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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:58 AM
Original message
Florida citizens' recount going on
In Florida, apparently, because of the sunshine law, citizens can do a recount on their own.

So over at blackboxvoting.org, someone is spearheading such a recount, and says he's finding interesting things. This is in the "Florida" topic,. I have no idea how complete it will end up being, and how far they are taking the auditing, etc.

But it looks like they want people in Florida to work on it.

Thought some folks might be interested.
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Lurker321 Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Same thing can be done in Ohio
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 12:05 PM by Lurker321
and in other places. Doesn't cost that much either. Instead of talking about exit polls, protesting, demonstrating, "crunching numbers" and endless statistical arguments, all anyone needs to do to prove the machine-counting fraud, if it actually happened, is to go down to your nearest few precincts and recount them. If you find a big difference between the recount and the election results, there is your proof. If you don't, all the talk about statistics and exit polls etc. is bunk.

Edit: the web site of some people who are doing it is www.recountflorida.com and from what I have seen there no big discrepancies were found yet.
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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Look at Liberty County
This is from bbv.org. And you are right, it's recountflorida. Any way we can do it, seems good to me.


Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 01:39 pm:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Florida: Something is fishy in Liberty County Precinct 7. There are 6 times more Bush votes than Registered Republicans. See similar results in other precincts from the same County.

http://www.recountflorida.com/ivrs_precincts.php?county...

Before you blame it on Dixiecrats, take a look at their neighbor Leon County.

http://www.recountflorida.com/ivrs_precincts.php?county...

All information is taken directly from the Supervisor of Elections web site.
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Lurker321 Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. recounting physical ballots can give you "proof" -
just showing that there are more Bush voters than registered Republicans does not prove anything - people are allowed to vote for Bush even if they didn't registered as Republicans. If you recount, and you find that those are *really* the results, that's the end of the game. If you recount, and find that the election results are wrong, then you have something.
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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. Kerry got something like 14% of Dems, and --
Bush got 666.7% of Dems. Funny number, doncha think? 666? Te he te he...
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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. How about New Jersey?
How can I find out whether or not it can be done in NJ?
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Lurker321 Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Call your county BOE and ask them
what kind of request you need to file in order to inspect/recount the ballots.
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Goldeneye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Does anyone know when the ballots and poll books
will be available? Or are they available now?
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Lurker321 Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. In Florida and Ohio they are available now.
Don't know about other states, but I presume that if they have similar laws to FL and OH the ballots are available today.
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adolfo Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Yes
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 01:02 PM by adolfo
In Florida, ballots and pollbooks are available to anyone that requests access. There is an hourly fee to pay the clerk that holds the ballots for you since no one else is allowed to touch them.

I don't know anything about Ohio but they should have similar rules (under Public Records Law) that allow the citizen access.
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Lurker321 Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I think the $10 per precinct is only for the "official" recount
if you want to count yourself, I am sure the rates would be hourly, but, according to recountflorida.com it does not take very long to recount a precinct, they managed to recount two in 5 hours.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. "If you find...
a big difference between the recount and the election results, there is your proof. If you don't, all the talk about statistics and exit polls etc. is bunk".

What a pathetic non sequitur!

Don't call DU, they'll call you! But don't hold your breath.

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Lurker321 Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Let me see if I understand you correctly -
you are saying that if the ballots are hand-recounted, and the results do not show significant differences from the official election results, you would still think there was some kind of machine-counting fraud?
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. It is headed by a different organization, nothing to do with BBV.org
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Zeebo Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. Lurker321 is dead on...
For all those asking where is the evidence of fraud, this would be it. There needs to be a recount of suspect precincts in Florida AND Ohio. I can't stress how important this would be to get us a better idea on what happened Nov. 2. Now that we have the ears of some in Congress, we need hard evidence of fraud.

On a similar note, wasn't Blackwell blocking the access to the ballots in Ohio? Is that no longer the case? Anyone have updates on that?
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Lurker321 Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Blackwell was blocking the access to the ballots in Ohio
because according to Ohio law, there is no public access to the election materials during the "canvassing period". Once that is over (and it is now over) according to Ohio law the ballots are accessible by public. You cannot touch the ballots, so you will have to pay for County personnel to handle the ballots in front of you.

