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Lets Recount Ohio!! I've got $20 down!! Any takers??

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adolfo Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:26 PM
Original message
Lets Recount Ohio!! I've got $20 down!! Any takers??
A few DUers here suggested recounting Ohio by taking advantage of similar laws like Florida. In Florida anyone can count the ballots if they can pay for the clerk's time. There shouldn't be much of a difference in Ohio.

We can start with the most problematic counties. Even if we can't do the whole state we should at least complete 1 county. It doesn't matter if the results are unofficial. We need solid hard evidence no one can dispute.

Where is the group(s) that can organize such a task? I've got $20 bucks down. It may not be much but together we can make it happen!
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keepthemhonest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. What are the laws on this
I'll match your 20 if it can be done
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OKthatsIT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Only if We get to choose the counties
then i'll give.

If youre looking for the entire state recount....thats impossible to do. It was always impossible to do because of the touchscreen machines.
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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. If this can really happen, I will match too! n/t
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sickinohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'll also match your twenty if it happens
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adolfo Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. Status?
Can someone tell me the current status on the last Ohio "recount"? Is it in the courts or is it over?
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Lurker321 Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. The recount is officially over -
the Greens/Libertarians are suing (I think) over it, but the recount is over. I believe the date that the ballots in Ohio have become available for public inspection was Jan 10th - 10 days after the official end of the recount.
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smartvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. If it happens, I'll match you. nt
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
7. Five or more electors......here is the info....
Any group of five or more qualified electors may file with the board of a county a written application for a recount of the votes cast at an election in any precinct in such county upon any question or issue, provided that the members of such group shall state in such application either that they voted "Yes" or in favor of such question or issue and that such question or issue was declared defeated or rejected, or that they voted "No" or against such question or issue and that such question or issue was declared carried or adopted. Such group of electors shall, in such application, designate one of the members of the group as chairman, and shall indicate therein the voting residence of each member of such group. In all such applications the person designated as chairman is the applicant for the purposes of sections 3515.01 to 3515.07 of the Revised Code, and all notices required by section 3515.03 of the Revised Code to be given to an applicant for a recount shall be given to such person
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Lurker321 Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. seriousstan - that portion of the law only refers
to the "official" recount. That is what Greens and Libertarians have already conducted. The law that would allow a "personal recount" now is the one that makes all ballots publically accessible after the "canvassing period" is over.
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I realized that after posting, please see my next post below
I think this addresses the issue more closely.
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
8. Even more proof this can be done, by the Ohio Supreme Court.....
Secret Ballot Requirement Does Not Preclude Review of Ballots as Evidence of Election Tampering

The Supreme Court of Ohio ruled 7-0 today that language in state election laws protecting the secrecy of ballots does not preclude a court from admitting allegedly falsified ballots as evidence in a criminal prosecution for election fraud. The decision reversed rulings by the Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court and 8th District Court of Appeals.

The case involves a Cuyahoga County Board of Elections employee, John Jackson, who was accused by a co-worker of deliberately mismarking absentee ballots while assisting disabled voters at a nursing home in October 2000. Board officials asked some of the voters assisted by Jackson to re-cast their votes, and subsequently obtained a search warrant to examine and compare the two sets of ballots. Based on discrepancies between the first and second sets of ballots, Jackson was indicted for ballot tampering.

During pretrial motions, Jackson 's attorney asked the court to exclude the two sets of ballots as evidence in his criminal case on the ground that state election laws unconditionally prohibit disclosure of the contents of a completed ballot, and the state's pursuit and examination of the disputed voting records was therefore an illegal search and seizure. The trial court granted the motion to suppress. On appeal, a 2-1 majority of the 8th District upheld exclusion of the disputed ballots. The majority held that, in adopting election laws with strong protections for ballot secrecy, the legislature could have included an exception to allow election authorities or prosecutors to examine ballots for the purpose of prosecuting suspected election fraud, but did not do so.

In today's opinion, written by Justice Evelyn Lundberg Stratton, the Supreme Court overturned the lower court decisions, holding that the statutory requirement of ballot secrecy applies only to election proceedings, and not to the admission of evidence in a criminal trial.
http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/Communications_Office/sum...
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Ifonly Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. Speaking of Cuyahoga county,
has anybody ever seen this (I just stumbled across this on www.inthesetimes.com . It is 2 responses to an article by our hero Greg Palast written back in Nov 14th by someone who calls himself/herself SagGem2004):

You may have seen the associated press story about the precinct in Cuyahoga county that had less than 1,000 voters, and gave Bush almost 4,000 extra votes.

But that turns out to be only the tip of a very ugly iceberg. The evidence discovered by some remarkably careful sleuthing would convince any reasonable court to invalidate the entire Ohio election.

In last Tuesdays election, 29 precincts in Cuyahoga County, Ohio, reported votes cast IN EXCESS of the number of registered voters - at least 93,136 extra votes total. And the numbers are right there on the official Cuyahoga County Board of Elections website -

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site?URL=http://boe.cuyahog...
is the official website of the Cuyahoga county election board, providing irrefutable evidence that the vote was off by at least 93,000.

