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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:41 PM
Original message
Naysayers are just way too primitive
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Shalom Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. You've Got Lots of Good Sites, what's your main message ?
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Naysayers lurking around today want to deny the validity of exit polling
Those links will make a bit more "difficult" for them.
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. ..and when it gets ugly again, I'll kick this thread again!
Thanks, Raul!
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. You welcome, Rev,
They are unbelievable, eh?
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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. If your evidence is really so strong...
Then why do Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, Barack Obama, Tom Harkin, Dick Durbin, Patty Murray, Ron Wyden, Bob Graham, Harry Reid, Russ Feingold, Joe Biden, and John Kerry (among others) say that Bush won? Are they *all* part of Bush's grand conspiracy?
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I think what John Kerry said was
that they didn't have enough evidence to overturn the election. That's a whole lot different than saying "Bush won."
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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Statement by Sen. John Kerry on November 3, 2004:
"Earlier today, I spoke to President Bush, and I offered him and Laura our congratulations on their victory. We had a good conversation and we talked about the danger of division in our country and the need the desperate need for unity, for finding the common ground, coming together..."

Full speech
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Vektor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Sadly....
despite what we are finding out now, I am sure Kerry believed, for all practical purposes, that Bush HAD won on Nov. 3rd. It LOOKED like he had 120,000 extra votes. Kerry did what he thought was right.
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. As I said before, (is not against you), very skewed rationale...
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 12:18 AM by RaulVB
"The cheat is so big it can't possibly be a cheat..."

They assumed that the other side would play by the rules.

Nonsense!
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Vektor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I know...
...it's too bad. I think Kerry has been honorable. It's the Repukes who have butchered the system and spit in the face of democracy.
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. No. The status quo is good for those with power
Simple.
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myschkin Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. answer

<Then why do Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, Barack Obama, Tom Harkin, Dick Durbin, Patty Murray, Ron Wyden, Bob Graham, Harry Reid, Russ Feingold, Joe Biden, and John Kerry (among others) say that Bush won? Are they *all* part of Bush's grand conspiracy?>

Because they are not informed.

Could they ever ignore serious studies like that one from Freeman and Baiman (and Berkeley)?

They just got the Conyers Paper...


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euler Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Could they ever ignore serious studies ?
It's easy to ignore 'serious studies' when actual exit poll experts write more serious studies that say these studies are bunk.

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berniew1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. There's lots of documentation of vote machine fraud, dirty tricks, suppres
suppression of minorities and students, etc. Many hundreds of thousands were directly affected and everyone indirectly. But there are also lots of other things going on where flagrantly illegal and dumb actions are leading to results that are building to a crescendo. its just a matter of what will the the straw to bring down the house of cards. If people persevere and work together, good things will happen and justice will prevail(to some extent). Major breakthroughs are just around the corner.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
11. Help me finish this...
One one side we got:

Voter Suppression, Voter Intimidation, Exit Polls, Software "Glitches", Recount Irregularities, Blackwell's Actions, Moyer's Action's... what else?

Then we have:

Conyer's Work, Arnebeck's Suit, Challenged Electors, Congressional Testimony, Introduced Legislation, FBI (is in this somewhere I think)... what else?

And the Backdrop:

Oh, let's spare ourselves listing all the clouds gathering about the WH.

And another backdrop:

I can't get that old grainy B&W footage of Kerry in Vietnam out of my head. You know, the one where he's carrying his rifle.

There's something about his gait.
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
15. Naysayers are back at it (n/t)
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euler Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
16. I have no idea what argument you are attempting to support
RaulVB, do you have any idea what you are trying to convey here? If so, let us in on it.
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Good!
I'll "keep you posted"...
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euler Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. I ask: Do you have any idea what you are trying to convey here?
....and you reply "'Good' keep you posted." There are 3 possibilities here:

1. You don't know what idea you are trying to convey by your original post.

2. You do know what idea you are trying to convey by your original post, but you think it best that no one else understand what it is.

3. "'Good' keep you posted" truly is the idea you are trying to convey by your original post.

Which is it ?

To make it easy for you, you can answer by simply typing a number 1,2 or 3 in the subject line.
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euler Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
18. These links demonstrate that exit polls are conducted in Europe
Who doubted that ?
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Ha, ha (n/t)
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euler Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Ha, ha (n/t)
Was my 'ha ha' response any more effective than your 'ha ha' response? I doubt it. This begs the question: Why do you say anyhthing at all?
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euler Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
21. and .... the facts bounce off...
You could also post a link that demonstrates the difference between European Exit polls and US Exit Polls. Now that would be quite interesting. Oh. Wait, here's one.

http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2004/12/what_about_...

It's interesting. European exit polls use true random samples of respondents, not random precincts as done here in the US. A direct result of this is that European exit polls can be used to verify the actual count, whereas US exit polls cannot. US polls are still accurate, but they are only accurate when used as they are designed to be used. Europe wants to verify elections with their exit poll so their poll is designed to give them that information. Our poll is designed to provide the MSM with demographic information for later analysis. Since MSM pays for it, that's what they get.

George Lakoff wrote in his book, dont think of an elephant!

We believe that "if we just tell people the facts, since people are basically rational beings, theyll all reach the right conclusions. But we know from cognitive science that people do not think like that. People think in frames....To be accepted, the truth must fit peoples frames. If the facts do not fit a frame, the frame stays and the facts bounce off."

We aren't immune to this phenomenon just because we're progressive.

Finally, it seems that discussion of exit polls will be moot soon anyway. When the progressive media (Alternet.org, Tompaine.com) begins criticizing the exit poll hysteria, you know it's time to retire.

http://www.alternet.org/story/20934

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/election_2004_stolen_o...
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Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
23. As soon as I saw your post
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 03:53 PM by Karenca
I knew exactly who was going to respond. :crazy:
For example, it's obvious when someone joins DU, and w/in just 2 weeks of joining, manages to post 320 NEGATIVE only remarks.
Why bother with the naysayers. I believe this forum should help us create ways that we are going to deal with and expose the crimes that tool place Nov. 2nd.
The naysayers are just trying to succeed at thwarting out attempts to expose these acts...they are tring to disrupt us.
The only thing they contribute to this forum is to take up space.
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euler Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. That's exactly what this forum is for. Thanks.
"I believe this forum should help us create ways that we are going to deal with and expose the crimes that tool place Nov. 2nd."
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Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. "That's exactly what this forum is for."
So then, if that's exactly what you infer you believe,
why expend all of your energy trying debunk the work in progress here?
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mgr Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Because the exit polling issue is a red herring
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 01:48 PM by mgr
It would appear that advocates of the position that the raw Mitofski exit polls show that fraud occurred in the US Election of 2004 are irrational. Can you present a coherent statement as to what reasonable evidence you could entertain to abandon your position. If you cannot consider the possibility that your attachment to the issue is based more on emotion than rationality, then you have a problem. Emotional and irrational arguments bordering on stubborness are what will get us killed in the national media.

I have stated before, and I will state once again, sufficient evidence exists showing that TIA's analysis, as fruitful as it may have been to start, is in error and should be abandoned. That evidence exists in the hand count for Washington, it exists in the examples of the exit voting for the Ukrainian revote.

It is you, the fanatics that are hurting the cause.

Mike
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Suggestion:
Abandon your position.

Fanatics like you are "hurting the cause..."
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Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. I know what you mean
and I know WHY you try to dissuade us.

You put too much effort into this.
No one is taking your attacks seriously.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. And just what do you think those crimes were, Euler?
And how are you helping to expose them?
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
27. "Collateral" kick (n/t)
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
29. "Side" kick (n/t)
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