The recountflorida.com guys documented counting two precincts, total of around 3000 votes, in 5 hours for the cost of $50.
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tex-wyo-dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Let's not forget about NM (n/t)
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. i did this in dec.
i did a test of our machines here in florida in december..dec 8th i believe it was...i was called by sec chair asking me to be one of 10 people to test random machines .,.we did it as a real voting day..it was for a full day as if it was election day..any problems were filmed..and i did have problems with vote switching on the machine i was on..we had 5 peoplke voting and one person verifying the random pages of votes...they were looking at president, senator and the gambling bill amendment..those were the targets ..although we voted as if there were over and undervotes.. depending on the pre made vote papers..we followed these randomly from piles of papers we were given..there were 5 machines..that were pulled from the wherehouses randomly..

and it was an independant group that was doing this..but i did not know until it hit the papers that bev harris was there early that morning before we testers arrived..i never saw her.
i was simply there because i was asked to participate by our sec chair and dec chair..
i was a trained poll watcher at large for my county and a delegate to the dem convention for kerry..
it was all secret until the test took place.
but i was dismayed that the irregularities and problems that occured during the test were not reported in the media article..they said everything went smooth and no problems , and that was false..as i had problems with my machine from the start..and i signed the papers as well as my verifier signed the votes that we had problems with ..to document the problems..we also videoed the problems when they started...
fly
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. this is the group i worked with in fla
this is the group i worked with in fla for a testing of machines...we had sequoia...

Citizen's Vote Verification Group of Florida
www.CVVG.info
CVVGFla@gmail.com
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Zeebo Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Some questions...
Any more specific information on the problems you witnessed? How many problems were there? What do you mean "it was all secret until the test took place"? Is any of this information posted anywhere?

Thanks.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. well..
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 01:42 PM by flyarm
our sec chair and dec chair asked me not to tell anyone about the test until we did it..thats what i mean about secret they didnt want it to get out until the test took place...they wanted low profile...
and the problems that i experienced..i can not speak for others..but it seemed the biggest problems in the morning were with my machine , which was a demo machine...( but it would be put into action if any machines during day had a malfunction or problem)
the first paper i voted when i turned the random vote paper over was for kerry / castor and i dont remember the rest that was on that paper...but i did the touch screen and touched kerry and bush came up...same with castor ..martinez showed up...
i then asked for a stylist as i have long nails...and i revoted it and same thing..this occured 3 times until kerry and castor registered on the machine...and i then registered the vote...
the second paper i turned over for the vote was again kerry /castor..it took 5 times this time for kerry and castor to register...the third paper i turned over was also kerry/castor..at this point with supervision of lead guy running the test ..the verifier i was working with did the next paper..it was also a kerry castor vote...the verifier was male with no long nails so he attempted to vote the paper..it took i believe 9 times for the kerry /castor vote to register...
with the verifier still doing the next vote..when he turned the next paper over it was a * martinez vote..it went through with no problems!
i worked from early morning till early afternoon as i was leaving next morning on a cruise...so i do not know if there were any problems after i left..but after initial first 3 votes we had no further problems with the machine...but it was all put on video tape and i insisted that myself and the verifier sign the ones we had problems with and we wrote what the problems were on the papers with the problem votes..so it would be recorded..we signed all of the paper votes we had problems with!

we were asked if we would go to court if nessesary..we both gladly agreed to that.if nessesary...i said i would file anything they needed me to.
fly

edited for spelling!
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NationalEnquirer Donating Member (571 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
20. Yup, they've done this in previous years.
They did it with the 2000 election I think.
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indigoblue Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
21. adolfo might have found a smoking gun
Go to: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

And see my post #4.

The data tell you exactly how the vote tallies were manipulated (based on the number of registered democratic voters), and that churches are probably involved.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
22. Florida topic? What is that?
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adolfo Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
24. Precinct recount is over
Thanks for noticing our site.

We recounted 2 precincts in Orange County as a sample and the numbers matched. At the time, our efforts were a bit misguided. We did not have all the precinct data thoroughly reviewed to help steer our recount. I think it was a case of looking in the wrong place.

http://www.recountflorida.com/modules.php?op=modload&na...

Today, things are drastically different. We have compiled a database of precinct results for many Florida counties. The database can be used to pinpoint the problem areas and help others avoid the mistakes we made. It is open for anyone interested in investigating/researching Florida.

http://www.recountflorida.com/ivrs_county.php

As a consequence of developing the database, odd patterns started emerging from our calculated percentages. That is a different matter and it remains under review.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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