Kerry lost Ohio by approximately 130,000, so this is not an insignificant figure that can be ignored, particularly when there are numerous other indications of voter fraud in Ohio and elsewhere.

<snip>

Thanks for the brain-food yall - - keep up the great dialogue
Posted by SagGem2004 on November 17, 2004 at 8:51 PM


From the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections website:

Bay Village - 13,710 registered voters / 18,663 ballots cast
Beachwood - 9,943 registered voters / 13,939 ballots cast
Bedford - 9,942 registered voters / 14,465 ballots cast
Bedford Heights - 8,142 registered voters / 13,512 ballots cast
Brooklyn - 8,016 registered voters / 12,303 ballots cast
Brooklyn Heights - 1,144 registered voters / 1,869 ballots cast
Chagrin Falls Village - 3,557 registered voters / 4,860 ballots cast
Cuyahoga Heights - 570 registered voters / 1,382 ballots cast
Fairview Park - 13,342 registered voters / 18,472 ballots cast
Highland Hills Village - 760 registered voters / 8,822 ballots cast
Independence - 5,735 registered voters / 6,226 ballots cast
Mayfield Village - 2,764 registered voters / 3,145 ballots cast
Middleburg Heights - 12,173 registered voters / 14,854 ballots cast
Moreland Hills Village - 2,990 registered voters / 4,616 ballots cast
North Olmstead - 25,794 registered voters / 25,887 ballots cast
Olmstead Falls - 6,538 registered voters / 7,328 ballots cast
Pepper Pike - 5,131 registered voters / 6,479 ballots cast
Rocky River - 16,600 registered voters / 20,070 ballots cast
Solon (WD6) - 2,292 registered voters / 4,300 ballots cast
South Euclid - 16,902 registered voters / 16,917 ballots cast
Strongsville (WD3) - 7,806 registered voters / 12,108 ballots cast
University Heights - 10,072 registered voters / 11,982 ballots cast
Valley View Village - 1,787 registered voters / 3,409 ballots cast
Warrensville Heights - 10,562 registered voters / 15,039 ballots cast
Woodmere Village - 558 registered voters / 8,854 ballots cast
Bedford (CSD) - 22,777 registered voters / 27,856 ballots cast
Independence (LSD) - 5,735 registered voters / 6,226 ballots cast
Orange (CSD) - 11,640 registered voters / 22,931 ballots cast
Warrensville (CSD) - 12,218 registered voters / 15,822 ballots cast




Kerrys statement the day after the election that there were not enough provisional ballots to have any chance to alter the result of the election may have been true, but it was a bit misleading since provisional ballots are only part of the story. There were also absentee ballots, there were reports of substantial pockets of election problems, and allegations of over-voting and machine malfunction. In addition, over 70 percent of Ohios votes were done with punch cards. We know that when you do a challenge to those, they tend to turn over. So there is room to challenge Ohio and other states. This is not to say that a recount is likely to change the result of the election, but it is not an impossibility.

COUNT EVERY VOTE AND LET THE CHIPS FALL WHERE THEY MAY!!!
Posted by SagGem2004 on November 17, 2004 at 9:00 PM

Now how do you suppose all those extra votes got cast?
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Lurker321 Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Did you look at the Web site you gave the link to?
In Presidential race:

Bay Village 13,710 registered voters / 8904 votes cast
Beachwood 9,943 registered voters / 5531 votes cast

etc. Not one precinct with more votes cast than registered voters.

Where did you get the weird numbers?
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Ifonly Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Sorry about that.
After you went and looked at that website and noticed what you did (why couldn't silly me see that?), I did some research on the internet. It appears the true author of that vote-fraud allegation was a Teed Rockwell, of the philosophy department at Sonoma State University (of Censored News fame), Sonoma, California, who I think simply saw the Cuyahoga County elections web-site on or before Nov 14th and misinterpretted what the numbers meant (I suspect they were different then). An old DU post points here http://pages.ivillage.com/americans4america/id20.html as an explanation I think. (a discussion of this issue is here Unravelling the Mystery of the Cuyahoga County vote totals)

Interestingly, the same thing I posted here had already made it to rense.com, rise4news.net and some others back in November.

But I wonder, did the AP story he talks about also turn out to be bogus?
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
10. Here are the Counties to Recount, IMHO
Here are the 12 Counties in which Ellen Connally got more votes than Kerry. Bush beat Kerry by over 200,000 votes in these counties. 130,000 in Butler, Clermont and Warren alone, which were also the top 3 in which Connally got more votes than Kerry. I'd start with those 3 counties. If they come out OK, decide whether or not to move on. Check votecobb.org first to make sure none of them were done in full by hand:

Auglaize DRE (no can do)
Brown Punch Card
Butler Punch Card
Clermont OpScan
Darke Punch Card
Highland Punch Card
Mercer Punch Card
Miami OpScan
Putnam Punch Card
Shelby Punch Card
Van Wert ???
Warren Punch Card

And just for the record, the 4 Counties in which Moyer got more votes than Bush. Kerry beat Bush by 64,000 votes in these counties:

Erie ???
Mahoning ???
Stark ???
Trumbull ???
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. count me in for $20.00
Hey, if you can get a review going, I ante up $20.00. Miss Waverly
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spooked Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. Excellent information!
I believe it would be helpful to have newspaper reporters (real ones) who could join in the counting and publish the results like the Miami Hearld did in Florida.
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Zeebo Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
31. Yes! Having journalists or independents as observers is key! n/t
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adolfo Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Targeting Counties
Berniew1 has done some great research in this area. He lists 3 highly suspected counties,

(snip)
These three counties between them, Butler, Warren, and Clermont, provided all of George W. Bushs lead on election night. They also provided, by far, his three largest majorities, and the three largest increases in Bushs margin of victory among any of the 72 counties that he won. The election results in Butler, Warren, and Clermont counties should be challenged, for they call into question the results for the entire State of Ohio.
(snip)


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. those are the same ones n/t
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adolfo Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Sorry
Need to slow down my speed reading and drink less coffee. What are your opinions on these counties?
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. See post #10 n/t
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rdmccur Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. How were the votes tabulated
in these 3 counties? Were they e-vote, op-scan or what?
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TruthBeTold22 Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
34. Erie County
Moyer is from Sandusky, the county seat of Erie County. No wonder he beat bush there...he was the local boy favorite son....duh
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
14. i'll donate!!! count on it!! n/t
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
15. I'm in
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
16. I'd like to in included...
for $20...
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Pharaoh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Screw the recount, we need to revote Ohio
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 05:20 PM by Pharaoh
Can you believe the repugs want to revote the washington gov race?
And they point to exit polls in Ukraine!

What a bunch of hypocritical morons!!!!
:dem:

:dem: :dem: :dem:
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propagandafreegal Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Yeah, we need a reVote. nm
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ivorysteve Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
23. I'll throw $20 to finally knowing the real count, you bet! n/t
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senegal1 Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I donated the first time and I'll do it again. Another thread here
talks about recounting the counties which had the judge (I think) ahead of Kerry -- the idea being that seldom happends and that it would be doable. I'd seriously give this a go around again. The suggestion on the three counties that gave Bush the biggest lead is a good one too. Can we count the whole county and not just so called "random" ones that they choose?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
29. What makes you think that this recount would be any different
than the last one? :shrug:
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Zeebo Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. No one will really know unless we count it ourselves...
I think that is the point. Many feel the "official" recount was not legitimate due to the fact that they did not randomly choose 3% to hand count. This would be a full hand recount of the entire county. If fraud occurred, we will see it with a new hand count total. If fraud did not occur, the hand count will be very close to the official count.
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sickinohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. I say we take this even further - let's hand recount every vote in
the whole state, including the provisionals, the absentees and the so-called "spoiled" ballots - that would really show the fraWd - i'll up my donation from 20 to 100 if we could make that happen (and would help do the counting)
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
32. I've been thinking the same thing
If it can be done, why can't we do it? I'd match the $20 and consider it well spent, if someone knows what they're doing, and can organize it.
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abbiehoff Donating Member (356 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. How do we do this?
I absolutely will contribute at least $20.00. I will count, I will do whatever, but how do we get started. I live in Butler county and know that the county is run by Repugs who would undoubtedly do anything to prevent a fair count (much as Blackwell did statewide). Do I just contact the BOE and say let me see those punch cards?
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Lurker321 Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. You call the county offices and ask them what the
procedure is for you to request access to the ballots and what the hourly costs will be - there will be forms to fill out and deposits to be made. Once the forms are submitted and access is approved, you will schedule with them the time of the "personal recount", specify which precincts you want to count, come to their offices and count the votes, with the county personnel handling the ballots and you observing and counting.

In Florida, the costs were $10/hr. 2 precincts totalling 3000+ votes were counted in 5 hours. That is not very expensive. In Florida the results matched. Keep us informed how you do.
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abbiehoff Donating Member (356 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Is there a way to know which precincts to request?
I guess I would want to see precincts where Connalley out-polled Kerry. Is that information available somewhere, or would I have to get that from the people who undoubtedly don't want me to know the answer?
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Lurker321 Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. All the election results, broken down by precinct,
for all the races, are on the Ohio Secretary of State Web site, I believe.
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abbiehoff Donating Member (356 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Thanks, I found it on the Butler County website.
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adolfo Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. Information Gathering,
Hi Abiehoff,

Can you email me? I tried to pm you but it won't go through.


Adolfo-at-recountflorida.com
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abbiehoff Donating Member (356 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Ohio recount
I've been gathering information, and I've sent you an e-mail. Let me know what to do next.
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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
39. I'd contribute
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gapower Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
42. Count me in.
I'm there in spirit and in wallet if anybody can pin down the procedures.
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trudyco Donating Member (975 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
45. I'm in for $100 - can you look at pollbooks? can CaseOH doit? nt
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