections incase it is proven that the winner didn't win
Nuff said
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blackbeard Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
53. Did you know?
Did you know that you don't actually have a constitutional right to vote for President? Each state's legislature sets the method by which its electors are chosen. They could pick electors by coin toss if they wanted to. There will be no national standard for the conducting of elections, nor should there be. If you're unhappy with the way your state conducts elections, take it up with your state representative.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. why shouldn't there be a national standard?
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 09:31 PM by Faye
why?

and what is that makes you so sure there 'won't be'??????????
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blackbeard Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Because
Mainly because you are voting for state-level officers (the electors), and the Feds have no authority to set the methods by which they are chosen. I'm sure everyone remembers the last time the Feds intervened in a state election (FL 2000).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Democrat Dragon Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
56. kick!
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
57. TO SHED LIGHT ON HOW ELECTIONS ARE RUN IN UK AND AUSTRALIA
I posted on another board asking people from the UK and Australia how their elections are run, to give us some ideas. They all sounded pretty confident in their process. Here is my question and following are snips of the replies:

Question: What do you vote on? Paper ballot, touchscreen, etc....and are your paper ballots marked with pen, or are they punch card ballots (ran through a machine to be tabulated)? If you use machines, are they publically funded? Do the producers of the machines contribute money to any of the candidates' campaigns?

Does your country use exit polls to keep track of the votes? If so, have they always been reliable, or have there been inaccuracies and problems with them?

Do you have confidence in your electoral system, and do you think most in your country also have confidence?



UK:

In the UK the elections are handled by local councils. We vote on paper. You register on a "register of electors" once a year and when any elections come up you get a polling card. It's marked with your polling station which is open from 7am to 9pm, same everywhere in the country. You go, hand in your card, get checked off against the register, get a ballot paper and mark it in ink with a cross next to who you are voting for, ballots are pre-printed with ALL candidates. You put your ballot in a sealed box. The boxes are collected at the end of the day by local council officials and get counted...they ALL get counted. Counts are monitored, polling stations are monitored. We don't use exit polls...we prefer to actually count all the votes. There is no corporate interference in any aspect of the voting. we don't actually vote for a Prime Minister, we vote for an MP in our particular constituency, and the party with the most MPs in Parliament wins - so in effect we vote for the party. The leader of the party becomes Prime Minister.


Australia:

We vote on paper ballots, with a pencil, marking square boxes with numbers. I'm uncertain whether they're read by computers or people, but i'd assume they're all hand counted. it would be an interesting machine that can read MY handwritten numbers, afterall. perhaps i'm wrong and there are computers that help... but i've never heard of any.

if there are machines, i feel sure they'd be publically owned.

there have never really been any problems with a federal election as far as i remember.

I have more confidence in my electoral system than i would in the american one if i lived there, but i still don't like it much as it is. still, it seems to work somewhat. I think most people think it works fairly well, i seldom hear complaints about it really. except from politically minded friends of mine. .

the system is similar to the british, in that you vote for local federal MP's, for them to take a seat in the house of representatives. I'm not exactly sure what majority a party needs to officially have won.

i've never heard of any exit polls being used anywhere.

if you are eligible to vote, and you don't, and you haven't written in to explain why and gain an exception, there are pretty heavy fines. This is in any election. Local council, state parliament, federal parliament...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
61. Here is what is needed
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. love it?!
I could see some uses for this ....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dandrhesse Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
62. www.chuckherrin.com
If you haven't heard of this site, check it out. He is a self-professed computer geek and a professional hacker. He is also a Republican and is totally disillusioned and upset with his party, so it's a good source of info in more than one way!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Riding this Donkey Donating Member (658 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
63. Paper trail is not the end all be all of our problems and our reps think
it is. I would like the people in places of power in the democratic party to stop worrying so much about a paper trail. It is important, but that minimizes the problem.

We need our elections out of the corporations hands who have an interest in the outcome of the peoples elections.

We need to have a bi partisan committee running elections in our states, not partisan hacks. Or make federal guidelines to formalize and make uniform our voting for federal elections.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Oct 21st 2014, 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC